On Thu, 04 Mar 2004 06:03:43 +, Adam Majer [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
Being very frank here, I *really* do not think that changing the
social demographic is in any way related to the Debian
project. People either think they can or they think they can't join
Debian.
The primary
On Thu, 4 Mar 2004 06:17:20 -0500, Branden Robinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
On Wed, Mar 03, 2004 at 11:06:40PM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
Indeed. For once I am ashamed to be a member of such a narrow
minded, bigoted group.
Helen, please accept my apologies; we are not quite grown up
Andrew Suffield [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
dark hysterical is actually an interesting word, it basically
means having a womb. Psychologists once thought it was something
women did naturally.
Sort of. They thought it was something that happened to women, and
not men, and was
On Wed, Mar 03, 2004 at 06:59:57PM -0800, Thomas Bushnell, BSG wrote:
I think there's something sexist there--not in you, but in her. If
there is any truth to the notion that men are better at being bullied,
then I think it is only because men get bullied more and have had to
learn to deal
On Thu, Mar 04, 2004 at 11:23:59AM -0800, Thomas Bushnell, BSG wrote:
Mike Beattie [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
We're a previously persecuted minority, dammit, treat us special, we
deserve the land you have worked hard for. even though we sit on our asses.
New Zealand, Australia, Canada,
Manoj Srivastava wrote:
On Thu, 04 Mar 2004 06:03:43 +, Adam Majer [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
Currently most of the developers in the western world are
men. Currently most of the new teachers in the USA are women. DPL
can't be asked to change that. [Normal] Governmental policies can't
On Thu, Mar 04, 2004 at 02:56:37PM +0100, Josip Rodin wrote:
I agree, though it should be noted that Debian at least tries to be an
equal opportunity hostile place -- _everyone_ gets abused :)
Not really equally, however -- more visible people tend to get more
abuse than less visible people.
On Thu, Mar 04, 2004 at 08:07:53PM +, Adam Majer wrote:
Well, you missed that point *completely*.
Talk about who's missing points here.
Michael
--
Michael Banck
Debian Developer
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.advogato.org/person/mbanck/diary.html
On Thu, Mar 04, 2004 at 03:41:10PM +0100, Michael Banck wrote:
On Thu, Mar 04, 2004 at 12:24:14AM +, Helen Faulkner wrote:
Note that this situation existing doesn't mean that there necessarily are
hostile/scary/condescending guys about, and it isn't the fault of
anyone in particular.
On Thu, Mar 04, 2004 at 12:44:22PM -0800, Thomas Bushnell, BSG wrote:
As I said, if there is any truth to the notion that men are better at
being bullied. I suspect there is not really much truth to that.
Either men are better at being bullied a strawman (irrelevant to the
thread), or you're
Raul Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
On Wed, Mar 03, 2004 at 06:59:57PM -0800, Thomas Bushnell, BSG wrote:
I think there's something sexist there--not in you, but in her. If
there is any truth to the notion that men are better at being bullied,
then I think it is only because men get
Raul Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
On Thu, Mar 04, 2004 at 12:44:22PM -0800, Thomas Bushnell, BSG wrote:
As I said, if there is any truth to the notion that men are better at
being bullied. I suspect there is not really much truth to that.
Either men are better at being bullied a
On Thu, Mar 04, 2004 at 03:07:47PM -0500, Raul Miller wrote:
I agree, though it should be noted that Debian at least tries to be an
equal opportunity hostile place -- _everyone_ gets abused :)
Not really equally, however -- more visible people tend to get more
abuse than less visible
Helen said women are likely to be not so confident that their skills
will allow them to survive in an environment like debian, compared to
their male counterparts. And then, her explanation of what that
environment amounted to, was that it was bullying and condescending
to women.
Not
Manoj, here I came ;-)
I really have no time to get this flamewar alive ;-) but, I promise I'll
summarize and see if we get constructive ideas out of it.
Sincerely, I only wanted candidate's input, but this is Debian :-)
* I don't think debian is specially hostile on a gender basis.
I agree
Manoj Srivastava wrote:
On Thu, 4 Mar 2004 00:22:14 -0500 (EST), Jaldhar H Vyas [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
Yes I do. Or rather I think it could be. As anecdotal evidence
mine is as good as yours. Let me ask you then, how would you go
about setting up an experiment to test the hypothesis that
On Thu, Mar 04, 2004 at 01:36:39AM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
On Thu, 4 Mar 2004 00:22:14 -0500 (EST), Jaldhar H Vyas [EMAIL PROTECTED]
said:
OK. Last I heard, irc.debian.org #debian is a project
resource. Here is an example of how women are treated in Debian; and
[...]
I
On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 07:34:11AM +1100, Craig Sanders wrote:
the situation does not discriminate against women, in particular, it
discriminates against a particular personality trait - meekness.
meekness is found in both men and women, and meek men are discouraged from
participating in
On Thu, Mar 04, 2004 at 10:04:15AM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
You should read the following chapter, that addresses
particularly your brand of protest:
http://www.linux.org/docs/ldp/howto/Encourage-Women-Linux-HOWTO/x28.html#AEN41
Such a wash of illogic from someone
On Thu, Mar 04, 2004 at 08:17:44PM -0500, Branden Robinson wrote:
On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 07:34:11AM +1100, Craig Sanders wrote:
meekness is found in both men and women, and meek men are discouraged from
participating in debian (and other groups) just as much as women are. men
suffer from
On Thu, Mar 04, 2004 at 08:15:25PM -0500, Branden Robinson wrote:
Perhaps we need to reconsider our official recognition of Freenode's
#debian as a Project resource.
Well, given that the number of actual Debian Developers who hang around
in there regularly is two (Laurence Lane/ljlane and David
On Thu, 4 Mar 2004 20:15:25 -0500
Branden Robinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Perhaps we need to reconsider our official recognition of Freenode's
#debian as a Project resource.
Couldn't it be a good idea to form a Debian-specific IRC network? I'm
just wondering it, not use FreeNode, but an
On Thu, Mar 04, 2004 at 09:05:01PM -0600, David Moreno Garza wrote:
On Thu, 4 Mar 2004 20:15:25 -0500
Branden Robinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Perhaps we need to reconsider our official recognition of Freenode's
#debian as a Project resource.
Couldn't it be a good idea to form a
On Thu, Mar 04, 2004 at 08:17:44PM -0500, Branden Robinson wrote:
We also have our fair share of people with an excess of the polar
opposite of meekness.
really?
i never noticed.
craig
:)
On Thu, Mar 04, 2004 at 11:25:59AM -0800, Thomas Bushnell, BSG wrote:
Anthony Towns aj@azure.humbug.org.au writes:
So, Helen is kind enough to summarise her views on why she doesn't
participate in the project as fully as she might, and she's called a
flake, mentally unstable and sexist for
Ah right, I'll chime in.
But on balance I think even that was pretty mild. I very seldom see
overt hostility towards women in Debian. I think I have seen more
towards gays, and we appear to have more gay and bi male developers than
women of any orientation.
It's possible that it's all
I agree with Ben that the problems are more subtle than overt. I have
never noticed overt sexism in my dealings with debian, though maybe I
haven't been looking awfully hard either.
I think that on average, women are likely to be not so confident that
their skills will allow them to survive
Helen Faulkner [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
website, possibly? I also think that all debian people could bear in
mind that when a woman is interacting with you, it's likely that she's
nervous about doing so. That's not your fault, but it's helpful if
you are sensitive to the possibility,
So, anyone blindly assuming that a female Debian user is
automatically in the luser category is a fool.
I wasn't assuming that. I'm technically not that bad myself. That's
not the point. The point is that *on average* I believe a woman is
going to feel less confident about this stuff than a
On Wed, Mar 03, 2004 at 12:11:46PM +, Helen Faulkner wrote:
This is my opinion, anyway :)
I'm glad you expressed your opinion. I was going to posit it
myself, based on conversations with my girlfriend, but hearing it from a
woman is much better.
There's no rational reason
On Wed, 03 Mar 2004 12:11:46 +, Helen Faulkner [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
I agree with Ben that the problems are more subtle than overt. I
have never noticed overt sexism in my dealings with debian, though
maybe I haven't been looking awfully hard either.
Well, at least that sounds
On Wed, 2004-03-03 at 17:31, Gergely Nagy wrote:
As a female hacker/geek/DD I find myself more and more concerned about
the gender ratio in the Debian Developer/User comunity. How can we say
make a Universal OS when it's do scarcely related to half the
population of the world... I think
On Wed, Mar 03, 2004 at 12:11:46PM +, Helen Faulkner wrote:
I think that on average, women are likely to be not so confident that
their skills will allow them to survive in an environment like debian,
compared to their male counterparts. I don't know why this is true, but
I experience
As a female hacker/geek/DD I find myself more and more concerned about
the gender ratio in the Debian Developer/User comunity. How can we say
make a Universal OS when it's do scarcely related to half the
population of the world... I think we all agree we want to see more
women
On Wed, Mar 03, 2004 at 10:34:28PM +1100, Ben Burton wrote:
But on balance I think even that was pretty mild. I very seldom see
overt hostility towards women in Debian. I think I have seen more
towards gays, and we appear to have more gay and bi male developers than
women of any
On Wed, Mar 03, 2004 at 10:23:57AM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
Conversely, my wife opines that men tend to be more
aggressive, and this may be an inherent characteristic of the
species (human nature, in other words). From what the two of you are
saying, it seems that it is a
I have never had a hostile experience with debian, but I still feel
really unconfident when I interact with the debian community, even
if it's only posting a bug report. I don't understand why this is
so, but it's very real. Partly it's knowing that I'm going to be
dealing with a man
Helen == Helen Faulkner [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Helen I have never had a hostile experience with debian, but I
Helen still feel really unconfident when I interact with the
Helen debian community, even if it's only posting a bug report.
Helen I don't understand why this is so,
The problem is you are a flake.
$ dict flake
...
4. a person who behaves strangely; a flaky[2] person.
[Colloq.]
[PJC]
...
2: a person with an unusual or odd personality [syn:
{eccentric}, {eccentric person}, {oddball}, {geek}]
...
Your yourself say you
Helen Faulkner [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Partly it's knowing that I'm going to be dealing
with a man (almost certainly), and he may assume I don't know what I'm
doing, and he may put me down or be condescending or unkind as a
result.
The first newbie question I
On Wed, Mar 03, 2004 at 06:09:56PM -0500, Bob Hilliard wrote:
Helen Faulkner [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Partly it's knowing that I'm going to be dealing
with a man (almost certainly), and he may assume I don't know what I'm
doing, and he may put me down or be
On Wed, Mar 03, 2004 at 12:11:46PM +, Helen Faulkner wrote:
I agree with Ben that the problems are more subtle than overt. I have
never noticed overt sexism in my dealings with debian, though maybe I
haven't been looking awfully hard either.
I think that on average, women are
On Thu, 4 Mar 2004, Ben Burton wrote:
Your yourself say you notice a lot of people exhibiting similar
behaviour, so it doesn't appear particularly strange, unusual or odd to me.
Having read a lot of Phillip K. Dick lately, that there are a lot of
flakes out there doesn't seem odd to me. :-)
I don't know you are how long you have been with Debian or what your
contributions are, but are you sure that this lack of confidence isn't
due to inexperience?
I've been using debian increasingly for about 4-5 years now, and have used it
almost exclusively for the last couple. I don't think I'm
On Thu, Mar 04, 2004 at 10:04:09AM +1100, Ben Burton wrote:
Colloquialisms are frequently both unkind and inaccurately applied, and
regardless of your intentions, your use of flake comes across as no
exception. Saying you're a flake, but that's not meant unkindly is
like saying I'm not
Honestly out of all the flame wars we've had
can you think of any where being a yucky girl was an issue?
I suspect you've missed the point somewhat. AIUI she does not fear that
people will bully her because she's female. She simply fears that
people will bully her (as they bully others, male
I don't honestly give a rats ass about what sexuality a person is, but I get
seriously pissed off when the 'We're a minority, we're special' card gets
pulled.
Whilst I see what you're saying, I fail to see how my post could
possibly be read as pulling the minority card. The quote I gave was
Ben Burton [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
people will bully her because she's female. She simply fears that
people will bully her (as they bully others, male or female), and her
claim is that males (by social training or otherwise) are better suited to
such environments than females are.
I think
Mike Beattie [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I don't honestly give a rats ass about what sexuality a person is, but I get
seriously pissed off when the 'We're a minority, we're special' card gets
pulled. It's the whole PC thing going overboard.
Since nobody in my opinion has ever said that...what
On Wed, 3 Mar 2004 17:04:36 -0500 (EST), Jaldhar H Vyas [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
I have never had a hostile experience with debian, but I still
feel really unconfident when I interact with the debian
community, even if it's only posting a bug report. I don't
understand why this is so,
On Wed, Mar 03, 2004 at 07:01:35PM -0800, Thomas Bushnell, BSG wrote:
Since nobody in my opinion has ever said that...what are you
complaining about?
...
We're a minority, please treat us equally, from one side, and
We're the majority, so we get special rights, from the other.
Again, perhaps
On Thu, 4 Mar 2004, Ben Burton wrote:
I suspect you've missed the point somewhat. AIUI she does not fear that
people will bully her because she's female.
I think instead of guessing at what we think Helen is saying we should
just go by what she actually did say and let her respond to any
On Wed, Mar 03, 2004 at 05:04:36PM -0500, Jaldhar H. Vyas wrote:
I have never had a hostile experience with debian, but I still feel
really unconfident when I interact with the debian community, even
if it's only posting a bug report. [...]
Helen I hope you don't take this the wrong way
On Wed, Mar 03, 2004 at 09:02:41PM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
On Wed, 3 Mar 2004 17:04:36 -0500 (EST), Jaldhar H Vyas [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
I have never had a hostile experience with debian, but I still
feel really unconfident when I interact with the debian
community, even if
On Thu, 4 Mar 2004 13:57:18 +1000, Anthony Towns [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
On Wed, Mar 03, 2004 at 05:04:36PM -0500, Jaldhar H. Vyas wrote:
I have never had a hostile experience with debian, but I still
feel really unconfident when I interact with the debian
community, even if it's only
On Wed, 3 Mar 2004, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
Heh. Seems tome that you are merely displaying your
inexperience
Could be. Given there are half a billion women in the world it could take
me a while to get the requisite experience.
What Helen mentions is not a feeling that is an
Helen Faulkner wrote:
I wasn't assuming that. I'm technically not that bad myself. That's
not the point. The point is that *on average* I believe a woman is
going to feel less confident about this stuff than a man with similar
skill. Do you have anoher suggestion as to why women don't get
On Thu, Mar 04, 2004 at 01:52:45PM +1300, Mike Beattie wrote:
Don't get me wrong, it's not just homosexuals that fit into this gripe, it's
also african-americans, .nz's Maori, various religions, and Australians..
this We're a minority, we're special card you mention is used by those who
feel
On Thu, 4 Mar 2004, Craig Sanders wrote:
this We're a minority, we're special card you mention is used by those who
feel marginalised or persecuted, i.e. in an inferior social position.
i don't think any of the australians in this forum could be accused of feeling
that :)
Aren't your
On Wed, Mar 03, 2004 at 01:12:11AM +0100, Amaya wrote:
As a female hacker/geek/DD I find myself more and more concerned about
the gender ratio in the Debian Developer/User comunity. How can we say
make a Universal OS when it's do scarcely related to half the
population of the world... I think
Ah right, I'll chime in.
But on balance I think even that was pretty mild. I very seldom see
overt hostility towards women in Debian. I think I have seen more
towards gays, and we appear to have more gay and bi male developers than
women of any orientation.
It's possible that it's all
I agree with Ben that the problems are more subtle than overt. I have
never noticed overt sexism in my dealings with debian, though maybe I
haven't been looking awfully hard either.
I think that on average, women are likely to be not so confident that
their skills will allow them to
Helen Faulkner [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
website, possibly? I also think that all debian people could bear in
mind that when a woman is interacting with you, it's likely that she's
nervous about doing so. That's not your fault, but it's helpful if
you are sensitive to the possibility,
So, anyone blindly assuming that a female Debian user is
automatically in the luser category is a fool.
I wasn't assuming that. I'm technically not that bad myself. That's
not the point. The point is that *on average* I believe a woman is
going to feel less confident about this stuff
On Wed, Mar 03, 2004 at 12:11:46PM +, Helen Faulkner wrote:
This is my opinion, anyway :)
I'm glad you expressed your opinion. I was going to posit it
myself, based on conversations with my girlfriend, but hearing it from a
woman is much better.
There's no rational reason
On Wed, 03 Mar 2004 12:11:46 +, Helen Faulkner [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
I agree with Ben that the problems are more subtle than overt. I
have never noticed overt sexism in my dealings with debian, though
maybe I haven't been looking awfully hard either.
Well, at least that sounds
As a female hacker/geek/DD I find myself more and more concerned about
the gender ratio in the Debian Developer/User comunity. How can we say
make a Universal OS when it's do scarcely related to half the
population of the world... I think we all agree we want to see more
women involved in or
On Wed, 2004-03-03 at 17:31, Gergely Nagy wrote:
As a female hacker/geek/DD I find myself more and more concerned about
the gender ratio in the Debian Developer/User comunity. How can we say
make a Universal OS when it's do scarcely related to half the
population of the world... I think
On Wed, Mar 03, 2004 at 12:11:46PM +, Helen Faulkner wrote:
I think that on average, women are likely to be not so confident that
their skills will allow them to survive in an environment like debian,
compared to their male counterparts. I don't know why this is true, but
I experience
As a female hacker/geek/DD I find myself more and more concerned about
the gender ratio in the Debian Developer/User comunity. How can we say
make a Universal OS when it's do scarcely related to half the
population of the world... I think we all agree we want to see more
women
On Wed, Mar 03, 2004 at 10:34:28PM +1100, Ben Burton wrote:
But on balance I think even that was pretty mild. I very seldom see
overt hostility towards women in Debian. I think I have seen more
towards gays, and we appear to have more gay and bi male developers than
women of any
The problem is you are a flake.
$ dict flake
...
4. a person who behaves strangely; a flaky[2] person.
[Colloq.]
[PJC]
...
2: a person with an unusual or odd personality [syn:
{eccentric}, {eccentric person}, {oddball}, {geek}]
...
Your yourself say you
Helen Faulkner [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Partly it's knowing that I'm going to be dealing
with a man (almost certainly), and he may assume I don't know what I'm
doing, and he may put me down or be condescending or unkind as a
result.
The first newbie question I
On Wed, Mar 03, 2004 at 06:09:56PM -0500, Bob Hilliard wrote:
Helen Faulkner [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Partly it's knowing that I'm going to be dealing
with a man (almost certainly), and he may assume I don't know what I'm
doing, and he may put me down or be
On Wed, Mar 03, 2004 at 12:11:46PM +, Helen Faulkner wrote:
I agree with Ben that the problems are more subtle than overt. I have
never noticed overt sexism in my dealings with debian, though maybe I
haven't been looking awfully hard either.
I think that on average, women are
On Thu, 4 Mar 2004, Ben Burton wrote:
Your yourself say you notice a lot of people exhibiting similar
behaviour, so it doesn't appear particularly strange, unusual or odd to me.
Having read a lot of Phillip K. Dick lately, that there are a lot of
flakes out there doesn't seem odd to me. :-)
I don't know you are how long you have been with Debian or what your
contributions are, but are you sure that this lack of confidence isn't
due to inexperience?
I've been using debian increasingly for about 4-5 years now, and have used it
almost exclusively for the last couple. I don't think
On Thu, Mar 04, 2004 at 10:04:09AM +1100, Ben Burton wrote:
Colloquialisms are frequently both unkind and inaccurately applied, and
regardless of your intentions, your use of flake comes across as no
exception. Saying you're a flake, but that's not meant unkindly is
like saying I'm not
Honestly out of all the flame wars we've had
can you think of any where being a yucky girl was an issue?
I suspect you've missed the point somewhat. AIUI she does not fear that
people will bully her because she's female. She simply fears that
people will bully her (as they bully others, male
I don't honestly give a rats ass about what sexuality a person is, but I get
seriously pissed off when the 'We're a minority, we're special' card gets
pulled.
Whilst I see what you're saying, I fail to see how my post could
possibly be read as pulling the minority card. The quote I gave was
Mike Beattie [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I don't honestly give a rats ass about what sexuality a person is, but I get
seriously pissed off when the 'We're a minority, we're special' card gets
pulled. It's the whole PC thing going overboard.
Since nobody in my opinion has ever said that...what
On Wed, Mar 03, 2004 at 07:01:35PM -0800, Thomas Bushnell, BSG wrote:
Since nobody in my opinion has ever said that...what are you
complaining about?
...
We're a minority, please treat us equally, from one side, and
We're the majority, so we get special rights, from the other.
Again, perhaps
On Thu, 4 Mar 2004, Ben Burton wrote:
I suspect you've missed the point somewhat. AIUI she does not fear that
people will bully her because she's female.
I think instead of guessing at what we think Helen is saying we should
just go by what she actually did say and let her respond to any
On Wed, Mar 03, 2004 at 05:04:36PM -0500, Jaldhar H. Vyas wrote:
I have never had a hostile experience with debian, but I still feel
really unconfident when I interact with the debian community, even
if it's only posting a bug report. [...]
Helen I hope you don't take this the wrong way
On Wed, Mar 03, 2004 at 09:02:41PM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
On Wed, 3 Mar 2004 17:04:36 -0500 (EST), Jaldhar H Vyas [EMAIL PROTECTED]
said:
I have never had a hostile experience with debian, but I still
feel really unconfident when I interact with the debian
community, even if
On Thu, 4 Mar 2004 13:57:18 +1000, Anthony Towns aj@azure.humbug.org.au said:
On Wed, Mar 03, 2004 at 05:04:36PM -0500, Jaldhar H. Vyas wrote:
I have never had a hostile experience with debian, but I still
feel really unconfident when I interact with the debian
community, even if it's
On Wed, 3 Mar 2004, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
Heh. Seems tome that you are merely displaying your
inexperience
Could be. Given there are half a billion women in the world it could take
me a while to get the requisite experience.
What Helen mentions is not a feeling that is an
On Wed, 2004-03-03 at 11:12, Amaya wrote:
As a female hacker/geek/DD I find myself more and more concerned about
the gender ratio in the Debian Developer/User comunity. How can we say
make a Universal OS when it's do scarcely related to half the
population of the world... I think we all agree
* Amaya [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2004-03-03 01:12]:
As a female hacker/geek/DD I find myself more and more concerned
about the gender ratio in the Debian Developer/User community. How
can we say make a Universal OS when it's do scarcely related to
half the population of the world... I think we all
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