Re: Debian v.9.2.1 DVDs - how long are they good for?

[Anonymous]

Thanks a lot, my friends. I did not anticipate such a beautiful
set of responses!

Re: Debian v.9.2.1 DVDs - how long are they good for?

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

sorry, i gave the wrong URL for the checksum files which should contain
sums for .jigdo and .template but do not.
A correct URL would be e.g.

  https://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/current/amd64/jigdo-bd/SHA512SUMS

(Classical copy+paste error. Of course
  https://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/current/amd64/iso-dvd/
 has no .jigdo files and thus needs no checksum entries.)


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: Debian v.9.2.1 DVDs - how long are they good for?

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

Hans wrote:
> I just wantes to mention, that you can just 
> burn the new iso on the dvd you read of before.

Now we are in sync.


> I love jigdo-lite. :)

It needs some love to adapt to modern times. 

  https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=887837
  "jigdo-lite: Final statement about verified ISO is too affirmative"

  https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=887831
  "jigdo-file: Jigdo .template file and resulting ISO are only verified by MD5"

Improvement of verification depends on

  https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=887830
  "debian-cd: *.jigdo files should be listed in the *SUMS files"
  (For some reason the progress made is not reflected in fresh 9.4 ISOs:
https://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/current/amd64/iso-dvd/SHA512SUMS
  )

I could also still need proof readers, testers, and MS/Mac experience with
  https://wiki.debian.org/JigdoOnLive
(where i need to remove the prediction that 9.4 will have checksums for
 .jigdo and .template files. G.)


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: Debian v.9.2.1 DVDs - how long are they good for?

[Hans]

Oh, this one you misunderstood. I just wantes to mention, that you can just 
burn the new iso on the dvd you read of before. So there is no need to buy a 
new one for every update of the installation dvd. Just overburn it.
Saves money.

After that you can safely delete the iso (I do so, as it is not needed any 
more). Of course, you can save the iso and overwrite it. Saves time. 

> We only disagree about this statement of yours:
> > > > when they are read/
> > > > writable, then he can easyly update them by using the famous
> > > > "jigdo-lite".
>  
> Have a nice day :)
> 
> Thomas

I love jigdo-lite. :)

Cheers

Hans 

Re: Debian v.9.2.1 DVDs - how long are they good for?

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

Hans wrote:
> As far as I know (as my last creation was a long time 
> ago), you can mount the dvd in jigdo, and then you will only need to download 
> newer packages not existing on the dvd.

Yes. That's how it works. The result is a new ISO freshly produced by
jigdo-lite and its main worker jigdo-file.
The old ISO is supposed to still exist afterwards.

We only disagree about this statement of yours:

> > > when they are read/
> > > writable, then he can easyly update them by using the famous "jigdo-lite".

The old ISOs must be readable (i.e. mountable) and the directory where
jigdo-lite creates the new ISO must be writable.


We agree that a local set of DVD ISOs can heavily speed up the creation of
slightly youngers ISOs. (With very much younger ISOs you may have not
much success with looking for their packages in the old ISOs.)


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: Debian v.9.2.1 DVDs - how long are they good for?

[Hans]

Am Mittwoch, 14. März 2018, 18:35:01 CET schrieb Thomas Schmitt:
Hi Thomas,
I do not agree with you. As far as I know (as my last creation was a long time 
ago), you can mount the dvd in jigdo, and then you will only need to download 
newer packages not existing on the dvd. All package versions, which are on the 
dvd will be downloaded from the dvd and not from the repo. 

Please correct me if I am wrong. 

So you save bandwith. 

Happy hacking!

Hans
> Hi,
> 
, jigdo-lite can use the old ISOs as source for most packages of the
> new ISOs which it produces from new .jigdo and .template files.
> 
> The ISOs themselves are not read-write filesystems in the usual way,
> although you may append a new session with a new directory tree and
> the differing data file contents. This grows the ISO but elsewise yields
> the desired effect of a writable filesystem.
> 
> 
> Have a nice day :)
> 
> Thomas

Re: Debian v.9.2.1 DVDs - how long are they good for?

[Brian]

On Wed 14 Mar 2018 at 16:19:23 +, Andy Smith wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 02:58:45PM +, Brian wrote:
> > On Wed 14 Mar 2018 at 13:03:14 +, Joe wrote:
> > > Greg Wooledge  wrote:
> > > > That's a wee bit overly optimistic.  In practice, you will find it
> > > > rather challenging to upgrade from a version of Debian that has been
> > > > archived (no longer on the regular mirrors, no longer receiving Long
> > > > Term Support).  Right now, the oldest release of Debian that is still
> > > > receiving LTS is wheezy (7.x).
> > > 
> > > I was certainly not suggesting that anyone try it, just that it is
> > > possible, therefore upgrading between any minor versions of a major
> > > version is trivial.
> > 
> > No harm in trying and it's not all that hard to use snapshot.debian.org
> > as an archive to upgtade from squeeze to wheezy.
> 
> Indeed; since snapshot.debian.org goes all the way back to woody in
> 2005, I don't see why it wouldn't be possible to put that in your
> /etc/apt/sources.list and take a potato system up through woody,
> sarge, etch, lenny, squeeze, to wheezy then switch to the normal
> mirrors to go to jessie and beyond. Although it'd probably take a
> lot longer than just reinstalling. :)

Technically possible though and, projecting into the future when jessie
et al are archived, for ever and ever. :)

-- 
Brian.

Re: Debian v.9.2.1 DVDs - how long are they good for?

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

Hans wrote:
> IMO the Installation DVDs are rather usefull, because when they are read/
> writable, then he can easyly update them by using the famous "jigdo-lite".

Urm, jigdo-lite can use the old ISOs as source for most packages of the
new ISOs which it produces from new .jigdo and .template files.

The ISOs themselves are not read-write filesystems in the usual way,
although you may append a new session with a new directory tree and
the differing data file contents. This grows the ISO but elsewise yields
the desired effect of a writable filesystem.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: Debian v.9.2.1 DVDs - how long are they good for?

[Andy Smith]

Hello,

On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 02:58:45PM +, Brian wrote:
> On Wed 14 Mar 2018 at 13:03:14 +, Joe wrote:
> > Greg Wooledge  wrote:
> > > That's a wee bit overly optimistic.  In practice, you will find it
> > > rather challenging to upgrade from a version of Debian that has been
> > > archived (no longer on the regular mirrors, no longer receiving Long
> > > Term Support).  Right now, the oldest release of Debian that is still
> > > receiving LTS is wheezy (7.x).
> > 
> > I was certainly not suggesting that anyone try it, just that it is
> > possible, therefore upgrading between any minor versions of a major
> > version is trivial.
> 
> No harm in trying and it's not all that hard to use snapshot.debian.org
> as an archive to upgtade from squeeze to wheezy.

Indeed; since snapshot.debian.org goes all the way back to woody in
2005, I don't see why it wouldn't be possible to put that in your
/etc/apt/sources.list and take a potato system up through woody,
sarge, etch, lenny, squeeze, to wheezy then switch to the normal
mirrors to go to jessie and beyond. Although it'd probably take a
lot longer than just reinstalling. :)

Cheers,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

Re: Debian v.9.2.1 DVDs - how long are they good for?

[Brian]

On Wed 14 Mar 2018 at 13:03:14 +, Joe wrote:

> On Wed, 14 Mar 2018 08:12:51 -0400
> Greg Wooledge  wrote:
> 
> > On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 09:15:58AM +, Joe wrote:
> > > You could literally install any numbered version and upgrade in
> > > steps to the current one, though that would be a lot of wasted
> > > work. Any version 9.x would upgrade in one step to current, and in
> > > the fullness of time (probably at least a year) can be upgraded to
> > > the next major version.  
> > 
> > That's a wee bit overly optimistic.  In practice, you will find it
> > rather challenging to upgrade from a version of Debian that has been
> > archived (no longer on the regular mirrors, no longer receiving Long
> > Term Support).  Right now, the oldest release of Debian that is still
> > receiving LTS is wheezy (7.x).
> > 
> 
> I was certainly not suggesting that anyone try it, just that it is
> possible, therefore upgrading between any minor versions of a major
> version is trivial.

No harm in trying and it's not all that hard to use snapshot.debian.org
as an archive to upgtade from squeeze to wheezy.

-- 
Brian.

Re: Debian v.9.2.1 DVDs - how long are they good for?

[Joe]

On Wed, 14 Mar 2018 08:12:51 -0400
Greg Wooledge  wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 09:15:58AM +, Joe wrote:
> > You could literally install any numbered version and upgrade in
> > steps to the current one, though that would be a lot of wasted
> > work. Any version 9.x would upgrade in one step to current, and in
> > the fullness of time (probably at least a year) can be upgraded to
> > the next major version.  
> 
> That's a wee bit overly optimistic.  In practice, you will find it
> rather challenging to upgrade from a version of Debian that has been
> archived (no longer on the regular mirrors, no longer receiving Long
> Term Support).  Right now, the oldest release of Debian that is still
> receiving LTS is wheezy (7.x).
> 

I was certainly not suggesting that anyone try it, just that it is
possible, therefore upgrading between any minor versions of a major
version is trivial.

-- 
Joe

Re: Debian v.9.2.1 DVDs - how long are they good for?

[Hans]

Hi there, 

IMO the Installation DVDs are rather usefull, because when they are read/
writable, then he can easyly update them by using the famous "jigdo-lite".

I am doing so since years. This saves costs for new DVD's and saves a lot of 
bandwith.

Just a little hint. :)

Best regards

Hans

Re: Debian v.9.2.1 DVDs - how long are they good for?

[Richard Owlett]

On 03/14/2018 04:15 AM, Joe wrote:

On Tue, 13 Mar 2018 23:20:30 +
Brian  wrote:


On Tue 13 Mar 2018 at 22:11:58 +0100, Nomen Nescio wrote:


I downloaded some Debian v.9.2.1 DVDs and I would like


Not today you didn't. It's 9.4.0 now.


Brian, did you bother to read what the OP *ACTUALLY* wrote.
He made *NO* mention of *WHEN* he had downloaded them.
In fact he strongly implied his goal was to have complete DVD sets and 
to download complete sets as infrequently as possible.


I also install from complete DVD sets. In fact my current set is v.9.1.0 
- though purchased rather than downloaded due to limited bandwidth and time.





to know how long they are useful. In other words, how long
may I retain them as install DVDs and upgrade once it has
been installed and put on-line?


For ever and ever.



To expand a bit (you can tell that Brian's not paid by the word), the
numbered versions of Debian form a single chain from the earliest days.

You could literally install any numbered version and upgrade in steps
to the current one, though that would be a lot of wasted work. Any
version 9.x would upgrade in one step to current, and in the fullness
of time (probably at least a year) can be upgraded to the next major
version.

The older the 9.x version to be upgraded, the more new software has to
be downloaded, but that's still vastly less than downloading a new
installation disc, the majority of the software won't change during
the life of the 9.x release.



Thank you for a useful answer.

Re: Debian v.9.2.1 DVDs - how long are they good for?

[Greg Wooledge]

On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 09:15:58AM +, Joe wrote:
> You could literally install any numbered version and upgrade in steps
> to the current one, though that would be a lot of wasted work. Any
> version 9.x would upgrade in one step to current, and in the fullness
> of time (probably at least a year) can be upgraded to the next major
> version.

That's a wee bit overly optimistic.  In practice, you will find it
rather challenging to upgrade from a version of Debian that has been
archived (no longer on the regular mirrors, no longer receiving Long
Term Support).  Right now, the oldest release of Debian that is still
receiving LTS is wheezy (7.x).

A more reasonable projection for the lifespan of Debian installation
media is about 5 years (the length of LTS coverage).

With that said, having full DVDs is pretty much a waste.  Once you
install Debian and get the machine onto the Internet so that you can
upgrade it, you'll find that most of the packages you installed from
the DVDs have been superseded by newer versions, so you'll end up
downloading them all over again anyway.

That's why most of us just use the minimal "netinst" installation images.
Get the basic system installed from physical media, and then download
the packages you want during (or shortly after) the installation,
rather than installing old/buggy versions of the packages from physical
media and then replacing them with newer versions immediately.

Re: Debian v.9.2.1 DVDs - how long are they good for?

[Joe]

On Tue, 13 Mar 2018 23:20:30 +
Brian  wrote:

> On Tue 13 Mar 2018 at 22:11:58 +0100, Nomen Nescio wrote:
> 
> > I downloaded some Debian v.9.2.1 DVDs and I would like  
> 
> Not today you didn't. It's 9.4.0 now.
> 
> > to know how long they are useful. In other words, how long
> > may I retain them as install DVDs and upgrade once it has
> > been installed and put on-line?  
> 
> For ever and ever.
> 

To expand a bit (you can tell that Brian's not paid by the word), the
numbered versions of Debian form a single chain from the earliest days.

You could literally install any numbered version and upgrade in steps
to the current one, though that would be a lot of wasted work. Any
version 9.x would upgrade in one step to current, and in the fullness
of time (probably at least a year) can be upgraded to the next major
version.

The older the 9.x version to be upgraded, the more new software has to
be downloaded, but that's still vastly less than downloading a new
installation disc, the majority of the software won't change during
the life of the 9.x release.

-- 
Joe

Re: Debian v.9.2.1 DVDs - how long are they good for?

[Brian]

On Tue 13 Mar 2018 at 22:11:58 +0100, Nomen Nescio wrote:

> I downloaded some Debian v.9.2.1 DVDs and I would like

Not today you didn't. It's 9.4.0 now.

> to know how long they are useful. In other words, how long
> may I retain them as install DVDs and upgrade once it has
> been installed and put on-line?

For ever and ever.

-- 
Brian.

Debian v.9.2.1 DVDs - how long are they good for?

[Nomen Nescio]

I downloaded some Debian v.9.2.1 DVDs and I would like
to know how long they are useful. In other words, how long
may I retain them as install DVDs and upgrade once it has
been installed and put on-line?

Also, how often would I need to replace/download new versions
of the .ISOs (to ensure I could update/upgrade once installed
and on-line). I know there are other ways to go about this,
but I prefer to carry these install DVDs to make it easier
for installing onto my systems and clients. TIA.