I've seen this whole thread continuing on and just tried to ignore it but
can't in good conscious not add my thoughts on this matter...
TL;DR;
This comes to a GR vote I'll oppose it... Full stop...
Why you may ask? Because I think this is starting to border on ridiculous.
I can not for the life
On Fri, 2021-11-12 at 22:14 +0100, Joerg Jaspert wrote:
> There are a trillion and two external dependencies on many
> of the above that take extra work and ages on top of that.
For example, according to codesearch there are around 210 mentions of
the domain in 61 Debian source packages. I have
On 16314 March 1977, Thomas Goirand wrote:
Wrong wrong wrong ... we're "project members" ... don't you remember?
:)
Just like AH is now CT. (Gosh, DMT TLA...)
This shows that it will take years, if not decades, for the rename to
ever be effective (if the person(s) in charge decide(s)
On 11/11/21 8:48 PM, Bastian Blank wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 02:23:58PM -0500, Daniel Kahn Gillmor wrote:
>> I'm legitimately surprised to hear that anyone in the Debian project
>> believes that the term "FTP master" is *not* confused and outdated.
>
> I'm really surprised that ftp master
On 2021/11/11 21:48, Bastian Blank wrote:
I'm really surprised that ftp master is more important than the weird
definition of DD and DM.
You left out "non-uploading DD" :)
-Jonathan
I feel that the benefits and costs estimate are just made up numbers.
I'd like to know if there exists a person in the whole world that would
refuse to cooperate with Debian because of the FTP master name. My totally
made up answer is no. But I could of course be totally wrong.
Best
Il gio 11
Hi Marc
On 2021/11/11 17:29, Marc Haber wrote:
On Wed, Nov 10, 2021 at 05:37:55PM -0500, Daniel Kahn Gillmor wrote:
PS For people who are concerned that a retreat from the term "master" is
somehow the language police run dangerously amok, it's worth asking
why you feel so committed to
Hi,
On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 10:28 AM Bdale Garbee wrote:
>
> being a good
> citizen of a community like Debian means *not* side-stepping such
> responsibilities.
No sweat. How about the following?
$500,000 Value of friendly and up-to-date team names [1]
$200,000 Cost of implementation [2]
On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 02:23:58PM -0500, Daniel Kahn Gillmor wrote:
> I'm legitimately surprised to hear that anyone in the Debian project
> believes that the term "FTP master" is *not* confused and outdated.
I'm really surprised that ftp master is more important than the weird
definition of DD
On Thu 2021-11-11 07:56:24 -0500, Roberto C. Sánchez wrote:
> 1/ The assertion "we all can acknowledge is confused and outdated" is
>far fom the case. This and other discussions on the matter are
>strong evidence that "we can all acknowledge" is a
>mischaracterization.
I'm
Felix Lechner writes:
> Hi,
>
> On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 5:12 AM Roberto C. Sánchez wrote:
>>
>> Those proposing
>> improvements must also demonstrate how the claimed improvements
>> provide greater benefit than the cost incurred in implementing the
>> improvements.
>
> I had hoped to sidestep
Hi,
On Wed, Nov 10, 2021 at 05:37:55PM -0500, Daniel Kahn Gillmor wrote:
> PS For people who are concerned that a retreat from the term "master" is
>somehow the language police run dangerously amok, it's worth asking
>why you feel so committed to the term "master" that you would fight
>
On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 02:22:48PM +0100, Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote:
>
> Roberto C. Sánchez wrote on 11/11/2021 at 13:56:24+0100:
> > If we as a project allow some to make changes without considering the
> > concerns of those affected by the changes, we are not being faithful
> > to our own
Roberto C. Sánchez wrote on 11/11/2021 at 13:56:24+0100:
> If we as a project allow some to make changes without considering the
> concerns of those affected by the changes, we are not being faithful
> to our own principles.
That's true, but it doesn't look like it's what's being done here.
Hi,
On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 5:12 AM Roberto C. Sánchez wrote:
>
> Those proposing
> improvements must also demonstrate how the claimed improvements
> provide greater benefit than the cost incurred in implementing the
> improvements.
I had hoped to sidestep that responsibility by putting the
On Wed, Nov 10, 2021 at 05:37:55PM -0500, Daniel Kahn Gillmor wrote:
>
> PS For people who are concerned that a retreat from the term "master" is
>somehow the language police run dangerously amok, it's worth asking
>why you feel so committed to the term "master" that you would fight
>
Daniel Kahn Gillmor writes:
> PS For people who are concerned that a retreat from the term "master" is
>somehow the language police run dangerously amok, it's worth asking
>why you feel so committed to the term "master" that you would fight
>to keep the project we all work on using
Daniel Kahn Gillmor wrote:
On Sat 2021-11-06 11:32:35 +0100, Martin Steigerwald wrote:
Pierre-Elliott Bécue - 06.11.21, 11:06:58 CET:
That being said, the name is indeed outdated, and "Debian Archive
Team" sounds quite nice.
Agreed. I like this name.
Yes, please. "Debian Archive Team" is
On Sat 2021-11-06 11:32:35 +0100, Martin Steigerwald wrote:
> Pierre-Elliott Bécue - 06.11.21, 11:06:58 CET:
>> That being said, the name is indeed outdated, and "Debian Archive
>> Team" sounds quite nice.
>
> Agreed. I like this name.
Yes, please. "Debian Archive Team" is fine. This is fair
On 11/4/21 8:14 PM, Paul R. Tagliamonte wrote:
> The hardest part may very well be changing all the CNAME/A
> records[1][2]
Thanks for volunteering! :)
Cheers,
Thomas Goirand (zigo)
On Sat, Nov 06, 2021 at 11:32:35AM +0100, Martin Steigerwald wrote:
> Pierre-Elliott Bécue - 06.11.21, 11:06:58 CET:
> > That being said, the name is indeed outdated, and "Debian Archive
> > Team" sounds quite nice.
>
> Agreed. I like this name.
+1, and +1 about ***not*** trying to do this
Pierre-Elliott Bécue - 06.11.21, 11:06:58 CET:
> That being said, the name is indeed outdated, and "Debian Archive
> Team" sounds quite nice.
Agreed. I like this name.
Best,
--
Martin
Holger Levsen - 06.11.21, 10:44:24 CET:
> On Fri, Nov 05, 2021 at 03:52:01PM -0700, Felix Lechner wrote:
> > It was impromptu. The mail was intentional only in the sense that I
> > hoped to find a topic to unite people. (Who likes slavery, anway?)
>
> obviously everybody who's not instantly
Hi,
Mattia Rizzolo wrote on 06/11/2021 at 00:31:04+0100:
> If I was given the question: would you like to get rid of the word
> "master" because it reminds somebody of slavery, my answer would be
> NO. (Incidentally, I have similar thoughts about blacklist/whitelist
> and similar SJW crap) In
On Fri, Nov 05, 2021 at 03:52:01PM -0700, Felix Lechner wrote:
> It was impromptu. The mail was intentional only in the sense that I
> hoped to find a topic to unite people. (Who likes slavery, anway?)
obviously everybody who's not instantly supporting renaming ftpmaster :)
I think you got a
Hi,
On 05.11.21 16:11, Ulrike Uhlig wrote:
On 05.11.21 15:23, Gard Spreemann wrote:> Felix Lechner
writes:
Please note that in the former GDR, which seems to be a part of the rest
of Germany nowadays, even though income maps seem to indicate otherwise
[1], the word "Führerschein"
Just dropping my 2cents:
On Sat, 6 Nov 2021, 12:09 am Felix Lechner,
wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 5, 2021 at 2:45 PM Joerg Jaspert wrote:
> >
> > I am pretty sure that was a 100% calculated move
> > to go directly to this.
>
> It was impromptu. The mail was intentional only in the sense that I
> hoped
Hi,
On Fri, Nov 5, 2021 at 2:45 PM Joerg Jaspert wrote:
>
> I am pretty sure that was a 100% calculated move
> to go directly to this.
It was impromptu. The mail was intentional only in the sense that I
hoped to find a topic to unite people. (Who likes slavery, anway?)
Let's lose the fear of
On 16308 March 1977, Jonathan Carter wrote:
I would like to rename the FTP Masters team—ideally via a General
Resolution.
Ideally? Its the worst possible way to go about.
I'm at a loss to actually find polite words to describe how off it
is,
That might be slightly harsh, Felix only became a
On Thu, Nov 04, 2021 at 03:28:07PM -0700, Felix Lechner wrote:
>On Thu, Nov 4, 2021 at 2:14 PM Joerg Jaspert wrote:
>
>> Debian is a very risk averse and slow to change project.
>
>We need more trust. The group has to rise—as a moral force, but
>gently—over the arbitrary and capricious nature
Hi,
> This is turning, yet again, into a "Germans debate German language
> issues" thread.
Please don't worry. Having started it, I will lead us out again.
> it's reasonable for Debian to judge "master of a slave" and
> "master of the package archive" completely differently.
Yes, it's
Hi!
On 05.11.21 15:23, Gard Spreemann wrote:> Felix Lechner
writes:
I'm a native German speaker and "Führer" is widely and
completely uncontroversially used in German in lots of contexts
That is, as you noted, somewhat true for the word "master" as well,
but your portrayal of a wide and
On Fri, Nov 05, 2021 at 06:35:43AM -0700, Felix Lechner wrote:
> > I'm a native German speaker and "Führer" is widely and
> > completely uncontroversially used in German in lots of contexts
>
> That is, as you noted, somewhat true for the word "master" as well,
> but your portrayal of a wide and
Felix Lechner writes:
>> I'm a native German speaker and "Führer" is widely and
>> completely uncontroversially used in German in lots of contexts
>
> That is, as you noted, somewhat true for the word "master" as well,
> but your portrayal of a wide and unequivocal acceptance of the word
>
Hi,
> you mean, people in Debian die? I'm speechless and pretty unimpressed.
Martial law is the ad-hoc implementation of simple laws to control a
population. [1] In modern democracies, it only happens to stop
widespread unlawful behavior during public unrest. While effective, it
is not healthy
On Thu, Nov 04, 2021 at 03:28:07PM -0700, Felix Lechner wrote:
> [...] We effectively live
> under martial law
you mean, people in Debian die? I'm speechless and pretty unimpressed.
--
cheers,
Holger
⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ holger@(debian|reproducible-builds|layer-acht).org
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀
Hi Joerg
On 2021/11/04 23:14, Joerg Jaspert wrote:
I would like to rename the FTP Masters team—ideally via a General
Resolution.
Ideally? Its the worst possible way to go about.
I'm at a loss to actually find polite words to describe how off it is,
That might be slightly harsh, Felix only
Hi,
On Thu, Nov 4, 2021 at 2:14 PM Joerg Jaspert wrote:
>
> I'm at a loss to actually find polite words to describe how off it is,
> to do this via a GR.
The mildest vote in the U.S. House of Representatives is the naming of
a U.S. Post Office. I think it would be such a vote. How can someone
On 16306 March 1977, Felix Lechner wrote:
I would like to rename the FTP Masters team—ideally via a General
Resolution.
Ideally? Its the worst possible way to go about.
I'm at a loss to actually find polite words to describe how off it is,
to do this via a GR. Without even ever asking the
> While I also agree with Paul that the current name is somewhat dated
> technologically, it is not fatally flawed. Therefore, I think we
> should leave the naming decision to the FTP masters themselves.
This doesn't change anything about this thread or this email, but in the spirit
of trying to
> "Timo" == Timo Röhling writes:
Timo> I am fine with any name on which the FTP masters and the DPL
Timo> can agree, including the current one. I would also happily
Timo> ratify their choice via GR if they felt that the whole project
Timo> should have a say. What I do not
Hi Felix,
* Felix Lechner [2021-11-03 14:27]:
I would like to rename the FTP Masters team—ideally via a General Resolution.
[...]
PROPOSED TEXT
In recognizance of the awful history of slavery, the Debian project
will rename the "FTP Masters" team. For a long time, the word "master"
has been
On 11/3/21 10:27 PM, Felix Lechner wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I would like to rename the FTP Masters team—ideally via a General Resolution.
>
> Since the murder of George Floyd, the average fate of Black lives has
> received much attention. Even the tech sector picked up the
> "master/slave" topic over a
I agree. I also don't know if this is something we can just do with the DPL
or not.
The name master isn't great, as is ftp.
No one has suggested a name yet. If this was my proposal, I'd suggest the
debian archive team.
Why can't we just change the name without a GR between the ftpteam and DPL?
I feel like this is something the DPL should just decide together
with the FTP dudes. No GR required, that's just bait.
--
.''`. martin f. krafft @martinkrafft
: :' : proud Debian developer
`. `'` http://people.debian.org/~madduck
`- Debian - when you have better things to do than
On November 3, 2021 9:27:08 PM UTC, Felix Lechner
wrote:
>Hi,
>
>I would like to rename the FTP Masters team—ideally via a General Resolution.
>
>Since the murder of George Floyd, the average fate of Black lives has
>received much attention. Even the tech sector picked up the
>"master/slave"
Hi,
I would like to rename the FTP Masters team—ideally via a General Resolution.
Since the murder of George Floyd, the average fate of Black lives has
received much attention. Even the tech sector picked up the
"master/slave" topic over a year ago. [2][3][4]
There should be little controversy.
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