Re: CRA and PLD vote status

Ilu writes: > Am 08.12.23 um 21:13 schrieb Russ Allbery: >> How about: >> CRA and PLD proposals include regulations detrimental to FOSS > This would be real-english-english? ;-) If it has the same meaning, fine > by me. I've pinged Santiago. Yeah, casually you would normally stick "that

Re: CRA and PLD vote status

On Fri, 8 Dec 2023 at 23:04, Bart Martens wrote: > > On Fri, Dec 08, 2023 at 10:06:45PM +0100, Lucas Nussbaum wrote: > > Hi, > > > > On 08/12/23 at 21:58 +0100, Kurt Roeckx wrote: > > > [ ] Choice 1: CRA and PLD proposals include regulations detrimental to > > > FOSS > > > [ ] Choice 2: The EU

Re: CRA and PLD vote status

On Fri, Dec 08, 2023 at 10:06:45PM +0100, Lucas Nussbaum wrote: > Hi, > > On 08/12/23 at 21:58 +0100, Kurt Roeckx wrote: > > [ ] Choice 1: CRA and PLD proposals include regulations detrimental to FOSS > > [ ] Choice 2: The EU should clarify that non-commercial FOSS is exempted > >

Re: CRA and PLD vote status

El 08/12/23 a las 21:37, Ilu escribió: > Am 08.12.23 um 21:13 schrieb Russ Allbery: > > Ilu writes: > > > > > CRA + PLD proposals include regulations, that will be detrimental > > > to FOSS > > > > How about: > > > > CRA and PLD proposals include regulations detrimental to FOSS > > > >

Re: CRA and PLD vote status

Hi, On 08/12/23 at 21:58 +0100, Kurt Roeckx wrote: > [ ] Choice 1: CRA and PLD proposals include regulations detrimental to FOSS > [ ] Choice 2: The EU should clarify that non-commercial FOSS is exempted "non-commercial FOSS" sounds like CC BY-NC-SA (which is not FOSS). What this option is

Re: CRA and PLD vote status

On Wed, Nov 29, 2023 at 10:39:38PM +0100, Kurt Roeckx wrote: > Hi, > > I've updated the page at https://www.debian.org/vote/2023/vote_002 which > the current status. Here is the draft ballot: Voting period starts 2023-12-09 00:00:00 UTC Votes must be received by 2023

Re: CRA and PLD vote status

Am 08.12.23 um 21:13 schrieb Russ Allbery: Ilu writes: CRA + PLD proposals include regulations, that will be detrimental to FOSS How about: CRA and PLD proposals include regulations detrimental to FOSS This would be real-english-english? ;-) If it has the same meaning, fine by me.

Re: CRA and PLD vote status

Ilu writes: > CRA + PLD proposals include regulations, that will be detrimental > to FOSS How about: CRA and PLD proposals include regulations detrimental to FOSS -- Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org)

Re: CRA and PLD vote status

Am 08.12.23 um 20:55 schrieb Judit Foglszinger: The CRA and PLD proposals include regulations, that will be detrimental to free and open source software We've never had such a long option, and I'm worried this will break for some people trying to vote when it gets wrapped to the next line

Re: CRA and PLD vote status

> > The CRA and PLD proposals include regulations, that will be detrimental > > to free and open source software > > We've never had such a long option, and I'm worried this will break for > some people trying to vote when it gets wrapped to the next line. But it >

Re: CRA and PLD vote status

On Fri, Dec 08, 2023 at 08:43:33PM +0100, Ilu wrote: > The CRA and PLD proposals include regulations, that will be detrimental > to free and open source software We've never had such a long option, and I'm worried this will break for some people trying to vote when it gets wrapped to th

Re: CRA and PLD vote status

The CRA and PLD proposals include regulations, that will be detrimental to free and open source software Am 08.12.23 um 20:40 schrieb Kurt Roeckx: The CRA and PLD will be detrimental to open source software

Re: CRA and PLD vote status

Since the vote will start in a few hours, I need options for the other 2 options. My best attempts so far: A: The CRA and PLD will be detrimental to open source software B: The EU should clarify that non-commercial open source is exempted C: The EU should not overrule DFSG 6 and FOSS licenses

Re: CRA and PLD vote status

t Roeckx > wrote: > >Hi, > > > >I've updated the page at https://www.debian.org/vote/2023/vote_002 which > >the current status. > > > >We're at the maximum discussion period of 3 weeks, so the vote will > >probably start the 10th of December. > > > > > >Kurt > > --

Re: CRA and PLD vote status

Can people make suggestions for the ballot options text? Kurt On November 30, 2023 12:39:38 AM GMT+03:00, Kurt Roeckx wrote: >Hi, > >I've updated the page at https://www.debian.org/vote/2023/vote_002 which >the current status. > >We're at the maximum discussion period of 3

CRA and PLD vote status

Hi, I've updated the page at https://www.debian.org/vote/2023/vote_002 which the current status. We're at the maximum discussion period of 3 weeks, so the vote will probably start the 10th of December. Kurt

Re: Re: Call for vote: public statement about the EU Legislation "Cyber Resilience Act and Product Liability Directive"

On Sun, Nov 19, 2023 at 11:21:47PM +, Luca Boccassi wrote: > Second version, taking into account feedback. Looking for seconds at > this point: > > - GENERAL RESOLUTION STARTS - > > Debian Public Statement about the EU Cyber Resilience Act and the > Product Liability

Re: Call for vote: public statement about the EU Legislation "Cyber Resilience Act and Product Liability Directive"

Seconded. Luca Boccassi writes: > Second version, taking into account feedback. Looking for seconds at > this point: > - GENERAL RESOLUTION STARTS - > Debian Public Statement about the EU Cyber Resilience Act and the > Product Liability Directive > The European Union

Re: Re: Call for vote: public statement about the EU Legislation "Cyber Resilience Act and Product Liability Directive"

On Sun, Nov 19, 2023 at 11:21:47PM +, Luca Boccassi wrote: > Second version, taking into account feedback. Looking for seconds at > this point: So I'm still only counting 4 seconds at this point. Kurt

Re: Call for vote: public statement about the EU Legislation "Cyber Resilience Act and Product Liability Directive"

On Thu, Nov 23, 2023 at 10:30:01AM +, Luca Boccassi wrote: > On Wed, 22 Nov 2023 at 20:35, Bart Martens wrote: > > > > On Wed, Nov 22, 2023 at 06:46:06PM +, Luca Boccassi wrote: > > > On Wed, 22 Nov 2023 at 09:28, Bart Martens wrote: > > > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 21, 2023 at 09:14:05AM

Re: Call for vote: public statement about the EU Legislation "Cyber Resilience Act and Product Liability Directive"

On Wed, 22 Nov 2023 at 20:35, Bart Martens wrote: > > On Wed, Nov 22, 2023 at 06:46:06PM +, Luca Boccassi wrote: > > On Wed, 22 Nov 2023 at 09:28, Bart Martens wrote: > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 21, 2023 at 09:14:05AM +0100, Thomas Goirand wrote: > > > > I feel like we're getting trapped by big

Re: Call for vote: public statement about the EU Legislation "Cyber Resilience Act and Product Liability Directive"

On Wed, Nov 22, 2023 at 06:46:06PM +, Luca Boccassi wrote: > On Wed, 22 Nov 2023 at 09:28, Bart Martens wrote: > > > > On Tue, Nov 21, 2023 at 09:14:05AM +0100, Thomas Goirand wrote: > > > I feel like we're getting trapped by big corp and their lobbying > > > power, and we need to use

Re: Call for vote: public statement about the EU Legislation "Cyber Resilience Act and Product Liability Directive"

On Wed, 22 Nov 2023 at 09:28, Bart Martens wrote: > > On Tue, Nov 21, 2023 at 09:14:05AM +0100, Thomas Goirand wrote: > > I feel like we're getting trapped by big corp and their lobbying > > power, and we need to use stronger words. > > Probably in a different way. I'd rather prefer Debian to

Re: Re: Call for vote: public statement about the EU Legislation "Cyber Resilience Act and Product Liability Directive"

On Sun, 2023-11-19 at 23:21 +, Luca Boccassi wrote: > Second version, taking into account feedback. Looking for seconds at > this point: Elbrus spotted a typo, fixed below - that's the only change, "taking taking" -> "taking" in the second paragraph - GENERAL RESOLUTION STARTS -

Re: Call for vote: public statement about the EU Legislation "Cyber Resilience Act and Product Liability Directive"

his is, in my understanding, a different opinion than discussed so far, right? > > In the absence of something better, I'll still vote for the above... > > Cheers, > > Thomas Goirand (zigo) >

Re: Call for vote: public statement about the EU Legislation "Cyber Resilience Act and Product Liability Directive"

On Tue, 21 Nov 2023 at 16:46, Salvo Tomaselli wrote: > > In data martedì 21 novembre 2023 16:13:32 CET, Luca Boccassi ha scritto: > > > Microsoft was not happy with having to unbundle Bing and Edge from > > Windows. > > It is still impossible to uninstall edge...

Re: Re: Call for vote: public statement about the EU Legislation "Cyber Resilience Act and Product Liability Directive"

Santiago Ruano Rincón dijo [Tue, Nov 21, 2023 at 01:15:40PM -0300]: > > > I second adding this version to the vote > > > > I'm getting a bad signature on this. > > > > > On Mon, 20 Nov 2023 at 00:22, Luca Boccassi wrote: > > > Second version, taki

Re: Re: Call for vote: public statement about the EU Legislation "Cyber Resilience Act and Product Liability Directive"

El 20/11/23 a las 08:53, Kurt Roeckx escribió: > On Mon, Nov 20, 2023 at 12:40:58AM +0100, Aigars Mahinovs wrote: > > I second adding this version to the vote > > I'm getting a bad signature on this. > > > On Mon, 20 Nov 2023 at 00:22, Luca Boccassi wrote: &g

Re: Call for vote: public statement about the EU Legislation "Cyber Resilience Act and Product Liability Directive"

On Tue, 21 Nov 2023 at 08:14, Thomas Goirand wrote: > > On 11/20/23 00:21, Luca Boccassi wrote: > > Second version, taking into account feedback. Looking for seconds at > > this point: > > > > - GENERAL RESOLUTION STARTS - > > > > Debian Public Statement about the EU Cyber

Re: Call for vote: public statement about the EU Legislation "Cyber Resilience Act and Product Liability Directive"

we need to use stronger words. In the absence of something better, I'll still vote for the above... Cheers, Thomas Goirand (zigo)

Re: Call for vote: public statement about the EU Legislation "Cyber Resilience Act and Product Liability Directive"

Seconded Second version, taking into account feedback. Looking for seconds at this point: - GENERAL RESOLUTION STARTS - Debian Public Statement about the EU Cyber Resilience Act and the Product Liability Directive The European Union is currently preparing a regulation

Re: Call for vote: public statement about the EU Legislation "Cyber Resilience Act and Product Liability Directive"

Seconded. On 20/11/23 at 17:54 +0100, Chris Hofstaedtler wrote: > I second adding this version. > > * Luca Boccassi [231119 23:22]: > > Second version, taking into account feedback. Looking for seconds at > > this point: > > > > - GENERAL RESOLUTION STARTS - > > > > Debian

Re: Call for vote: public statement about the EU Legislation "Cyber Resilience Act and Product Liability Directive"

I second adding this version. * Luca Boccassi [231119 23:22]: > Second version, taking into account feedback. Looking for seconds at > this point: > > - GENERAL RESOLUTION STARTS - > > Debian Public Statement about the EU Cyber Resilience Act and the > Product Liability

Re: Call for vote: public statement about the EU Legislation "Cyber Resilience Act and Product Liability Directive"

Hi, On 11/20/23 08:21, Luca Boccassi wrote: Therefore, the Debian project asks the legislators to enhance the text of these regulations to clarify beyond any reasonable doubt that Free and Open Source Software developers and contributors are not going to be treated as

Re: Re: Call for vote: public statement about the EU Legislation "Cyber Resilience Act and Product Liability Directive"

I'll just attach the signed version, it seems like GMail plain text mode is still a bit broken. On Mon, 20 Nov 2023 at 08:53, Kurt Roeckx wrote: > > On Mon, Nov 20, 2023 at 12:40:58AM +0100, Aigars Mahinovs wrote: > > I second adding this version to the vote > > I'm getti

Re: Re: Re: Call for vote: public statement about the EU Legislation "Cyber Resilience Act and Product Liability Directive"

> > Second version, taking into account feedback. Looking for seconds > at > > this point: > > Maybe Santiago wants to adopt this text, rather than having 2 > options? Already attempted that last week: https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2023/11/msg00051.html Unfo

Re: Re: Call for vote: public statement about the EU Legislation "Cyber Resilience Act and Product Liability Directive"

On Mon, Nov 20, 2023 at 12:40:58AM +0100, Aigars Mahinovs wrote: > I second adding this version to the vote I'm getting a bad signature on this. > On Mon, 20 Nov 2023 at 00:22, Luca Boccassi wrote: > Second version, taking into account feedback. Looking for seconds at > this p

Re: Re: Call for vote: public statement about the EU Legislation "Cyber Resilience Act and Product Liability Directive"

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 I second adding this version to the vote On Mon, 20 Nov 2023 at 00:22, Luca Boccassi wrote: Second version, taking into account feedback. Looking for seconds at this point: - GENERAL RESOLUTION STARTS - Debian Public Statement

Re: Call for vote: public statement about the EU Legislation "Cyber Resilience Act and Product Liability Directive"

On Sun, 19 Nov 2023 at 00:21, Sam Hartman wrote: > > > "Bart" == Bart Martens writes: > >> > >> * A commercial company writes free-software that for all > >> practical purposes can be used only for access to their > >> proprietary web service. I'd rather not allow arguments

Re: Re: Call for vote: public statement about the EU Legislation "Cyber Resilience Act and Product Liability Directive"

Second version, taking into account feedback. Looking for seconds at this point: - GENERAL RESOLUTION STARTS - Debian Public Statement about the EU Cyber Resilience Act and the Product Liability Directive The European Union is currently preparing a regulation "on

Re: Call for vote: public statement about the EU Legislation "Cyber Resilience Act and Product Liability Directive"

> "Bart" == Bart Martens writes: >> >> * A commercial company writes free-software that for all >> practical purposes can be used only for access to their >> proprietary web service. I'd rather not allow arguments about >> whether a flaw is on the web service side or the

Re: Call for vote: public statement about the EU Legislation "Cyber Resilience Act and Product Liability Directive"

On Sat, Nov 18, 2023 at 11:43:27AM -0700, Sam Hartman wrote: > > "Bart" == Bart Martens writes: > > Bart> On Wed, Nov 15, 2023 at 02:52:31PM +0100, Lucas Nussbaum wrote: > >> I wonder if we should have something like "Free software > >> development by nonprofit organizations"

Re: Call for vote: public statement about the EU Legislation "Cyber Resilience Act and Product Liability Directive"

4c7f-b172-f967f7de7...@gmx.net>), and as we have > > discussed during the MiniDebConf UY 2023 with other Debian Members, I > > would like to call for a vote about issuing a Debian public statement > > regarding > > the EU Cyber Resilience Act (CRA) and the Product Lia

Re: Call for vote: public statement about the EU Legislation "Cyber Resilience Act and Product Liability Directive"

> "Bart" == Bart Martens writes: Bart> On Wed, Nov 15, 2023 at 02:52:31PM +0100, Lucas Nussbaum wrote: >> I wonder if we should have something like "Free software >> development by nonprofit organizations" somewhere. Bart> Are we now drawing a line between profit and

Re: Call for vote: public statement about the EU Legislation "Cyber Resilience Act and Product Liability Directive"

On Mon, Nov 13, 2023 at 03:57:44PM +0100, Aigars Mahinovs wrote: > On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 at 15:51, Lisandro Damián Nicanor Pérez Meyer < > perezme...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 at 11:50, Aigars Mahinovs wrote: > > > Whether accepting donations *in general* makes your activity in >

Re: Call for vote: public statement about the EU Legislation "Cyber Resilience Act and Product Liability Directive"

On Wed, Nov 15, 2023 at 02:52:31PM +0100, Lucas Nussbaum wrote: > I wonder if we should have something like "Free software development by > nonprofit organizations" somewhere. Are we now drawing a line between profit and nonprofit? In my view, with Free Software it should not matter who produces,

Re: Call for vote: public statement about the EU Legislation "Cyber Resilience Act and Product Liability Directive"

during the MiniDebConf UY 2023 with other Debian Members, I would like to call for a vote about issuing a Debian public statement regarding the EU Cyber Resilience Act (CRA) and the Product Liability Directive (PLD). The CRA is in the final stage in the legislative process in the EU Parliament, and we

Re: Call for vote: public statement about the EU Legislation "Cyber Resilience Act and Product Liability Directive"

On Thu, 16 Nov 2023 at 02:54, Simon Richter wrote: [snip] > That would also be a consistent position: "as long as the source code is > public under a DFSG-compliant license, the open source exemption should > apply even to works produced for commercial gain." > > However, I do not think the EU

Re: Call for vote: public statement about the EU Legislation "Cyber Resilience Act and Product Liability Directive"

Hi, On 11/15/23 20:27, Aigars Mahinovs wrote: That is exactly why I think this is dangerous: I want GitLab and Proxmox to be responsible for what they release, but it is very difficult to draw a line between their offering and what Microsoft is doing by paying for

Re: Call for vote: public statement about the EU Legislation "Cyber Resilience Act and Product Liability Directive"

On 15/11/23 at 14:13 +, Luca Boccassi wrote: > On Wed, 15 Nov 2023 at 13:53, Lucas Nussbaum wrote: > > > > On 15/11/23 at 11:38 +, Luca Boccassi wrote: > > > On Wed, 15 Nov 2023 at 06:23, Lucas Nussbaum wrote: > > > > > > > > On 15/11/23 at 00:49 +, Luca Boccassi wrote: > > > > >

Re: Call for vote: public statement about the EU Legislation "Cyber Resilience Act and Product Liability Directive"

On Wed, 15 Nov 2023 at 13:53, Lucas Nussbaum wrote: > > On 15/11/23 at 11:38 +, Luca Boccassi wrote: > > On Wed, 15 Nov 2023 at 06:23, Lucas Nussbaum wrote: > > > > > > On 15/11/23 at 00:49 +, Luca Boccassi wrote: > > > > What do you think? Here's what I came up with: > > > > > > Hi, > >

Re: Call for vote: public statement about the EU Legislation "Cyber Resilience Act and Product Liability Directive"

On 15/11/23 at 11:38 +, Luca Boccassi wrote: > On Wed, 15 Nov 2023 at 06:23, Lucas Nussbaum wrote: > > > > On 15/11/23 at 00:49 +, Luca Boccassi wrote: > > > What do you think? Here's what I came up with: > > > > Hi, > > > > FWIW, I would likely second something along those lines. Some

Re: Call for vote: public statement about the EU Legislation "Cyber Resilience Act and Product Liability Directive"

an-project (Message-ID: > > > <4b93ed08-f148-4c7f-b172-f967f7de7...@gmx.net>), and as we have > > > discussed during the MiniDebConf UY 2023 with other Debian Members, I > > > would like to call for a vote about issuing a Debian public statement > > > rega

Re: Call for vote: public statement about the EU Legislation "Cyber Resilience Act and Product Liability Directive"

t;), and as we have > > discussed during the MiniDebConf UY 2023 with other Debian Members, I > > would like to call for a vote about issuing a Debian public statement > > regarding > > the EU Cyber Resilience Act (CRA) and the Product Liability Directive > > (PLD). The CRA

Re: Call for vote: public statement about the EU Legislation "Cyber Resilience Act and Product Liability Directive"

On Wed, 15 Nov 2023 at 06:23, Lucas Nussbaum wrote: > > On 15/11/23 at 00:49 +, Luca Boccassi wrote: > > What do you think? Here's what I came up with: > > Hi, > > FWIW, I would likely second something along those lines. Some comments: > > > The Debian project however notes that not

Re: Call for vote: public statement about the EU Legislation "Cyber Resilience Act and Product Liability Directive"

On Wed, 15 Nov 2023 at 12:14, Simon Richter wrote: > Hi, > > On 11/15/23 15:22, Lucas Nussbaum wrote: > > >> The Debian project however notes that not enough emphasis has been > >> employed in all parts of these regulations to clearly exonerate > Free > >> and Open Source Software

Re: Call for vote: public statement about the EU Legislation "Cyber Resilience Act and Product Liability Directive"

Hi, On 11/15/23 15:22, Lucas Nussbaum wrote: The Debian project however notes that not enough emphasis has been employed in all parts of these regulations to clearly exonerate Free and Open Source Software Projects from being subject to the same liabilities as commercial

Re: Call for vote: public statement about the EU Legislation "Cyber Resilience Act and Product Liability Directive"

On 15/11/23 at 00:49 +, Luca Boccassi wrote: > What do you think? Here's what I came up with: Hi, FWIW, I would likely second something along those lines. Some comments: > The Debian project however notes that not enough emphasis has been > employed in all parts of these regulations

Re: Call for vote: public statement about the EU Legislation "Cyber Resilience Act and Product Liability Directive"

her Debian Members, I > would like to call for a vote about issuing a Debian public statement > regarding > the EU Cyber Resilience Act (CRA) and the Product Liability Directive > (PLD). The CRA is in the final stage in the legislative process in the > EU Parliament, and we think

Re: Call for vote: public statement about the EU Legislation "Cyber Resilience Act and Product Liability Directive"

On 11/14/23 02:17, Philip Hands wrote: Lisandro Damián Nicanor Pérez Meyer writes: ... Just to be clear: I also do agree with the main intention of the proposal, what I do not like is that the current draft wording might backfire on us. I'd expect the multinationals, who have large legal

Re: Call for vote: public statement about the EU Legislation "Cyber Resilience Act and Product Liability Directive"

Lisandro Damián Nicanor Pérez Meyer writes: ... > Just to be clear: I also do agree with the main intention of the > proposal, what I do not like is that the current draft wording might > backfire on us. I'd expect the multinationals, who have large legal teams, and are used to interacting with

Re: Call for vote: public statement about the EU Legislation "Cyber Resilience Act and Product Liability Directive"

Debian Members, I > would like to call for a vote about issuing a Debian public statement > regarding > the EU Cyber Resilience Act (CRA) and the Product Liability Directive > (PLD). The CRA is in the final stage in the legislative process in the > EU Parliament, and we think it wil

Re: Call for vote: public statement about the EU Legislation "Cyber Resilience Act and Product Liability Directive"

. Peculiarly I am also not against Debian passing the resolution as it stands because the negotiatiators in the loop of reconciliation *are* able to use Debians position to argue for better open source conditions, even if the actual text in the Debian vote *were* far from perfect or accurate. (Which I am

Re: Call for vote: public statement about the EU Legislation "Cyber Resilience Act and Product Liability Directive"

in the Debian vote *were* far from perfect or accurate. (Which I am not saying it is) On Mon, 13 Nov 2023, 17:32 Ilu, wrote: > At the moment - as the official proposals are worded now - everything > depends on the meaning of the word "commercial". Please note that the > proposals

Re: Call for vote: public statement about the EU Legislation "Cyber Resilience Act and Product Liability Directive"

ubstantial way. Law enforcement is pressuring for it. All the more reason to voice dissent. Ilu Am 13.11.23 um 14:46 schrieb Aigars Mahinovs: On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 at 12:31, Luca Boccassi wrote: I am *not* objecting to Debian taking such a vote and expressing the stance intended. However

Re: Call for vote: public statement about the EU Legislation "Cyber Resilience Act and Product Liability Directive"

ollowing the email sent by Ilu to debian-project (Message-ID: <4b93ed08-f148-4c7f-b172-f967f7de7...@gmx.net>), and as we have discussed during the MiniDebConf UY 2023 with other Debian Members, I would like to call for a vote about issuing a Debian public statement regarding the EU Cyber Resil

Re: Call for vote: public statement about the EU Legislation "Cyber Resilience Act and Product Liability Directive"

On November 13, 2023 12:29:20 PM UTC, "Lisandro Damián Nicanor Pérez Meyer" wrote: >On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 at 07:55, Aigars Mahinovs wrote: >[snip] >> Even regardless of the specific legal wording in the legislation itself, the >> point 10 >> of the preamble would be enough to to fix any "bug"

Re: Call for vote: public statement about the EU Legislation "Cyber Resilience Act and Product Liability Directive"

7de7...@gmx.net>), and as we have > discussed during the MiniDebConf UY 2023 with other Debian Members, I > would like to call for a vote about issuing a Debian public statement > regarding > the EU Cyber Resilience Act (CRA) and the Product Liability Directive > (PLD). The CRA is in t

Re: Call for vote: public statement about the EU Legislation "Cyber Resilience Act and Product Liability Directive"

Aigars Mahinovs dijo [Mon, Nov 13, 2023 at 02:46:06PM +0100]: > By now the EU is actually quite used to dealing with volunteer > projects and open source projects in general. So they would not be > surprised in the slightest. And I do not believe it would tarnish > the image of Debian. > > A lot

Re: Call for vote: public statement about the EU Legislation "Cyber Resilience Act and Product Liability Directive"

On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 at 15:51, Lisandro Damián Nicanor Pérez Meyer < perezme...@gmail.com> wrote: > On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 at 11:50, Aigars Mahinovs wrote: > > Whether accepting donations *in general* makes your activity in > providing software a "commercial activity" in the context of > > this

Re: Call for vote: public statement about the EU Legislation "Cyber Resilience Act and Product Liability Directive"

On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 at 11:50, Aigars Mahinovs wrote: > > You are mixing up completely unrelated things. Commercial entities and > software coming from it have nothing to do with commercial activity. > > The commercial activity is what *you* are doing with the software. It is > completely

Re: Call for vote: public statement about the EU Legislation "Cyber Resilience Act and Product Liability Directive"

On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 at 10:37, Holger Levsen wrote: > > On Mon, Nov 13, 2023 at 02:19:38PM +0100, Aigars Mahinovs wrote: > > Correct. And I agree with that effect: > > same here. > > > The *one* negative impact I can see of this legislation is impact on small > > integrators that were used to

Re: Call for vote: public statement about the EU Legislation "Cyber Resilience Act and Product Liability Directive"

You are mixing up completely unrelated things. Commercial entities and software coming from it have nothing to do with commercial activity. The commercial activity is what *you* are doing with the software. It is completely irrelevant where you got it from or if you wrote it. If you are doing

Re: Call for vote: public statement about the EU Legislation "Cyber Resilience Act and Product Liability Directive"

On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 at 09:54, Aigars Mahinovs wrote: > > On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 at 13:29, Lisandro Damián Nicanor Pérez Meyer > wrote: >> >> On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 at 07:55, Aigars Mahinovs wrote: >> [snip] >> > Even regardless of the specific legal wording in the legislation itself, >> > the point

Re: Call for vote: public statement about the EU Legislation "Cyber Resilience Act and Product Liability Directive"

On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 at 12:31, Luca Boccassi wrote: > > > I am *not* objecting to Debian taking such a vote and expressing the > stance intended. However, I expect that it will be seen by the EU > legislators with mifled amusement, because in their context and > understandi

Re: Call for vote: public statement about the EU Legislation "Cyber Resilience Act and Product Liability Directive"

On Mon, Nov 13, 2023 at 02:19:38PM +0100, Aigars Mahinovs wrote: > Correct. And I agree with that effect: same here. > The *one* negative impact I can see of this legislation is impact on small > integrators that were used to being able to go to a > client company, install a bunch of Ubuntu

Re: Call for vote: public statement about the EU Legislation "Cyber Resilience Act and Product Liability Directive"

Correct. And I agree with that effect: * a company paying salary of a developer that contributes to an open source project outside of the commercial activity of the company does *not* expose the company to extra requirements * a company taking *any* software, including open source software, and

Re: Call for vote: public statement about the EU Legislation "Cyber Resilience Act and Product Liability Directive"

On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 at 12:57, Aigars Mahinovs wrote: > > True, the employment status is irrelevant. However, in this example Microsoft > will actually have the liability of > providing the security assurances and support for systemd and related > systems, because they are providing > images of

Re: Call for vote: public statement about the EU Legislation "Cyber Resilience Act and Product Liability Directive"

True, the employment status is irrelevant. However, in this example Microsoft will actually have the liability of providing the security assurances and support for systemd and related systems, because they are providing images of such systems as part of their commercial offering on the Azure cloud

Re: Call for vote: public statement about the EU Legislation "Cyber Resilience Act and Product Liability Directive"

On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 at 13:29, Lisandro Damián Nicanor Pérez Meyer < perezme...@gmail.com> wrote: > On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 at 07:55, Aigars Mahinovs wrote: > [snip] > > Even regardless of the specific legal wording in the legislation itself, > the point 10 > > of the preamble would be enough to to

Re: Call for vote: public statement about the EU Legislation "Cyber Resilience Act and Product Liability Directive"

On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 at 07:55, Aigars Mahinovs wrote: [snip] > Even regardless of the specific legal wording in the legislation itself, the > point 10 > of the preamble would be enough to to fix any "bug" in the legislation in > post-processing via courts. As in - if any interpretation of the

Re: Call for vote: public statement about the EU Legislation "Cyber Resilience Act and Product Liability Directive"

On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 at 12:20, Simon Richter wrote: > > Hi, > > On 13.11.23 19:54, Aigars Mahinovs wrote: > > > So a commercial company releasing open source > > software that is *not* part of their commercial activity (for example a > > router manufacturer releasing an in-house written Git UI)

Re: Call for vote: public statement about the EU Legislation "Cyber Resilience Act and Product Liability Directive"

Hi, On 13.11.23 19:54, Aigars Mahinovs wrote: So a commercial company releasing open source software that is *not* part of their commercial activity (for example a router manufacturer releasing an in-house written Git UI) would be "supplied outside the course of a commercial activity" and

Re: Call for vote: public statement about the EU Legislation "Cyber Resilience Act and Product Liability Directive"

ation itself, the > point 10 of the preamble would be enough to to fix any "bug" in the > legislation in post-processing via courts. As in - if any interpretation of > the wording of the directive is indeed found to be hampering open source > development, then it is

Re: Call for vote: public statement about the EU Legislation "Cyber Resilience Act and Product Liability Directive"

elf, the point 10 of the preamble would be enough to to fix any "bug" in the legislation in post-processing via courts. As in - if any interpretation of the wording of the directive is indeed found to be hampering open source development, then it is clearly in error and contrary to th

Re: Call for vote: public statement about the EU Legislation "Cyber Resilience Act and Product Liability Directive"

an Members, I > would like to call for a vote about issuing a Debian public statement > regarding > the EU Cyber Resilience Act (CRA) and the Product Liability Directive > (PLD). The CRA is in the final stage in the legislative process in the > EU Parliament, and we think it will im

Re: Call for vote: public statement about the EU Legislation "Cyber Resilience Act and Product Liability Directive"

Hi, On 11/13/23 02:47, Lisandro Damián Nicanor Pérez Meyer wrote: Similarly, where the main contributors to free and open-source projects are developers employed by commercial entities and when such developers or the employer can exercise control as to which modifications are accepted in the

Re: Call for vote: public statement about the EU Legislation "Cyber Resilience Act and Product Liability Directive"

On Sun, Nov 12, 2023 at 01:03:38PM -0600, Simon Quigley wrote: > Just for good measure, seconded. This is the 5th second. Kurt

Re: Call for vote: public statement about the EU Legislation "Cyber Resilience Act and Product Liability Directive"

the MiniDebConf UY 2023 with other Debian Members, I would like to call for a vote about issuing a Debian public statement regarding the EU Cyber Resilience Act (CRA) and the Product Liability Directive (PLD). The CRA is in the final stage in the legislative process in the EU Parliame

Re: Call for vote: public statement about the EU Legislation "Cyber Resilience Act and Product Liability Directive"

"Art. 3 (1) ‘product with digital elements’ means any software or hardware product ... (18) ‘manufacturer’ means any natural or legal person who develops or manufactures products with digital elements ... and markets them under his or her name or trademark, whether for payment or free of charge;

Re: Call for vote: public statement about the EU Legislation "Cyber Resilience Act and Product Liability Directive"

On Sun, 12 Nov 2023 at 18:11, Ilulu wrote: > Am 12.11.23 um 19:01 schrieb Luca Boccassi: > > Yes - if it's "made available on the market", which is in the first > > bit that was snipped. Pushing a repository on Gitlab is not "making > > available on the market". > > You are wrong. It is. That's

Re: Call for vote: public statement about the EU Legislation "Cyber Resilience Act and Product Liability Directive"

Am 12.11.23 um 19:01 schrieb Luca Boccassi: Yes - if it's "made available on the market", which is in the first bit that was snipped. Pushing a repository on Gitlab is not "making available on the market". You are wrong. It is. That's why the proposal has: "(10d) The sole act of hosting

Re: Call for vote: public statement about the EU Legislation "Cyber Resilience Act and Product Liability Directive"

On Sun, 12 Nov 2023 at 17:47, Lisandro Damián Nicanor Pérez Meyer wrote: > > Hi, > > On Sun, 12 Nov 2023 at 14:35, Ilulu wrote: > > > [snip] > > (10a) For example, a fully decentralised development model, where no > > single commercial entity exercises control over what is accepted into > > the

Re: Call for vote: public statement about the EU Legislation "Cyber Resilience Act and Product Liability Directive"

On Sun, 12 Nov 2023 at 17:35, Ilulu wrote: > > Am 12.11.23 um 18:09 schrieb Luca Boccassi: > > We do know whether something is commercial or not though ... > > I sincerely doubt that. Just to illustrate this I'm citing a part (only > a part) of one of the regulation drafts which are presently

Re: Call for vote: public statement about the EU Legislation "Cyber Resilience Act and Product Liability Directive"

Hi, On Sun, 12 Nov 2023 at 14:35, Ilulu wrote: > [snip] > (10a) For example, a fully decentralised development model, where no > single commercial entity exercises control over what is accepted into > the project’s code base, should be taken as an indication that the > product has been developed

Re: Call for vote: public statement about the EU Legislation "Cyber Resilience Act and Product Liability Directive"

Am 12.11.23 um 18:38 schrieb Luca Boccassi: Which definitions does the proposal use? Could you please quote them? The first two links do not provide any, as far as I can see. The third link (a blog post, not a piece of legislation) explicitly says: "the Cyber Resilience Act does not define

Re: Call for vote: public statement about the EU Legislation "Cyber Resilience Act and Product Liability Directive"

the email sent by Ilu to debian-project (Message-ID: > >> <4b93ed08-f148-4c7f-b172-f967f7de7...@gmx.net>), and as we have > >> discussed during the MiniDebConf UY 2023 with other Debian Members, I > >> would like to call for a vote about issuing a Debian public statement >

Re: Call for vote: public statement about the EU Legislation "Cyber Resilience Act and Product Liability Directive"

d as we have discussed during the MiniDebConf UY 2023 with other Debian Members, I would like to call for a vote about issuing a Debian public statement regarding the EU Cyber Resilience Act (CRA) and the Product Liability Directive (PLD). The CRA is in the final stage in the legislative proces

Re: Call for vote: public statement about the EU Legislation "Cyber Resilience Act and Product Liability Directive"

-f967f7de7...@gmx.net>), and as we have >> discussed during the MiniDebConf UY 2023 with other Debian Members, I >> would like to call for a vote about issuing a Debian public statement >> regarding >> the EU Cyber Resilience Act (CRA) and the Product Liability Directive

Re: Call for vote: public statement about the EU Legislation "Cyber Resilience Act and Product Liability Directive"

ebian Members, I > would like to call for a vote about issuing a Debian public statement > regarding > the EU Cyber Resilience Act (CRA) and the Product Liability Directive > (PLD). The CRA is in the final stage in the legislative process in the > EU Parliament, and we think it will

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