Re: mail sig separator (was Re: BD backup?)

[Jonathan Dowland]

Hi,

On Thu Nov 21, 2024 at 6:30 AM GMT, David Wright wrote:
> But can I ask you why you stopped using f=f when you changed address.

It wasn't a change of address, but a change of MUA or MUA config. I
certainly had it enabled at some point with mutt, and I changed the
way I used mutt (from mostly writing mail on the same machine as my
MTA, to mostly writing it on my end-user machine).  I don't know if
I stopped using it at that point, but in either case, I'm currently
using a different MUA (aerc) and I haven't yet investigated whether
it does f=f.

> Was it because you're now using quoted-printable for some reason,
> rather than 8bit.
>
> And perhaps I ought not to ask why the paragraph above is right-justified.

I was playing around with vim's bundled macros/justify.vim.

-- 
Please do not CC me for listmail.

👱🏻  Jonathan Dowland
✎j...@debian.org
🔗   https://jmtd.net

Re: mail sig separator (was Re: BD backup?)

[gene heskett]

On 11/21/24 19:01, Greg Wooledge wrote:

On Thu, Nov 21, 2024 at 18:32:38 -0500, gene heskett wrote:

The =20 tells me its been converted to html style encoding some where.


No, =20 is "quoted printable" encoding.  It's extremely common for
email; it can be used whenever the source content is HTML or plain text
or a calendar invitation or any other textual material which might
not fit within the 7-bit ASCII encoding.

If the message were HTML encoded, you would have seen %20, not =20.

.

And I  learn something Greg, thanks. Now all I have to do is remember it,

Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: mail sig separator (was Re: BD backup?)

[David Wright]

On Wed 20 Nov 2024 at 11:35:28 (-0500), eben@… wrote:
> On 11/20/24 10:49, David Wright wrote:
> > On Tue 19 Nov 2024 at 19:41:25 (-0500), eben@… wrote:
> > > On 11/19/24 10:31, Brad Rogers wrote:
> 
> > > > Your sig separator arrives here as "--".  If it leaves you as "-- ",
> > > > which it seems to be based on your attached image, I'm not sure what's
> > > > happening.
> > > 
> > > I guess until I find a smoking gun I'll just delete the signature and its
> > > separator when sending to this list.
> > 
> > So, naturally you use an editor to compose your posts.
> 
> Not sure why you would assume that, but let's run with it.  How would I
> configure Tbird do do such a thing?  I see no relevant settings for "editor"
> or "path" but maybe they're hidden in the weeds.

According to:

  
https://askubuntu.com/questions/252769/ubuntu-12-04-thunderbird-17-0-2-set-mime-enconding-quoted-printable

it's called the "editor", but presumably it's built in.
It looks like you want the opposite of what ptheo wants.

Looking at:

  https://github.com/thunderbird/thunderbird-android/issues/2302

I seem to disagree with most of what's written by cketti, who thinks
that format=flowed is rubbish and quoted printable is able to do what
f=f does. (How can a Content-Transfer-Encoding define a Content-Type.)
But the RFC (3676) certainly warns you not to use both.

While you're probably not using the android version of TB, I don't
know which versions you and others here are using. Anyway, perhaps
the askubuntu post can help you navigate the configuration options
in TB, and find you a suitable Content-Transfer-Encoding.

Cheers,
David.

Re: mail sig separator (was Re: BD backup?)

[Greg Wooledge]

On Thu, Nov 21, 2024 at 18:32:38 -0500, gene heskett wrote:
> The =20 tells me its been converted to html style encoding some where.

No, =20 is "quoted printable" encoding.  It's extremely common for
email; it can be used whenever the source content is HTML or plain text
or a calendar invitation or any other textual material which might
not fit within the 7-bit ASCII encoding.

If the message were HTML encoded, you would have seen %20, not =20.

Re: mail sig separator (was Re: BD backup?)

[gene heskett]

On 11/21/24 10:00, e...@gmx.us wrote:

On 11/20/24 15:31, gene heskett wrote:

On 11/20/24 15:16, gene heskett wrote:

On 11/20/24 11:24, e...@gmx.us wrote:

On 11/20/24 10:20, Greg Wooledge wrote:

On Wed, Nov 20, 2024 at 10:13:20 -0500, e...@gmx.us wrote:

Just for kicks:
This line has no trailing spaces.
This line has one trailing space.
This line has two trailing spaces.


In the message I received, none of these lines have any trailing
spaces.


Dangit.


What folks don't seem to get, is that the character preceding the "-- "
needs to be a line feed, as does the character /after/ the space, 
IOW, on

a line by itself.


Which is what I am sending from latest t-bird in what I think is plain 
text,

as below, and it works, my too long comment is not greyed out in the
incoming echo from the listserver. You should see it incoming but not 
in a

reply you make that quotes my msg for context. Your agent is supposed to
throw it away, not retransmitting it again and again.


Your sig separator arrived as "-- " not "--=20".  Why the difference?

The =20 tells me its been converted to html style encoding some where. 
Might be your settings, might be the mail server you are using. IDK and 
haven't a clue.



Also, yours works and mine doesn't, and we're both using a recent Tbird.
What could we be doing differently?

.



Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: mail sig separator (was Re: BD backup?)

[David Wright]

On Thu 21 Nov 2024 at 10:11:56 (+0700), Max Nikulin wrote:
> On 20/11/2024 22:20, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> 
> > On Wed, Nov 20, 2024 at 10:13:20 -0500, eben wrote:
> 
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
> 
> > > This line has one trailing space.
> [...]
> >This line has two leading and two trailing spaces.
> 
> I think, format=flowed is important here. It may be disabled in
> Thunderbird, but it may interact with line width limit and in some
> cases it might be necessary to explicitly wrap lines ([Ctrl+R] for
> selection). Flowed format allows readers to rewrap paragraphs to
> smaller width (unfortunately Thunderbird rewraps even to fill really
> wide windows).

AFAICT, Gene's post: https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2024/11/msg00522.html
looks like a well-formed f=f post, complete with signature. The
web version referenced here shows flowing in action when you change
the font size, /but/ it does strip the space in the signature
separator.

John's reply: https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2024/11/msg00535.html
has interpreted Gene's f=f text, and he reports that signature
stripping worked. However, the post itself uses very long f=fixed
lines, making no attempt to reflow the text into shorter lines.

Gene's response: https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2024/11/msg00537.html
appears to do everything correctly, reflowing the quote and flowing
Gene's text. Assuming it stripped the signature automatically, Gene's
version wins.

Eben also replied to the first post with:
https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2024/11/msg00555.html
but TB's action here show a very odd interaction between f=f and
quoted-printable. Gene's text is reflowed, but to a linelength that
causes most lines to be split a few characters from the end by q-p,
and these lines are now written as f=fixed (no space at the end).
Eben's text is ambiguous, but I suspect the last paragraph was
typed on two lines.

So my guess is that Eben's entire post is stripped of trailing spaces,
likely by a q-p encoder that enforces a 74-char line length but is
unaware of both format=flowed text and signature separators.

Cheers,
David.

Re: mail sig separator (was Re: BD backup?)

[David Wright]

On Thu 21 Nov 2024 at 14:38:02 (-0500), eben wrote:
> On 11/21/24 11:46, eben wrote:
> > On 11/21/24 11:07, eben wrote:
> >> On 11/20/24 10:13, eben wrote:
> >>
> >>> Just for kicks:
> >>> This line has no trailing spaces.
> >>> This line has one trailing space.
> >>> This line has two trailing spaces.
> >>
> >> OK, I changed "mail.html_compose" from true to false.  Now to see if it
> >> makes a difference:
> >>
> >> This line has no trailing spaces.
> >> This line has one trailing space.
> >> This line has two trailing spaces.
> >
> > Now I changed "mailnews.send_plaintext_flowed" from true to false.
> >
> > This is a long line that is more than seventy-two characters that should end
> > with a space. It is wrapped on my end.
> >
> > This is a long line that is more than seventy-two characters that should end
> > with two spaces. It is also wrapped on my end.
> 
> I posted
> https://www.reddit.com/r/Thunderbird/comments/1gwn43t/trailing_spaces_get_removed/
> for help with this problem.

You might try not using quoted-printable to encode your messages,
particularly when using format=flowed. It's possible that the encoder
is getting things wrong even without the extra complications of f=f.

Cheers,
David.

Re: mail sig separator (was Re: BD backup?)

[eben]

On 11/21/24 11:46, e...@gmx.us wrote:
> On 11/21/24 11:07, e...@gmx.us wrote:
>> On 11/20/24 10:13, e...@gmx.us wrote:
>>
>>> Just for kicks:
>>> This line has no trailing spaces.
>>> This line has one trailing space.
>>> This line has two trailing spaces.
>>
>> OK, I changed "mail.html_compose" from true to false.  Now to see if it
>> makes a difference:
>>
>> This line has no trailing spaces.
>> This line has one trailing space.
>> This line has two trailing spaces.
>
> Now I changed "mailnews.send_plaintext_flowed" from true to false.
>
> This is a long line that is more than seventy-two characters that should end
> with a space. It is wrapped on my end.
>
> This is a long line that is more than seventy-two characters that should end
> with two spaces. It is also wrapped on my end.

I posted
https://www.reddit.com/r/Thunderbird/comments/1gwn43t/trailing_spaces_get_removed/
for help with this problem.

--
A well-lovd and corrctly traind domstc cnine is gnrlly slobbry, excitbl,
noisy, scatologically obsessed, xenophobic, pathetically unjudgmental,
embrrssngly uninhbtd, unreasnngly dvtd, hrtbrkngly dpndnt and wretchedly
craven.  All othr knds of dog cmpre unfvrbly wth ths picture. - PB, AFCA

Re: mail sig separator (was Re: BD backup?)

[Brad Rogers]

On Thu, 21 Nov 2024 11:46:01 -0500
e...@gmx.us wrote:

Hello e...@gmx.us,

>This is a long line that is more than seventy-two characters that
>should end with a space. It is wrapped on my end.
>
>This is a long line that is more than seventy-two characters that
>should end with two spaces. It is also wrapped on my end.

Both wrapped (obviously) but, sadly, no trailing spaces.

-- 
 Regards  _   "Valid sig separator is {dash}{dash}{space}"
 / )  "The blindingly obvious is never immediately apparent"
/ _)rad   "Is it only me that has a working delete key?"
Save me from everybody else
Prisoners - Judgement Centre


pgpflO3d4tSvm.pgp
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: mail sig separator (was Re: BD backup?)

[eben]

On 11/21/24 11:07, e...@gmx.us wrote:
> On 11/20/24 10:13, e...@gmx.us wrote:
>
>> Just for kicks:
>> This line has no trailing spaces.
>> This line has one trailing space.
>> This line has two trailing spaces.
>
> OK, I changed "mail.html_compose" from true to false.  Now to see if it
> makes a difference:
>
> This line has no trailing spaces.
> This line has one trailing space.
> This line has two trailing spaces.

Now I changed "mailnews.send_plaintext_flowed" from true to false.

This is a long line that is more than seventy-two characters that should end
with a space. It is wrapped on my end.

This is a long line that is more than seventy-two characters that should end
with two spaces. It is also wrapped on my end.

Re: mail sig separator (was Re: BD backup?)

[Brad Rogers]

On Thu, 21 Nov 2024 11:07:07 -0500
e...@gmx.us wrote:

Hello e...@gmx.us,

>This line has no trailing spaces.
>This line has one trailing space.
>This line has two trailing spaces.

No trailing spaces anywhere.   Sorry.   :-(

-- 
 Regards  _   "Valid sig separator is {dash}{dash}{space}"
 / )  "The blindingly obvious is never immediately apparent"
/ _)rad   "Is it only me that has a working delete key?"
I don't care about anyone else I just care about me
I Just Care About Me - Stiff Little Fingers


pgpHJnwqJmNaq.pgp
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: mail sig separator (was Re: BD backup?)

[eben]

On 11/21/24 11:07, e...@gmx.us wrote:


OK, I changed "mail.html_compose" from true to false.  Now to see if it
makes a difference:

This line has no trailing spaces.
This line has one trailing space.
This line has two trailing spaces.


Narrator: It did not.

Re: mail sig separator (was Re: BD backup?)

[eben]

On 11/20/24 10:13, e...@gmx.us wrote:


Just for kicks:
This line has no trailing spaces.
This line has one trailing space.
This line has two trailing spaces.


OK, I changed "mail.html_compose" from true to false.  Now to see if it
makes a difference:

This line has no trailing spaces.
This line has one trailing space.
This line has two trailing spaces.

Re: mail sig separator (was Re: BD backup?)

[tomas]

On Thu, Nov 21, 2024 at 10:00:11AM -0500, e...@gmx.us wrote:
> On 11/20/24 15:31, gene heskett wrote:
> > On 11/20/24 15:16, gene heskett wrote:
> > > On 11/20/24 11:24, e...@gmx.us wrote:
> > > > On 11/20/24 10:20, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > > > > On Wed, Nov 20, 2024 at 10:13:20 -0500, e...@gmx.us wrote:
> > > > > > Just for kicks:
> > > > > > This line has no trailing spaces.
> > > > > > This line has one trailing space.
> > > > > > This line has two trailing spaces.
> > > > > 
> > > > > In the message I received, none of these lines have any trailing
> > > > > spaces.
> > > > 
> > > > Dangit.
> > > 
> > > What folks don't seem to get, is that the character preceding the "-- "
> > > needs to be a line feed, as does the character /after/ the space, IOW, on
> > > a line by itself.
> > 
> > Which is what I am sending from latest t-bird in what I think is plain text,
> > as below, and it works, my too long comment is not greyed out in the
> > incoming echo from the listserver. You should see it incoming but not in a
> > reply you make that quotes my msg for context. Your agent is supposed to
> > throw it away, not retransmitting it again and again.
> 
> Your sig separator arrived as "-- " not "--=20".  Why the difference?

Look at the MIME structure of the message. The one might have a transfer
encoding of "8bit" or similar, the other probably "quoted-printable".
a transfer encoding "text/plain", the other is most probably "quoted-printable".

ISTR I already tipped you off in this direction. Look up MIME in
Wikipedia, it's really worth it!

> Also, yours works and mine doesn't, and we're both using a recent Tbird.
> What could we be doing differently?

No idea about TBird's inner life.

Cheers
-- 
t


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: mail sig separator (was Re: BD backup?)

[Max Nikulin]

On 21/11/2024 10:11, Max Nikulin wrote:
Eben, you may try to inspect sources of your messages ([Ctrl+U]) from 
sent and draft folders.


Interesting, signature separator is lost by gmane, see

w3m -m 'nntp://news.gmane.io/gmane.linux.debian.user/622024'

however it is present in USENET group and web archive


Gmane does not strip signatures separated by "--=20" or if it is not 
format=flowed Content-Type.

Re: mail sig separator (was Re: BD backup?)

[eben]

On 11/20/24 15:31, gene heskett wrote:

On 11/20/24 15:16, gene heskett wrote:

On 11/20/24 11:24, e...@gmx.us wrote:

On 11/20/24 10:20, Greg Wooledge wrote:

On Wed, Nov 20, 2024 at 10:13:20 -0500, e...@gmx.us wrote:

Just for kicks:
This line has no trailing spaces.
This line has one trailing space.
This line has two trailing spaces.


In the message I received, none of these lines have any trailing
spaces.


Dangit.


What folks don't seem to get, is that the character preceding the "-- "
needs to be a line feed, as does the character /after/ the space, IOW, on
a line by itself.


Which is what I am sending from latest t-bird in what I think is plain text,
as below, and it works, my too long comment is not greyed out in the
incoming echo from the listserver. You should see it incoming but not in a
reply you make that quotes my msg for context. Your agent is supposed to
throw it away, not retransmitting it again and again.


Your sig separator arrived as "-- " not "--=20".  Why the difference?

Also, yours works and mine doesn't, and we're both using a recent Tbird.
What could we be doing differently?

Re: mail sig separator (was Re: BD backup?)

[John Crawley]

On 21/11/2024 15:10, gene heskett wrote:

That doesn't affect the dozens of miss-configured email agents here that violate 
those SOP's for text emails. 

My mail filter for debian-user seems to be working OK, everything sent to the 
right place. Maybe it's because I have fewer filters than you (31 in the Local 
Folders section) or could it be because I consolidate all accounts into Local 
Folders, but FWIW the filter is:

Match all the following
List-Id is  

Perform these actions
Move Message to Deb user on Local Folders

---
I still haven't figured out the difference between setting filters on Local 
Folders vs for individual mail accounts though.

--
John

Re: mail sig separator (was Re: BD backup?)

[gene heskett]

On 11/20/24 23:46, John Crawley wrote:

On 21/11/2024 05:31, gene heskett wrote:
Which is what I am sending from latest t-bird in what I think is plain 
text, as below, and it works, my too long comment is not greyed out in 
the incoming echo from the listserver. You should see it incoming but 
not in a reply you make that quotes my msg for context. Your agent is 
supposed to throw it away, not retransmitting it again and again.


Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.


My TB is behaving exactly like yours in this respect. Your sig is shown 
greyed-out and is automatically removed when I reply to your post (like 
this).



Which is how it should be.

Meanwhile my sig is correctly added and (I've just checked) sent to 
another account's inbox with the trailing space after -- intact.


So nothing here to blame on TB, at least for mail being sent between 
Thunderbirds.


That (sigh) was my point. That doesn't affect the dozens of 
miss-configured email agents here that violate those SOP's for text 
emails. tirds filters for debian-user still miss-sorts them, a lot. Some sent to 
debian-user, some send to the full fqdn, And it still leaves about 10-20 
an hour in the inbox or in junk with a perfectly good address. Which 
filter rule is miss-firing is a puzzle w/o enough clues to solve.


Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: mail sig separator (was Re: BD backup?)

[David Wright]

On Tue 19 Nov 2024 at 15:32:47 (+), Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> On Tue Nov 19, 2024 at 3:02 PM GMT, eben wrote:
> > That is what I see in the message to which you replied.  See the <1k
> > attachment.  This message also has a space.  Is that not what you see?
> 
> I'm afraid not. Looking at your message source, I see
> 
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> and
> =2D-
> 
> So the sig separator is being content-encoded (which might  be  related)
> and the trailing space appears to have been stripped.  You've  also  got
> format=flowed in the Content-Type. I love  format=flowed!  Perhaps  your
> formatter is (incorrectly¹) stripping the  trailing  space  as  part  of
> encoding for that? 

Not only does it strip trailing space, but it destroys the
format=flowed for anyone who uses f=f in their reply.

But can I ask you why you stopped using f=f when you changed address.
Was it because you're now using quoted-printable for some reason,
rather than 8bit.

And perhaps I ought not to ask why the paragraph above is right-justified.

Cheers,
David.

Re: mail sig separator (was Re: BD backup?)

[gene heskett]

On 11/21/24 01:10, gene heskett wrote:

On 11/20/24 23:46, John Crawley wrote:

On 21/11/2024 05:31, gene heskett wrote:
Which is what I am sending from latest t-bird in what I think is 
plain text, as below, and it works, my too long comment is not greyed 
out in the incoming echo from the listserver. You should see it 
incoming but not in a reply you make that quotes my msg for context. 
Your agent is supposed to throw it away, not retransmitting it again 
and again.


Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.


My TB is behaving exactly like yours in this respect. Your sig is 
shown greyed-out and is automatically removed when I reply to your 
post (like this).



Which is how it should be.

Meanwhile my sig is correctly added and (I've just checked) sent to 
another account's inbox with the trailing space after -- intact.


And that one above did nothing because it was mid-line, w/o the /r-- /r 
that triggers all this. It will be interesting how the above is treated 
when echo back from the server, which was the other half of my point. ;o)


So nothing here to blame on TB, at least for mail being sent between 
Thunderbirds.


That (sigh) was my point. That doesn't affect the dozens of miss- 
configured email agents here that violate those SOP's for text emails. 
filters for debian-user still miss-sorts them, a lot. Some sent to 
debian-user, some send to the full fqdn, And it still leaves about 10-20 
an hour in the inbox or in junk with a perfectly good address. Which 
filter rule is miss-firing is a puzzle w/o enough clues to solve.


Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.



Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: mail sig separator (was Re: BD backup?)

[John Crawley]

On 21/11/2024 05:31, gene heskett wrote:

Which is what I am sending from latest t-bird in what I think is plain text, as 
below, and it works, my too long comment is not greyed out in the incoming echo 
from the listserver. You should see it incoming but not in a reply you make 
that quotes my msg for context. Your agent is supposed to throw it away, not 
retransmitting it again and again.

Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.


My TB is behaving exactly like yours in this respect. Your sig is shown 
greyed-out and is automatically removed when I reply to your post (like this).

Meanwhile my sig is correctly added and (I've just checked) sent to another 
account's inbox with the trailing space after -- intact.

So nothing here to blame on TB, at least for mail being sent between 
Thunderbirds.

--
John

Re: mail sig separator (was Re: BD backup?)

[The Wanderer]

On 2024-11-20 at 12:08, e...@gmx.us wrote:

> On 11/20/24 11:37, The Wanderer wrote:
> 
>> On 2024-11-20 at 11:24, e...@gmx.us wrote:

>>> Does anyone using Thunderbird _not_ get trailing spaces stripped,
>>> or is it just me?
>> 
>> I don't (see signature below), but it may be worth noting that I
>> am using an *ancient* version of Thunderbird, because of UI/UX
>> changes in the meanwhile which I'm not willing to tolerate. It's
>> far from impossible that changes in more recent Thunderbird
>> versions might have broken this.
> 
> This is true.  What version?

31.8.0. (Technically this is Icedove, but that's just a branding
difference AFAIK.)

Even that version has UI/etc. changes which I dislike relative to
previous versions, but it also has improvements over them in other ways,
and so far it's been a sufficient compromise.

-- 
   The Wanderer

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw



signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: mail sig separator (was Re: BD backup?)

[Max Nikulin]

On 20/11/2024 22:20, Greg Wooledge wrote:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii



On Wed, Nov 20, 2024 at 10:13:20 -0500, eben wrote:



Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed



This line has one trailing space.

[...]

   This line has two leading and two trailing spaces.


I think, format=flowed is important here. It may be disabled in 
Thunderbird, but it may interact with line width limit and in some cases 
it might be necessary to explicitly wrap lines ([Ctrl+R] for selection). 
Flowed format allows readers to rewrap paragraphs to smaller width 
(unfortunately Thunderbird rewraps even to fill really wide windows).


Eben, you may try to inspect sources of your messages ([Ctrl+U]) from 
sent and draft folders.


--
A directly typed signature

Re: mail sig separator (was Re: BD backup?)

[David Wright]

On Wed 20 Nov 2024 at 11:35:28 (-0500), eben@… wrote:
> > So, naturally you use an editor to compose your posts.
> 
> Not sure why you would assume that, but let's run with it.  How would I
> configure Tbird do do such a thing?  I see no relevant settings for "editor"
> or "path" but maybe they're hidden in the weeds.

False assumptions, I guess. I'd assumed that most people would want to
compose their emails with the same editor that they generally worked
with, so that the same commands are used for handling multiple files,
cut and paste, etc: all the usual things for assembling the reply. eg:

  https://github.com/Frederick888/external-editor-revived

in the case of TB.

On Wed 20 Nov 2024 at 17:56:07 (+0100), to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 20, 2024 at 09:49:58AM -0600, David Wright wrote:
> > So, naturally you use an editor to compose your posts. Have you
> > set it up to remove trailing spaces from files when it saves them?
> 
> No, in another arm of this thread OP confirms that it's Thunderbird
> adding the separator and the sig (from a file). So either TB is messing
> up, or something on the way to us. I'd venture it's the first.

Well, posts elsewhere talk about people editing the signature and/or
separator on a per post basis, which would seem to imply that TB is
adding them at the start of composing, rather than tacking them on
at the last moment as the message is sent. (The former corresponds
with mutt's signature behaviour, ie you see it when composing; the
latter with mutt's Date behaviour, ie you don't see that header.)

So, having composed the post, whichever editor is being used would
normally save a file and exit, before it sends that file to some
other process. Again, posts elsewhere make it obvious that stripping
trailing space when saving is a popular option.

AFAICT eben's TB sends the message directly to gmx, so I can't see
the blame being anywhere other than on eben's side.

In conclusion though, I guess you can apply s/editor/TB compositor/
when reading my post, whatever a TB compositor is.

Editor AFAIAC mumble mumble…

Cheers,
David.

Re: mail sig separator (was Re: BD backup?)

[gene heskett]

On 11/20/24 15:16, gene heskett wrote:

On 11/20/24 11:24, e...@gmx.us wrote:

On 11/20/24 10:20, Greg Wooledge wrote:

On Wed, Nov 20, 2024 at 10:13:20 -0500, e...@gmx.us wrote:

Just for kicks:
This line has no trailing spaces.
This line has one trailing space.
This line has two trailing spaces.


In the message I received, none of these lines have any trailing
spaces.


Dangit.


What folks don't seem to get, is that the character preceding the "-- " 
needs to be a line feed, as does the character /after/ the space, IOW, 
on a line by itself.


[...]

Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.


Which is what I am sending from latest t-bird in what I think is plain 
text, as below, and it works, my too long comment is not greyed out in 
the incoming echo from the listserver. You should see it incoming but 
not in a reply you make that quotes my msg for context. Your agent is 
supposed to throw it away, not retransmitting it again and again.


Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: mail sig separator (was Re: BD backup?)

[gene heskett]

On 11/20/24 11:24, e...@gmx.us wrote:

On 11/20/24 10:20, Greg Wooledge wrote:

On Wed, Nov 20, 2024 at 10:13:20 -0500, e...@gmx.us wrote:

Just for kicks:
This line has no trailing spaces.
This line has one trailing space.
This line has two trailing spaces.


In the message I received, none of these lines have any trailing
spaces.


Dangit.


What folks don't seem to get, is that the character preceding the "-- " 
needs to be a line feed, as does the character /after/ the space, IOW, 
on a line by itself.


[...]

Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: mail sig separator (was Re: BD backup?)

[Charles Curley]

On Wed, 20 Nov 2024 12:08:02 -0500
e...@gmx.us wrote:

> Anyone know how to
> get a pure text version, if such a thing exists?

Possibly storing one's emails in maildir format. Each email is its own
raw text file. Suitable grepping or use of mairix or the like should
then locate particular messages.

-- 
Does anybody read signatures any more?

https://charlescurley.com
https://charlescurley.com/blog/

Re: mail sig separator (was Re: BD backup?)

[tomas]

On Wed, Nov 20, 2024 at 12:08:02PM -0500, e...@gmx.us wrote:
> On 11/20/24 11:37, The Wanderer wrote:
> > On 2024-11-20 at 11:24, e...@gmx.us wrote:
> > 
> > > On 11/20/24 10:20, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > 
> > > > If I had to guess, I would guess that Thunderbird is composing
> > > > HTML email, and then translating it to plain text, with trailing
> > > > spaces being lost during that translation.  Including the trailing
> > > > space on the signature separator.
> > > 
> > > Makes sense.  Does anyone using Thunderbird _not_ get trailing
> > > spaces stripped, or is it just me?
> > 
> > I don't (see signature below), but it may be worth noting that I am
> > using an *ancient* version of Thunderbird, because of UI/UX changes in
> > the meanwhile which I'm not willing to tolerate. It's far from
> > impossible that changes in more recent Thunderbird versions might have
> > broken this.
> 
> This is true.  What version?
> 
> BTW I received your separator as "--=20".  But that's once saved as eml.

This is quoted-printable. Most probably the way the mail was transported.

I guess it's the "rawest" it gets.

Cheers
-- 
t
> Onscreen it looks fine, and the signature is greyed out.  Anyone know how to
> get a pure text version, if such a thing exists?

Reality is... complicated. Very [1] much so.

Cheers
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIME
-- 
t 


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: mail sig separator (was Re: BD backup?)

[eben]

On 11/20/24 11:37, The Wanderer wrote:

On 2024-11-20 at 11:24, e...@gmx.us wrote:


On 11/20/24 10:20, Greg Wooledge wrote:



If I had to guess, I would guess that Thunderbird is composing
HTML email, and then translating it to plain text, with trailing
spaces being lost during that translation.  Including the trailing
space on the signature separator.


Makes sense.  Does anyone using Thunderbird _not_ get trailing
spaces stripped, or is it just me?


I don't (see signature below), but it may be worth noting that I am
using an *ancient* version of Thunderbird, because of UI/UX changes in
the meanwhile which I'm not willing to tolerate. It's far from
impossible that changes in more recent Thunderbird versions might have
broken this.


This is true.  What version?

BTW I received your separator as "--=20".  But that's once saved as eml.
Onscreen it looks fine, and the signature is greyed out.  Anyone know how to
get a pure text version, if such a thing exists?

Re: mail sig separator (was Re: BD backup?)

[eben]

On 11/20/24 10:20, Greg Wooledge wrote:

On Wed, Nov 20, 2024 at 10:13:20 -0500, e...@gmx.us wrote:

Just for kicks:
This line has no trailing spaces.
This line has one trailing space.
This line has two trailing spaces.


In the message I received, none of these lines have any trailing
spaces.


Dangit.


If I had to guess, I would guess that Thunderbird is composing HTML
email, and then translating it to plain text, with trailing spaces
being lost during that translation.  Including the trailing space on
the signature separator.


Makes sense.  Does anyone using Thunderbird _not_ get trailing spaces
stripped, or is it just me?


Just to double-check,


Your tests all worked.  However, I looked at the the copy of the previous
message I received, and all the tests (including the one with no trailing
spaces) had one trailing whitespace character.  So my attachment that showed
a correct separator was invalid.

I saved the email in question (Tbird only saves as *.eml, whatever that is)
and the test lines all ended with CR LF, no spaces.  Same deal in the copy
in my "sent" folder.  So the stripping is happening locally.

Re: mail sig separator (was Re: BD backup?)

[tomas]

On Wed, Nov 20, 2024 at 09:49:58AM -0600, David Wright wrote:
> On Tue 19 Nov 2024 at 19:41:25 (-0500), eben@… wrote:
> > On 11/19/24 10:31, Brad Rogers wrote:
> > > On Tue, 19 Nov 2024 10:02:59 -0500 eben@… wrote:
> > > 
> > > > That is what I see in the message to which you replied.  See the <1k
> > > > attachment.  This message also has a space.  Is that not what you see?
> > > 
> > > I see what Jonathan sees.
> > > 
> > > Your sig separator arrives here as "--".  If it leaves you as "-- ",
> > > which it seems to be based on your attached image, I'm not sure what's
> > > happening.
> > 
> > I guess until I find a smoking gun I'll just delete the signature and its
> > separator when sending to this list.
> 
> So, naturally you use an editor to compose your posts. Have you
> set it up to remove trailing spaces from files when it saves them?

No, in another arm of this thread OP confirms that it's Thunderbird
adding the separator and the sig (from a file). So either TB is messing
up, or something on the way to us. I'd venture it's the first.

Cheers
-- 
t


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: mail sig separator (was Re: BD backup?)

[eben]

On 11/20/24 10:49, David Wright wrote:

On Tue 19 Nov 2024 at 19:41:25 (-0500), eben@… wrote:

On 11/19/24 10:31, Brad Rogers wrote:



Your sig separator arrives here as "--".  If it leaves you as "-- ",
which it seems to be based on your attached image, I'm not sure what's
happening.


I guess until I find a smoking gun I'll just delete the signature and its
separator when sending to this list.


So, naturally you use an editor to compose your posts.


Not sure why you would assume that, but let's run with it.  How would I
configure Tbird do do such a thing?  I see no relevant settings for "editor"
or "path" but maybe they're hidden in the weeds.

Re: mail sig separator (was Re: BD backup?)

[The Wanderer]

On 2024-11-20 at 11:24, e...@gmx.us wrote:

> On 11/20/24 10:20, Greg Wooledge wrote:

>> If I had to guess, I would guess that Thunderbird is composing
>> HTML email, and then translating it to plain text, with trailing
>> spaces being lost during that translation.  Including the trailing
>> space on the signature separator.
> 
> Makes sense.  Does anyone using Thunderbird _not_ get trailing
> spaces stripped, or is it just me?

I don't (see signature below), but it may be worth noting that I am
using an *ancient* version of Thunderbird, because of UI/UX changes in
the meanwhile which I'm not willing to tolerate. It's far from
impossible that changes in more recent Thunderbird versions might have
broken this.

-- 
   The Wanderer

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw



signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: mail sig separator (was Re: BD backup?)

[David Wright]

On Tue 19 Nov 2024 at 19:41:25 (-0500), eben@… wrote:
> On 11/19/24 10:31, Brad Rogers wrote:
> > On Tue, 19 Nov 2024 10:02:59 -0500 eben@… wrote:
> > 
> > > That is what I see in the message to which you replied.  See the <1k
> > > attachment.  This message also has a space.  Is that not what you see?
> > 
> > I see what Jonathan sees.
> > 
> > Your sig separator arrives here as "--".  If it leaves you as "-- ",
> > which it seems to be based on your attached image, I'm not sure what's
> > happening.
> 
> I guess until I find a smoking gun I'll just delete the signature and its
> separator when sending to this list.

So, naturally you use an editor to compose your posts. Have you
set it up to remove trailing spaces from files when it saves them?

Cheers,
David.

Re: mail sig separator (was Re: BD backup?)

[Greg Wooledge]

On Wed, Nov 20, 2024 at 10:13:20 -0500, e...@gmx.us wrote:
> Just for kicks:
> This line has no trailing spaces.
> This line has one trailing space.
> This line has two trailing spaces.

In the message I received, none of these lines have any trailing
spaces.

If I had to guess, I would guess that Thunderbird is composing HTML
email, and then translating it to plain text, with trailing spaces
being lost during that translation.  Including the trailing space on
the signature separator.

Just to double-check,

  This line has two leading and two trailing spaces.  

This line has two trailing spaces only.  

  This line has two leading spaces only.

I'm composing a plain text message in mutt, so there shouldn't be any
translation on my end.  We'll see if the mailing list does any.

Re: mail sig separator (was Re: BD backup?)

[eben]

On 11/20/24 00:29, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

On Tue, Nov 19, 2024 at 07:41:25PM -0500, e...@gmx.us wrote:

On 11/19/24 10:31, Brad Rogers wrote:

On Tue, 19 Nov 2024 10:02:59 -0500
e...@gmx.us wrote:

Hello e...@gmx.us,


That is what I see in the message to which you replied.  See the <1k
attachment.  This message also has a space.  Is that not what you see?


I see what Jonathan sees.

Your sig separator arrives here as "--".  If it leaves you as "-- ",
which it seems to be based on your attached image, I'm not sure what's
happening.


I guess until I find a smoking gun I'll just delete the signature and its
separator when sending to this list.


How do you add tyour sig? "By hand"?


No, under "Account Settings" in Tbird, gmx,"[x] Attach the signature from a
file", and that points to ~/.signature.  Then I have a script

#! /bin/sh

sigfile=~/.signature
list="$HOME/signatures"

while : ; do
inotifywait -qq "$sigfile"
fortune "$list" > "$sigfile"
done

that replaces the file with a new signature (without the separator) after
every use.  I guess Tbird supplies the separator.  For example, right now
~/.signature contains

--start--
Here in the US, we are so schizoid and deeply opposed to government
censorship that we insist on having unaccountable private parties
to do it instead.
  -- Bill Cole
--end--

The script runs whenever I'm in X.  Technically it should run whenever I'm
logged in, but the discrepancy hasn't reared its ugly head yet.


Note that Thunderbird seems to have a
way to add the signature itself, and then it adds the separator (by default).


It does.  Unfortunately it attaches the same one every time, and you have to
jump through hoops to get a randomized one.  This was easier, but I don't
understand why the separator (which I didn't choose) doesn't work.
Something is stripping trailing spaces when it shouldn't, maybe the same
thing that wraps other text.

Just for kicks:
This line has no trailing spaces.
This line has one trailing space.
This line has two trailing spaces.

Re: mail sig separator (was Re: BD backup?)

[Eric S Fraga]

Response below/inline for email e...@gmx.us wrote:
> (original email sent 19 Nov 2024 at 10:02)
> 
> That is what I see in the message to which you replied.  See the <1k
> attachment.  This message also has a space.  Is that not what you see?

Your post/email comes through without the space after the two dashes.

-- 
Eric S Fraga via gnus (Emacs 31.0.50 2024-08-16) on Debian 12.6

Re: mail sig separator (was Re: BD backup?)

[tomas]

On Tue, Nov 19, 2024 at 07:41:25PM -0500, e...@gmx.us wrote:
> On 11/19/24 10:31, Brad Rogers wrote:
> > On Tue, 19 Nov 2024 10:02:59 -0500
> > e...@gmx.us wrote:
> > 
> > Hello e...@gmx.us,
> > 
> > > That is what I see in the message to which you replied.  See the <1k
> > > attachment.  This message also has a space.  Is that not what you see?
> > 
> > I see what Jonathan sees.
> > 
> > Your sig separator arrives here as "--".  If it leaves you as "-- ",
> > which it seems to be based on your attached image, I'm not sure what's
> > happening.
> 
> I guess until I find a smoking gun I'll just delete the signature and its
> separator when sending to this list.

How do you add tyour sig? "By hand"? Note that Thunderbird seems to have a
way to add the signature itself, and then it adds the separator (by default).

Perhaps it is smarter, then?

Cheers
-- 
t


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: mail sig separator (was Re: BD backup?)

[eben]

On 11/19/24 10:31, Brad Rogers wrote:

On Tue, 19 Nov 2024 10:02:59 -0500
e...@gmx.us wrote:

Hello e...@gmx.us,


That is what I see in the message to which you replied.  See the <1k
attachment.  This message also has a space.  Is that not what you see?


I see what Jonathan sees.

Your sig separator arrives here as "--".  If it leaves you as "-- ",
which it seems to be based on your attached image, I'm not sure what's
happening.


I guess until I find a smoking gun I'll just delete the signature and its
separator when sending to this list.

Re: mail sig separator (was Re: BD backup?)

[Markus Schönhaber]

19.11.24, 16:02 +0100 e...@gmx.us:

> On 11/19/24 05:19, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> On Sun Nov 17, 2024 at 7:05 PM GMT, eben wrote:
>>> --
>>
>> Just to point out that the mail signature separator is '-- ', i.e. with
>> a suffixed ' ' character.  Without it, Mail User Agent programs may not
>> recognise your signature as such.
> 
> That is what I see in the message to which you replied.  See the <1k
> attachment.  This message also has a space.  Is that not what you see?
No. This is how the separator line looks like in your message's (quoted
printable) source:

"=2D-"

The "s added by me.

-- 
Regards
  mks

Re: mail sig separator (was Re: BD backup?)

[Jonathan Dowland]

On Tue Nov 19, 2024 at 3:02 PM GMT, eben wrote:
> That is what I see in the message to which you replied.  See the <1k
> attachment.  This message also has a space.  Is that not what you see?

I'm afraid not. Looking at your message source, I see

Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
and
=2D-

So the sig separator is being content-encoded (which might  be  related)
and the trailing space appears to have been stripped.  You've  also  got
format=flowed in the Content-Type. I love  format=flowed!  Perhaps  your
formatter is (incorrectly¹) stripping the  trailing  space  as  part  of
encoding for that? 

[1] https://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3676.txt § 4.3

-- 
Please do not CC me for listmail.

👱🏻  Jonathan Dowland
✎j...@debian.org
🔗   https://jmtd.net

Re: mail sig separator (was Re: BD backup?)

[Brad Rogers]

On Tue, 19 Nov 2024 10:02:59 -0500
e...@gmx.us wrote:

Hello e...@gmx.us,

>That is what I see in the message to which you replied.  See the <1k
>attachment.  This message also has a space.  Is that not what you see?

I see what Jonathan sees.

Your sig separator arrives here as "--".  If it leaves you as "-- ",
which it seems to be based on your attached image, I'm not sure what's
happening.

-- 
 Regards  _   "Valid sig separator is {dash}{dash}{space}"
 / )  "The blindingly obvious is never immediately apparent"
/ _)rad   "Is it only me that has a working delete key?"
It's your life so go your own way
Questions And Answers - Sham 69


pgpylT6M_YLbD.pgp
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: mail sig separator (was Re: BD backup?)

[eben]

On 11/19/24 05:19, Jonathan Dowland wrote:

Hi,

On Sun Nov 17, 2024 at 7:05 PM GMT, eben wrote:

--


Just to point out that the mail signature separator is '-- ', i.e. with
a suffixed ' ' character.  Without it, Mail User Agent programs may not
recognise your signature as such.


That is what I see in the message to which you replied.  See the <1k
attachment.  This message also has a space.  Is that not what you see?

--
  "God does not play dice" -- Einstein
   "Not only does God play dice, he sometimes throws
   them where they can't be seen." -- Stephen Hawking