Re: please test the numpy package

2009-02-06 Thread Sandro Tosi
On Fri, Feb 6, 2009 at 05:57, Ondrej Certik ond...@certik.cz wrote:
 On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 8:41 PM, Cyril Brulebois k...@debian.org wrote:
 Ondrej Certik ond...@certik.cz (05/02/2009):
 Ok. But we are wasting people's time. I just got another email from a
 Ubuntu user that he will rather consider compiling it for Ubuntu's PPA
 himself, because he cannot use debian experimental. Of course.

 So he needs to invest his time in the package, I need to invest my
 time in the package and the result is that it will not even be in
 unstable anyway. :(

 (Following at home, so I might be missing something obvious.)

 What's the difference between unstable and experimental from that Ubuntu
 user point of view? If the use of a PPA is what I think it is, he has to
 fetch the source, be it from unstable or from experimental, throw it
 into the *builder of his choice, and upload that to the so-called PPA.

 How much time does he need to dget  *builder  dput? That's not what
 I call invest time in the package.

 Ok, you are probably right. So I'll prepare an upload to experimental
 and other people can just dget and pbuilder it.

Is it easier then add an experimental source to /etc/apt/sources.list and

apt-get -t experimental install python-numpy?

What is the problem of using experimental? moreover, even because this
is an experimental package itself, where by-hand operation are done
downloading the tarball, and you request tests before uploading.

Experimental is there to be used, and if users have a bad feeling
using it, the same is to be there when using unstable too (like the
names say).

So, my suggestions is: upload to experimental and let your peers (blog
posts, ml msgs, morse code ;) ) know where to find it and how to
install it.

 And not breaking unstable at this point of the release cycle is
 something that matters, especially for late hotfixes that might be
 needed (and there still are such needs).

 Yes. I am unhappy that unstable gets frozen for such a long time, but
 I understand that with the current setup (e.g. unstable, testing, ..),
 there is probably no other way.

As smarter people than me already explained, unstalbe is not frozen,
but if you upload there lower level packages not targetted to Lenny,
the higher level pkgs, that depend on those lowers, will start
depends on them (via shlibdeps and so) and neither the highers will be
able to transit to testing from unstable but needs t-p-u (that results
in a lt less users testing the package for errors).

Cheers,
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Me at Debian: http://wiki.debian.org/SandroTosi


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Re: please test the numpy package

2009-02-05 Thread Ondrej Certik
  hence no reason to allow for a transition to testing. Moreover, I
  promise that pymvpa will not attempt such thing ;-)

 What about Sphinx 0.4.3? Does it mean we will not try to unblock it?

 Sphinx 0.4.3 is the classic example: It causes more trouble than it
 fixed. For example try building pymvpa's docs with it -- it completely
 fails since sphinx 0.4.3 is not able to find any figures. It works with
 lenny's version and 0.5 though...

Ok, what is the result of this thread? People need the new numpy and
then scipy in Debian, I start getting emails about it.

There are the following options:

1) do nothing until Lenny releases and then upload to unstable
2) upload to unstable and remove the sphinx docs
3) upload to experimental
  3a) keep the sphinx docs (sphinx is in experimental)
  3b) remove the sphinx docs


I'd prefer 2). But Bernd discouraged me to do that, unless I am sure
the new upload won't break anything. But it's a new upstream release,
I think we can be almost sure it will break something -- but imho
nothing that couldn't be fixed easily.

Ondrej


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Re: please test the numpy package

2009-02-05 Thread Sandro Tosi
On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 17:21, Ondrej Certik ond...@certik.cz wrote:
 3) upload to experimental
  3a) keep the sphinx docs (sphinx is in experimental)

I'd recommends this.

Cheers,
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Me at Debian: http://wiki.debian.org/SandroTosi


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Re: please test the numpy package

2009-02-05 Thread Ondrej Certik
On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 9:05 AM, Sandro Tosi mo...@debian.org wrote:
 On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 17:21, Ondrej Certik ond...@certik.cz wrote:
 3) upload to experimental
  3a) keep the sphinx docs (sphinx is in experimental)

 I'd recommends this.

Ok. But we are wasting people's time. I just got another email from a
Ubuntu user that he will rather consider compiling it for Ubuntu's PPA
himself, because he cannot use debian experimental. Of course.

So he needs to invest his time in the package, I need to invest my
time in the package and the result is that it will not even be in
unstable anyway. :(

Ondrej


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Re: please test the numpy package

2009-02-05 Thread Cyril Brulebois
Ondrej Certik ond...@certik.cz (05/02/2009):
 Ok. But we are wasting people's time. I just got another email from a
 Ubuntu user that he will rather consider compiling it for Ubuntu's PPA
 himself, because he cannot use debian experimental. Of course.
 
 So he needs to invest his time in the package, I need to invest my
 time in the package and the result is that it will not even be in
 unstable anyway. :(

(Following at home, so I might be missing something obvious.)

What's the difference between unstable and experimental from that Ubuntu
user point of view? If the use of a PPA is what I think it is, he has to
fetch the source, be it from unstable or from experimental, throw it
into the *builder of his choice, and upload that to the so-called PPA.

How much time does he need to dget  *builder  dput? That's not what
I call “invest time in the package”.

And not breaking unstable at this point of the release cycle is
something that matters, especially for late hotfixes that might be
needed (and there still are such needs).

Mraw,
KiBi.


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Re: please test the numpy package

2009-02-05 Thread Ondrej Certik
On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 8:41 PM, Cyril Brulebois k...@debian.org wrote:
 Ondrej Certik ond...@certik.cz (05/02/2009):
 Ok. But we are wasting people's time. I just got another email from a
 Ubuntu user that he will rather consider compiling it for Ubuntu's PPA
 himself, because he cannot use debian experimental. Of course.

 So he needs to invest his time in the package, I need to invest my
 time in the package and the result is that it will not even be in
 unstable anyway. :(

 (Following at home, so I might be missing something obvious.)

 What's the difference between unstable and experimental from that Ubuntu
 user point of view? If the use of a PPA is what I think it is, he has to
 fetch the source, be it from unstable or from experimental, throw it
 into the *builder of his choice, and upload that to the so-called PPA.

 How much time does he need to dget  *builder  dput? That's not what
 I call invest time in the package.

Ok, you are probably right. So I'll prepare an upload to experimental
and other people can just dget and pbuilder it.

 And not breaking unstable at this point of the release cycle is
 something that matters, especially for late hotfixes that might be
 needed (and there still are such needs).

Yes. I am unhappy that unstable gets frozen for such a long time, but
I understand that with the current setup (e.g. unstable, testing, ..),
there is probably no other way.

Ondrej


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Re: please test the numpy package

2009-01-26 Thread Michael Hanke
On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 08:15:47AM +0100, Adeodato Simó wrote:
 * Michael Hanke [Mon, 26 Jan 2009 06:37:13 +0100]:
 
  I'd be curious to know which/how many packages in lenny actually
  build-depend on sphinx. Does anyone know a way to quickly determine
  that -- it might provide some facts about the situation we are
  speculating about.
 
 % zcat /org/ftp.debian.org/ftp/dists/lenny/*/source/Sources.gz |
   grep-dctrl -FBuild-Depends python-sphinx -ns package
 pymvpa
 python-django

Thanks a lot!

This is exactly what I suspected. None of those packages has RC-bugs,
hence no reason to allow for a transition to testing. Moreover, I
promise that pymvpa will not attempt such thing ;-)


 On sid there are a few more:
 
 jinja2
 matplotlib
 mpmath
 pymvpa
 python-django
 python-django-treebeard
 python-pysqlite2
 python-tempita
 python-webob
 rpy2
 webtest
Even for those there is no RC bug (although none of them will be part of
lenny anyway).

Given these facts, I'd very much appreciate an upload of latest sphinx to
unstable -- making complicated experiments with numpy's (and other docs)
obsolete.

Thanks in advance.


Michael


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Re: please test the numpy package

2009-01-26 Thread Piotr Ożarowski
[Michael Hanke, 2009-01-26]
 On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 08:15:47AM +0100, Adeodato Simó wrote:
  * Michael Hanke [Mon, 26 Jan 2009 06:37:13 +0100]:
   I'd be curious to know which/how many packages in lenny actually
   build-depend on sphinx. Does anyone know a way to quickly determine
   that -- it might provide some facts about the situation we are
   speculating about.
  
  % zcat /org/ftp.debian.org/ftp/dists/lenny/*/source/Sources.gz |
grep-dctrl -FBuild-Depends python-sphinx -ns package
  pymvpa
  python-django
 
 Thanks a lot!
 
 This is exactly what I suspected. None of those packages has RC-bugs,

Are you sure? It doesn't have reported RC bugs, yes ;-P

 hence no reason to allow for a transition to testing. Moreover, I
 promise that pymvpa will not attempt such thing ;-)

What about Sphinx 0.4.3? Does it mean we will not try to unblock it?

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Re: please test the numpy package

2009-01-26 Thread Michael Hanke
On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 10:47:02AM +0100, Piotr Ożarowski wrote:
 [Michael Hanke, 2009-01-26]
  On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 08:15:47AM +0100, Adeodato Simó wrote:
   * Michael Hanke [Mon, 26 Jan 2009 06:37:13 +0100]:
I'd be curious to know which/how many packages in lenny actually
build-depend on sphinx. Does anyone know a way to quickly determine
that -- it might provide some facts about the situation we are
speculating about.
   
   % zcat /org/ftp.debian.org/ftp/dists/lenny/*/source/Sources.gz |
 grep-dctrl -FBuild-Depends python-sphinx -ns package
   pymvpa
   python-django
  
  Thanks a lot!
  
  This is exactly what I suspected. None of those packages has RC-bugs,
 
 Are you sure? It doesn't have reported RC bugs, yes ;-P
;-)

This is of course always implied.

  hence no reason to allow for a transition to testing. Moreover, I
  promise that pymvpa will not attempt such thing ;-)
 
 What about Sphinx 0.4.3? Does it mean we will not try to unblock it?

Sphinx 0.4.3 is the classic example: It causes more trouble than it
fixed. For example try building pymvpa's docs with it -- it completely
fails since sphinx 0.4.3 is not able to find any figures. It works with
lenny's version and 0.5 though...


http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=502397#15


Michael




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Sphinx (was: Re: please test the numpy package)

2009-01-26 Thread Piotr Ożarowski
[Michael Hanke, 2009-01-26]
 On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 10:47:02AM +0100, Piotr Ożarowski wrote:
  What about Sphinx 0.4.3? Does it mean we will not try to unblock it?
 
 Sphinx 0.4.3 is the classic example: It causes more trouble than it
 fixed. For example try building pymvpa's docs with it -- it completely
 fails since sphinx 0.4.3 is not able to find any figures. It works with
 lenny's version and 0.5 though...
 
 
 http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=502397#15

yeah, I forgot to fix it in -1 (I thought it's already fixed in our repo
so worked on other issues only), that's one of the reasons I didn't ask
to unblock it
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Re: please test the numpy package

2009-01-25 Thread Piotr Ożarowski
[Ondrej Certik, 2009-01-25]
 There is a problem with documentation, that it depends on sphinx-0.5,
 which is currently only in experimental. And also upstream doesn't
 have it in the tarball. I originally fixed that by
 adding a new target into debian/rules, that downloaded the upstream
 tgz, unpacked, eported the doc/ directory from upstream svn and then
 packaged it again. But since it still doesn't build in pure sid, I
 rather fixed the build with the current upstream tarball.

python-numpy has many reverse dependencies[1] - how about uploading it
to experimental for now? This way you'll have Sphinx 0.5.x available.

If you really want to upload it to unstable, build the docs using Sphinx
from experimental and include them in the upstream source tarball for
now (add .ds to upstream version, get-orig-source rule and a
README.Debian-source file in the new tarball explaining that you've
added the docs and how to regenerate it[2])

[1] see `apt-cache rdepends python-numpy`
[2] `./debian/rules get-orig-source`, python-sphinx from experimental installed


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Re: please test the numpy package

2009-01-25 Thread Kumar Appaiah
On Sun, Jan 25, 2009 at 12:53:05AM -0800, Ondrej Certik wrote:
 Hi,
 
 I finally packaged the newest uptream and committed all fixes into our
 svn repo for numpy. Kumar (or others), do you think you could please
 test the package?
 There is a problem with documentation, that it depends on sphinx-0.5,
 which is currently only in experimental. And also upstream doesn't
 have it in the tarball. I originally fixed that by
 adding a new target into debian/rules, that downloaded the upstream
 tgz, unpacked, eported the doc/ directory from upstream svn and then
 packaged it again. But since it still doesn't build in pure sid, I
 rather fixed the build with the current upstream tarball.

Thanks Ondrej, and sorry for not helping out with this earlier.

I built the package and tested it, and it seems fine; I ran some of my
matplotlib+SciPy examples, and they seemed to run all
right. numpy.test() also seemed OK.

I guess this can be uploaded to experimental with the new Sphinx
documentation, as Piotr says.

Thanks again.

Kumar
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Re: please test the numpy package

2009-01-25 Thread Matthias Klose
Ondrej Certik schrieb:
 Hi,
 
 I finally packaged the newest uptream and committed all fixes into our
 svn repo for numpy. Kumar (or others), do you think you could please
 test the package?

numpy becomes big. see https://launchpad.net/bugs/309215. In the past the parts
depending on external numeric libraries were splitted out into a separate
package, but the package structure now makes it difficult to keep this split.
Please consider splitting out a python-multiarray (seems to be straightforward,
maybe keep it in its own name space) or a python-numpy-core/-base package
(unsure where to make the split).

 There is a problem with documentation, that it depends on sphinx-0.5,
 which is currently only in experimental. And also upstream doesn't
 have it in the tarball. I originally fixed that by
 adding a new target into debian/rules, that downloaded the upstream
 tgz, unpacked, eported the doc/ directory from upstream svn and then
 packaged it again. But since it still doesn't build in pure sid, I
 rather fixed the build with the current upstream tarball.

As long as you can fulfill the dependencies with build dependencies all should
be ok. However python itself now uses sphinx from the sphinx trunk. very nice 
:-/


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Re: please test the numpy package

2009-01-25 Thread Bernd Zeimetz
Hi,

Ondrej Certik wrote:
 I really want it in unstable. It's because the new scipy won't build
 without this upload etc. and many people are just waiting for it. It's
 a legitimate question though, but so far I understood that this is
 what unstable is for. Otherwise people will have to move from unstable
 to experimental to get the latest packages. Is this what we want? I
 prefer it in unstable, but I am open to other opinions.

I didn't look at the package, but if I remember right a lot of packages depend
on numpy, so I would wait with an upload until Lenny is released definitely,
except you're absolutely sure that the new version won't break other packages
in unstable and won't mess up the migration path fro unstable to testing for
them in case there's something to fix. People who want to or need to use the
package in the meantime can use experimental, that's what experimental is for.



Cheers,

Bernd

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Re: please test the numpy package

2009-01-25 Thread Emilio Pozuelo Monfort
Ondrej Certik wrote:
 I really want it in unstable. It's because the new scipy won't build
 without this upload etc. and many people are just waiting for it. It's
 a legitimate question though, but so far I understood that this is
 what unstable is for. Otherwise people will have to move from unstable
 to experimental to get the latest packages. Is this what we want? I
 prefer it in unstable, but I am open to other opinions.

We have packaged GNOME 2.24 in experimental and that has worked fine. I don't
think there's a problem with that while Lenny is not released.

Cheers,
Emilio



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Re: please test the numpy package

2009-01-25 Thread Ondrej Certik
On Sun, Jan 25, 2009 at 11:01 AM, Bernd Zeimetz be...@bzed.de wrote:
 Hi,

 Ondrej Certik wrote:
 I really want it in unstable. It's because the new scipy won't build
 without this upload etc. and many people are just waiting for it. It's
 a legitimate question though, but so far I understood that this is
 what unstable is for. Otherwise people will have to move from unstable
 to experimental to get the latest packages. Is this what we want? I
 prefer it in unstable, but I am open to other opinions.

 I didn't look at the package, but if I remember right a lot of packages depend
 on numpy, so I would wait with an upload until Lenny is released definitely,
 except you're absolutely sure that the new version won't break other packages
 in unstable and won't mess up the migration path fro unstable to testing for
 them in case there's something to fix. People who want to or need to use the
 package in the meantime can use experimental, that's what experimental is for.

Well, one can never be sure it won't mess up anything. In fact, I
think one can be sure that by every upload of new upstream, there will
be something that breaks, by definition.

So if I understand it well, normally this is what unstable is for, but
once it is frozen, one should use experimental for new upstream
uploads?

Ondrej


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Re: please test the numpy package

2009-01-25 Thread Piotr Ożarowski
[Michael Hanke, 2009-01-25]
 To me the question is: Why is sphinx 0.5 in experimental not unstable?
 This issue does not only affect numpy, as sphinx 0.4.3 has some problems
 which prevent successful building of docs (e.g. image/figure handling
 bug) -- and at least this one is solved in 0.5.

if you will help me convince release managers to unblock it, I will
upload 0.5 to unstable (if Mikhail will not protest).
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Re: please test the numpy package

2009-01-25 Thread Ondrej Certik
On Sun, Jan 25, 2009 at 1:47 PM, Piotr Ożarowski pi...@debian.org wrote:
 [Michael Hanke, 2009-01-25]
 To me the question is: Why is sphinx 0.5 in experimental not unstable?
 This issue does not only affect numpy, as sphinx 0.4.3 has some problems
 which prevent successful building of docs (e.g. image/figure handling
 bug) -- and at least this one is solved in 0.5.

 if you will help me convince release managers to unblock it, I will
 upload 0.5 to unstable (if Mikhail will not protest).

So release managers are blocking any uploads of sphinx to unstable?

Ondrej


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Re: please test the numpy package

2009-01-25 Thread Piotr Ożarowski
[Ondrej Certik, 2009-01-25]
 On Sun, Jan 25, 2009 at 1:47 PM, Piotr Ożarowski pi...@debian.org wrote:
  if you will help me convince release managers to unblock it, I will
  upload 0.5 to unstable (if Mikhail will not protest).
 
 So release managers are blocking any uploads of sphinx to unstable?

no - *I'm* blocking it. I know it provides new features that testing
version doesn't provide and I don't want other maintainers to use them
for packages that they intend for testing (but to test them more
carefully, they're using unstable, not testing-proposed-updates)
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Re: please test the numpy package

2009-01-25 Thread Michael Hanke

On Sun, Jan 25, 2009 at 10:47:06PM +0100, Piotr Ożarowski wrote:
 [Michael Hanke, 2009-01-25]
  To me the question is: Why is sphinx 0.5 in experimental not unstable?
  This issue does not only affect numpy, as sphinx 0.4.3 has some problems
  which prevent successful building of docs (e.g. image/figure handling
  bug) -- and at least this one is solved in 0.5.
 
 if you will help me convince release managers to unblock it, I will
 upload 0.5 to unstable (if Mikhail will not protest).

I cannot think of any argument in favor of sphinx transitioning from
unstable/experimental to testing. At the same time, I have a hard time
seeing the need for a full blown unstabletesting transition for a
package that aims to become part of lenny (i.e. preventing a direct
upload to testing-proposed-updates).


I'd be curious to know which/how many packages in lenny actually
build-depend on sphinx. Does anyone know a way to quickly determine
that -- it might provide some facts about the situation we are
speculating about.


Michael

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Re: please test the numpy package

2009-01-25 Thread Adeodato Simó
* Michael Hanke [Mon, 26 Jan 2009 06:37:13 +0100]:

 I'd be curious to know which/how many packages in lenny actually
 build-depend on sphinx. Does anyone know a way to quickly determine
 that -- it might provide some facts about the situation we are
 speculating about.

% zcat /org/ftp.debian.org/ftp/dists/lenny/*/source/Sources.gz |
  grep-dctrl -FBuild-Depends python-sphinx -ns package
pymvpa
python-django

On sid there are a few more:

jinja2
matplotlib
mpmath
pymvpa
python-django
python-django-treebeard
python-pysqlite2
python-tempita
python-webob
rpy2
webtest

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Debian Developer  adeodato at debian.org
 
Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place. Therefore,
if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by definition, not
smart enough to debug it.
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