Re: Mailing list policy change?

2010-03-20 Thread Chris Bannister
On Fri, Mar 19, 2010 at 09:17:56AM -0400, Stephen Powell wrote:
 Does this mean that it is OK to CC people now, without a CC
 being requested?  Or do many people read the list via the web
 interface to the mailing list archives without being subscribed
 and will still get annoyed if they are CCed?  I need some
 guidance here.  There have been a number of times that I have
 not CCed people because they didn't explicitly ask for it,
 but because they thought their problem was now solved, they
 were not looking at the list anymore and therefore didn't see
 my follow-up post offering a correction to an earlier mistake,
 etc.
 
 I don't want people to miss posts because they aren't looking.
 But neither do I want to annoy people.

It is policy not to CC unless explicitly requested, but sometimes
discretion is called for. If a poster is obviously a newbie (you can
usually tell by the content but also if the poster has not posted
before.) it shouldn't hurt, although this is fairly rare.

A lot of other lists CC on principle. The argument being that it is more
important that the recipent receive the message in a timely manner (they
may be subscribed to several mailing lists and not read them as often as
their personal mail.

-- 
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Re: Mailing list policy change?

2010-03-20 Thread Snood

On Fri, Mar 19, 2010 at 09:17:56AM -0400, Stephen Powell wrote:

Does this mean that it is OK to CC people now, without a CC
being requested?  Or do many people read the list via the web
interface to the mailing list archives without being subscribed
and will still get annoyed if they are CCed?  I need some
guidance here.  There have been a number of times that I have
not CCed people because they didn't explicitly ask for it,
but because they thought their problem was now solved, they
were not looking at the list anymore and therefore didn't see
my follow-up post offering a correction to an earlier mistake,
etc.

I don't want people to miss posts because they aren't looking.
But neither do I want to annoy people.


It is policy not to CC unless explicitly requested, but sometimes
discretion is called for. If a poster is obviously a newbie (you can
usually tell by the content but also if the poster has not posted
before.) it shouldn't hurt, although this is fairly rare.

A lot of other lists CC on principle. The argument being that it is more
important that the recipent receive the message in a timely manner (they
may be subscribed to several mailing lists and not read them as often as
their personal mail.


I'm afraid I messed up repeatedly on this when I made my first posts to 
this list. Between the number of different sets of preferences amongst 
the newsgroups to which I'm subscribing and getting used to a new mail 
client (went from Claws to Icedove) I'm probably causing a lot of 
disruption. (Hope I did it right this time.)



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Re: Mailing list policy change?

2010-03-20 Thread Joey Hess
Paul E Condon wrote:
 As a matter of fact, the current rule is helpful to me in assessing
 the advice that I get. If I get a CC, I think this guy isn't a real
 DD --- I wonder if he knows what he's talking about.

Well, the only problem with that thought is that if you take a quick
look at, say, actual DD posts to debian-devel, you will find rampant
CCing. You will also probably find that DDs on debian-user sometimes CC
users who ask a question, but may not be subscribed to this list.

There are well-known and well-documented procmail and maildrop rules to
drop duplicate mails due to CCs. Anyone who is very bothered by CCs
probably uses those tools. BTW, a common result of using those rules is
for CC'd messages to only show up in the main inbox, rather than in a
mailing list's folder[1]. Which can be convenient, or annoying, depending.

So the existence of the 'no CC' rule in the mailing list code of contact
is probably best understood as being similar to the speed limit: A
well-intentioned rule, often ignored by many to most, that allows
dealing with grevious offenders, but at the cost of allowing the net
police to single out anyone who is just following along, and make their
day miserable.

(Which also explains the following rule in the code of conduct, about
not complaining publically when the CC rule is broken.)

-- 
see shy jo

[1] Because the CC'd copy typically arrives first, and is lacking the
mailing list headers.


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Mailing list policy change?

2010-03-19 Thread Stephen Powell
Historically, debian-user, and all of the Debian mailing lists,
have had a rule that you post and reply only to the list, and that
you do not CC anybody unless they explicitly request a CC.  I have
been following that rule.  However ...

Recently, someone posted something to the list and CCed me.
Since I am subscribed to the list, I get a private e-mail for
each posting to the list.  If a poster also CCs me, I have been used
to getting two copies: one directly (via the CC) and one indirectly
(via the list server).  But on this occasion, I got only one copy.

That makes me wonder if the list server has been smartened up
recently.  Perhaps a list subscriber is no longer sent a copy of
a posting if his e-mail address is explicitly listed in the TO,
CC, or BCC fields.  Is that the case?  If so, I wonder why that
change was not made long ago.  It would eliminate a lot of problems.
We could CC the poster without fear that he will get two copies
and thus complain.

Does this mean that it is OK to CC people now, without a CC
being requested?  Or do many people read the list via the web
interface to the mailing list archives without being subscribed
and will still get annoyed if they are CCed?  I need some
guidance here.  There have been a number of times that I have
not CCed people because they didn't explicitly ask for it,
but because they thought their problem was now solved, they
were not looking at the list anymore and therefore didn't see
my follow-up post offering a correction to an earlier mistake,
etc.

I don't want people to miss posts because they aren't looking.
But neither do I want to annoy people.

-- 
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 : :'  :
 `. `'`
   `-


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Re: Mailing list policy change?

2010-03-19 Thread Thierry Chatelet
On Friday 19 March 2010 14:17:56 Stephen Powell wrote:
 There have been a number of times that I have
 not CCed people because they didn't explicitly ask for it,


That' s it. Continue!
Thierry


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Re: Mailing list policy change?

2010-03-19 Thread Johan Grönqvist

Stephen Powell skrev:
  Does this mean that it is OK to CC people now, without a CC

being requested?  Or do many people read the list via the web
interface to the mailing list archives without being subscribed
and will still get annoyed if they are CCed?  



As a humble user, I do not know, but I want to mention two things:

1) The debian homepage at 
http://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct asks not to CC 
unless explicitly requested to.


2) At least I read the debian lists via the nntp-interface at 
news.gmane.org, and find that to be a very convenient way, as I can 
access the list (using icedove) without getting lots of mails to my 
private email account(s). Thus I am not subscribed to any debian lists, 
but read more than a dozen of them. I have no idea how common that 
practice is, and gmane.org seems not to provide such statistics.



Regards

Johan


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Re: Mailing list policy change?

2010-03-19 Thread Andrei Popescu
On Fri,19.Mar.10, 09:17:56, Stephen Powell wrote:
 
 Recently, someone posted something to the list and CCed me.
 Since I am subscribed to the list, I get a private e-mail for
 each posting to the list.  If a poster also CCs me, I have been used
 to getting two copies: one directly (via the CC) and one indirectly
 (via the list server).  But on this occasion, I got only one copy.
 
How long has it been? The mail could be stuck on its way (greylisting) 
or some spam filter.

 That makes me wonder if the list server has been smartened up
 recently.  Perhaps a list subscriber is no longer sent a copy of
 a posting if his e-mail address is explicitly listed in the TO,
 CC, or BCC fields.  Is that the case?  If so, I wonder why that
 change was not made long ago.  It would eliminate a lot of problems.
 We could CC the poster without fear that he will get two copies
 and thus complain.

I personally wouldn't like such a change. I very much prefer to 
sometimes get CC'd by mistake (I usually just ignore it).

Regards,
Andrei
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Re: Mailing list policy change?

2010-03-19 Thread Camaleón
On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 09:17:56 -0400, Stephen Powell wrote:

(...)

 Recently, someone posted something to the list and CCed me. Since I am
 subscribed to the list, I get a private e-mail for each posting to the
 list.  If a poster also CCs me, I have been used to getting two copies:
 one directly (via the CC) and one indirectly (via the list server).  But
 on this occasion, I got only one copy.

And the copy you got, was the e-mail coming from the list server or was 
the direct reply? :-?

 That makes me wonder if the list server has been smartened up
 recently.  

I hope not :-)

I prefer me (the user) to choose what to do with those e-mails.

 Perhaps a list subscriber is no longer sent a copy of a
 posting if his e-mail address is explicitly listed in the TO, CC, or BCC
 fields.  Is that the case?  If so, I wonder why that change was not made
 long ago.  It would eliminate a lot of problems. We could CC the poster
 without fear that he will get two copies and thus complain.

I have to monitor that :-?

 Does this mean that it is OK to CC people now, without a CC being
 requested?  

That would be quite annoying.

 Or do many people read the list via the web interface to the
 mailing list archives without being subscribed and will still get
 annoyed if they are CCed?  

I am not susbcribed, but I read/follow the list (and send posts) via 
Gmane.

 I need some guidance here.  There have been a
 number of times that I have not CCed people because they didn't
 explicitly ask for it, but because they thought their problem was now
 solved, they were not looking at the list anymore and therefore didn't
 see my follow-up post offering a correction to an earlier mistake, etc.
 
 I don't want people to miss posts because they aren't looking. But
 neither do I want to annoy people.

If people do not read the list is up to them, don't you think? :-)

Greetings,

-- 
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Re: Mailing list policy change?

2010-03-19 Thread Stephen Powell
On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 10:16:40 -0400 (EDT), Andrei Popescu wrote:
 On Fri,19.Mar.10, 09:17:56, Stephen Powell wrote:
 Recently, someone posted something to the list and CCed me.
 Since I am subscribed to the list, I get a private e-mail for
 each posting to the list.  If a poster also CCs me, I have been used
 to getting two copies: one directly (via the CC) and one indirectly
 (via the list server).  But on this occasion, I got only one copy.
  
 How long has it been?  The mail could be stuck on its way (greylisting) 
 or some spam filter.

It's been about a day, I think.

-- 
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 : :'  :
 `. `'`
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Re: Mailing list policy change?

2010-03-19 Thread Mark Allums

On 3/19/2010 8:17 AM, Stephen Powell wrote:

Historically, debian-user, and all of the Debian mailing lists,
have had a rule that you post and reply only to the list, and that
you do not CC anybody unless they explicitly request a CC.  I have
been following that rule.  However ...

Recently, someone posted something to the list and CCed me.
Since I am subscribed to the list, I get a private e-mail for
each posting to the list.  If a poster also CCs me, I have been used
to getting two copies: one directly (via the CC) and one indirectly
(via the list server).  But on this occasion, I got only one copy.

That makes me wonder if the list server has been smartened up



No, probably more and more people have a mail UA that has reply-to-list, 
like Thunderbird 3.


Or, your other message got lost in the 'net.

Or something.


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Re: Mailing list policy change?

2010-03-19 Thread Stephen Powell
On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 10:23:44 -0400 (EDT), Camaleón wrote:
 On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 09:17:56 -0400, Stephen Powell wrote:
 Recently, someone posted something to the list and CCed me. Since I am
 subscribed to the list, I get a private e-mail for each posting to the
 list.  If a poster also CCs me, I have been used to getting two copies:
 one directly (via the CC) and one indirectly (via the list server).  But
 on this occasion, I got only one copy.
 
 And the copy you got, was the e-mail coming from the list server or was 
 the direct reply? :-?
 

It's not easy to tell.  Mail received from the list server always appears
to my e-mail client to have been sent directly from the sender.  The
TO and CC fields are not edited from the original e-mail.  If I examined
the internet headers directly, I might be able to tell.  But I've
already deleted it.

-- 
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 : :'  :
 `. `'`
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Re: Mailing list policy change?

2010-03-19 Thread Paul E Condon
On 20100319_091756, Stephen Powell wrote:
 Historically, debian-user, and all of the Debian mailing lists,
 have had a rule that you post and reply only to the list, and that
 you do not CC anybody unless they explicitly request a CC.  I have
 been following that rule.  However ...
 
 Recently, someone posted something to the list and CCed me.
 Since I am subscribed to the list, I get a private e-mail for
 each posting to the list.  If a poster also CCs me, I have been used
 to getting two copies: one directly (via the CC) and one indirectly
 (via the list server).  But on this occasion, I got only one copy.
 
 That makes me wonder if the list server has been smartened up
 recently.  Perhaps a list subscriber is no longer sent a copy of
 a posting if his e-mail address is explicitly listed in the TO,
 CC, or BCC fields.  Is that the case?  If so, I wonder why that
 change was not made long ago.  It would eliminate a lot of problems.
 We could CC the poster without fear that he will get two copies
 and thus complain.
 
 Does this mean that it is OK to CC people now, without a CC
 being requested?  Or do many people read the list via the web
 interface to the mailing list archives without being subscribed
 and will still get annoyed if they are CCed?  I need some
 guidance here.  There have been a number of times that I have
 not CCed people because they didn't explicitly ask for it,
 but because they thought their problem was now solved, they
 were not looking at the list anymore and therefore didn't see
 my follow-up post offering a correction to an earlier mistake,
 etc.
 
 I don't want people to miss posts because they aren't looking.
 But neither do I want to annoy people.

Steve:

I think users like me can easily subscribe or can easily request a CC.
The present rule is simple and easily understood. It saves help
givers, who must generate many more emails, from having to explicitely
say 'no CC' in almost every email. Why burden them with that trivial
annoyance?  We users should want to make giving help fun, I hope.

I think a 'no CC' message in a signature block looks unfriendly, even
stupid. Like the legal notices about not reading wrongly delivered
email. I would not want to create an environment in which any help
giver felt an urgent need to do such.

As a matter of fact, the current rule is helpful to me in assessing
the advice that I get. If I get a CC, I think this guy isn't a real
DD --- I wonder if he knows what he's talking about.

But if I violate the rules of list etiquette, I prefer to receive an
email addressed directly to me rather than to be publicly shamed on
the list.

-- 
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pecon...@mesanetworks.net


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Re: Mailing list policy change?

2010-03-19 Thread Odd

Paul E Condon wrote:
-snip-

I think a 'no CC' message in a signature block looks unfriendly, even
stupid. Like the legal notices about not reading wrongly delivered
email. I would not want to create an environment in which any help
giver felt an urgent need to do such.

As a matter of fact, the current rule is helpful to me in assessing
the advice that I get. If I get a CC, I think this guy isn't a real
DD --- I wonder if he knows what he's talking about.

But if I violate the rules of list etiquette, I prefer to receive an
email addressed directly to me rather than to be publicly shamed on
the list.


Could you please explain what 'DD' stands for? I seem to have
missed that one, sorry.

--
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Re: Mailing list policy change?

2010-03-19 Thread Kelly Clowers
On Fri, Mar 19, 2010 at 12:16, Odd iod...@runbox.no wrote:
 Paul E Condon wrote:
 -snip-

 I think a 'no CC' message in a signature block looks unfriendly, even
 stupid. Like the legal notices about not reading wrongly delivered
 email. I would not want to create an environment in which any help
 giver felt an urgent need to do such.

 As a matter of fact, the current rule is helpful to me in assessing
 the advice that I get. If I get a CC, I think this guy isn't a real
 DD --- I wonder if he knows what he's talking about.

 But if I violate the rules of list etiquette, I prefer to receive an
 email addressed directly to me rather than to be publicly shamed on
 the list.

 Could you please explain what 'DD' stands for? I seem to have
 missed that one, sorry.

DD = Debian Developer

As far as the no CC unless requested rule, I think we need to keep
it. I am on a couple of mailing lists (vertpaleo and dinoML) that don't
have such a rule and it is messy (there are other, bigger problems,
but CCs definitely contribute).


Cheers,
Kelly Clowers


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Re: Mailing list policy change?

2010-03-19 Thread Stephen Powell
On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 15:16:33 -0400 (EDT), Odd wrote:
 
 Could you please explain what 'DD' stands for? I seem to have
 missed that one, sorry.

I didn't write it, of course, but I think in this context DD
means Debian Developer.  Correct me if I'm wrong, Paul.

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Re: Mailing list policy change?

2010-03-19 Thread Celejar
On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 20:16:33 +0100
Odd iod...@runbox.no wrote:

...

 Could you please explain what 'DD' stands for? I seem to have
 missed that one, sorry.

Generally, Debian Developer.

Celejar
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[Solved] Mailing list policy change?

2010-03-19 Thread Stephen Powell
On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 10:54:33 -0400 (EDT), Mark Allums wrote:
 On 3/19/2010 8:17 AM, Stephen Powell wrote:
 That makes me wonder if the list server has been smartened up
 
 No, probably more and more people have a mail UA that has reply-to-list, 
 like Thunderbird 3.
 
 Or, your other message got lost in the 'net.  Or something.

It happened again today.  Somebody e-mailed the list and CCed me,
or vice versa, and I got only one copy.  Either the list server
is smarter than it used to be and didn't send me a copy since
my e-mail address was in the TO, CC, or BCC list, or else my
ISP's mail server has been smartened up to eliminate duplicate
e-mails, which to it appear to be genuine duplicates (with
different routing paths for delivery).  Either way, I get only one copy.

In any event, the people have spoken.  Leave the CC rule the same.
Thanks to all who contributed.

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Re: Mailing list policy change?

2010-03-19 Thread Clive McBarton
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Mark Allums wrote:
 probably more and more people have a mail UA that has reply-to-list,
 like Thunderbird 3.

Lenny's default Thunderbird (that is, 2.0.0.22) doesn't though. I
believe it requires manually changing Cc: to To: in the list address
and manual backspacing over the unwanted email address. Please correct
me if I'm wrong (which I hope is the case).
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iEYEARECAAYFAkuj7rUACgkQ+VSRxYk440/gXgCgiksaqLod8xJWLXeKl8aBjMMU
aE8AoMyTmYMT4yzgZL66nAOIdH6H8zKf
=Lxwu
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Re: Mailing list policy change?

2010-03-19 Thread Ron Johnson

On 2010-03-19 16:37, Clive McBarton wrote:


Mark Allums wrote:

probably more and more people have a mail UA that has reply-to-list,
like Thunderbird 3.


Lenny's default Thunderbird (that is, 2.0.0.22) doesn't though. I
believe it requires manually changing Cc: to To: in the list address
and manual backspacing over the unwanted email address. Please correct
me if I'm wrong (which I hope is the case).


There's a reply-to-list plugin which for years I've been using to 
great effect.


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