Re: Drawings similar to well known products. Copyright problems? [END]
On Tue, Jan 11, 2005 at 11:03:39AM +0100, Aurélien Jarno wrote: > Considering all what I said on debian-legal, I consider that the images > provided in openclipart are not a problem concerning copyright or trademark. > > I am therefore closing this thread on this mailing-list and the bug report. > > Thanks to everybody who help me to understand the problem. Er, you can close a bug report if you like, but there's no such thing as closing a thread on a Debian mailing list. :) -- Glenn Maynard
Re: Drawings similar to well known products. Copyright problems? [END]
On Tue, Jan 11, 2005 at 11:03:39AM +0100, Aurélien Jarno wrote: > Considering all what I said on debian-legal, I consider that the images > provided in openclipart are not a problem concerning copyright or trademark. > > I am therefore closing this thread on this mailing-list and the bug report. > > Thanks to everybody who help me to understand the problem. Er, you can close a bug report if you like, but there's no such thing as closing a thread on a Debian mailing list. :) -- Glenn Maynard -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Drawings similar to well known products. Copyright problems?
O Luns, 10 de Xaneiro de 2005 ás 18:51:32 -0500, Brian Thomas Sniffen escribía: > I wouldn't be horribly surprised if the names "hummer" or "rubik" are Is "HMMV" a registered trademark? -- Jacobo Tarrío | http://jacobo.tarrio.org/
Re: Drawings similar to well known products. Copyright problems?
O Luns, 10 de Xaneiro de 2005 ás 18:51:32 -0500, Brian Thomas Sniffen escribía: > I wouldn't be horribly surprised if the names "hummer" or "rubik" are Is "HMMV" a registered trademark? -- Jacobo Tarrío | http://jacobo.tarrio.org/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Drawings similar to well known products. Copyright problems? [END]
Considering all what I said on debian-legal, I consider that the images provided in openclipart are not a problem concerning copyright or trademark. I am therefore closing this thread on this mailing-list and the bug report. Thanks to everybody who help me to understand the problem. -- .''`. Aurelien Jarno GPG: 1024D/F1BCDB73 : :' : Debian GNU/Linux developer | Electrical Engineer `. `' [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED] `-people.debian.org/~aurel32 | www.aurel32.net
Re: Drawings similar to well known products. Copyright problems? [END]
Considering all what I said on debian-legal, I consider that the images provided in openclipart are not a problem concerning copyright or trademark. I am therefore closing this thread on this mailing-list and the bug report. Thanks to everybody who help me to understand the problem. -- .''`. Aurelien Jarno GPG: 1024D/F1BCDB73 : :' : Debian GNU/Linux developer | Electrical Engineer `. `' [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED] `-people.debian.org/~aurel32 | www.aurel32.net -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Drawings similar to well known products. Copyright problems?
On Tue, Jan 11, 2005 at 12:56:37AM +, Andrew Suffield wrote: > On Mon, Jan 10, 2005 at 07:13:21PM -0500, William Ballard wrote: > > It's pretty clear what the intent was -- those are intended to > > represents specific brands. I have no idea if that's permitted or not. > > Of course it's allowed, you blithering idiot. This has got to be the > most *random* thing I've seen on -legal in months. "I don't know" is random, and makes him a "blithering idiot" to be flamed? Your bursts of undeserved incivility (see also [EMAIL PROTECTED]) are quickly starting to overwhelm your contribution to this list. Find a better outlet, please. -- Glenn Maynard
Re: Drawings similar to well known products. Copyright problems?
On Tue, Jan 11, 2005 at 01:36:34AM +0100, Aurelien Jarno wrote: > Considering all of that, I think the hummer files could be a problem as > the filename states that the artist wanted to draw a hummer car. As > "HUMMER" is a registered trademark of General Motors Corporation, it may > be a problem. There is no law, not even trademark law, against drawing pictures of somebody else's product. This whole affair is insane. Trademarks don't even apply outside their domain, and the domain of the "HUMMER" does not include artwork. -- .''`. ** Debian GNU/Linux ** | Andrew Suffield : :' : http://www.debian.org/ | `. `' | `- -><- | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Drawings similar to well known products. Copyright problems?
On Mon, Jan 10, 2005 at 07:13:21PM -0500, William Ballard wrote: > It's pretty clear what the intent was -- those are intended to > represents specific brands. I have no idea if that's permitted or not. Of course it's allowed, you blithering idiot. This has got to be the most *random* thing I've seen on -legal in months. -- .''`. ** Debian GNU/Linux ** | Andrew Suffield : :' : http://www.debian.org/ | `. `' | `- -><- | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Drawings similar to well known products. Copyright problems?
On Mon, Jan 10, 2005 at 04:16:16PM -0800, Don Armstrong wrote: > Almost none of these images appear to actually be affected by whomever > William claims to own the copyright, unless they are actually > derivative works of something that is copyrighted.[1] > > However, it's quite possible that they are representations of > trademarks, and as such protected wherever such a company has > trademarks. [I don't deign to know who actually controlls these > trademarks, or even if they are really trademarked.] > > Yet, even if that's the case, I don't see that there's a point to > removing these works until we get cease and desist letters from the > people who own the trademark. If that happens, the maintainer(s) of > this package will have to act quickly to remove the works in question, > even if they are in stable... but I'll be really surprised if they > ever actually care. > > Just for the record, I am not a lawyer, and this is not legal advice. > > > Don Armstrong > > 1: I think the phone image is about the closest one to being a > derivative work of a copyrighted work... but if I'll believe it if the > artist says that it just drawn based on an idea of what a cell phone > looks like. Considering all of that, I think the hummer files could be a problem as the filename states that the artist wanted to draw a hummer car. As "HUMMER" is a registered trademark of General Motors Corporation, it may be a problem. I think I'll change the names of the files in the next upload. -- .''`. Aurelien Jarno GPG: 1024D/F1BCDB73 : :' : Debian GNU/Linux developer | Electrical Engineer `. `' [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED] `-people.debian.org/~aurel32 | www.aurel32.net
Re: Drawings similar to well known products. Copyright problems?
On Mon, Jan 10, 2005 at 04:16:16PM -0800, Don Armstrong wrote: > However, it's quite possible that they are representations of > trademarks, and as such protected wherever such a company has > trademarks. [I don't deign to know who actually controlls these > trademarks, or even if they are really trademarked.] If you look at knockoffs of famous brands you'll see they mimic the popular brand (which is permitted) but deviate in some signficant way. I don't think it's a big deal but I wouldn't take the risk. If it was me I'd say a solid blue battery that says "battery" is okay; this one ain't. "Rubik" should be renamed "cube". "Pac-Man" should be removed entirely. Hummer should be renamed. Free-Mason symbol should be removed entirely. Lighter is okay. Wagon is okay. Phone is probably okay although why risk it. It looks a lot like a Nokia. Although doing nothing is probably okay. If it was me I wouldn't risk any of it. But then I'm not a slime-ball who tries to get away with as much as possible.
Re: Drawings similar to well known products. Copyright problems?
On Mon, Jan 10, 2005 at 04:16:16PM -0800, Don Armstrong wrote: > [I'll not Cc: you Aurelian, as I assume you'll get this from the BTS > anyway. Others: If you stop Cc:'ing the bug, you'll probably need to > Cc: the maintainer.] I am subscribed to the list, so don't need to Cc: me. For the BTS, if the thread gets too long it might be a good idea to stop CC:'ing it. -- .''`. Aurelien Jarno GPG: 1024D/F1BCDB73 : :' : Debian GNU/Linux developer | Electrical Engineer `. `' [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED] `-people.debian.org/~aurel32 | www.aurel32.net
Re: Drawings similar to well known products. Copyright problems?
On Mon, Jan 10, 2005 at 06:51:32PM -0500, Brian Thomas Sniffen wrote: > There may be trademark problems. For example, Duracell may have a > consider the orange-and-black battery to be trade dress; my > understanding of trademark law is quite limited, but I don't think it > applies to pictures of the trade dress in a different form. It's also got the plus sign. That's quite clearly intended to be a Duracel battery. The lighter is clearly a Bic lighter, but other lighters look similar to that. It's pretty clear what the intent was -- those are intended to represents specific brands. I have no idea if that's permitted or not. As for the smiley face I've googled it and Wal Mart now owns the "oval-eyed/curvey-mouthed" "ur-smiley-face" that we all think of. I *think* it's okay to draw a smiley face as long as it's distinctly different, just as it's okay to draw a blue battery or a zippo-looking lighter which has a different number of wind vent slits -- as long as you make an effort to distinguish it from the specific brand. I don't think anybody would sue you unless they wanted to. If you used it to Defame the brand-holder I think the judge would have a case. It has to do with "intent."
Re: Drawings similar to well known products. Copyright problems?
[I'll not Cc: you Aurelian, as I assume you'll get this from the BTS anyway. Others: If you stop Cc:'ing the bug, you'll probably need to Cc: the maintainer.] On Tue, 11 Jan 2005, Aurelien Jarno wrote: > I recently package and uploaded openclipart [1], an open clipart > library. The package has just been accepted by the ftpmasters and is > now in Debian. > > I just received a bug report (#289764) from William Ballard about > problematic copyrighted pictures, that looks like similar to some > well known company products. First and foremost, there's a serious conflation of copyrights and trademarks here. Almost none of these images appear to actually be affected by whomever William claims to own the copyright, unless they are actually derivative works of something that is copyrighted.[1] However, it's quite possible that they are representations of trademarks, and as such protected wherever such a company has trademarks. [I don't deign to know who actually controlls these trademarks, or even if they are really trademarked.] Yet, even if that's the case, I don't see that there's a point to removing these works until we get cease and desist letters from the people who own the trademark. If that happens, the maintainer(s) of this package will have to act quickly to remove the works in question, even if they are in stable... but I'll be really surprised if they ever actually care. Just for the record, I am not a lawyer, and this is not legal advice. Don Armstrong 1: I think the phone image is about the closest one to being a derivative work of a copyrighted work... but if I'll believe it if the artist says that it just drawn based on an idea of what a cell phone looks like. -- Three little words. (In decending order of importance.) I love you -- hugh macleod http://www.gapingvoid.com/graphics/batch35.php http://www.donarmstrong.com http://rzlab.ucr.edu signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Drawings similar to well known products. Copyright problems?
On Mon, Jan 10, 2005 at 06:51:32PM -0500, Brian Thomas Sniffen wrote: > Aurelien Jarno <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > I should admit that I don't know anything about such copyright law, > > however I think that as long it is just a drawing without any > > copyrighted logo, it's not a problem. > > A quick look over these pictures suggests no *copyright* problems. > They look like independent creations of some artist, not derived from > the works of Duracell, Bic, or whoever first drew a yellow smiley face. Nice to hear that. > There may be trademark problems. For example, Duracell may have a > consider the orange-and-black battery to be trade dress; my > understanding of trademark law is quite limited, but I don't think it > applies to pictures of the trade dress in a different form. Ok, further investigation should be done on that. > I wouldn't be horribly surprised if the names "hummer" or "rubik" are > trademarks of the companies using them. I'm not sure what action to > take based on that surmise, though. For hummer, it's seems easy to change the name, something like 4WD car can go there. For Rubik it is a little more difficult to find another work, and I am almost sure this word is used somewhere in Debian. Aurelien -- .''`. Aurelien Jarno GPG: 1024D/F1BCDB73 : :' : Debian GNU/Linux developer | Electrical Engineer `. `' [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED] `-people.debian.org/~aurel32 | www.aurel32.net
Re: Drawings similar to well known products. Copyright problems?
Aurelien Jarno <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > I should admit that I don't know anything about such copyright law, > however I think that as long it is just a drawing without any > copyrighted logo, it's not a problem. A quick look over these pictures suggests no *copyright* problems. They look like independent creations of some artist, not derived from the works of Duracell, Bic, or whoever first drew a yellow smiley face. There may be trademark problems. For example, Duracell may have a consider the orange-and-black battery to be trade dress; my understanding of trademark law is quite limited, but I don't think it applies to pictures of the trade dress in a different form. I wouldn't be horribly surprised if the names "hummer" or "rubik" are trademarks of the companies using them. I'm not sure what action to take based on that surmise, though. -Brian -- Brian Sniffen [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Drawings similar to well known products. Copyright problems?
On Tue, Jan 11, 2005 at 12:56:37AM +, Andrew Suffield wrote: > On Mon, Jan 10, 2005 at 07:13:21PM -0500, William Ballard wrote: > > It's pretty clear what the intent was -- those are intended to > > represents specific brands. I have no idea if that's permitted or not. > > Of course it's allowed, you blithering idiot. This has got to be the > most *random* thing I've seen on -legal in months. "I don't know" is random, and makes him a "blithering idiot" to be flamed? Your bursts of undeserved incivility (see also [EMAIL PROTECTED]) are quickly starting to overwhelm your contribution to this list. Find a better outlet, please. -- Glenn Maynard -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Drawings similar to well known products. Copyright problems?
On Tue, Jan 11, 2005 at 01:36:34AM +0100, Aurelien Jarno wrote: > Considering all of that, I think the hummer files could be a problem as > the filename states that the artist wanted to draw a hummer car. As > "HUMMER" is a registered trademark of General Motors Corporation, it may > be a problem. There is no law, not even trademark law, against drawing pictures of somebody else's product. This whole affair is insane. Trademarks don't even apply outside their domain, and the domain of the "HUMMER" does not include artwork. -- .''`. ** Debian GNU/Linux ** | Andrew Suffield : :' : http://www.debian.org/ | `. `' | `- -><- | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Drawings similar to well known products. Copyright problems?
On Mon, Jan 10, 2005 at 07:13:21PM -0500, William Ballard wrote: > It's pretty clear what the intent was -- those are intended to > represents specific brands. I have no idea if that's permitted or not. Of course it's allowed, you blithering idiot. This has got to be the most *random* thing I've seen on -legal in months. -- .''`. ** Debian GNU/Linux ** | Andrew Suffield : :' : http://www.debian.org/ | `. `' | `- -><- | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Drawings similar to well known products. Copyright problems?
On Mon, Jan 10, 2005 at 04:16:16PM -0800, Don Armstrong wrote: > Almost none of these images appear to actually be affected by whomever > William claims to own the copyright, unless they are actually > derivative works of something that is copyrighted.[1] > > However, it's quite possible that they are representations of > trademarks, and as such protected wherever such a company has > trademarks. [I don't deign to know who actually controlls these > trademarks, or even if they are really trademarked.] > > Yet, even if that's the case, I don't see that there's a point to > removing these works until we get cease and desist letters from the > people who own the trademark. If that happens, the maintainer(s) of > this package will have to act quickly to remove the works in question, > even if they are in stable... but I'll be really surprised if they > ever actually care. > > Just for the record, I am not a lawyer, and this is not legal advice. > > > Don Armstrong > > 1: I think the phone image is about the closest one to being a > derivative work of a copyrighted work... but if I'll believe it if the > artist says that it just drawn based on an idea of what a cell phone > looks like. Considering all of that, I think the hummer files could be a problem as the filename states that the artist wanted to draw a hummer car. As "HUMMER" is a registered trademark of General Motors Corporation, it may be a problem. I think I'll change the names of the files in the next upload. -- .''`. Aurelien Jarno GPG: 1024D/F1BCDB73 : :' : Debian GNU/Linux developer | Electrical Engineer `. `' [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED] `-people.debian.org/~aurel32 | www.aurel32.net -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Drawings similar to well known products. Copyright problems?
On Mon, Jan 10, 2005 at 04:16:16PM -0800, Don Armstrong wrote: > However, it's quite possible that they are representations of > trademarks, and as such protected wherever such a company has > trademarks. [I don't deign to know who actually controlls these > trademarks, or even if they are really trademarked.] If you look at knockoffs of famous brands you'll see they mimic the popular brand (which is permitted) but deviate in some signficant way. I don't think it's a big deal but I wouldn't take the risk. If it was me I'd say a solid blue battery that says "battery" is okay; this one ain't. "Rubik" should be renamed "cube". "Pac-Man" should be removed entirely. Hummer should be renamed. Free-Mason symbol should be removed entirely. Lighter is okay. Wagon is okay. Phone is probably okay although why risk it. It looks a lot like a Nokia. Although doing nothing is probably okay. If it was me I wouldn't risk any of it. But then I'm not a slime-ball who tries to get away with as much as possible. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Drawings similar to well known products. Copyright problems?
On Mon, Jan 10, 2005 at 04:16:16PM -0800, Don Armstrong wrote: > [I'll not Cc: you Aurelian, as I assume you'll get this from the BTS > anyway. Others: If you stop Cc:'ing the bug, you'll probably need to > Cc: the maintainer.] I am subscribed to the list, so don't need to Cc: me. For the BTS, if the thread gets too long it might be a good idea to stop CC:'ing it. -- .''`. Aurelien Jarno GPG: 1024D/F1BCDB73 : :' : Debian GNU/Linux developer | Electrical Engineer `. `' [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED] `-people.debian.org/~aurel32 | www.aurel32.net -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Drawings similar to well known products. Copyright problems?
On Mon, Jan 10, 2005 at 06:51:32PM -0500, Brian Thomas Sniffen wrote: > There may be trademark problems. For example, Duracell may have a > consider the orange-and-black battery to be trade dress; my > understanding of trademark law is quite limited, but I don't think it > applies to pictures of the trade dress in a different form. It's also got the plus sign. That's quite clearly intended to be a Duracel battery. The lighter is clearly a Bic lighter, but other lighters look similar to that. It's pretty clear what the intent was -- those are intended to represents specific brands. I have no idea if that's permitted or not. As for the smiley face I've googled it and Wal Mart now owns the "oval-eyed/curvey-mouthed" "ur-smiley-face" that we all think of. I *think* it's okay to draw a smiley face as long as it's distinctly different, just as it's okay to draw a blue battery or a zippo-looking lighter which has a different number of wind vent slits -- as long as you make an effort to distinguish it from the specific brand. I don't think anybody would sue you unless they wanted to. If you used it to Defame the brand-holder I think the judge would have a case. It has to do with "intent." -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Drawings similar to well known products. Copyright problems?
[I'll not Cc: you Aurelian, as I assume you'll get this from the BTS anyway. Others: If you stop Cc:'ing the bug, you'll probably need to Cc: the maintainer.] On Tue, 11 Jan 2005, Aurelien Jarno wrote: > I recently package and uploaded openclipart [1], an open clipart > library. The package has just been accepted by the ftpmasters and is > now in Debian. > > I just received a bug report (#289764) from William Ballard about > problematic copyrighted pictures, that looks like similar to some > well known company products. First and foremost, there's a serious conflation of copyrights and trademarks here. Almost none of these images appear to actually be affected by whomever William claims to own the copyright, unless they are actually derivative works of something that is copyrighted.[1] However, it's quite possible that they are representations of trademarks, and as such protected wherever such a company has trademarks. [I don't deign to know who actually controlls these trademarks, or even if they are really trademarked.] Yet, even if that's the case, I don't see that there's a point to removing these works until we get cease and desist letters from the people who own the trademark. If that happens, the maintainer(s) of this package will have to act quickly to remove the works in question, even if they are in stable... but I'll be really surprised if they ever actually care. Just for the record, I am not a lawyer, and this is not legal advice. Don Armstrong 1: I think the phone image is about the closest one to being a derivative work of a copyrighted work... but if I'll believe it if the artist says that it just drawn based on an idea of what a cell phone looks like. -- Three little words. (In decending order of importance.) I love you -- hugh macleod http://www.gapingvoid.com/graphics/batch35.php http://www.donarmstrong.com http://rzlab.ucr.edu signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Drawings similar to well known products. Copyright problems?
On Mon, Jan 10, 2005 at 06:51:32PM -0500, Brian Thomas Sniffen wrote: > Aurelien Jarno <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > I should admit that I don't know anything about such copyright law, > > however I think that as long it is just a drawing without any > > copyrighted logo, it's not a problem. > > A quick look over these pictures suggests no *copyright* problems. > They look like independent creations of some artist, not derived from > the works of Duracell, Bic, or whoever first drew a yellow smiley face. Nice to hear that. > There may be trademark problems. For example, Duracell may have a > consider the orange-and-black battery to be trade dress; my > understanding of trademark law is quite limited, but I don't think it > applies to pictures of the trade dress in a different form. Ok, further investigation should be done on that. > I wouldn't be horribly surprised if the names "hummer" or "rubik" are > trademarks of the companies using them. I'm not sure what action to > take based on that surmise, though. For hummer, it's seems easy to change the name, something like 4WD car can go there. For Rubik it is a little more difficult to find another work, and I am almost sure this word is used somewhere in Debian. Aurelien -- .''`. Aurelien Jarno GPG: 1024D/F1BCDB73 : :' : Debian GNU/Linux developer | Electrical Engineer `. `' [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED] `-people.debian.org/~aurel32 | www.aurel32.net -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Drawings similar to well known products. Copyright problems?
Aurelien Jarno <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > I should admit that I don't know anything about such copyright law, > however I think that as long it is just a drawing without any > copyrighted logo, it's not a problem. A quick look over these pictures suggests no *copyright* problems. They look like independent creations of some artist, not derived from the works of Duracell, Bic, or whoever first drew a yellow smiley face. There may be trademark problems. For example, Duracell may have a consider the orange-and-black battery to be trade dress; my understanding of trademark law is quite limited, but I don't think it applies to pictures of the trade dress in a different form. I wouldn't be horribly surprised if the names "hummer" or "rubik" are trademarks of the companies using them. I'm not sure what action to take based on that surmise, though. -Brian -- Brian Sniffen [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
