Re: Debian Users...

[Micha Feigin]

On Sun, Nov 23, 2003 at 04:48:15PM +0100, tilo kremer wrote:
> > Debian users,
> > -how many of you are running Gnome?
> 
> after having used olwm/olvwm from early 90ies on, i switched to
> enlightenment 2 years ago to shortly afterwards move on to sawfish,
> occasionally w/ gnome.
> 
> main reason for using them was to be able to have overlapping windows
> which DONT get raised when clicked into. many other wm's couldnt do it
> or were a pita to configure.
> 

openbox3 is quite nice. Very configurable and easily so, can do all you
want, and has the nice feature that you can hide the window frame if you
want, so esspecially on small screens if you want to maximize your
editor or terminal to the full you can loose the border and then
maximize (I use that quite extensivly on my 14" laptop).
The problem with it is that it doesn't have an official debian package
yet. There is one at:
deb http://www.hetzi.at/thomas/debian unstable/i386/
deb http://www.hetzi.at/thomas/debian unstable/all/
(I don't think you need the all line but not sure).
For graphics configuration you will need to compile obconf from source,
get it at
www.openbox.org
and the menus have to been done in the text file, but very easy to
configure, and allows for dynamic menus from scripts (you can attached
the output of a script to a menu).
To get debian menus you will need an extra file for the update menus
package, it doesn't come with the package by default for some reason.
Either mail me if you interested of search through the archives, someone
posted it in a thread I started not long ago about lite window managers.

fvwm is also nice. Very light and configurable, but a bit of a hell to
actually configure (the unstable 2.5 version has a themes package that
does quite a good job at giving you some nice basic configurations, but
both are not in the official archives yet, although there are debian
packages).

> just my 5p,
> 
> tilo
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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> 

Re: Debian Users...

[Micha Feigin]

On Fri, Nov 21, 2003 at 05:30:41PM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
> On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 22:39:27 +1100, Russell Coker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: 
> 
> > On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 21:40, Tim Connors
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > wrote:
> >> > Fvwm is cool. It takes a fair bit of configuration, but it's
> >> > fast, small and absolutely bomb-proof in my experience. And
> >> > several of the newer WMs still don't match its features...
> >>
> >> Bulletproof my oath. One thing you *never* *ever* want to segfault
> >> is your window manager. Because if you have been logged in for 60
> >> days, there is a lot of state stored on your desktop[1] that you
> >> don't want lost when the
> 
> > I learnt an interesting trick from a friend at university (Swinburne
> > in fact).  He had his .xinitrc configured such that the window
> > manager would run as a child process, and the process that the X
> > server recognised as the window manager was "sleep 10".
> 
>   here is a better one: I have a Login window instead; my
>  session exits when I exit the login window (I generally neve use it).
> 

There was a logout button that was running by default in my uni a few
years back (when fvwm and twm were all we had) that I think still exists
somewhere that you press to logout, instead of exiting the window
manager. Its easier to remember what it does and what you need to close
to achieve what you want.
look at the logout-button package.

> --
> # Start some shelltools and the window manager
> if test -x /usr/bin/fvwm2; then
> #fvwm2 -f "FvwmM4 -m4prog /usr/bin/m4 .fvwm2rc" &
> /usr/bin/fvwm2 &
> elif [ -x /usr/bin/fvwm ];then /usr/bin/fvwm&
> elif [ -x /usr/bin/X11/twm ]; then /usr/bin/X11/twm &
> fi
>  
> exec uxterm -ut -T login -n login -bg Black -fg LightSteelBlue \
>  -geometry 80x24+10+93 -ls -xrm "*Desk:1"
> --
> 
> 
>   manoj
> -- 
> I think the best way I've heard this put is "Pascal gives you a water
> pistol filled with distilled water.  C not only gives you a loaded
> .357, it points it at your head as a default.  Why do you think Pascal
> is taught in school? And which would you rather have when there was a
> hungry bear in the area?" Jim Harkins ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
> Manoj Srivastava   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
> 1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05  CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E
> 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B  924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C
> 
> 
> -- 
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 

Re: Debian Users...

[Micha Feigin]

On Sun, Nov 23, 2003 at 04:48:15PM +0100, tilo kremer wrote:
> > Debian users,
> > -how many of you are running Gnome?
> 
> after having used olwm/olvwm from early 90ies on, i switched to
> enlightenment 2 years ago to shortly afterwards move on to sawfish,
> occasionally w/ gnome.
> 
> main reason for using them was to be able to have overlapping windows
> which DONT get raised when clicked into. many other wm's couldnt do it
> or were a pita to configure.
> 

openbox3 is quite nice. Very configurable and easily so, can do all you
want, and has the nice feature that you can hide the window frame if you
want, so esspecially on small screens if you want to maximize your
editor or terminal to the full you can loose the border and then
maximize (I use that quite extensivly on my 14" laptop).
The problem with it is that it doesn't have an official debian package
yet. There is one at:
deb http://www.hetzi.at/thomas/debian unstable/i386/
deb http://www.hetzi.at/thomas/debian unstable/all/
(I don't think you need the all line but not sure).
For graphics configuration you will need to compile obconf from source,
get it at
www.openbox.org
and the menus have to been done in the text file, but very easy to
configure, and allows for dynamic menus from scripts (you can attached
the output of a script to a menu).
To get debian menus you will need an extra file for the update menus
package, it doesn't come with the package by default for some reason.
Either mail me if you interested of search through the archives, someone
posted it in a thread I started not long ago about lite window managers.

fvwm is also nice. Very light and configurable, but a bit of a hell to
actually configure (the unstable 2.5 version has a themes package that
does quite a good job at giving you some nice basic configurations, but
both are not in the official archives yet, although there are debian
packages).

> just my 5p,
> 
> tilo
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 


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Re: Debian Users...

[Micha Feigin]

On Fri, Nov 21, 2003 at 05:30:41PM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
> On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 22:39:27 +1100, Russell Coker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: 
> 
> > On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 21:40, Tim Connors
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > wrote:
> >> > Fvwm is cool. It takes a fair bit of configuration, but it's
> >> > fast, small and absolutely bomb-proof in my experience. And
> >> > several of the newer WMs still don't match its features...
> >>
> >> Bulletproof my oath. One thing you *never* *ever* want to segfault
> >> is your window manager. Because if you have been logged in for 60
> >> days, there is a lot of state stored on your desktop[1] that you
> >> don't want lost when the
> 
> > I learnt an interesting trick from a friend at university (Swinburne
> > in fact).  He had his .xinitrc configured such that the window
> > manager would run as a child process, and the process that the X
> > server recognised as the window manager was "sleep 10".
> 
>   here is a better one: I have a Login window instead; my
>  session exits when I exit the login window (I generally neve use it).
> 

There was a logout button that was running by default in my uni a few
years back (when fvwm and twm were all we had) that I think still exists
somewhere that you press to logout, instead of exiting the window
manager. Its easier to remember what it does and what you need to close
to achieve what you want.
look at the logout-button package.

> --
> # Start some shelltools and the window manager
> if test -x /usr/bin/fvwm2; then
> #fvwm2 -f "FvwmM4 -m4prog /usr/bin/m4 .fvwm2rc" &
> /usr/bin/fvwm2 &
> elif [ -x /usr/bin/fvwm ];then /usr/bin/fvwm&
> elif [ -x /usr/bin/X11/twm ]; then /usr/bin/X11/twm &
> fi
>  
> exec uxterm -ut -T login -n login -bg Black -fg LightSteelBlue \
>  -geometry 80x24+10+93 -ls -xrm "*Desk:1"
> --
> 
> 
>   manoj
> -- 
> I think the best way I've heard this put is "Pascal gives you a water
> pistol filled with distilled water.  C not only gives you a loaded
> .357, it points it at your head as a default.  Why do you think Pascal
> is taught in school? And which would you rather have when there was a
> hungry bear in the area?" Jim Harkins ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
> Manoj Srivastava   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
> 1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05  CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E
> 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B  924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C
> 
> 
> -- 
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 


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Re: Debian Users...

[Michael Lake]

tilo kremer wrote:

 > Debian users,
 > -how many of you are running Gnome?

after having used olwm/olvwm from early 90ies on, i switched to
enlightenment 2 years ago to shortly afterwards move on to sawfish,
occasionally w/ gnome.


I switched to enlightenment not so much for the eye candy but because I 
could configure it to behave exactly as I wanted it - particularly 
keystroke wise. It's also fast and I dont use either Gnome or KDE. 
That's make a lean fast laptop of a TiPBook.


Mike
--
Mike Lake
Caver, Linux enthusiast and interested in anything technical.

Re: Debian Users...

[Michael Lake]

tilo kremer wrote:
 > Debian users,
 > -how many of you are running Gnome?
after having used olwm/olvwm from early 90ies on, i switched to
enlightenment 2 years ago to shortly afterwards move on to sawfish,
occasionally w/ gnome.
I switched to enlightenment not so much for the eye candy but because I 
could configure it to behave exactly as I wanted it - particularly 
keystroke wise. It's also fast and I dont use either Gnome or KDE. 
That's make a lean fast laptop of a TiPBook.

Mike
--
Mike Lake
Caver, Linux enthusiast and interested in anything technical.
--
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with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Debian Users...

[Matt . Barry]

About evenly split between GNOME2 (metacity) and ion... I've been 
following GNOME development since the beginning, and I think they've come 
a long way with usability and applications.. and its important to follow 
if you're in IT and trying to make inroads on your organization's 
desktops. :)

But for getting work done without useless bloat/distraction, ion is the 
clear winner for me; I'd love to see a desktop environment focused on the 
UI paradigm that ion uses (no windows) but with more of the bells and 
whistles (and yes, eye candy..  :) that the other "desktops" offer..

Matt

Dutch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 11/18/2003 01:10:52 PM:

> 
> Just sorta takin an informal poll here...
> 
> Debian users,
> -how many of you are running Gnome?
> 
> -how many are running WindowMaker (me)
> 
> -If not WM,then which windowmanager doyou use/prefer?
> 
> (I have and am used to WindowMaker. Was thinking of playing with Gnome
> for a bit.)
> 
> -- 
> David
> 
> Bash > $_
> 
> 
> -- 
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 

Re: Debian Users...

[Matt . Barry]

About evenly split between GNOME2 (metacity) and ion... I've been 
following GNOME development since the beginning, and I think they've come 
a long way with usability and applications.. and its important to follow 
if you're in IT and trying to make inroads on your organization's 
desktops. :)

But for getting work done without useless bloat/distraction, ion is the 
clear winner for me; I'd love to see a desktop environment focused on the 
UI paradigm that ion uses (no windows) but with more of the bells and 
whistles (and yes, eye candy..  :) that the other "desktops" offer..

Matt

Dutch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 11/18/2003 01:10:52 PM:

> 
> Just sorta takin an informal poll here...
> 
> Debian users,
> -how many of you are running Gnome?
> 
> -how many are running WindowMaker (me)
> 
> -If not WM,then which windowmanager doyou use/prefer?
> 
> (I have and am used to WindowMaker. Was thinking of playing with Gnome
> for a bit.)
> 
> -- 
> David
> 
> Bash > $_
> 
> 
> -- 
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 


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Re: Debian Users...

[Manoj Srivastava]

On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 22:39:27 +1100, Russell Coker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: 

> On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 21:40, Tim Connors
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>> > Fvwm is cool. It takes a fair bit of configuration, but it's
>> > fast, small and absolutely bomb-proof in my experience. And
>> > several of the newer WMs still don't match its features...
>>
>> Bulletproof my oath. One thing you *never* *ever* want to segfault
>> is your window manager. Because if you have been logged in for 60
>> days, there is a lot of state stored on your desktop[1] that you
>> don't want lost when the

> I learnt an interesting trick from a friend at university (Swinburne
> in fact).  He had his .xinitrc configured such that the window
> manager would run as a child process, and the process that the X
> server recognised as the window manager was "sleep 10".

here is a better one: I have a Login window instead; my
 session exits when I exit the login window (I generally neve use it).

--
# Start some shelltools and the window manager
if test -x /usr/bin/fvwm2; then
#fvwm2 -f "FvwmM4 -m4prog /usr/bin/m4 .fvwm2rc" &
/usr/bin/fvwm2 &
elif [ -x /usr/bin/fvwm ];then /usr/bin/fvwm&
elif [ -x /usr/bin/X11/twm ]; then /usr/bin/X11/twm &
fi
 
exec uxterm -ut -T login -n login -bg Black -fg LightSteelBlue \
 -geometry 80x24+10+93 -ls -xrm "*Desk:1"
--


manoj
-- 
I think the best way I've heard this put is "Pascal gives you a water
pistol filled with distilled water.  C not only gives you a loaded
.357, it points it at your head as a default.  Why do you think Pascal
is taught in school? And which would you rather have when there was a
hungry bear in the area?" Jim Harkins ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Manoj Srivastava   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05  CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E
1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B  924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C

Re: Debian Users...

[mike dentifrice]

Yves Rutschle said:
> (ok, PWM is good too. Gnome and KDE are essentially the same thing
> IMO.)

I've been using PWM for some time now, and just can't get anything
better. It allows everything to be done via keyboard, is way more
flexible that ion (you can have some windows overlap is you want to,
which I sometimes do :P), is very light and even elegant, very (and
easily) configurable, has tabbed browsing (I think it even introduced
it, before fluxbox made it popular), dock support, EVERYTHING! :)

# apt-get install pwm
or 
$ links http://modeemi.fi/~tuomov/pwm/

You people should, really.

;)

-- 
mike dentifrice <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Re: Debian Users...

[mike dentifrice]

Yves Rutschle said:
> (ok, PWM is good too. Gnome and KDE are essentially the same thing
> IMO.)

I've been using PWM for some time now, and just can't get anything
better. It allows everything to be done via keyboard, is way more
flexible that ion (you can have some windows overlap is you want to,
which I sometimes do :P), is very light and even elegant, very (and
easily) configurable, has tabbed browsing (I think it even introduced
it, before fluxbox made it popular), dock support, EVERYTHING! :)

# apt-get install pwm
or 
$ links http://modeemi.fi/~tuomov/pwm/

You people should, really.

;)

-- 
mike dentifrice <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Re: Debian Users...

[Manoj Srivastava]

On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 22:39:27 +1100, Russell Coker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: 

> On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 21:40, Tim Connors
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>> > Fvwm is cool. It takes a fair bit of configuration, but it's
>> > fast, small and absolutely bomb-proof in my experience. And
>> > several of the newer WMs still don't match its features...
>>
>> Bulletproof my oath. One thing you *never* *ever* want to segfault
>> is your window manager. Because if you have been logged in for 60
>> days, there is a lot of state stored on your desktop[1] that you
>> don't want lost when the

> I learnt an interesting trick from a friend at university (Swinburne
> in fact).  He had his .xinitrc configured such that the window
> manager would run as a child process, and the process that the X
> server recognised as the window manager was "sleep 10".

here is a better one: I have a Login window instead; my
 session exits when I exit the login window (I generally neve use it).

--
# Start some shelltools and the window manager
if test -x /usr/bin/fvwm2; then
#fvwm2 -f "FvwmM4 -m4prog /usr/bin/m4 .fvwm2rc" &
/usr/bin/fvwm2 &
elif [ -x /usr/bin/fvwm ];then /usr/bin/fvwm&
elif [ -x /usr/bin/X11/twm ]; then /usr/bin/X11/twm &
fi
 
exec uxterm -ut -T login -n login -bg Black -fg LightSteelBlue \
 -geometry 80x24+10+93 -ls -xrm "*Desk:1"
--


manoj
-- 
I think the best way I've heard this put is "Pascal gives you a water
pistol filled with distilled water.  C not only gives you a loaded
.357, it points it at your head as a default.  Why do you think Pascal
is taught in school? And which would you rather have when there was a
hungry bear in the area?" Jim Harkins ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Manoj Srivastava   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05  CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E
1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B  924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C


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Re: Debian Users...

[mike dentifrice]

Yves Rutschle said:
> (ok, PWM is good too. Gnome and KDE are essentially the same thing
> IMO.)

I've been using PWM for some time now, and just can't get anything
better. It allows everything to be done via keyboard, is way more
flexible that ion (you can have some windows overlap is you want to,
which I sometimes do :P), is very light and even elegant, very (and
easily) configurable, has tabbed browsing (I think it even introduced
it, before fluxbox made it popular), dock support, EVERYTHING! :)

# apt-get install pwm
or 
$ links http://modeemi.fi/~tuomov/pwm/

You people should, really.

;)

-- 
mike dentifrice <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


-- 
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Re: Debian Users...

[mike dentifrice]

Yves Rutschle said:
> (ok, PWM is good too. Gnome and KDE are essentially the same thing
> IMO.)

I've been using PWM for some time now, and just can't get anything
better. It allows everything to be done via keyboard, is way more
flexible that ion (you can have some windows overlap is you want to,
which I sometimes do :P), is very light and even elegant, very (and
easily) configurable, has tabbed browsing (I think it even introduced
it, before fluxbox made it popular), dock support, EVERYTHING! :)

# apt-get install pwm
or 
$ links http://modeemi.fi/~tuomov/pwm/

You people should, really.

;)

-- 
mike dentifrice <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


-- 
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Re: Debian Users...

[tilo kremer]

> Debian users,
> -how many of you are running Gnome?

after having used olwm/olvwm from early 90ies on, i switched to
enlightenment 2 years ago to shortly afterwards move on to sawfish,
occasionally w/ gnome.

main reason for using them was to be able to have overlapping windows
which DONT get raised when clicked into. many other wm's couldnt do it
or were a pita to configure.

just my 5p,

tilo

Re: Debian Users...

[tilo kremer]

> Debian users,
> -how many of you are running Gnome?
after having used olwm/olvwm from early 90ies on, i switched to
enlightenment 2 years ago to shortly afterwards move on to sawfish,
occasionally w/ gnome.
main reason for using them was to be able to have overlapping windows
which DONT get raised when clicked into. many other wm's couldnt do it
or were a pita to configure.
just my 5p,

tilo



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Re: Debian Users...

[Tim Connors]

On Thu, 20 Nov 2003, Jan T. Kim wrote:

> On Wed, Nov 19, 2003 at 09:35:23PM -0800, Larry Colen wrote:
>
> > I've been using fvwm for years. Now I'm running fvwm2. It has some
> > features I really like and haven't seen easily in other desktops. Also
> > the last time I tried another desktop it was so freaking slow, I
> > couldn't stand it.
>
> I use fvwm2 too. Among the things I like about it is the fact that when
> I get an account on a Linux box, I just have to copy my ~/.fvwm2rc file
> into my new home directory, instead of messing around for an evening or so
> with some "Control Center" or comparable thing in order to try and set up
> my environment.

Someone recently had an article about putting their home directory in CVS.
I'm not quite that fool hardy, but all my pertinent dotfiles are in CVS,
including my ~/.fvwm/.fvwmrc.in (which is very naively transformed to
~/.fvwm/.fvwmrc at login, and whenever I wish to restart fvwm to effect
config changes.

> Another thing which irritates me a lot is that an increasing amount
> of applications fails to handle the standard X options properly, and
> apparently does not properly communicate with the window manager properly
> either. For example, acroread just disregards any -geometry option,
> and it took me a lot of experimentation to finally figure out a special
> setup for the AcroRead class in my .fvwm2rc in which the full screen
> view (which I needed for presentation purposes) works properly.
>
> Is there any initiative of the Debian user community in which petitions
> to software providers, asking them to adhere to the pertinent standards,
> can be signed? I would gladly participate...

I have submitted my share of bug reports. Mainly to small WindowMaker
widgets that I would like to have positioned on the screen using
-geometry. I don't have the specific bug numbers handy, but none of them
have been acknowledged. wmcliphist doesn't even work when it's put into
FvwmButtons - it never registers any mouse-clicks.

(useful tip for FvwmButtons users - have a 12x2 sized buttons, with the
left half taken up by actual buttons, and the right half taken up by
something like:
Exec env SMALLPROMPT=yes xterm -name consolexterm -ls -bg darkblue -fg coral 
-geometry -1500-1500 -wf

In my .bash_profile file, if SMALLPROMPT is set, I do less fancy settings
of my PS1, so less xterm real-estate is taken up by prompts.

The different colours of the xterm, and the fact that it remains on the
screen all the time, independant of which virtual page you are on, makes
it very useful for doing small things like calculations. Screenshot here:
http://astronomy.swin.edu.au/staff/tconnors/screenshot3.png
)

-- 
TimC -- http://astronomy.swin.edu.au/staff/tconnors/
A new verb was accidently created during a discussion about KDE 3 and Debian.
It was said that KDE 3 will sid soon. -- Debian Weekly News Jan 14,2003

Re: Debian Users...

[Tim Connors]

On Thu, 20 Nov 2003, Jan T. Kim wrote:

> On Wed, Nov 19, 2003 at 09:35:23PM -0800, Larry Colen wrote:
>
> > I've been using fvwm for years. Now I'm running fvwm2. It has some
> > features I really like and haven't seen easily in other desktops. Also
> > the last time I tried another desktop it was so freaking slow, I
> > couldn't stand it.
>
> I use fvwm2 too. Among the things I like about it is the fact that when
> I get an account on a Linux box, I just have to copy my ~/.fvwm2rc file
> into my new home directory, instead of messing around for an evening or so
> with some "Control Center" or comparable thing in order to try and set up
> my environment.

Someone recently had an article about putting their home directory in CVS.
I'm not quite that fool hardy, but all my pertinent dotfiles are in CVS,
including my ~/.fvwm/.fvwmrc.in (which is very naively transformed to
~/.fvwm/.fvwmrc at login, and whenever I wish to restart fvwm to effect
config changes.

> Another thing which irritates me a lot is that an increasing amount
> of applications fails to handle the standard X options properly, and
> apparently does not properly communicate with the window manager properly
> either. For example, acroread just disregards any -geometry option,
> and it took me a lot of experimentation to finally figure out a special
> setup for the AcroRead class in my .fvwm2rc in which the full screen
> view (which I needed for presentation purposes) works properly.
>
> Is there any initiative of the Debian user community in which petitions
> to software providers, asking them to adhere to the pertinent standards,
> can be signed? I would gladly participate...

I have submitted my share of bug reports. Mainly to small WindowMaker
widgets that I would like to have positioned on the screen using
-geometry. I don't have the specific bug numbers handy, but none of them
have been acknowledged. wmcliphist doesn't even work when it's put into
FvwmButtons - it never registers any mouse-clicks.

(useful tip for FvwmButtons users - have a 12x2 sized buttons, with the
left half taken up by actual buttons, and the right half taken up by
something like:
Exec env SMALLPROMPT=yes xterm -name consolexterm -ls -bg darkblue -fg coral -geometry 
-1500-1500 -wf

In my .bash_profile file, if SMALLPROMPT is set, I do less fancy settings
of my PS1, so less xterm real-estate is taken up by prompts.

The different colours of the xterm, and the fact that it remains on the
screen all the time, independant of which virtual page you are on, makes
it very useful for doing small things like calculations. Screenshot here:
http://astronomy.swin.edu.au/staff/tconnors/screenshot3.png
)

-- 
TimC -- http://astronomy.swin.edu.au/staff/tconnors/
A new verb was accidently created during a discussion about KDE 3 and Debian.
It was said that KDE 3 will sid soon. -- Debian Weekly News Jan 14,2003


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Re: Debian Users...

[tropez bano]

Dutch wrote:

> 
> Just sorta takin an informal poll here...
> 
> Debian users,
> -how many of you are running Gnome?
> 
> -how many are running WindowMaker (me)
> 
> -If not WM,then which windowmanager doyou use/prefer?
> 
> (I have and am used to WindowMaker. Was thinking of playing with Gnome
> for a bit.)
> 
for me it's Afterstep (I prefer to WM) and before I used to prefer kde more
than gnome.

Tropez

Re: Debian Users...

[tropez bano]

Dutch wrote:

> 
> Just sorta takin an informal poll here...
> 
> Debian users,
> -how many of you are running Gnome?
> 
> -how many are running WindowMaker (me)
> 
> -If not WM,then which windowmanager doyou use/prefer?
> 
> (I have and am used to WindowMaker. Was thinking of playing with Gnome
> for a bit.)
> 
for me it's Afterstep (I prefer to WM) and before I used to prefer kde more
than gnome.

Tropez


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Re: Debian Users...

[Ed Santiago]

  >Just sorta takin an informal poll here...
  > [...]
  >-If not WM,then which windowmanager doyou use/prefer?

tvtwm-pl11.  Released, according to its changelog, 9-Feb-95.  But I've
been using tvtwm, and twm before that, for much longer.  There's not
even a Debian package for tvtwm, so I seem to be raising the offtopicness
of this thread to new levels.

Coincidentally, a few weeks ago I did my biennial see-if-there-are-
any-window-managers-out-there-worth-switching-to odyssey... and no,
there aren't any that fit my minimalist requirements.  fvwm2 is
close, but doesn't have condensed titlebars nor text-only random-
placement icons.  Tsk.

Any uwm users out there?  If not, I claim the Dinosaur Award.

^E
-- 
Ed SantiagoAntediluvian Toolsmith[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Debian Users...

[Micha Feigin]

On Thu, Nov 20, 2003 at 09:40:50PM +1100, Tim Connors wrote:
> On Thu, 20 Nov 2003, Steve McIntyre wrote:
> 
> > On Thu, Nov 20, 2003 at 01:29:27PM +1100, Tim Connors wrote:
> > >
> > >Geez, no fvwm users yet?
> > >(Not that I usually answer these polls)
> > >
> > >Of course, I have a setup I have been happy with for 6 years, so it was
> > >only 6 months back that I decided to upgrade from fvwm1 to 2.
> >
> > Well, quite. I've got a fvwm setup that I've been tuning for ~10
> > years. I made the swap to fvwm2 about 5 years ago. In fact,
> > checking... Yay! my m4-ified fvwm2rc is still in the package as an
> > example. I should probably update that, as by now it probably won't
> > work too well.
> >
> > Fvwm is cool. It takes a fair bit of configuration, but it's fast,
> > small and absolutely bomb-proof in my experience. And several of the
> > newer WMs still don't match its features...
> 
> Bulletproof my oath. One thing you *never* *ever* want to segfault is your
> window manager. Because if you have been logged in for 60 days, there is a
> lot of state stored on your desktop[1] that you don't want lost when the
> WM dies, gives control back to X, and X quits on you. (I saw someone on a
> solaris box with a 250 day uptime, using the same session of fvwm he
> started on the first day (that was when he moved to that site))
> 
> The window manager should be the most reliable peice of software on the
> system next to your kernel, and I can't say too many positive things about
> the reliability of some WM's.
> 
> As it is, I did have the occasional segfault while trialing FVWM 2.5 (the
> unstable tree), and as such made a tiny shell script that continually
> respawns fvwm as long as the exit code is greater than 130, and invoke
> that instead if fvwm in my ~/.xsession
> 
> As for configuration, my personal view is that the default configuration
> for fvwm is crap. Not very poweful and crap. The reason people *think*
> fvwm is crap, is because they never go past the default config. If there
> was a better config straight off, maybe people wouldn't be turned away so
> quickly?

I actually tried fvwm2 and left it because it takes too long to get the
basic configuration right.
I don't mind slowly improving the configuration as things move along and
I see what I really need, but it really helps being able to get
something mostly ok quickly and then learning slowly how to fix it.
Spending two days building a proper configuration just to see if the
window manager fits the bill is too long.
It might be better then a proper basic configuration to have a proper
configuration tool that could twick the menus, hotkeys, some basic look
twicking and enable a hiding pager (on a small screen it can really help
if the pager docks off somewhere and reappear when the mouse is over it).
I tried the dotconfig thingy (Don't remember its exact name) and it was
unusable, never producing a proper configuration.

> 
> 
> [1]In the form of XEmacs buffers and layout, mozilla windows, 1001 xterms,
> login session, etc.
> 
> -- 
> TimC -- http://astronomy.swin.edu.au/staff/tconnors/
> We don't need no education
> We don't need no thought control
>-- Pink Floyd, Another Brick in the Wall
> 
> 
> -- 
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 

Re: Debian Users...

[Ed Santiago]

  >Just sorta takin an informal poll here...
  > [...]
  >-If not WM,then which windowmanager doyou use/prefer?

tvtwm-pl11.  Released, according to its changelog, 9-Feb-95.  But I've
been using tvtwm, and twm before that, for much longer.  There's not
even a Debian package for tvtwm, so I seem to be raising the offtopicness
of this thread to new levels.

Coincidentally, a few weeks ago I did my biennial see-if-there-are-
any-window-managers-out-there-worth-switching-to odyssey... and no,
there aren't any that fit my minimalist requirements.  fvwm2 is
close, but doesn't have condensed titlebars nor text-only random-
placement icons.  Tsk.

Any uwm users out there?  If not, I claim the Dinosaur Award.

^E
-- 
Ed SantiagoAntediluvian Toolsmith[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: Debian Users...

[Micha Feigin]

On Thu, Nov 20, 2003 at 09:40:50PM +1100, Tim Connors wrote:
> On Thu, 20 Nov 2003, Steve McIntyre wrote:
> 
> > On Thu, Nov 20, 2003 at 01:29:27PM +1100, Tim Connors wrote:
> > >
> > >Geez, no fvwm users yet?
> > >(Not that I usually answer these polls)
> > >
> > >Of course, I have a setup I have been happy with for 6 years, so it was
> > >only 6 months back that I decided to upgrade from fvwm1 to 2.
> >
> > Well, quite. I've got a fvwm setup that I've been tuning for ~10
> > years. I made the swap to fvwm2 about 5 years ago. In fact,
> > checking... Yay! my m4-ified fvwm2rc is still in the package as an
> > example. I should probably update that, as by now it probably won't
> > work too well.
> >
> > Fvwm is cool. It takes a fair bit of configuration, but it's fast,
> > small and absolutely bomb-proof in my experience. And several of the
> > newer WMs still don't match its features...
> 
> Bulletproof my oath. One thing you *never* *ever* want to segfault is your
> window manager. Because if you have been logged in for 60 days, there is a
> lot of state stored on your desktop[1] that you don't want lost when the
> WM dies, gives control back to X, and X quits on you. (I saw someone on a
> solaris box with a 250 day uptime, using the same session of fvwm he
> started on the first day (that was when he moved to that site))
> 
> The window manager should be the most reliable peice of software on the
> system next to your kernel, and I can't say too many positive things about
> the reliability of some WM's.
> 
> As it is, I did have the occasional segfault while trialing FVWM 2.5 (the
> unstable tree), and as such made a tiny shell script that continually
> respawns fvwm as long as the exit code is greater than 130, and invoke
> that instead if fvwm in my ~/.xsession
> 
> As for configuration, my personal view is that the default configuration
> for fvwm is crap. Not very poweful and crap. The reason people *think*
> fvwm is crap, is because they never go past the default config. If there
> was a better config straight off, maybe people wouldn't be turned away so
> quickly?

I actually tried fvwm2 and left it because it takes too long to get the
basic configuration right.
I don't mind slowly improving the configuration as things move along and
I see what I really need, but it really helps being able to get
something mostly ok quickly and then learning slowly how to fix it.
Spending two days building a proper configuration just to see if the
window manager fits the bill is too long.
It might be better then a proper basic configuration to have a proper
configuration tool that could twick the menus, hotkeys, some basic look
twicking and enable a hiding pager (on a small screen it can really help
if the pager docks off somewhere and reappear when the mouse is over it).
I tried the dotconfig thingy (Don't remember its exact name) and it was
unusable, never producing a proper configuration.

> 
> 
> [1]In the form of XEmacs buffers and layout, mozilla windows, 1001 xterms,
> login session, etc.
> 
> -- 
> TimC -- http://astronomy.swin.edu.au/staff/tconnors/
> We don't need no education
> We don't need no thought control
>-- Pink Floyd, Another Brick in the Wall
> 
> 
> -- 
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 


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Re: Debian Users...

[Jan T. Kim]

On Wed, Nov 19, 2003 at 09:35:23PM -0800, Larry Colen wrote:

> I've been using fvwm for years. Now I'm running fvwm2. It has some
> features I really like and haven't seen easily in other desktops. Also
> the last time I tried another desktop it was so freaking slow, I
> couldn't stand it.

I use fvwm2 too. Among the things I like about it is the fact that when
I get an account on a Linux box, I just have to copy my ~/.fvwm2rc file
into my new home directory, instead of messing around for an evening or so
with some "Control Center" or comparable thing in order to try and set up
my environment.

Personally, I strongly dislike those desktop systems because of their
foolish handling of iconification -- frequently, iconification doesn't
even render any icons anymore, and buttons or meny entries are produced
in some desktop-specific gadget. (Can anyone explain why that is??)

Another thing which irritates me a lot is that an increasing amount
of applications fails to handle the standard X options properly, and
apparently does not properly communicate with the window manager properly
either. For example, acroread just disregards any -geometry option,
and it took me a lot of experimentation to finally figure out a special
setup for the AcroRead class in my .fvwm2rc in which the full screen
view (which I needed for presentation purposes) works properly.

Is there any initiative of the Debian user community in which petitions
to software providers, asking them to adhere to the pertinent standards,
can be signed? I would gladly participate...

Greetings, Jan
-- 
 +- Jan T. Kim ---+
 |*NEW*email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]  |
 |*NEW*WWW:   http://www.inb.uni-luebeck.de/staff/kim.html|
 *-=<  hierarchical systems are for files, not for humans  >=-*

Re: Debian Users...

[Jan T. Kim]

On Wed, Nov 19, 2003 at 09:35:23PM -0800, Larry Colen wrote:

> I've been using fvwm for years. Now I'm running fvwm2. It has some
> features I really like and haven't seen easily in other desktops. Also
> the last time I tried another desktop it was so freaking slow, I
> couldn't stand it.

I use fvwm2 too. Among the things I like about it is the fact that when
I get an account on a Linux box, I just have to copy my ~/.fvwm2rc file
into my new home directory, instead of messing around for an evening or so
with some "Control Center" or comparable thing in order to try and set up
my environment.

Personally, I strongly dislike those desktop systems because of their
foolish handling of iconification -- frequently, iconification doesn't
even render any icons anymore, and buttons or meny entries are produced
in some desktop-specific gadget. (Can anyone explain why that is??)

Another thing which irritates me a lot is that an increasing amount
of applications fails to handle the standard X options properly, and
apparently does not properly communicate with the window manager properly
either. For example, acroread just disregards any -geometry option,
and it took me a lot of experimentation to finally figure out a special
setup for the AcroRead class in my .fvwm2rc in which the full screen
view (which I needed for presentation purposes) works properly.

Is there any initiative of the Debian user community in which petitions
to software providers, asking them to adhere to the pertinent standards,
can be signed? I would gladly participate...

Greetings, Jan
-- 
 +- Jan T. Kim ---+
 |*NEW*email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]  |
 |*NEW*WWW:   http://www.inb.uni-luebeck.de/staff/kim.html|
 *-=<  hierarchical systems are for files, not for humans  >=-*


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Re: Debian Users...

[Tim Connors]

On Thu, 20 Nov 2003, Russell Coker wrote:

> On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 21:40, Tim Connors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > > Fvwm is cool. It takes a fair bit of configuration, but it's fast,
> > > small and absolutely bomb-proof in my experience. And several of the
> > > newer WMs still don't match its features...
> >
> > Bulletproof my oath. One thing you *never* *ever* want to segfault is your
> > window manager. Because if you have been logged in for 60 days, there is a
> > lot of state stored on your desktop[1] that you don't want lost when the
>
> I learnt an interesting trick from a friend at university (Swinburne in fact).
> He had his .xinitrc configured such that the window manager would run as a
> child process, and the process that the X server recognised as the window
> manager was "sleep 10".  That way he could restart his window manager
> while remaining logged in, and if the window manager crashed it was no big
> deal.  /bin/sleep is extremely unlikely to crash...

That would suck to lose all that if you forgot after 31 years about your
hack.

:)


I also have a habit of running killall sleep, so I'd have to make a
symlink to sleep called
"/bin/\ Really\ don\'t\ kill\ this\ copy\ of\ sleep,\ you\'ll\ regret\
it\ \(think\ about\ the\ uptime\!\)."


Sigh, this is so offtopic :)

-- 
TimC -- http://astronomy.swin.edu.au/staff/tconnors/
"It took people a long time to figure out which machine was [mooing],
and even longer to figure out how.  But for some reason it didn't take
them any time at all to figure that I'd done it."  -- Paul Tomblin on ASR

Re: Debian Users...

[Juergen Stuber]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Ryan M. Golbeck) writes:
> Yves Rutschle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>> On Tue, Nov 18, 2003 at 01:10:52PM -0500, Dutch wrote:
>>
>> 
>> ION, the only WM that has actually invented something since
>> 1978 (more or less) and rids window managing of its most
>> irritating aspects (which are equally found in WindowMaker,
>> KDE, Gnome, MacOS and Windows).

So it doesn't have popup widows (= most annoying aspect IMHO)?

I guess you should be more specific.

> As for which one came up with the idea, I think it's arguable.

Tiling is really old, MSWindows 1.0 and IIRC GEM had it in the eighties.


Jürgen "ctwm user since 1992"

-- 
Jürgen Stuber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
http://www.loria.fr/~stuber/

> rot 13 "fr"
"se"

Re: Debian Users...

[Russell Coker]

On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 21:40, Tim Connors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> > Fvwm is cool. It takes a fair bit of configuration, but it's fast,
> > small and absolutely bomb-proof in my experience. And several of the
> > newer WMs still don't match its features...
>
> Bulletproof my oath. One thing you *never* *ever* want to segfault is your
> window manager. Because if you have been logged in for 60 days, there is a
> lot of state stored on your desktop[1] that you don't want lost when the

I learnt an interesting trick from a friend at university (Swinburne in fact).  
He had his .xinitrc configured such that the window manager would run as a 
child process, and the process that the X server recognised as the window 
manager was "sleep 10".  That way he could restart his window manager 
while remaining logged in, and if the window manager crashed it was no big 
deal.  /bin/sleep is extremely unlikely to crash...

If you have problems with the reliability of your window manager or if you 
want to change window managers on the fly then using the same trick would be 
a good idea.

-- 
http://www.coker.com.au/selinux/   My NSA Security Enhanced Linux packages
http://www.coker.com.au/bonnie++/  Bonnie++ hard drive benchmark
http://www.coker.com.au/postal/Postal SMTP/POP benchmark
http://www.coker.com.au/~russell/  My home page

Re: Debian Users...

[Vivek]

> Fvwm is cool. It takes a fair bit of configuration, but it's fast,
> small and absolutely bomb-proof in my experience. And several of the
> newer WMs still don't match its features...

Yes, I agree - I've had my setup for years, and no other wm has offered
enough yet to pry me away from "the way I work"(tm). But I guess it's not
really for those who don't want to dive in there adapt it to themselves,
rather then the other way round.

Re: Debian Users...

[Tim Connors]

On Thu, 20 Nov 2003, Russell Coker wrote:

> On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 21:40, Tim Connors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > > Fvwm is cool. It takes a fair bit of configuration, but it's fast,
> > > small and absolutely bomb-proof in my experience. And several of the
> > > newer WMs still don't match its features...
> >
> > Bulletproof my oath. One thing you *never* *ever* want to segfault is your
> > window manager. Because if you have been logged in for 60 days, there is a
> > lot of state stored on your desktop[1] that you don't want lost when the
>
> I learnt an interesting trick from a friend at university (Swinburne in fact).
> He had his .xinitrc configured such that the window manager would run as a
> child process, and the process that the X server recognised as the window
> manager was "sleep 10".  That way he could restart his window manager
> while remaining logged in, and if the window manager crashed it was no big
> deal.  /bin/sleep is extremely unlikely to crash...

That would suck to lose all that if you forgot after 31 years about your
hack.

:)


I also have a habit of running killall sleep, so I'd have to make a
symlink to sleep called
"/bin/\ Really\ don\'t\ kill\ this\ copy\ of\ sleep,\ you\'ll\ regret\
it\ \(think\ about\ the\ uptime\!\)."


Sigh, this is so offtopic :)

-- 
TimC -- http://astronomy.swin.edu.au/staff/tconnors/
"It took people a long time to figure out which machine was [mooing],
and even longer to figure out how.  But for some reason it didn't take
them any time at all to figure that I'd done it."  -- Paul Tomblin on ASR


-- 
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Re: Debian Users...

[Juergen Stuber]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Ryan M. Golbeck) writes:
> Yves Rutschle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>> On Tue, Nov 18, 2003 at 01:10:52PM -0500, Dutch wrote:
>>
>> 
>> ION, the only WM that has actually invented something since
>> 1978 (more or less) and rids window managing of its most
>> irritating aspects (which are equally found in WindowMaker,
>> KDE, Gnome, MacOS and Windows).

So it doesn't have popup widows (= most annoying aspect IMHO)?

I guess you should be more specific.

> As for which one came up with the idea, I think it's arguable.

Tiling is really old, MSWindows 1.0 and IIRC GEM had it in the eighties.


Jürgen "ctwm user since 1992"

-- 
Jürgen Stuber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
http://www.loria.fr/~stuber/

> rot 13 "fr"
"se"


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Re: Debian Users...

[Russell Coker]

On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 21:40, Tim Connors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> > Fvwm is cool. It takes a fair bit of configuration, but it's fast,
> > small and absolutely bomb-proof in my experience. And several of the
> > newer WMs still don't match its features...
>
> Bulletproof my oath. One thing you *never* *ever* want to segfault is your
> window manager. Because if you have been logged in for 60 days, there is a
> lot of state stored on your desktop[1] that you don't want lost when the

I learnt an interesting trick from a friend at university (Swinburne in fact).  
He had his .xinitrc configured such that the window manager would run as a 
child process, and the process that the X server recognised as the window 
manager was "sleep 10".  That way he could restart his window manager 
while remaining logged in, and if the window manager crashed it was no big 
deal.  /bin/sleep is extremely unlikely to crash...

If you have problems with the reliability of your window manager or if you 
want to change window managers on the fly then using the same trick would be 
a good idea.

-- 
http://www.coker.com.au/selinux/   My NSA Security Enhanced Linux packages
http://www.coker.com.au/bonnie++/  Bonnie++ hard drive benchmark
http://www.coker.com.au/postal/Postal SMTP/POP benchmark
http://www.coker.com.au/~russell/  My home page


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Re: Debian Users...

[Steve McIntyre]

On Thu, Nov 20, 2003 at 01:29:27PM +1100, Tim Connors wrote:
>
>Geez, no fvwm users yet?
>(Not that I usually answer these polls)
>
>Of course, I have a setup I have been happy with for 6 years, so it was
>only 6 months back that I decided to upgrade from fvwm1 to 2.

Well, quite. I've got a fvwm setup that I've been tuning for ~10
years. I made the swap to fvwm2 about 5 years ago. In fact,
checking... Yay! my m4-ified fvwm2rc is still in the package as an
example. I should probably update that, as by now it probably won't
work too well.

Fvwm is cool. It takes a fair bit of configuration, but it's fast,
small and absolutely bomb-proof in my experience. And several of the
newer WMs still don't match its features...

-- 
Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Support the Campaign for Audiovisual Free Expression: http://www.eff.org/cafe/


pgp4ONZRluKq3.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: Debian Users...

[Tim Connors]

On Thu, 20 Nov 2003, Steve McIntyre wrote:

> On Thu, Nov 20, 2003 at 01:29:27PM +1100, Tim Connors wrote:
> >
> >Geez, no fvwm users yet?
> >(Not that I usually answer these polls)
> >
> >Of course, I have a setup I have been happy with for 6 years, so it was
> >only 6 months back that I decided to upgrade from fvwm1 to 2.
>
> Well, quite. I've got a fvwm setup that I've been tuning for ~10
> years. I made the swap to fvwm2 about 5 years ago. In fact,
> checking... Yay! my m4-ified fvwm2rc is still in the package as an
> example. I should probably update that, as by now it probably won't
> work too well.
>
> Fvwm is cool. It takes a fair bit of configuration, but it's fast,
> small and absolutely bomb-proof in my experience. And several of the
> newer WMs still don't match its features...

Bulletproof my oath. One thing you *never* *ever* want to segfault is your
window manager. Because if you have been logged in for 60 days, there is a
lot of state stored on your desktop[1] that you don't want lost when the
WM dies, gives control back to X, and X quits on you. (I saw someone on a
solaris box with a 250 day uptime, using the same session of fvwm he
started on the first day (that was when he moved to that site))

The window manager should be the most reliable peice of software on the
system next to your kernel, and I can't say too many positive things about
the reliability of some WM's.

As it is, I did have the occasional segfault while trialing FVWM 2.5 (the
unstable tree), and as such made a tiny shell script that continually
respawns fvwm as long as the exit code is greater than 130, and invoke
that instead if fvwm in my ~/.xsession

As for configuration, my personal view is that the default configuration
for fvwm is crap. Not very poweful and crap. The reason people *think*
fvwm is crap, is because they never go past the default config. If there
was a better config straight off, maybe people wouldn't be turned away so
quickly?


[1]In the form of XEmacs buffers and layout, mozilla windows, 1001 xterms,
login session, etc.

-- 
TimC -- http://astronomy.swin.edu.au/staff/tconnors/
We don't need no education
We don't need no thought control
   -- Pink Floyd, Another Brick in the Wall

Re: Debian Users...

[Vivek]

> Fvwm is cool. It takes a fair bit of configuration, but it's fast,
> small and absolutely bomb-proof in my experience. And several of the
> newer WMs still don't match its features...

Yes, I agree - I've had my setup for years, and no other wm has offered
enough yet to pry me away from "the way I work"(tm). But I guess it's not
really for those who don't want to dive in there adapt it to themselves,
rather then the other way round.



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Re: Debian Users...

[Steve McIntyre]

On Thu, Nov 20, 2003 at 01:29:27PM +1100, Tim Connors wrote:
>
>Geez, no fvwm users yet?
>(Not that I usually answer these polls)
>
>Of course, I have a setup I have been happy with for 6 years, so it was
>only 6 months back that I decided to upgrade from fvwm1 to 2.

Well, quite. I've got a fvwm setup that I've been tuning for ~10
years. I made the swap to fvwm2 about 5 years ago. In fact,
checking... Yay! my m4-ified fvwm2rc is still in the package as an
example. I should probably update that, as by now it probably won't
work too well.

Fvwm is cool. It takes a fair bit of configuration, but it's fast,
small and absolutely bomb-proof in my experience. And several of the
newer WMs still don't match its features...

-- 
Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Support the Campaign for Audiovisual Free Expression: http://www.eff.org/cafe/


pgp0.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: Debian Users...

[Tim Connors]

On Thu, 20 Nov 2003, Steve McIntyre wrote:

> On Thu, Nov 20, 2003 at 01:29:27PM +1100, Tim Connors wrote:
> >
> >Geez, no fvwm users yet?
> >(Not that I usually answer these polls)
> >
> >Of course, I have a setup I have been happy with for 6 years, so it was
> >only 6 months back that I decided to upgrade from fvwm1 to 2.
>
> Well, quite. I've got a fvwm setup that I've been tuning for ~10
> years. I made the swap to fvwm2 about 5 years ago. In fact,
> checking... Yay! my m4-ified fvwm2rc is still in the package as an
> example. I should probably update that, as by now it probably won't
> work too well.
>
> Fvwm is cool. It takes a fair bit of configuration, but it's fast,
> small and absolutely bomb-proof in my experience. And several of the
> newer WMs still don't match its features...

Bulletproof my oath. One thing you *never* *ever* want to segfault is your
window manager. Because if you have been logged in for 60 days, there is a
lot of state stored on your desktop[1] that you don't want lost when the
WM dies, gives control back to X, and X quits on you. (I saw someone on a
solaris box with a 250 day uptime, using the same session of fvwm he
started on the first day (that was when he moved to that site))

The window manager should be the most reliable peice of software on the
system next to your kernel, and I can't say too many positive things about
the reliability of some WM's.

As it is, I did have the occasional segfault while trialing FVWM 2.5 (the
unstable tree), and as such made a tiny shell script that continually
respawns fvwm as long as the exit code is greater than 130, and invoke
that instead if fvwm in my ~/.xsession

As for configuration, my personal view is that the default configuration
for fvwm is crap. Not very poweful and crap. The reason people *think*
fvwm is crap, is because they never go past the default config. If there
was a better config straight off, maybe people wouldn't be turned away so
quickly?


[1]In the form of XEmacs buffers and layout, mozilla windows, 1001 xterms,
login session, etc.

-- 
TimC -- http://astronomy.swin.edu.au/staff/tconnors/
We don't need no education
We don't need no thought control
   -- Pink Floyd, Another Brick in the Wall


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Re: Debian Users...

[Micha Feigin]

On Tue, Nov 18, 2003 at 12:04:03PM -0800, Tom Ballard wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 18, 2003 at 01:49:55PM -0600, Alex Malinovich wrote:
> > On Tue, 2003-11-18 at 12:10, Dutch wrote:
> > > Just sorta takin an informal poll here...
> > > 
> > > Debian users,
> > > -how many of you are running Gnome?
> > > 
> > > -how many are running WindowMaker (me)
> > > 
> > > -If not WM,then which windowmanager doyou use/prefer?
> > > 
> > > (I have and am used to WindowMaker. Was thinking of playing with Gnome
> > > for a bit.)
> > 
> > Gnome using metacity for a wm
> 
> I run fluxbox, but I have kcontrol and gnome-control-center installed, 
> and run kdeinit and gnome-control-center in my xinitrc, which starts the 

I think all you need is gnome-settings-daemon not gnome-control-center,
although thats a big cost in memory.

> worker processes so that Gnome and KDE apps think they're running in the 
> real thing, with all the settings, themes, &c.
> 
> [KDE apps will do that anyway but there will be delay while kdeinit 
> starts when you run the first one]
> 
> I like to think I have it all.
> 
> 
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Re: Debian Users...

[Larry Colen]

Been to busy with work, didn't see this.

I've been using fvwm for years. Now I'm running fvwm2. It has some
features I really like and haven't seen easily in other desktops. Also
the last time I tried another desktop it was so freaking slow, I
couldn't stand it.

Since I've been going through UI learning pangs on my new powerbook,
I've been thinking of giving another desktop a try when I rebuild my
desktop that just melted down.

On Thu, Nov 20, 2003 at 01:29:27PM +1100, Tim Connors wrote:
> On Tue, 18 Nov 2003, Dutch wrote:
> 
> >
> > Just sorta takin an informal poll here...
> >
> > Debian users,
> > -how many of you are running Gnome?
> >
> > -how many are running WindowMaker (me)
> >
> > -If not WM,then which windowmanager doyou use/prefer?
> 
> Geez, no fvwm users yet?
> (Not that I usually answer these polls)
> 
> Of course, I have a setup I have been happy with for 6 years, so it was
> only 6 months back that I decided to upgrade from fvwm1 to 2.
> 
> 
> -- 
> TimC -- http://astronomy.swin.edu.au/staff/tconnors/
> I'm not a procrastinator! I'm temporally challenged!
> 
> 
> -- 
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listen to. Oldies stations that play the "new" music I used to complain about.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.red4est.com/lrc

Re: Debian Users...

[Larry Colen]

Been to busy with work, didn't see this.

I've been using fvwm for years. Now I'm running fvwm2. It has some
features I really like and haven't seen easily in other desktops. Also
the last time I tried another desktop it was so freaking slow, I
couldn't stand it.

Since I've been going through UI learning pangs on my new powerbook,
I've been thinking of giving another desktop a try when I rebuild my
desktop that just melted down.

On Thu, Nov 20, 2003 at 01:29:27PM +1100, Tim Connors wrote:
> On Tue, 18 Nov 2003, Dutch wrote:
> 
> >
> > Just sorta takin an informal poll here...
> >
> > Debian users,
> > -how many of you are running Gnome?
> >
> > -how many are running WindowMaker (me)
> >
> > -If not WM,then which windowmanager doyou use/prefer?
> 
> Geez, no fvwm users yet?
> (Not that I usually answer these polls)
> 
> Of course, I have a setup I have been happy with for 6 years, so it was
> only 6 months back that I decided to upgrade from fvwm1 to 2.
> 
> 
> -- 
> TimC -- http://astronomy.swin.edu.au/staff/tconnors/
> I'm not a procrastinator! I'm temporally challenged!
> 
> 
> -- 
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

-- 
I've found something worse than oldies station that play the music I used to
listen to. Oldies stations that play the "new" music I used to complain about.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.red4est.com/lrc


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Re: Debian Users...

[Micha Feigin]

On Tue, Nov 18, 2003 at 12:04:03PM -0800, Tom Ballard wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 18, 2003 at 01:49:55PM -0600, Alex Malinovich wrote:
> > On Tue, 2003-11-18 at 12:10, Dutch wrote:
> > > Just sorta takin an informal poll here...
> > > 
> > > Debian users,
> > > -how many of you are running Gnome?
> > > 
> > > -how many are running WindowMaker (me)
> > > 
> > > -If not WM,then which windowmanager doyou use/prefer?
> > > 
> > > (I have and am used to WindowMaker. Was thinking of playing with Gnome
> > > for a bit.)
> > 
> > Gnome using metacity for a wm
> 
> I run fluxbox, but I have kcontrol and gnome-control-center installed, 
> and run kdeinit and gnome-control-center in my xinitrc, which starts the 

I think all you need is gnome-settings-daemon not gnome-control-center,
although thats a big cost in memory.

> worker processes so that Gnome and KDE apps think they're running in the 
> real thing, with all the settings, themes, &c.
> 
> [KDE apps will do that anyway but there will be delay while kdeinit 
> starts when you run the first one]
> 
> I like to think I have it all.
> 
> 
> -- 
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 

Re: Debian Users...

[Tim Connors]

On Tue, 18 Nov 2003, Dutch wrote:

>
> Just sorta takin an informal poll here...
>
> Debian users,
> -how many of you are running Gnome?
>
> -how many are running WindowMaker (me)
>
> -If not WM,then which windowmanager doyou use/prefer?

Geez, no fvwm users yet?
(Not that I usually answer these polls)

Of course, I have a setup I have been happy with for 6 years, so it was
only 6 months back that I decided to upgrade from fvwm1 to 2.


-- 
TimC -- http://astronomy.swin.edu.au/staff/tconnors/
I'm not a procrastinator! I'm temporally challenged!


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Re: Debian Users...

[Tim Connors]

On Tue, 18 Nov 2003, Dutch wrote:

>
> Just sorta takin an informal poll here...
>
> Debian users,
> -how many of you are running Gnome?
>
> -how many are running WindowMaker (me)
>
> -If not WM,then which windowmanager doyou use/prefer?

Geez, no fvwm users yet?
(Not that I usually answer these polls)

Of course, I have a setup I have been happy with for 6 years, so it was
only 6 months back that I decided to upgrade from fvwm1 to 2.


-- 
TimC -- http://astronomy.swin.edu.au/staff/tconnors/
I'm not a procrastinator! I'm temporally challenged!

Re: Debian Users...

[Jeff]

Russell Coker, 2003-Nov-20 04:14 +1100:
> On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 04:00, Caoilte O'Connor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > doesn't fam engage in periodic disk access? i certainly get
> > a lot less when not using kde despite having 256M RAM.
> 
> I was under the impression that the sole point of FAM was to avoid disk 
> access, it should use the kernel dnotify interface for this.  But even if it 
> was to repeatedly read a directory this would only cause disk access if you 
> didn't use the mount option "noatime" (which every laptop user should use).
> 
> I have 384M of RAM and swap still gets used when running KDE.
> 
> KDE uses lots of CPU time in many instances, loads big executables from disk 
> with lots of shared objects, and uses plenty of memory which causes swapping.
> All these things decrease battery life.  Use text mode if you want to get 
> maximum batter life.

I got rid of fam altogether.  I didn't feel it was providing enough
benefit to have it running on my laptop.  KDE is doing just fine
without it.

I have 512MB of RAM and shut down swap.  I got tired of all the
swapping.  This is working very nicely for me.  Even with two VMware
machines running and a few documents open in OpenOffice1.1.0, it still
only uses less than 40% of RAM.

KDE 3.1.4 runs quite fast on my PIII 1.2 Dell Latitude C610 and the
battery time is respectable at a couple hours with one battery in it.

jc

-- 
Jeff CoppockSystems Engineer
Diggin' Debian  Admin and User

Re: Debian Users...

[Jeff]

Russell Coker, 2003-Nov-20 04:14 +1100:
> On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 04:00, Caoilte O'Connor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > doesn't fam engage in periodic disk access? i certainly get
> > a lot less when not using kde despite having 256M RAM.
> 
> I was under the impression that the sole point of FAM was to avoid disk 
> access, it should use the kernel dnotify interface for this.  But even if it 
> was to repeatedly read a directory this would only cause disk access if you 
> didn't use the mount option "noatime" (which every laptop user should use).
> 
> I have 384M of RAM and swap still gets used when running KDE.
> 
> KDE uses lots of CPU time in many instances, loads big executables from disk 
> with lots of shared objects, and uses plenty of memory which causes swapping.
> All these things decrease battery life.  Use text mode if you want to get 
> maximum batter life.

I got rid of fam altogether.  I didn't feel it was providing enough
benefit to have it running on my laptop.  KDE is doing just fine
without it.

I have 512MB of RAM and shut down swap.  I got tired of all the
swapping.  This is working very nicely for me.  Even with two VMware
machines running and a few documents open in OpenOffice1.1.0, it still
only uses less than 40% of RAM.

KDE 3.1.4 runs quite fast on my PIII 1.2 Dell Latitude C610 and the
battery time is respectable at a couple hours with one battery in it.

jc

-- 
Jeff CoppockSystems Engineer
Diggin' Debian  Admin and User


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RE: Debian Users...

[DePriest, Jason R.]

> -Original Message-
> From: Anders Ellenshøj Andersen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2003 1:32 PM
> To: debian-laptop@lists.debian.org
> Subject: Re: Debian Users...
> 
> 
> On Wednesday 19 November 2003 19:58, Micha Feigin wrote:
> 
> > All the eye candy stresses the cpu and there are some 
> background daemons
> > that stress both the cpu and fire up the hardrive (although 
> linux does
> > that anyway every about 30 secs especially with journaled 
> file systems)
> > All this takes battery power (how much depends on your cpu 
> and setup).
> 
> Have anybody actually seen any hard measurements on this? I 
> am not gonna 
> compare desktops because I like KDE. I don't think that it performs 
> significantly worse than other wms battery wise.
> 
> Anders
> 
> -- 
> This email was generated using KMail from KDE 3.1.4 on Debian 
> GNU/Linux
> 

While KDE was specifically mentioned, I don't think anyone is implying that any 
other Window Manager magically doesn't use more CPU/RAM than a plain old 
console.

I use IceWM on my puny old laptops ~because~ it has very few bells and whistles.

Logic can be used to discern that having more active applications running at 
any one time will use more resources and therefore lower battery life.
It does not matter if the additional applications are part of your desktop or 
window manager or a cron job to delete temp files or old logs.  They all use 
more resources than just editing a file with vi or something.

-Jason

Re: Debian Users...

[Anders Ellenshøj Andersen]

On Wednesday 19 November 2003 19:58, Micha Feigin wrote:

> All the eye candy stresses the cpu and there are some background daemons
> that stress both the cpu and fire up the hardrive (although linux does
> that anyway every about 30 secs especially with journaled file systems)
> All this takes battery power (how much depends on your cpu and setup).

Have anybody actually seen any hard measurements on this? I am not gonna 
compare desktops because I like KDE. I don't think that it performs 
significantly worse than other wms battery wise.

Anders

-- 
This email was generated using KMail from KDE 3.1.4 on Debian GNU/Linux

Re: Debian Users...

[Micha Feigin]

On Wed, Nov 19, 2003 at 05:43:27PM +0100, Anders Ellensh?j Andersen wrote:
> On Wednesday 19 November 2003 13:41, Caoilte O'Connor wrote:
> 
> > who could face loading all of KDE when running on batteries.
> > yuck.
> 
> Excuse me but how can using KDE impact your battery life?
> 

All the eye candy stresses the cpu and there are some background daemons
that stress both the cpu and fire up the hardrive (although linux does
that anyway every about 30 secs especially with journaled file systems)
All this takes battery power (how much depends on your cpu and setup).

> Anders
> 
> -- 
> This email was generated using KMail from KDE 3.1.4 on Debian GNU/Linux
> 
> 
> -- 
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 

RE: Debian Users...

[DePriest, Jason R.]

> -Original Message-
> From: Anders Ellenshøj Andersen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2003 1:32 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Debian Users...
> 
> 
> On Wednesday 19 November 2003 19:58, Micha Feigin wrote:
> 
> > All the eye candy stresses the cpu and there are some 
> background daemons
> > that stress both the cpu and fire up the hardrive (although 
> linux does
> > that anyway every about 30 secs especially with journaled 
> file systems)
> > All this takes battery power (how much depends on your cpu 
> and setup).
> 
> Have anybody actually seen any hard measurements on this? I 
> am not gonna 
> compare desktops because I like KDE. I don't think that it performs 
> significantly worse than other wms battery wise.
> 
> Anders
> 
> -- 
> This email was generated using KMail from KDE 3.1.4 on Debian 
> GNU/Linux
> 

While KDE was specifically mentioned, I don't think anyone is implying that any other 
Window Manager magically doesn't use more CPU/RAM than a plain old console.

I use IceWM on my puny old laptops ~because~ it has very few bells and whistles.

Logic can be used to discern that having more active applications running at any one 
time will use more resources and therefore lower battery life.
It does not matter if the additional applications are part of your desktop or window 
manager or a cron job to delete temp files or old logs.  They all use more resources 
than just editing a file with vi or something.

-Jason


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Re: Debian Users...

[Anders Ellenshøj Andersen]

On Wednesday 19 November 2003 19:58, Micha Feigin wrote:

> All the eye candy stresses the cpu and there are some background daemons
> that stress both the cpu and fire up the hardrive (although linux does
> that anyway every about 30 secs especially with journaled file systems)
> All this takes battery power (how much depends on your cpu and setup).

Have anybody actually seen any hard measurements on this? I am not gonna 
compare desktops because I like KDE. I don't think that it performs 
significantly worse than other wms battery wise.

Anders

-- 
This email was generated using KMail from KDE 3.1.4 on Debian GNU/Linux


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Re: Debian Users...

[Micha Feigin]

On Wed, Nov 19, 2003 at 05:43:27PM +0100, Anders Ellensh?j Andersen wrote:
> On Wednesday 19 November 2003 13:41, Caoilte O'Connor wrote:
> 
> > who could face loading all of KDE when running on batteries.
> > yuck.
> 
> Excuse me but how can using KDE impact your battery life?
> 

All the eye candy stresses the cpu and there are some background daemons
that stress both the cpu and fire up the hardrive (although linux does
that anyway every about 30 secs especially with journaled file systems)
All this takes battery power (how much depends on your cpu and setup).

> Anders
> 
> -- 
> This email was generated using KMail from KDE 3.1.4 on Debian GNU/Linux
> 
> 
> -- 
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 


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Re: Debian Users...

[Yves Rutschle]

On Wed, Nov 19, 2003 at 05:43:27PM +0100, Anders Ellenshøj Andersen wrote:
> > who could face loading all of KDE when running on batteries.
> > yuck.
> 
> Excuse me but how can using KDE impact your battery life?

Well, CPU cycles are expensive battery-wise (it's more expensive to do
"something" than idle), so the lighter the application the
better for battery life. KDE being on the higher end of the
WM spectrum, it'll be heavier to run than ratpoison.

Also, the less RAM your WM uses, the more likely you are to
fit all your application in RAM and spin the hard disk down.
If you're doing some word processing (or whatever), and your whole
environment fits in RAM, and you desactivate disk synching,
you can work for hours without using the disk. A smaller WM
will bring you closer to that goal, and spinning the disk
down does save battery.

So, it's not KDE per se, it's "big application" against
"small application", when those two applications fit
essentially the same purpose.

/Y

Re: Debian Users...

[Russell Coker]

On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 04:00, Caoilte O'Connor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> doesn't fam engage in periodic disk access? i certainly get
> a lot less when not using kde despite having 256M RAM.

I was under the impression that the sole point of FAM was to avoid disk 
access, it should use the kernel dnotify interface for this.  But even if it 
was to repeatedly read a directory this would only cause disk access if you 
didn't use the mount option "noatime" (which every laptop user should use).

I have 384M of RAM and swap still gets used when running KDE.

KDE uses lots of CPU time in many instances, loads big executables from disk 
with lots of shared objects, and uses plenty of memory which causes swapping.
All these things decrease battery life.  Use text mode if you want to get 
maximum batter life.

-- 
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http://www.coker.com.au/bonnie++/  Bonnie++ hard drive benchmark
http://www.coker.com.au/postal/Postal SMTP/POP benchmark
http://www.coker.com.au/~russell/  My home page

Re: Debian Users...

[Caoilte O'Connor]

doesn't fam engage in periodic disk access? i certainly get 
a lot less when not using kde despite having 256M RAM.

anyway, i was referring to load time, 'caus my laptop 
processor throttles down when running on batteries. kde 
becomes unwieldy, whereas ion+emacs+xterm ziiips.

c

On Wednesday 19 November 2003 17:43, Anders Ellenshøj 
Andersen wrote:
> On Wednesday 19 November 2003 13:41, Caoilte O'Connor 
wrote:
> > who could face loading all of KDE when running on
> > batteries. yuck.
>
> Excuse me but how can using KDE impact your battery life?
>
> Anders
>
> --
> This email was generated using KMail from KDE 3.1.4 on
> Debian GNU/Linux

Re: Debian Users...

[Anders Ellenshøj Andersen]

On Wednesday 19 November 2003 13:41, Caoilte O'Connor wrote:

> who could face loading all of KDE when running on batteries.
> yuck.

Excuse me but how can using KDE impact your battery life?

Anders

-- 
This email was generated using KMail from KDE 3.1.4 on Debian GNU/Linux

Re: Debian Users...

[Yves Rutschle]

On Wed, Nov 19, 2003 at 05:43:27PM +0100, Anders Ellenshøj Andersen wrote:
> > who could face loading all of KDE when running on batteries.
> > yuck.
> 
> Excuse me but how can using KDE impact your battery life?

Well, CPU cycles are expensive battery-wise (it's more expensive to do
"something" than idle), so the lighter the application the
better for battery life. KDE being on the higher end of the
WM spectrum, it'll be heavier to run than ratpoison.

Also, the less RAM your WM uses, the more likely you are to
fit all your application in RAM and spin the hard disk down.
If you're doing some word processing (or whatever), and your whole
environment fits in RAM, and you desactivate disk synching,
you can work for hours without using the disk. A smaller WM
will bring you closer to that goal, and spinning the disk
down does save battery.

So, it's not KDE per se, it's "big application" against
"small application", when those two applications fit
essentially the same purpose.

/Y


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Re: Debian Users...

[Russell Coker]

On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 04:00, Caoilte O'Connor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> doesn't fam engage in periodic disk access? i certainly get
> a lot less when not using kde despite having 256M RAM.

I was under the impression that the sole point of FAM was to avoid disk 
access, it should use the kernel dnotify interface for this.  But even if it 
was to repeatedly read a directory this would only cause disk access if you 
didn't use the mount option "noatime" (which every laptop user should use).

I have 384M of RAM and swap still gets used when running KDE.

KDE uses lots of CPU time in many instances, loads big executables from disk 
with lots of shared objects, and uses plenty of memory which causes swapping.
All these things decrease battery life.  Use text mode if you want to get 
maximum batter life.

-- 
http://www.coker.com.au/selinux/   My NSA Security Enhanced Linux packages
http://www.coker.com.au/bonnie++/  Bonnie++ hard drive benchmark
http://www.coker.com.au/postal/Postal SMTP/POP benchmark
http://www.coker.com.au/~russell/  My home page


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Re: Debian Users...

[Caoilte O'Connor]

doesn't fam engage in periodic disk access? i certainly get 
a lot less when not using kde despite having 256M RAM.

anyway, i was referring to load time, 'caus my laptop 
processor throttles down when running on batteries. kde 
becomes unwieldy, whereas ion+emacs+xterm ziiips.

c

On Wednesday 19 November 2003 17:43, Anders Ellenshøj 
Andersen wrote:
> On Wednesday 19 November 2003 13:41, Caoilte O'Connor 
wrote:
> > who could face loading all of KDE when running on
> > batteries. yuck.
>
> Excuse me but how can using KDE impact your battery life?
>
> Anders
>
> --
> This email was generated using KMail from KDE 3.1.4 on
> Debian GNU/Linux


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Re: Debian Users...

[Anders Ellenshøj Andersen]

On Wednesday 19 November 2003 13:41, Caoilte O'Connor wrote:

> who could face loading all of KDE when running on batteries.
> yuck.

Excuse me but how can using KDE impact your battery life?

Anders

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Re: Debian Users...

[Caoilte O'Connor]

> If you want a complete desktop environment, we can agree
> on that, as it is the wm I use, too;-)
>
> For a quick windowmanager alone, however, I think ion the
> wm of choice.

i'm with you there.

who could face loading all of KDE when running on batteries. 
yuck.

such a shame eclipse is unusable in ion, or I'd use it more. 
It was made for 10" screens.

c

Re: Debian Users...

[Caoilte O'Connor]

> If you want a complete desktop environment, we can agree
> on that, as it is the wm I use, too;-)
>
> For a quick windowmanager alone, however, I think ion the
> wm of choice.

i'm with you there.

who could face loading all of KDE when running on batteries. 
yuck.

such a shame eclipse is unusable in ion, or I'd use it more. 
It was made for 10" screens.

c


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Re: Debian Users...

[Joseph Fahey]

On Tue, Nov 18, 2003 at 01:10:52PM -0500, Dutch wrote:
> 
> Debian users,
> -how many of you are running Gnome?
> 
> -how many are running WindowMaker (me)
> 
> -If not WM,then which windowmanager doyou use/prefer?
> 

ratpoison, even after trying some of the competitors.

Re: Debian Users...

[Joseph Fahey]

On Tue, Nov 18, 2003 at 01:10:52PM -0500, Dutch wrote:
> 
> Debian users,
> -how many of you are running Gnome?
> 
> -how many are running WindowMaker (me)
> 
> -If not WM,then which windowmanager doyou use/prefer?
> 

ratpoison, even after trying some of the competitors.




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Re: Debian Users...

[Nate Bargmann]

* Dutch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2003 Nov 18 16:57 -0600]:
> -how many of you are running Gnome?

I'm running a couple of Gnome apps and have some support libs installed,
but am not running Gnome per se.

> -how many are running WindowMaker (me)

Nope.

> -If not WM,then which windowmanager doyou use/prefer?

Been rather satisfied with IceWM for several years now.  I guess I like
the relative simplicity.

- Nate >>

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Re: Debian Users...

[Nate Bargmann]

* Dutch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2003 Nov 18 16:57 -0600]:
> -how many of you are running Gnome?

I'm running a couple of Gnome apps and have some support libs installed,
but am not running Gnome per se.

> -how many are running WindowMaker (me)

Nope.

> -If not WM,then which windowmanager doyou use/prefer?

Been rather satisfied with IceWM for several years now.  I guess I like
the relative simplicity.

- Nate >>

-- 
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 Internet | [EMAIL PROTECTED]   | free since January 1998.
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  Amateur radio exams; ham radio; Linux info @  | a GNU generation!"
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Re: Debian Users...

[Thien-Thi Nguyen]

Dutch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Just sorta takin an informal poll here...

ratpoison, rxvt, emacs, guile-sdl <-- not yet released.  (no mouse,
via Option "AllowMouseOpenFail" "true" in /etc/X11/XF86Config-4.)

thi

Re: Debian Users...

[xsdg]

xfce4 (and, consequently, xfwm4)

I like xfwm4 because it allows me to do everything with the keyboard (which is 
one of the reasons I really liked ion), but it doesn't force me to, like ion 
does.  Also, it also gives me the eye-candy lovin' that I crave (which was 
another drawback of ion).  Additionally, I can have as many workspaces as I 
want (I have 11 full atm :o), and I can create them on the fly with a 
key-combo; that means I can have the majority of my applications maximized.

my list of past window managers, in no specific order

relatively recently:

oroborus + keylaunch(one ancestor of xfwm4)
I like oroborus for basically the same reasons that I like xfwm4 (they
are pretty much the same WM wrt interacting with the user)

ion
I like ion because it allows me to do everything without using
the mouse; I can organize my windows efficiently and in a
non-overlapping manner.  Also, it lets me name my workspaces so I can
access them all quickly.

metacity(another ancestor of xfwm4)
I like metacity because of its appearance and it's user interaction.
Unfortunately, it doesn't allow me to control everything quite as easily
as oroborus.  Additionally, changing keymaps is a pain unless you run
GNOME (which I don't).

waimea
Similar reasons to oroborus.  I stopped using waimea because the main
developer went on vacation and didn't come back within a year.  I was
planning on installing kahakai, but I installed oroborus first (I had
used oroborus on and off during the past months/years)

long time ago:

windowmaker
enlightenment
afterstep

I don't run GNOME or KDE because of their high memory and disk-space 
consumption.  Additionally, they both have a massive amount of baggage to 
install with them, and are both very difficult to completely remove.

-- 
| Locked coathanger in car. |
|   Good thing I had a key. |
) http://www.cuodan.net/~xsdg/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (



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Re: Debian Users...

[Thien-Thi Nguyen]

Dutch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Just sorta takin an informal poll here...

ratpoison, rxvt, emacs, guile-sdl <-- not yet released.  (no mouse,
via Option "AllowMouseOpenFail" "true" in /etc/X11/XF86Config-4.)

thi


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Re: Debian Users...

[xsdg]

xfce4 (and, consequently, xfwm4)

I like xfwm4 because it allows me to do everything with the keyboard (which is one of 
the reasons I really liked ion), but it doesn't force me to, like ion does.  Also, it 
also gives me the eye-candy lovin' that I crave (which was another drawback of ion).  
Additionally, I can have as many workspaces as I want (I have 11 full atm :o), and I 
can create them on the fly with a key-combo; that means I can have the majority of my 
applications maximized.

my list of past window managers, in no specific order

relatively recently:

oroborus + keylaunch(one ancestor of xfwm4)
I like oroborus for basically the same reasons that I like xfwm4 (they
are pretty much the same WM wrt interacting with the user)

ion
I like ion because it allows me to do everything without using
the mouse; I can organize my windows efficiently and in a
non-overlapping manner.  Also, it lets me name my workspaces so I can
access them all quickly.

metacity(another ancestor of xfwm4)
I like metacity because of its appearance and it's user interaction.
Unfortunately, it doesn't allow me to control everything quite as easily
as oroborus.  Additionally, changing keymaps is a pain unless you run
GNOME (which I don't).

waimea
Similar reasons to oroborus.  I stopped using waimea because the main
developer went on vacation and didn't come back within a year.  I was
planning on installing kahakai, but I installed oroborus first (I had
used oroborus on and off during the past months/years)

long time ago:

windowmaker
enlightenment
afterstep

I don't run GNOME or KDE because of their high memory and disk-space consumption.  
Additionally, they both have a massive amount of baggage to install with them, and are 
both very difficult to completely remove.

-- 
| Locked coathanger in car. |
|   Good thing I had a key. |
) http://www.cuodan.net/~xsdg/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (



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Re: Debian Users...

[Johannes Zarl]

> Who in their right mind would choose another desktop but the one true,
> nice looking, user friendly, slick and fast..
>
>  KDE?

If you want a complete desktop environment, we can agree on that, as it is 
the wm I use, too;-)

For a quick windowmanager alone, however, I think ion the wm of choice.

Johannes

-- 
"More than machinery we need humanity" -- Charlie Chaplin, The Great 
Dictator


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Re: Debian Users...

[Yves Rutschle]

On Tue, Nov 18, 2003 at 09:18:16PM +0100, Anders Ellenshøj Andersen wrote:
> Who in their right mind would choose another desktop but the one true, nice 
> looking, user friendly, slick and fast..
> 
>  KDE?

Anyone who actually wants to get work done?

/Y - bah :-)

Re: Debian Users...

[Yves Rutschle]

On Tue, Nov 18, 2003 at 11:57:34PM +0100, François TOURDE wrote:
> > editor and a shell (to compile and run),
> 
> I use my editor to compile and run... Is it really only an editor? I
> use emacs and M-x compile :)

Most of what I do can't be run easily from the editor, as
it's at best cross-compilation, at worst kernel boot
sequences.

/Y - And, my editor isn't an OS. :p

Re: Debian Users...

[Dr. Fred M'Bogo]

On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 13:10:52 -0500
Dutch wrote:


> -If not WM,then which windowmanager doyou use/prefer?

Xfce on Sid on all my laptops


-- 




Yours truly:

Dr. Fred M'Bogo

Doctor of Witchcraft

Re: Debian Users...

[Johannes Zarl]

> Who in their right mind would choose another desktop but the one true,
> nice looking, user friendly, slick and fast..
>
>  KDE?

If you want a complete desktop environment, we can agree on that, as it is 
the wm I use, too;-)

For a quick windowmanager alone, however, I think ion the wm of choice.

Johannes

-- 
"More than machinery we need humanity" -- Charlie Chaplin, The Great 
Dictator


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Re: Debian Users...

[Yves Rutschle]

On Tue, Nov 18, 2003 at 09:18:16PM +0100, Anders Ellenshøj Andersen wrote:
> Who in their right mind would choose another desktop but the one true, nice 
> looking, user friendly, slick and fast..
> 
>  KDE?

Anyone who actually wants to get work done?

/Y - bah :-)


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Re: Debian Users...

[Yves Rutschle]

On Tue, Nov 18, 2003 at 11:57:34PM +0100, François TOURDE wrote:
> > editor and a shell (to compile and run),
> 
> I use my editor to compile and run... Is it really only an editor? I
> use emacs and M-x compile :)

Most of what I do can't be run easily from the editor, as
it's at best cross-compilation, at worst kernel boot
sequences.

/Y - And, my editor isn't an OS. :p


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Re: Debian Users...

[François TOURDE]

WM ... I probably use 1% of the WM power, which use less than 1% of my
cpu power.

Le 12374ième jour après Epoch,
Yves Rutschle écrivait:

> On a large screen, I
> will typically want to have gkrellm or similar monitors, an

I do, it's great !

> editor and a shell (to compile and run),

I use my editor to compile and run... Is it really only an editor? I
use emacs and M-x compile :)

-- 
The advantage of being celibate is that when one sees a pretty girl one
does not need to grieve over having an ugly one back home.
-- Paul Leautaud, "Propos d'un jour"

Re: Debian Users...

[Dr. Fred M'Bogo]

On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 13:10:52 -0500
Dutch wrote:


> -If not WM,then which windowmanager doyou use/prefer?

Xfce on Sid on all my laptops


-- 




Yours truly:

Dr. Fred M'Bogo

Doctor of Witchcraft





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Re: Debian Users...

[François TOURDE]

WM ... I probably use 1% of the WM power, which use less than 1% of my
cpu power.

Le 12374ième jour après Epoch,
Yves Rutschle écrivait:

> On a large screen, I
> will typically want to have gkrellm or similar monitors, an

I do, it's great !

> editor and a shell (to compile and run),

I use my editor to compile and run... Is it really only an editor? I
use emacs and M-x compile :)

-- 
The advantage of being celibate is that when one sees a pretty girl one
does not need to grieve over having an ugly one back home.
-- Paul Leautaud, "Propos d'un jour"


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Re: Debian Users...

[Adam Huuva]

Tom Ballard wrote:


On Tue, Nov 18, 2003 at 01:49:55PM -0600, Alex Malinovich wrote:
 


On Tue, 2003-11-18 at 12:10, Dutch wrote:
   


Just sorta takin an informal poll here...

Debian users,
-how many of you are running Gnome?

-how many are running WindowMaker (me)

-If not WM,then which windowmanager doyou use/prefer?

(I have and am used to WindowMaker. Was thinking of playing with Gnome
for a bit.)
 


Gnome using metacity for a wm
   



I run fluxbox,


Me too. Without yer extras below.

I'm not particularly fond of it, it's just something I kinda got stuck 
with. It mainly doesn't suck enough to make me want to try something else.


My history of wm:s is something like:
fvwm,
kde at some point,
i'm sure gnome was there at it's early stages,
I guess I tried enlightenment as well,
ion briefly,
ratpoison for actually quite a while,
then now I've been using flux for some two years or so.

With flux I've got this row of 11 various and essential wmapps. And a 
bbpager.


I'd guess fvwm is still the one that I've used the longest.


Cheers,
--

Adam Huuva
V:a Esplanaden 11   -   953 37 Eurocity   -   Sweden, Finland
Phone: +46-922-10599 -  E-mail: aatami at home dot se

Re: Debian Users...

[Adam Huuva]

Tom Ballard wrote:

On Tue, Nov 18, 2003 at 01:49:55PM -0600, Alex Malinovich wrote:
 

On Tue, 2003-11-18 at 12:10, Dutch wrote:
   

Just sorta takin an informal poll here...

Debian users,
-how many of you are running Gnome?
-how many are running WindowMaker (me)

-If not WM,then which windowmanager doyou use/prefer?

(I have and am used to WindowMaker. Was thinking of playing with Gnome
for a bit.)
 

Gnome using metacity for a wm
   

I run fluxbox,

Me too. Without yer extras below.

I'm not particularly fond of it, it's just something I kinda got stuck 
with. It mainly doesn't suck enough to make me want to try something else.

My history of wm:s is something like:
fvwm,
kde at some point,
i'm sure gnome was there at it's early stages,
I guess I tried enlightenment as well,
ion briefly,
ratpoison for actually quite a while,
then now I've been using flux for some two years or so.
With flux I've got this row of 11 various and essential wmapps. And a 
bbpager.

I'd guess fvwm is still the one that I've used the longest.

Cheers,
--
Adam Huuva
V:a Esplanaden 11   -   953 37 Eurocity   -   Sweden, Finland
Phone: +46-922-10599 -  E-mail: aatami at home dot se


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Re: Debian Users...

[Ryan M. Golbeck]

Yves Rutschle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> On Tue, Nov 18, 2003 at 03:19:46PM -0500, Ryan M. Golbeck wrote:
>> apt-get install ratpoison
>
> ratpoison looks interesting (I never actually tried it,
> because I ran into ION first and fell in love).
>
> The idea of only having one, full-screen frame at a time
> seem to reductionnist to me, though. On a large screen, I
> will typically want to have gkrellm or similar monitors, an
> editor and a shell (to compile and run), which I really
> want to have all at the same time (I'm greedy).

You can split the window up.  It's not aways just one fullscreen frame
at a time.  I often have 2 emacs frames side-by-side, etc.  You should
check it out if you haven't tried it.

>> As for which one came up with the idea, I think it's arguable.
>
> Fair enough. I'll reword by saying it's one of the very few
> WMs (with ratpoison) to stray from the "many floating,
> overlapping windows" paradigm. 

Fair enough. :)

-ryan

Re: Debian Users...

[Yves Rutschle]

On Tue, Nov 18, 2003 at 03:19:46PM -0500, Ryan M. Golbeck wrote:
> apt-get install ratpoison

ratpoison looks interesting (I never actually tried it,
because I ran into ION first and fell in love).

The idea of only having one, full-screen frame at a time
seem to reductionnist to me, though. On a large screen, I
will typically want to have gkrellm or similar monitors, an
editor and a shell (to compile and run), which I really
want to have all at the same time (I'm greedy).

> As for which one came up with the idea, I think it's arguable.

Fair enough. I'll reword by saying it's one of the very few
WMs (with ratpoison) to stray from the "many floating,
overlapping windows" paradigm. 

/Y

Re: Debian Users...

[Ryan M. Golbeck]

Yves Rutschle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> On Tue, Nov 18, 2003 at 01:10:52PM -0500, Dutch wrote:
>> -If not WM,then which windowmanager doyou use/prefer?
>
> 
> ION, the only WM that has actually invented something since
> 1978 (more or less) and rids window managing of its most
> irritating aspects (which are equally found in WindowMaker,
> KDE, Gnome, MacOS and Windows).
>
> apt-get install ion

apt-get install ratpoison

As for which one came up with the idea, I think it's arguable.

-ryan

Re: Debian Users...

[Anders Ellenshøj Andersen]

On Tuesday 18 November 2003 19:10, Dutch wrote:

> -If not WM,then which windowmanager doyou use/prefer?

Who in their right mind would choose another desktop but the one true, nice 
looking, user friendly, slick and fast..

 KDE?

For me there isn't even a choice.

Anders

-- 
This email was generated using KMail from KDE 3.1.4 on Debian GNU/Linux

Re: Debian Users...

[Ryan M. Golbeck]

Yves Rutschle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> On Tue, Nov 18, 2003 at 03:19:46PM -0500, Ryan M. Golbeck wrote:
>> apt-get install ratpoison
>
> ratpoison looks interesting (I never actually tried it,
> because I ran into ION first and fell in love).
>
> The idea of only having one, full-screen frame at a time
> seem to reductionnist to me, though. On a large screen, I
> will typically want to have gkrellm or similar monitors, an
> editor and a shell (to compile and run), which I really
> want to have all at the same time (I'm greedy).

You can split the window up.  It's not aways just one fullscreen frame
at a time.  I often have 2 emacs frames side-by-side, etc.  You should
check it out if you haven't tried it.

>> As for which one came up with the idea, I think it's arguable.
>
> Fair enough. I'll reword by saying it's one of the very few
> WMs (with ratpoison) to stray from the "many floating,
> overlapping windows" paradigm. 

Fair enough. :)

-ryan


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Re: Debian Users...

[Martin Skøtt]

Openbox (blackbox clone).

I'm using the Gnome panel, but looking to replace it with something
better.

On Tue, Nov 18, 2003 at 01:10:52PM -0500, Dutch wrote:
> 
> Just sorta takin an informal poll here...
> 
> Debian users,
> -how many of you are running Gnome?
> 
> -how many are running WindowMaker (me)
> 
> -If not WM,then which windowmanager doyou use/prefer?
> 
> (I have and am used to WindowMaker. Was thinking of playing with Gnome
> for a bit.)
> 

-- 
Martin Skøtt
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Debian Users...

[Yves Rutschle]

On Tue, Nov 18, 2003 at 03:19:46PM -0500, Ryan M. Golbeck wrote:
> apt-get install ratpoison

ratpoison looks interesting (I never actually tried it,
because I ran into ION first and fell in love).

The idea of only having one, full-screen frame at a time
seem to reductionnist to me, though. On a large screen, I
will typically want to have gkrellm or similar monitors, an
editor and a shell (to compile and run), which I really
want to have all at the same time (I'm greedy).

> As for which one came up with the idea, I think it's arguable.

Fair enough. I'll reword by saying it's one of the very few
WMs (with ratpoison) to stray from the "many floating,
overlapping windows" paradigm. 

/Y


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Re: Debian Users...

[Matt Foster]

sawfish

Quoting Dutch ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):
> 
> Just sorta takin an informal poll here...
> 
> Debian users,
> -how many of you are running Gnome?
> 
> -how many are running WindowMaker (me)
> 
> -If not WM,then which windowmanager doyou use/prefer?
> 
> (I have and am used to WindowMaker. Was thinking of playing with Gnome
> for a bit.)
> 
> -- 
> David
> 
> Bash > $_
> 
> 
> -- 
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> 
-- 
Matt Foster

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.mattfoster.clara.co.uk 
icq: 106411042



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Re: Debian Users...

[Tom Ballard]

On Tue, Nov 18, 2003 at 01:49:55PM -0600, Alex Malinovich wrote:
> On Tue, 2003-11-18 at 12:10, Dutch wrote:
> > Just sorta takin an informal poll here...
> > 
> > Debian users,
> > -how many of you are running Gnome?
> > 
> > -how many are running WindowMaker (me)
> > 
> > -If not WM,then which windowmanager doyou use/prefer?
> > 
> > (I have and am used to WindowMaker. Was thinking of playing with Gnome
> > for a bit.)
> 
> Gnome using metacity for a wm

I run fluxbox, but I have kcontrol and gnome-control-center installed, 
and run kdeinit and gnome-control-center in my xinitrc, which starts the 
worker processes so that Gnome and KDE apps think they're running in the 
real thing, with all the settings, themes, &c.

[KDE apps will do that anyway but there will be delay while kdeinit 
starts when you run the first one]

I like to think I have it all.

Re: Debian Users...

[Yves Rutschle]

On Tue, Nov 18, 2003 at 01:10:52PM -0500, Dutch wrote:
> -If not WM,then which windowmanager doyou use/prefer?


ION, the only WM that has actually invented something since
1978 (more or less) and rids window managing of its most
irritating aspects (which are equally found in WindowMaker,
KDE, Gnome, MacOS and Windows).

apt-get install ion
now!



(ok, PWM is good too. Gnome and KDE are essentially the same
thing IMO.)

/Y :-)

Re: Debian Users...

[Alex Malinovich]

On Tue, 2003-11-18 at 12:10, Dutch wrote:
> Just sorta takin an informal poll here...
> 
> Debian users,
> -how many of you are running Gnome?
> 
> -how many are running WindowMaker (me)
> 
> -If not WM,then which windowmanager doyou use/prefer?
> 
> (I have and am used to WindowMaker. Was thinking of playing with Gnome
> for a bit.)

Gnome using metacity for a wm

-- 
Alex Malinovich
Support Free Software, delete your Windows partition TODAY!
Encrypted mail preferred. You can get my public key from any of the
pgp.net keyservers. Key ID: A6D24837



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Re: Debian Users...

[Ryan M. Golbeck]

Yves Rutschle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> On Tue, Nov 18, 2003 at 01:10:52PM -0500, Dutch wrote:
>> -If not WM,then which windowmanager doyou use/prefer?
>
> 
> ION, the only WM that has actually invented something since
> 1978 (more or less) and rids window managing of its most
> irritating aspects (which are equally found in WindowMaker,
> KDE, Gnome, MacOS and Windows).
>
> apt-get install ion

apt-get install ratpoison

As for which one came up with the idea, I think it's arguable.

-ryan


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Re: Debian Users...

[Anders Ellenshøj Andersen]

On Tuesday 18 November 2003 19:10, Dutch wrote:

> -If not WM,then which windowmanager doyou use/prefer?

Who in their right mind would choose another desktop but the one true, nice 
looking, user friendly, slick and fast..

 KDE?

For me there isn't even a choice.

Anders

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This email was generated using KMail from KDE 3.1.4 on Debian GNU/Linux


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Re: Debian Users...

[Mark Barnes]

windowmaker


On Tue, Nov 18, 2003 at 01:10:52PM -0500, Dutch wrote:
> 
> Just sorta takin an informal poll here...
> 
> Debian users,
> -how many of you are running Gnome?
> 
> -how many are running WindowMaker (me)
> 
> -If not WM,then which windowmanager doyou use/prefer?
> 
> (I have and am used to WindowMaker. Was thinking of playing with Gnome
> for a bit.)
> 
> -- 
> David
> 
> Bash > $_
> 

RE: Debian Users...

[DePriest, Jason R.]

> -Original Message-
> From: Dutch [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2003 12:11 PM
> To: debian-laptop@lists.debian.org
> Subject: Debian Users...
> 
> 
> 
> Just sorta takin an informal poll here...
> 
> Debian users,
> -how many of you are running Gnome?
> 
> -how many are running WindowMaker (me)
> 
> -If not WM,then which windowmanager doyou use/prefer?
> 
> (I have and am used to WindowMaker. Was thinking of playing with Gnome
> for a bit.)
> 
> -- 
> David
> 
> Bash > $_
> 

I only use IceWM on my puny systems.

But I like Gnome over KDE (not sure why, really) on systems that can
handle it.

-Jason

Re: Debian Users...

[Martin Skøtt]

Openbox (blackbox clone).

I'm using the Gnome panel, but looking to replace it with something
better.

On Tue, Nov 18, 2003 at 01:10:52PM -0500, Dutch wrote:
> 
> Just sorta takin an informal poll here...
> 
> Debian users,
> -how many of you are running Gnome?
> 
> -how many are running WindowMaker (me)
> 
> -If not WM,then which windowmanager doyou use/prefer?
> 
> (I have and am used to WindowMaker. Was thinking of playing with Gnome
> for a bit.)
> 

-- 
Martin Skøtt
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: Debian Users...

[Matt Foster]

sawfish

Quoting Dutch ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):
> 
> Just sorta takin an informal poll here...
> 
> Debian users,
> -how many of you are running Gnome?
> 
> -how many are running WindowMaker (me)
> 
> -If not WM,then which windowmanager doyou use/prefer?
> 
> (I have and am used to WindowMaker. Was thinking of playing with Gnome
> for a bit.)
> 
> -- 
> David
> 
> Bash > $_
> 
> 
> -- 
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> 
-- 
Matt Foster

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.mattfoster.clara.co.uk 
icq: 106411042



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Re: Debian Users...

[Tom Ballard]

On Tue, Nov 18, 2003 at 01:49:55PM -0600, Alex Malinovich wrote:
> On Tue, 2003-11-18 at 12:10, Dutch wrote:
> > Just sorta takin an informal poll here...
> > 
> > Debian users,
> > -how many of you are running Gnome?
> > 
> > -how many are running WindowMaker (me)
> > 
> > -If not WM,then which windowmanager doyou use/prefer?
> > 
> > (I have and am used to WindowMaker. Was thinking of playing with Gnome
> > for a bit.)
> 
> Gnome using metacity for a wm

I run fluxbox, but I have kcontrol and gnome-control-center installed, 
and run kdeinit and gnome-control-center in my xinitrc, which starts the 
worker processes so that Gnome and KDE apps think they're running in the 
real thing, with all the settings, themes, &c.

[KDE apps will do that anyway but there will be delay while kdeinit 
starts when you run the first one]

I like to think I have it all.


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