Re: Advocacy for Jari Aalto
Hi, I just want to add my word into this thread. I think Jari knew more than I did when I become a DD in year 2000, but I also know that things have changed since that. Jari have helped me with valuable contributions and based on that I would like to advocate him as DD, and if that is not possible at least DM. Cheers, // Ola -- --- Inguza Technology AB --- MSc in Information Technology / o...@inguza.comAnnebergsslingan 37\ | o...@debian.org 654 65 KARLSTAD| | http://inguza.com/Mobile: +46 (0)70-332 1551 | \ gpg/f.p.: 7090 A92B 18FE 7994 0C36 4FE4 18A1 B1CF 0FE5 3DD9 / --- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-newmaint-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20130529091429.gb6...@inguza.net
Re: Advocacy for Jari Aalto
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 05/24/2013 05:03 PM, Ricardo Mones wrote: I hereby advocate Jari as DM. And me as well. Jari, do not be disappointed. It is very likely that you will be made DM (as the DAM wrote we do encourage you to get DM), and that if you re-apply to be DD in a year or 2, you will get approved (if you improved, which I'm sure you will). Cheers, Thomas -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAlGk3rgACgkQl4M9yZjvmkmJqwCg55oJZClS3ELK14BZVqSK2sy1 gmsAoMKiVk44AbtTZ18fdaryA5RlZ2dk =7oUQ -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-newmaint-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/51a4debc.4090...@debian.org
Re: Advocacy for Jari Aalto
On 05/28/2013 09:43 AM, Thomas Goirand wrote: On 05/24/2013 05:03 PM, Ricardo Mones wrote: I hereby advocate Jari as DM. And me as well. Jari, do not be disappointed. It is very likely that you will be made DM (as the DAM wrote we do encourage you to get DM), and that if you re-apply to be DD in a year or 2, you will get approved (if you improved, which I'm sure you will). In the interest of being explicit (since before I was responding to a thread regarding Jari's DD application), based on my collaboration with him as a sponsor, I also hereby advocate Jari Aalto for the role of DM. Jari, I look forward to continuing to work with you on Debian. Cheers, tony signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Advocacy for Jari Aalto
On 05/24/2013 03:24 AM, Bernd Zeimetz wrote: On 05/23/2013 03:30 PM, Thomas Goirand wrote: On 05/23/2013 06:32 PM, Arno Töll wrote: We do disagree that this should happen in a NMU. I think that ownership of packages in Debian is too strong, and that we should have a more liberal approach to NMU. If that is your opinion, discuss it on the relevant lists. It is absolutely not okay to handle against the developer reference just because something - in your opinion - could or should be done differently. It is expected from a DD - as you are - to follow these easy principles in Debian. This is my opinion, though I do not intend to force such (radical) change inside the Debian community. Thomas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-newmaint-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/519f18fb.8090...@debian.org
Re: Advocacy for Jari Aalto
Hi, I personally don't think having Jari as DD is going to do any harm to the project at all. While initial interactions were typical for anyone which is learning something new, he has improved a lot, more than enough for a DD. I must concur with Raphael that the number of packages is probably too high, but most of them are simple packages. And he has showed capable to deal with them. Regarding others, well, I disagree, but this is probably not the place to discuss them, so I'll wait until we're in front of a pint of beer in a future debconf. Anyway, as decission is already taken and some time as DM won't hurt anybody, I hereby advocate Jari as DM. best regards, P.S.: Cc on replies, I'm not subscribed to newmaint. On Thu, May 23, 2013 at 10:19:08AM -0700, Christoph Berg wrote: Hi Jari, we are afraid to have to tell you that we currently agree with Raphael's assessment here. Your contributions to Debian are widespread, but there seems to be some attrition between them and the rest of the project. We prefer not to accept your application for Debian Developer right now, but reading what your sponsor Tony Mancill said, we do encourage you to get DM rights, and we would like to encourage you to spend some time to try and blend in a bit more with the rest of the developers. Re: Raphael Hertzog 2013-05-22 20130522081616.gc12...@x230-buxy.home.ouaza.com On Wed, 22 May 2013, Jakub Wilk wrote: * Thomas Goirand tho...@goirand.fr, 2013-05-21, 21:52: I think Jari would be a very valuable asset in Debian, and that he should be made DD. I very much disagree. I'm with Jakub. My interactions with Jari have been rather on the bug reports front, but he tends to care a lot about issues which are not important at all. He doesn't seem to be able to weigh the usefulness of his reports towards the time it costs for others to deal with them. [...] All in all, I think he's already at the right place in the spectrum of possible ways to contribute to Debian. He does a lot of polishing, trivial bug fixing and has probably helped many maintainers to update their packaging or to fix RC bugs while they were MIA. For the Debian Account Managers, Christoph Enrico Joerg -- Ricardo Mones ~ Don't take the name of root in vain. /usr/src/linux/README signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Advocacy for Jari Aalto
Hello, and thank you for the cc: I'm not currently subscribed to d-newmaint. On 05/22/2013 01:16 AM, Raphael Hertzog wrote: Hi, On Wed, 22 May 2013, Jakub Wilk wrote: * Thomas Goirand tho...@goirand.fr, 2013-05-21, 21:52: I think Jari would be a very valuable asset in Debian, and that he should be made DD. I very much disagree. I'm with Jakub. My interactions with Jari have been rather on the bug reports front, but he tends to care a lot about issues which are not important at all. He doesn't seem to be able to weigh the usefulness of his reports towards the time it costs for others to deal with them. It appears that I am in agreement with Thomas and disagreement with Jakub and Raphael, at least to a certain extent. I'll agree that Jari has opted to focus on bug fixing and updating packaging - in fact, I have an email folder with 80-odd sponsor requests for QA/MIA and maintainer-ACK'd NMUs to complete getting rid of dpatch. But I would argue that, (a) these things are useful to the distribution (namely, regularity and consistency in packaging practices as opposed to allowing cruft to accumulate), and (b) I don't see other contributors spending so much of their time on these questions of consistency. He made a number of dubious NMUs (just to upgrade the packaging to newer debhelper/source formats/etc) and he doesn't seem to be aware of the requirements for uploads during the freeze [1]. Reference [1] is about 2 and 1/2 years old, and I don't know what the half-life is for mistakes, but it doesn't bother me that much. His NMUs were to fix bugs (often RC bugs) *and* upgrade packaging, never (to my knowledge) merely to update packaging. At least the NMUs of his that I sponsored. And given that he doesn't have upload rights, they were all sponsored. So your beef is more properly with me. (But let's save the debate about the scope of NMUs for a separate thread.) He started a mass bug filing without any coordination [2]. This seems to happen from time to time anyway, often perpetrated by DDs with good intentions. The amount of packages that he maintains alone, i.e. outside of any team is also worrying (in terms of willingess and ability to work with others). Quite a few packages are lagging behind new upstreams versions (I count 8 on his DDPO page) but that's to be expected when one maintains so many packages. Err... I don't buy either of these arguments at all. He's certainly been willing to work diligently and patiently with sponsors, with developers (posting patches and debdiffs for NMUs), and recently he has been helping others with their packaging (see the recent additions of firehol and sanewall to the archive). And if lagging behind upstream is a problem, about 3/4ths of the Debian Java Team should be ejected. If you doubt his contribution because he's trying to do too much or is spread too thin, then I think many Debian contributors are guilty of that. I looked into a random package with bugs, I picked zoo to see what I could find: A recent fix: http://anonscm.debian.org/gitweb/?p=collab-maint/zoo.git;a=commitdiff;h=fd1a30d151cc0b74558af41b09ddafbf9978c16d was only needed because his debian/rules rewrite (for dh support) completely dropped the differentiated target (make linux/linux64) thas was present when he took it over: http://anonscm.debian.org/gitweb/?p=collab-maint/zoo.git;a=commitdiff;h=f138eb3a46635849af0cb04b0099cc3f722203f8 The linked bug reports mention a cleaner solution (i.e. to rely on a built-in define instead of a manually added one) but he didn't update the patch accordingly. He just resurrected the old approach. In the end, I'm far from being convinced that he has a sane technical judgment to be made a full uploading DD. He probably is able to maintain (simple) packages but given that I have serious doubts on his technical judgment, I would not like to see him having archive-wide unsupervised uploads rights. I'm not going to contradict your assessment; that's what this discussion is for. But I will say that there many DDs of varying skill-levels, and that social fit and willingness to contribute (even when it means doing repetitive, thankless tasks like getting rid of dpatch or enabling hardening rules) are also valuable to the community. I have worked with Jari for a several years now and don't have any fear that he will run amok with unsupervised upload rights. However, given the concerns expressed, would those who have stated their objections be more comfortable if Jari was granted DM status? To me, this seems the next logical step if his advocacy is disputed. [1] https://lists.debian.org/debian-release/2010/12/msg00952.html [2] http://lists.debian.org/871undw15g@deep-thought.43-1.org All in all, I think he's already at the right place in the spectrum of possible ways to contribute to Debian. He does a lot of polishing, trivial bug fixing and has probably helped many maintainers to update their
Re: Advocacy for Jari Aalto
Hi, On Wed, 22 May 2013, tony mancill wrote: have an email folder with 80-odd sponsor requests for QA/MIA and maintainer-ACK'd NMUs to complete getting rid of dpatch. But I would I remember having seen some NMU which were not properly maintainer-acked at least (I don't have the reference but I remember someone complaining on -devel). argue that, (a) these things are useful to the distribution (namely, regularity and consistency in packaging practices as opposed to allowing cruft to accumulate), and (b) I don't see other contributors spending so much of their time on these questions of consistency. I certainly agree that they are useful, they are also easy and do not prove much technical ability. On the contrary, in some of the case where some subtleties were involved, he made some mistakes (as I showed). That said mistakes do happen when one is learning. And some tolerance to mistakes is certainly required. He started a mass bug filing without any coordination [2]. This seems to happen from time to time anyway, often perpetrated by DDs with good intentions. Certainly, it's just the accumulation of many (small) things that lead me to be cautious about the opportunity to grant him DD status. The amount of packages that he maintains alone, i.e. outside of any team is also worrying (in terms of willingess and ability to work with others). Quite a few packages are lagging behind new upstreams versions (I count 8 on his DDPO page) but that's to be expected when one maintains so many packages. Err... I don't buy either of these arguments at all. He's certainly been willing to work diligently and patiently with sponsors, with developers (posting patches and debdiffs for NMUs), and recently he has been helping others with their packaging (see the recent additions of firehol and sanewall to the archive). In fact, the amount of packages maintained outside of a team is pretty much a red light for me given that we have had this problem with multiple persons in the past. That said when one is alone in maintaining packages, it's a good idea to not overcommit and I have doubts on the fact that he didn't overcommit... And if lagging behind upstream is a problem, about 3/4ths of the Debian Java Team should be ejected. I agree that lagging behind upstream is a poor critic. :) If you doubt his contribution because he's trying to do too much or is spread too thin, then I think many Debian contributors are guilty of that. That doesn't meant that we should encourage people to continue that trend. We do care about the quality of our packages and we do care about having people whe can fix RC bugs in a timely fashion. I'm not going to contradict your assessment; that's what this discussion is for. But I will say that there many DDs of varying skill-levels, and that social fit and willingness to contribute (even when it means doing repetitive, thankless tasks like getting rid of dpatch or enabling hardening rules) are also valuable to the community. Certainly, they are valuable. that he will run amok with unsupervised upload rights. However, given the concerns expressed, would those who have stated their objections be more comfortable if Jari was granted DM status? To me, this seems the next logical step if his advocacy is disputed. Yes, as I said I believe that he can maintain simple packages. I wasn't aware that he wasn't DM yet. Given the number of packages he's maintaining, it's pretty hard to understand that his sponsors didn't ask him to apply for this already. :) I fear that his willingness to clean up packages might lead to some inappropriate NMUs. That's why I'd rather not give him full unsupervised upload rights, at least not right now. I don't really agree that he's in the right place because he has spend a non-trivial amount of time requesting sponsorship (and then sponsors spend their time sponsoring). This is time he (and they) could spend contributing more directly. For his own packages, certainly, as I said I thought that he already was a DM. For other packages, they are supposed to have a maintainer that can apply patches that he submits. DM status wouldn't alleviate that entirely, but would give him the opportunity to maintain his own packages and participate in team maintenance with other DDs, who can moderate and adjust his DM ACL as they deem fit. Indeed. Cheers, -- Raphaël Hertzog ◈ Debian Developer Get the Debian Administrator's Handbook: → http://debian-handbook.info/get/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-newmaint-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20130523084616.gd24...@x230-buxy.home.ouaza.com
Re: Advocacy for Jari Aalto
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 05/23/2013 04:46 PM, Raphael Hertzog wrote: On the contrary, in some of the case where some subtleties were involved, he made some mistakes (as I showed). Hi Raphael, If you feel uncomfortable, I will not dismiss your view. My experience with Jari was good, though it's only a part of the picture, I'm sure. However, how much time do you think is ok to forget the mistakes, and accept the fact that Jari has learn? In other words, what is the expiry date for the above sentence? :) While it's perfectly fine to oppose to one application, I think it's much better to tell how much time you think is necessary for Jari to learn, and then apply again, or alternatively, tell what he should do to prove himself capable (I'm quite sure you don't intend to block him forever, right?). Thomas -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAlGeGBQACgkQl4M9yZjvmklBtwCeMGKGHwr6tUrMu20vUckGHS/V 1m0An1dxs1I1lJVa5LgAMJlL8H7o6bHh =IzWX -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-newmaint-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/519e1818.1000...@debian.org
Re: Advocacy for Jari Aalto
On 05/23/2013 06:32 PM, Arno Töll wrote: We do disagree that this should happen in a NMU. I think that ownership of packages in Debian is too strong, and that we should have a more liberal approach to NMU. When proposing his NMU on my packages, Jari asked if it was ok, and then I simply applied his patches, and it was fine. If I didn't reply, then in my view, it's perfectly fine to do a (15 days delayed) upload for getting rid of dpatch. Opposing to it is opposing to progress, IMHO. Thomas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-newmaint-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/519e1a13.70...@debian.org
Re: Advocacy for Jari Aalto
On Thu, 23 May 2013, Thomas Goirand wrote: However, how much time do you think is ok to forget the mistakes, and accept the fact that Jari has learn? In other words, what is the expiry date for the above sentence? :) I have no ideas, it's not my call, but Frontdesk/DAM's call. It entirely depends on how future interactions will be and on the kind of contributions that Jari will pursue in the future. Cheers, -- Raphaël Hertzog ◈ Debian Developer Get the Debian Administrator's Handbook: → http://debian-handbook.info/get/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-newmaint-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20130523150024.gc27...@x230-buxy.home.ouaza.com
Re: Advocacy for Jari Aalto
Hi Jari, we are afraid to have to tell you that we currently agree with Raphael's assessment here. Your contributions to Debian are widespread, but there seems to be some attrition between them and the rest of the project. We prefer not to accept your application for Debian Developer right now, but reading what your sponsor Tony Mancill said, we do encourage you to get DM rights, and we would like to encourage you to spend some time to try and blend in a bit more with the rest of the developers. Re: Raphael Hertzog 2013-05-22 20130522081616.gc12...@x230-buxy.home.ouaza.com On Wed, 22 May 2013, Jakub Wilk wrote: * Thomas Goirand tho...@goirand.fr, 2013-05-21, 21:52: I think Jari would be a very valuable asset in Debian, and that he should be made DD. I very much disagree. I'm with Jakub. My interactions with Jari have been rather on the bug reports front, but he tends to care a lot about issues which are not important at all. He doesn't seem to be able to weigh the usefulness of his reports towards the time it costs for others to deal with them. [...] All in all, I think he's already at the right place in the spectrum of possible ways to contribute to Debian. He does a lot of polishing, trivial bug fixing and has probably helped many maintainers to update their packaging or to fix RC bugs while they were MIA. For the Debian Account Managers, Christoph Enrico Joerg signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Advocacy for Jari Aalto
On 05/23/2013 03:30 PM, Thomas Goirand wrote: On 05/23/2013 06:32 PM, Arno Töll wrote: We do disagree that this should happen in a NMU. I think that ownership of packages in Debian is too strong, and that we should have a more liberal approach to NMU. If that is your opinion, discuss it on the relevant lists. It is absolutely not okay to handle against the developer reference just because something - in your opinion - could or should be done differently. It is expected from a DD - as you are - to follow these easy principles in Debian. -- Bernd ZeimetzDebian GNU/Linux Developer http://bzed.dehttp://www.debian.org GPG Fingerprint: ECA1 E3F2 8E11 2432 D485 DD95 EB36 171A 6FF9 435F -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-newmaint-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/519e6cdc.8080...@bzed.de
Re: Advocacy for Jari Aalto
On Thu, 23 May 2013 21:30:59 +0800, Thomas Goirand wrote: On 05/23/2013 06:32 PM, Arno Töll wrote: We do disagree that this should happen in a NMU. I think that ownership of packages in Debian is too strong, and that we should have a more liberal approach to NMU. That is -- as Tony said earlier in this thread -- a separate discussion. Cheers, gregor -- .''`. Homepage: http://info.comodo.priv.at/ - OpenPGP key 0xBB3A68018649AA06 : :' : Debian GNU/Linux user, admin, and developer - http://www.debian.org/ `. `' Member of VIBE!AT SPI, fellow of the Free Software Foundation Europe `- NP: Bruce Springsteen: Two Faces signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Advocacy for Jari Aalto
On 13219 March 1977, Jakub Wilk wrote: * Thomas Goirand tho...@goirand.fr, 2013-05-21, 21:52: I think Jari would be a very valuable asset in Debian, and that he should be made DD. I very much disagree. Noted, but to have any usefulness you want to get a bit more verbose. -- bye, Joerg Homer no function beer well without. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-newmaint-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87r4gzy1so@gkar.ganneff.de
Re: Advocacy for Jari Aalto
Hi, On Wed, 22 May 2013, Jakub Wilk wrote: * Thomas Goirand tho...@goirand.fr, 2013-05-21, 21:52: I think Jari would be a very valuable asset in Debian, and that he should be made DD. I very much disagree. I'm with Jakub. My interactions with Jari have been rather on the bug reports front, but he tends to care a lot about issues which are not important at all. He doesn't seem to be able to weigh the usefulness of his reports towards the time it costs for others to deal with them. He made a number of dubious NMUs (just to upgrade the packaging to newer debhelper/source formats/etc) and he doesn't seem to be aware of the requirements for uploads during the freeze [1]. He started a mass bug filing without any coordination [2]. The amount of packages that he maintains alone, i.e. outside of any team is also worrying (in terms of willingess and ability to work with others). Quite a few packages are lagging behind new upstreams versions (I count 8 on his DDPO page) but that's to be expected when one maintains so many packages. I looked into a random package with bugs, I picked zoo to see what I could find: A recent fix: http://anonscm.debian.org/gitweb/?p=collab-maint/zoo.git;a=commitdiff;h=fd1a30d151cc0b74558af41b09ddafbf9978c16d was only needed because his debian/rules rewrite (for dh support) completely dropped the differentiated target (make linux/linux64) thas was present when he took it over: http://anonscm.debian.org/gitweb/?p=collab-maint/zoo.git;a=commitdiff;h=f138eb3a46635849af0cb04b0099cc3f722203f8 The linked bug reports mention a cleaner solution (i.e. to rely on a built-in define instead of a manually added one) but he didn't update the patch accordingly. He just resurrected the old approach. In the end, I'm far from being convinced that he has a sane technical judgment to be made a full uploading DD. He probably is able to maintain (simple) packages but given that I have serious doubts on his technical judgment, I would not like to see him having archive-wide unsupervised uploads rights. [1] https://lists.debian.org/debian-release/2010/12/msg00952.html [2] http://lists.debian.org/871undw15g@deep-thought.43-1.org All in all, I think he's already at the right place in the spectrum of possible ways to contribute to Debian. He does a lot of polishing, trivial bug fixing and has probably helped many maintainers to update their packaging or to fix RC bugs while they were MIA. Cheers, -- Raphaël Hertzog ◈ Debian Developer Get the Debian Administrator's Handbook: → http://debian-handbook.info/get/ signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Advocacy for Jari Aalto
Hello, I advocate Jari Aalto to become uploading DD. Advocacy text: Indeed, Jari has been very helpful. He sent me patches to move away from dpatch to the new 3.0 (quilt) format, which I had no time to work out myself. This was very helpful. He also helped me with the packaging of yum (as it is often asked: no, yum isn't a replacement of apt in Debian, it is just very useful to setup some RPM based distro in a chroot). He worked out the upload of version 3.4.3-1 into Debian experimental, and managed to find the reason why I was stuck with it (eg: a bug upstream which was fixed only on the upstream Git, not on the released version, if I remember well). Also, I have noticed that Jari maintains an impressive number of packages (87 on his QA page). None of them have open RC bugs. That is to me, a proof that he is capable of doing the work. Also, I don't think it is reasonable to not grant upload rights to someone who maintains that many packages in Debian. For the above reasons, I think Jari would be a very valuable asset in Debian, and that he should be made DD. Cheers, Thomas Thomas Goirand (via nm.debian.org) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-newmaint-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20130521215225.23539.69...@nono.debian.org
Re: Advocacy for Jari Aalto
* Thomas Goirand tho...@goirand.fr, 2013-05-21, 21:52: I think Jari would be a very valuable asset in Debian, and that he should be made DD. I very much disagree. -- Jakub Wilk -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-newmaint-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20130521221220.ga5...@jwilk.net
Re: Advocacy for Jari Aalto
Jakub Wilk dijo [Wed, May 22, 2013 at 12:12:20AM +0200]: * Thomas Goirand tho...@goirand.fr, 2013-05-21, 21:52: I think Jari would be a very valuable asset in Debian, and that he should be made DD. I very much disagree. Please, if you disagree with an advocacy, do so with more arguments than this. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-newmaint-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20130522022740.ga6...@gwolf.org
