Re: Bug#960265: s390x install Debootstrap warning: Failure while configuring base packages. s390-tools depends on perl:any.
On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 05:11:02PM +0300, Adrian Bunk wrote: > Fact is that the s390x port is different from all other ports in Debian. > And it is causing extra work to support such a port. > Which is an even bigger problem when there are no porters doing this work. OK - I see that there is no chance to save this arch in Release. It seems that decision has been made. I'm wondering why the architecture had been ported in previous releases and who did it. Why to start porting if it is unnecessery for anyone. > > Two porters are the minimum requirement for release architectures. > > Just yesterday there was a question from a Debian maintainer sent to the > s390 list about an s390x-only problem in a package[1]: > > Any of you have any idea why the threads on s390x behave differently > than all the other architectures? > > I do not know whether there is anything special about threading on s390x > compared to other Linux architectures, but porters are expected to know. > > If there is a problem like for example kernel crashes with the Debian > kernel on a Debian machine like a buildd for a release architecture, > someone has to debug the problem swiftly. > > Debian does not have a service agreement with IBM for maintaining the > Debian kernel on s390x, it is the duty of the s390x porters to maintain > the Debian kernel and debug problems in the Debian kernel. > Is any porter available for that platform? Based on your previous messages I assume that no - the last release was done by automata (it explain also why installation media lacks of some packages and installation process fails). Sorry to are real porters if they exits for previous sentence. Yes I saw this question - for me personally, the problem is that I don't know all aspects of porting, I cannot even try to answer, because I don't know where and how to check described bug. Yes I know, today creating software like Debian (and other) means to be tribe in the machine. Probably I have to spend long time to understand all dependencies, systems, access right to be a bit like porter. > Debian is a volunteer project. > s390x is a business-to-business affair. > > Other ports have a community of people who have a Raspberry Pi or > an old hppa workstation at home. > > Nonne has an old mainframe at home for keeping Debian running on it > as a hobby. That is not true - you just don't know such persons :-) > > How many companies are buying a mainframe without any software support > contracts with IBM or other companies? > > With that kind of financial investment you usually want a Linux > distribution that is supported by IBM, and buy support for that > distribution from the company behind the distribution. > Yes definitly - if make businnes you have to pay. No other rules. > >... > > > IMHO it would be best if s390x would become a non-release architecture > > > in ports. > A Debian port disappears when there are not enough porters with the > necessary skills keeping it working. > > For non-release architectures one dedicated person is enough. So how to help? > > > (and some people abandon it or switch to Ubuntu > >... > > What people are you talking about? > > Philipp made a good point that the Debian s390x port might already have > no users at all left. > Hmm - so I'm dead, nor exist. And in minimum one other who I know directly. Anyway - once again - thanks for everyone who spend time (and money) for Debian. Piotr
Bug#960265: s390x install Debootstrap warning: Failure while configuring base packages. s390-tools depends on perl:any.
On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 11:24:11AM +0300, Adrian Bunk wrote: > On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 12:17:39AM +0200, Vctl Piotr Kolasinski wrote: > >... > > In my opinion the big problem may be w ith access to the real platform > > (currently I have access and possibilities but I don't know how long). > > Of course we have emulators like hercules (which I use from very long > > time) and know qemu s390 port (only with virtio, not tested by me), > > but it is probably not enough in power (as long as yo don't have very > > powerful emulation platform or use cross-compile). Anyway if Debian > > maintainers have access to valid build environment, I think you should > > not remove the architecture. > > Hardware is not the problem. > Forcing 1000 volunteers in Debian to support a port that has no porters > and no users is the problem. > > Debian has an s390x porterbox that is available to all Debian developers. > For normal package development this is sufficient. > > The s390x port has some unique problems. > And with a390x as release architecture package maintainers in Debian are > supposed to fix these problems in their packages if they want their > packages in the next Debian release. > > Forcing volunteers to do unpleasant work like porting to s390x is making > it a more attractive choice to stop contributing to Debian. I understand your point. I just started to read about Debian maintainers, developers, porteboxes etc., I will not discuss with you. My mail was sent because I use Debian in any possible place, advertise it, treat as stable, good alternative to other distros. From other site I didn't know about unique problems for that arch. > > s390x is the only big endian release architecture. > Big endian hardware has become exotic, and some of the younger > maintainers in Debian might have never seen big endian hardware. > Endian problems are common problems in packages, > and porting software to support big endian can be a real pain. > Is that not why Linux is so popular - portability? > s390x is the only headless release architecture. > This was a real pain for the Debian GNOME maintainers already before > the last release, without any support from s390x porters on fixing > this issue.[1] I don't agree. Fact, that s390x doesn't have direct display doesn't mean that graphical tools are not used. Is really good way to thinking about Linux as desktop system only? In my daily work we have much more Linux boxes in VM (as host and target) then desktop system (where Windows is the king and never will change in next 20 years). I still remember that X Window architecture assume remote operations and local Xserver is only one of a few possible configurations. Of course if we assume, that we produce desktop system, the s390x is not composing with that. I use Debian in many instances - only two of them I access directly (using graphics), the rest is some kind of "server" (but I still can reach then graphically using vnc protocol). > > A port like s390x with unique problems is only sustainable when several > people with good knowledge of Debian, s390x hardware and the Linux > kernel have a long-term commitment of swiftly supporting everyone in > Debian with s390x problems. Good point - the question is why there is not so many people with "good knowledge of Debian" in Mainframe environment? How many of potential mainframe users know that Debian supports s390x architecture? If not many - why? About "s390x hardware and the Linux kernel" - I'm just only advanced user (I hope), but as I know - the kernel support in this area is mostly done by IBM. Does someone can tell me how many changes have to be done in Debian and what kind for the kernel? Does we really need many people in this area? > > IMHO it would be best if s390x would become a non-release architecture > in ports. My previous message was sent because I worry, that if this architecture will become not-release, after short time disappear (and some people abandon it or switch to Ubuntu - as long as it exists). > > Architectures in ports are autobuilt like release architectures, > but there is no pressure on the volunteers maintaining packages > in Debian to spend their time on supporting these architectures. > Other architectures like m68k, big endian powerpc, alpha, hppa > and ia64 that also tend to have one dedicated porter each but > not many users left are also in ports. Here is my lack of knowledge - I just started to dig Debian ecosystem as supporter, I don't know too much about preparing releases, building packages etc. Last time when I had problems with installation on Mainframe, I have learned many things about Debian installer, but ... I even don't know where to start reading about it be useful for others. Anyway I want to be active Debian user (partially on the Mainframe) and I want to help. Anyway thank for support till this time. Piotr
Say hello to debian-s390 community
Hello everybody Let's me introduce. My name is Piotr Kolasinski, I've been Mainframe System Programmers since 1998, Linux user since 1994 (Slackware - plenty of diskettes) and Debian user since 2000 (Potato). I've implemented Linux on the Mainframe in some places in Poland, and supported Linux installation for IBM as the contractor. First installation was done by me on G5 S/390 IBM processor (named CPC - Central Processor Complex) on bare metal. Later installations were mostly under IBM virtualisation system VM (now z/VM), partially on dedicated CPU engines named IFL (Integrated Facility for Linux). Two weeks ago I started installation of Debian on real IBM Mainframe and fought with many problems on that. So I had wrote message to this list (from different source email address), but I didn't receive any answer (I don't blame anyone :-) ). So I tried to find more information on Debian wiki and I found only short and outdated information about s390 port. I though that I can help. On my request for joining to the wiki answered Paul Wise, proposing to join as the contributor. In short - that is why I'm here. I hope that I can help in some areas, maybe testing or writing some wiki pages, maybe in other ways. I know the Mainframe architecture, wrote above 5 years programs in C, later switching to Java. My knowledge is not only about Mainframe but also another areas (middleware, mostly IBM), Java ecosystem, Unix administration and programming, some Perl knowledge, Python, Rexx and others). My experience with Mainframe include also assembler (what is must to know for system programmer), architecture details (address spaces, addressing, cross-memory services etc.), other hardware (DASD - mainframe disks, tapes, terminals etc.) and virtualisation system z/VM. I hope that I can help - Debian to my knowledge is the one of two independent (not commercial) distributions (another is Ubuntu). Two others are Suse and RedHat, but there is no alternatives freely available (CentOS and Fedora doesn't provide s390x anymore). So in my opinion it is very important to keep and support that architecture, especially to give the people the choice. Kind regards Piotr (aka nome)
Say Hello to debian-s390 list community
Hello everybody Let's me introduce. My name is Piotr Kolasinski, I've been Mainframe System Programmers since 1998, Linux user since 1994 (Slackware - plenty of diskettes) and Debian user since 2000 (Potato). I've implemented Linux on the Mainframe in some places in Poland, and supported Linux installation for IBM as the contractor. First installation was done by me on G5 S/390 IBM processor (named CPC - Central Processor Complex) on bare metal. Later installations were mostly under IBM virtualisation system VM (now z/VM), partially on dedicated CPU engines named IFL (Integrated Facility for Linux). Two weeks ago I started installation of Debian on real IBM Mainframe and fought with many problems on that. So I had wrote message to this list (from different source email address), but I didn't receive any answer (I don't blame anyone :-) ). So I tried to find more information on Debian wiki and I found only short and outdated information about s390 port. I though that I can help. On my request for joining to the wiki answered Paul Wise, proposing to join as the contributor. In short - that is why I'm here. I hope that I can help in some areas, maybe testing or writing some wiki pages, maybe in other ways. I know the Mainframe architecture, wrote above 5 years programs in C, later switching to Java. My knowledge is not only about Mainframe but also another areas (middleware, mostly IBM), Java ecosystem, Unix administration and programming, some Perl knowledge, Python, Rexx and others). My experience with Mainframe include also assembler (what is must to know for system programmer), architecture details (address spaces, addressing, cross-memory services etc.), other hardware (DASD - mainframe disks, tapes, terminals etc.) and virtualisation system z/VM. I hope that I can help - Debian to my knowledge is the one of two independent (not commercial) distributions (another is Ubuntu). Two others are Suse and RedHat, but there is no alternatives freely available (CentOS and Fedora doesn't provide s390x anymore). So in my opinion it is very important to keep and support that architecture, especially to give the people the choice. Kind regards Piotr (aka nome)