* Gianfranco Costamagna costamagnagianfra...@yahoo.it [2015-04-30 12:41:27
CEST]:
joke
I would like to raise a complain in #debian-man, because there is many anymals
a woman, but no man at all! this is sexism about men! (just jocking, please
don't take
me seriously)
/joke
You might
(I said it was my last reply on the list... well I'm making an exception :p )
Hi Rhonda,
You might consider this to be with a tongue-in-cheek tone joke style,
but that actually is what privileging a male gaze position is about.
There is a woman with few clothes for the gazing effect of male
Quoting Marko Lindqvist (cazf...@gmail.com):
1) I said I wait debian-women to evaluate the whole situation. As far
as I know you have not been designated to speak on their behalf.
2) I didn't claim there's no occurrences where Sara appears in
bikinis. I said that there can be bikinis
Vincent Lejeune vljn@gmail.com writes:
[…]
It's not only Nintendo : I don't remember Nickelodeon shows that
display sexualised (even lightly) content. I don't know all of their
show though and they target a younger audience than STK.
This is off topic, but you may need to watch iCarly:
Vincent Lejeune escrebeu:
Le 3 mai 2015 01:36, Ansgar Burchardt ans...@debian.org a écrit :
Hi Vincent,
your comparison with Mario Kart as a family-friendly game and just
having looked a bit at the PEGI rating system[1] made me wonder:
[1] http://www.pegi.info/en/index/id/33/
Zlatan Todoric escreveu:
And I am very much offended by your and others constant implications
of white male heterosexuals as we are somekind freaks of nature
and everyone else is so good.
If this is what my words have at any point meant, then please let me ask
for sincere apologies to all of
On 3 May 2015 at 19:29, Vincent Lejeune vljn@gmail.com wrote:
From: Marko Lindqvist cazf...@gmail.com
There's absolutely no point in accepting sexism to Debian. In this
particular case I don't claim to know yet if there is sexism involved,
or are the accusations false - at least there has
I am devastated.
In trying to understand the role of sexism in the game community, I have
discovered that this is not an isolated issue of this game:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexism_in_video_gaming
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamergate_controversy
According to the press and other
2015-05-03 12:24 GMT+02:00 suso.bale...@gmail.com:
I am devastated.
In trying to understand the role of sexism in the game community, I have
discovered that this is not an isolated issue of this game:
No, it is certainly not, and it's not even exclusive of video games.
It kind of extends
On 3 May 2015 at 14:40, Dmitry Smirnov only...@debian.org wrote:
Freedom is about as little censorship as possible (except extreme cases).
Freedom is what we should be protecting even if it leaves someone offended.
That is the price and it is just not possible to please everybody with
Miriam Ruiz escrebeu:
2015-05-03 12:24 GMT+02:00 suso.bale...@gmail.com:
I am devastated.
In trying to understand the role of sexism in the game community, I have
discovered that this is not an isolated issue of this game:
No, it is certainly not, and it's not even exclusive of video
On 05/03/2015 12:24 PM, suso.bale...@gmail.com wrote:
I am devastated.
In trying to understand the role of sexism in the game community, I
have discovered that this is not an isolated issue of this game:
Maybe you didn't notice, but Debian is *not* a gaming community.
Letna letna.debian at inbox.com writes:
Catherine Gramze rhiamom at mac.com writes:
Somebody mentioned that there are no human male characters in the game.
That changes things. I can no longer
believe the character Sara to be harmless.
As already mentioned by the developers themselves
2015-05-03 20:29 GMT+02:00 Catherine Gramze rhia...@mac.com:
I agree that talking to upstream is unlikely to help. If they thought
replacing a neutral character with Sara was a good idea then they are not
likely to see any issues with Sara. They like her and want her in the game. I
think
Miriam Ruiz miriam at debian.org writes:
2015-05-03 19:46 GMT+02:00 Letna letna.debian at inbox.com:
Woops forgot the link
[1] http://forum.freegamedev.net/viewtopic.php?f=18t=6325
That was posted 2 days ago (01 May 2015, 20:54). It's kind of
suspicious (all this discussion started
2015-05-03 20:49 GMT+02:00 Letna letna.deb...@inbox.com:
I frankly consider this thread quizzical: first there were accusation
of racism and sexism, then the racism accusation was dropped (after
a message by a Mexican Debian Developer), then the request was to shield
children from naked skin
Miriam Ruiz escrebeu:
2015-05-03 20:29 GMT+02:00 Catherine Gramze rhia...@mac.com:
I agree that talking to upstream is unlikely to help. If they thought
replacing a neutral character with Sara was a good idea then they are not
likely to see any issues with Sara. They like her and want
Vincent Lejeune vljn@gmail.com writes:
Le 3 mai 2015 01:36, Ansgar Burchardt ans...@debian.org a écrit :
Hi Vincent,
your comparison with Mario Kart as a family-friendly game and just
having looked a bit at the PEGI rating system[1] made me wonder:
[1]
Catherine Gramze rhiamom at mac.com writes:
Somebody mentioned that there are no human male characters in the game.
That changes things. I can no longer
believe the character Sara to be harmless.
As already mentioned by the developers themselves in this very thread,
the human male character
On May 3, 2015, at 1:37 PM, Letna letna.deb...@inbox.com wrote:
Catherine Gramze rhiamom at mac.com writes:
Somebody mentioned that there are no human male characters in the game.
That changes things. I can no longer
believe the character Sara to be harmless.
As already mentioned by
On May 3, 2015, at 2:31 PM, Letna letna.deb...@inbox.com wrote:
I see from your comment that (as many in this thread), you haven't played
the game. This is a video depicting Sara and her kart [1], far far
different from your allusive description.
[1]
Vincent Lejeune vljn@gmail.com writes:
I attached the patches in the mail.
remove_sara_pants_animation.patch can be aplied on 0.8.1 (which is
already shipping in debian testing).
The others 2 removes the monkeys in cocoa_temple and the women in
bikini in gran paradisio island.
Please
On May 3, 2015, at 2:18 PM, Miriam Ruiz mir...@debian.org wrote:
I haven't talked with upstream myself (and I don't really have plans
to do so), but I've seen some IRC logs and I don't have the feeling
that they might be very sensitive to these issues. In fact, I see a
potential problem
2015-05-03 19:46 GMT+02:00 Letna letna.deb...@inbox.com:
Woops forgot the link
[1] http://forum.freegamedev.net/viewtopic.php?f=18t=6325
That was posted 2 days ago (01 May 2015, 20:54). It's kind of
suspicious (all this discussion started the 28th of April).
Honestly, from outside at least,
Catherine Gramze rhiamom at mac.com writes:
Will this future male character have a video clip exposing his underwear
while he flexes his muscles? Will
he appear on the track sideline 8 times? Will he be a playable character,
still in his swimsuit? And why is
his swimsuit not a Speedo, if a
On Sat, 2 May 2015 11:34:14 iammyr wrote:
If that's the case then I perfectly see how Debian should do something
about this. It's not that because everyone is used to only see useless
females in videogames since Super Mario came along, then this should
continue happening for ever and Debian
Hi Vincent, Miriam and Suso,
I absolutely support your positions. In particular I totally agree with
this:
On 01/05/15 17:39, Vincent Lejeune wrote:
Actually it is not inappropriate in a age rating perspective.
It's rather : a game that was presented as a family game and which had
a non human
iammyr wrote:
Hi Vincent, Miriam and Suso,
I absolutely support your positions.
Just dropping a line to let you know that I also see the concers raised
and argued by all of you, in case it matters.
--
.''`.The world breaks everyone, and afterward, some are
: :' :strong at
2015-05-01 23:47 GMT+02:00 Gaudenz Steinlin gaud...@debian.org:
Vincent Lejeune vljn@gmail.com writes:
From: Brian Gupta
Addressing the question of age-inappropriateness and speaking as a
parent of a young boy and girl, who tries to be vigilant for
age-inappropriate content, I see
Hi Vincent,
your comparison with Mario Kart as a family-friendly game and just
having looked a bit at the PEGI rating system[1] made me wonder:
[1] http://www.pegi.info/en/index/id/33/
Most Super Mario and Mario Kart games seem to have a PEGI 3 and a few
PEGI 7.
The description for PEGI 12
2015-05-03 0:41 GMT+02:00 Vincent Lejeune vljn@gmail.com:
I attached the patches in the mail.
remove_sara_pants_animation.patch can be aplied on 0.8.1 (which is
already shipping in debian testing).
The others 2 removes the monkeys in cocoa_temple and the women in
bikini in gran paradisio
Le 3 mai 2015 01:36, Ansgar Burchardt ans...@debian.org a écrit :
Hi Vincent,
your comparison with Mario Kart as a family-friendly game and just
having looked a bit at the PEGI rating system[1] made me wonder:
[1] http://www.pegi.info/en/index/id/33/
Most Super Mario and Mario Kart
Sure. I have explicitly asked why that sexualized character was included
in the game [1]. I wanted to discern whether it was because:
a) it plays some role in the storyline, or
b) it was just the outcome of sexist behavior among developers
Or c) other reasons. The real world doesn't
Ansgar Burchardt escrebeu:
Sure. I have explicitly asked why that sexualized character was included
in the game [1]. I wanted to discern whether it was because:
a) it plays some role in the storyline, or
b) it was just the outcome of sexist behavior among developers
Or c)
2015-05-01 17:22 GMT+02:00 Ansgar Burchardt ans...@debian.org:
Anyway, I don't think this is still relevant to debian-devel-games@ and
will try to end the discussion here.
I don't see how this won't be relevant for the Debian Games Team, when
the package is currently maintained by the Debian
suso.bale...@gmail.com writes:
Sure. I have explicitly asked why that sexualized character was included
in the game [1]. I wanted to discern whether it was because:
a) it plays some role in the storyline, or
b) it was just the outcome of sexist behavior among developers
Or c) other
suso.bale...@gmail.com writes:
Ansgar Burchardt escreveu:
I find you equating images like [1] with Hentai porn characters a bit
disturbing... Same for jumping to conclusions about the authors earlier:
Of course not that one. Judge yourself:
http://i.imgur.com/FkeD8PV.jpg
Miriam Ruiz mir...@debian.org writes:
2015-05-01 17:22 GMT+02:00 Ansgar Burchardt ans...@debian.org:
Anyway, I don't think this is still relevant to debian-devel-games@ and
will try to end the discussion here.
I don't see how this won't be relevant for the Debian Games Team, when
the package
2015-05-01 18:39 GMT+02:00 Vincent Lejeune vljn@gmail.com:
Actually it is not inappropriate in a age rating perspective.
It's rather : a game that was presented as a family game and which had
a non human cast for years is now adopting the stance of an
heterosexual male point of view.
On Fri, May 01, 2015 at 06:01:45PM +0200, Miriam Ruiz wrote:
2015-05-01 17:22 GMT+02:00 Ansgar Burchardt ans...@debian.org:
Anyway, I don't think this is still relevant to debian-devel-games@ and
will try to end the discussion here.
I don't see how this won't be relevant for the Debian
2015-05-01 4:45 GMT+02:00 Gunnar Wolf gw...@gwolf.org:
Vincent Lejeune dijo [Thu, Apr 30, 2015 at 09:26:23PM +0200]:
The poster by itself is not really about sexism, but rather about
cultural appropriation:
First Sara is white in what appears to be a native american like outfit.
Then she is
Vincent Lejeune dijo [Fri, May 01, 2015 at 06:40:01PM +0200]:
Thanks for your answer, it's interesting.
I initially asked a native american feminist about these issues on twitter,
she told me that the poster was mixing random cultural element together,
I interpreted that as offensive. But now
From: Brian Gupta
Addressing the question of age-inappropriateness and speaking as a
parent of a young boy and girl, who tries to be vigilant for
age-inappropriate content, I see absolutely no issue with this game,
and would consider it appropriate for all ages. (This is by my own
relatively
Vincent Lejeune vljn.ovi at gmail.com writes:
Actually it is not inappropriate in a age rating perspective.
It's rather : *snip*
Vincent,
could you please link of to the forum/mailing-list thread where you
tried to engage the STK dev-team on the matter? Because I can't find
any.
--
To
Hi All,
[quoting myself]
we might need to patch/drop half the debian-games archive, women are
like a totem for men, specially for developers, and I guess we won't
(they, I'm not a game developer) remove them in games :)
Yes, that is a comment making use of sexist stereotypes about
Vincent Lejeune vljn.ovi at gmail.com writes:
Actually it is not inappropriate in a age rating perspective.
It's rather : *snip*
Vincent,
could you please link of to the forum/mailing-list thread where you
tried to engage the STK dev-team on the matter? Because I can't find
any.
It was
Ansgar Burchardt escrebeu:
Miriam Ruiz mir...@debian.org writes:
2015-05-01 17:22 GMT+02:00 Ansgar Burchardt ans...@debian.org:
Anyway, I don't think this is still relevant to debian-devel-games@ and
will try to end the discussion here.
I don't see how this won't be relevant for the
Vincent Lejeune vljn@gmail.com writes:
From: Brian Gupta
Addressing the question of age-inappropriateness and speaking as a
parent of a young boy and girl, who tries to be vigilant for
age-inappropriate content, I see absolutely no issue with this game,
and would consider it appropriate for
Ansgar Burchardt escreveu:
I find you equating images like [1] with Hentai porn characters a bit
disturbing... Same for jumping to conclusions about the authors earlier:
Of course not that one. Judge yourself:
http://i.imgur.com/FkeD8PV.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/NMD1gmJ.jpg
Addressing the question of age-inappropriateness and speaking as a
parent of a young boy and girl, who tries to be vigilant for
age-inappropriate content, I see absolutely no issue with this game,
and would consider it appropriate for all ages. (This is by my own
relatively puritanical US moral
Hi,
On 04/30/2015 08:09 AM, Miriam Ruiz wrote:
I agree that this should ideally be fixed upstream. I haven't looked
at latest upstream release yet either, and I doubt I will be able to
in at least a couple of weeks, but from what it seems from Vincent
Lejeune's description, it doesn't look
Hi to All,
[1]
http://supertuxkart.sourceforge.net/persistent/images/8/82/OfficialPoster_090.jpg
[2]
http://supertuxkart.sourceforge.net/persistent/images/6/65/OfficialPoster_081.jpg
I see one woman, and ~15 anymals, no men at all.
How can this be interpreted as privileging a male
Hi,
On Thu, Apr 30, 2015 at 11:50 AM, Gianfranco Costamagna
costamagnagianfra...@yahoo.it wrote:
I see one woman, and ~15 anymals, no men at all.
How can this be interpreted as privileging a male gaze position.?
I think the issue is that the woman is scantily clad. That said, I
also don't
Hi Margarita,
I think the issue is that the woman is scantily clad. That said, I
also don't find those posters particularly disturbing. From the
original description I expect the in-game graphics are much more
explicit and the constant appearance of scantily clad women becomes
disturbing.
I do not understand the added value of displaying sexualized
characters in the game. Perhaps the concept of a semi-naked
white woman with anorexia plays some unreplaceable role in
the storyline that, let's say, a similarly dressed but
healthy latino man cannot not. Not enough information.
Could
On 30/04/15 07:56 AM, suso.bale...@gmail.com wrote:
I do not understand the added value of displaying sexualized
characters in the game. Perhaps the concept of a semi-naked
white woman with anorexia plays some unreplaceable role in
the storyline that, let's say, a similarly dressed but
Ingame pictures (using imgur) of Sara :
http://i.imgur.com/eT0WmrV.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/X8sYzYc.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Zkil96v.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/fNo3HDj.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/FkeD8PV.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/NMD1gmJ.jpg
The Sara model in bikini is fine per se, buthaving it 8 times in a
Hi,
On Thu, Apr 30, 2015 at 09:26:23PM +0200, Vincent Lejeune wrote:
To be honest I'm hoping a bit that having downstream discussing the
representation in STK may make they change their mind.
While I much appreciate the concern for the way a kid-oriented game is
depicting the female figure, I
2015-04-30 23:05 GMT+02:00 b...@debian.org:
Hi,
On Thu, Apr 30, 2015 at 09:26:23PM +0200, Vincent Lejeune wrote:
To be honest I'm hoping a bit that having downstream discussing the
representation in STK may make they change their mind.
While I much appreciate the concern for the way a
Steve Langasek escrebeu:
The phrase male gaze refers to content rendered from the *point of view*
of the (implicitly heterosexual) male. So images of women instead of men is
consistent with this idea, on the grounds that men would rather look at
(sexy) images of women than at images of men.
Vincent Lejeune dijo [Thu, Apr 30, 2015 at 09:26:23PM +0200]:
The poster by itself is not really about sexism, but rather about
cultural appropriation:
First Sara is white in what appears to be a native american like outfit.
Then she is in front of a religious building (the pyramid) and wear a
suso.bale...@gmail.com writes:
Pedophilic or not, a sexualized adolescent depicted following the
standards of Hentai porn characters in a kids' game is too much to be
ignored, sorry.
I find you equating images like [1] with Hentai porn characters a bit
disturbing... Same for jumping to
Ansgar Burchardt ansgar at debian.org writes:
suso.baleato at gmail.com writes:
Pedophilic or not, a sexualized adolescent depicted following the
standards of Hentai porn characters in a kids' game is too much to be
ignored, sorry.
I find you equating images like [1] with Hentai porn
Hi Vincent,
you are totally right: those images are sexist and racist. For those who
see nothing wrong with them: do you know why a swim suite can be worn
only at the beach and not anywhere else? would walking in biking among
other totally dressed individuals, attract sexual attention? and while
b...@debian.org escrebeu:
Debian has already quite its share of heated debate around sexism,
enough for me to unsubscribe from various lists to keep my sanity, so
The fact is that sexist behavior produces rejection in modern societies.
Debian is not an isolated bubble floating in some ivory
Hi Marko,
From the screenshots on http://supertuxkart.blogspot.fi/ it seems
that she does have clothes on in the game itself (though her
cold-resistance is marvelous in the screenshot where she drives
through snowy village with bare shoulders). But in a way that makes
the poster only more
On 30 April 2015 at 16:43, Steve Langasek vor...@debian.org wrote:
On Thu, Apr 30, 2015 at 09:50:12AM +, Gianfranco Costamagna wrote:
Hi to All,
[1]
http://supertuxkart.sourceforge.net/persistent/images/8/82/OfficialPoster_090.jpg
[2]
2015-04-30 7:44 GMT+02:00 Vincent Cheng vch...@debian.org:
Vincent, have you tried approaching the upstream developers and
starting a discussion with them with the goal of getting this fixed
upstream? I appreciate that you've brought your concerns about STK to
debian-women for discussion, but
Please.
Could someone share some snapshots of the contentious issue so we know
what we are talking about.
Thanks.
Vincent Cheng escrebeu:
Hi Vincent,
Debian supertuxkart maintainer here; I'm also cc-ing the Debian Games
team along with this reply. Please keep me cc-ed as I'm not
On 4/29/15, Christian PERRIER bubu...@debian.org wrote:
Quoting Steve Langasek (vor...@debian.org):
On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 06:56:24PM +0200, Vincent Lejeune wrote:
snip
Debian still packages STK 0.8 (which doesnt have Sara iirc) but it
will eventually package 0.9. IMHO the offending
Am Mittwoch, 29. April 2015, 18:16:08 schrieb Vincent Lejeune:
Hej Vincent,
I think you go right to involve d-w to find comrades. And I think you do
fine to involve the maintainer too. He/She is the person to turn to.
On d-w you'll gain maybe support for your request. I support your
engagement
Hi Vincent,
Debian supertuxkart maintainer here; I'm also cc-ing the Debian Games
team along with this reply. Please keep me cc-ed as I'm not subscribed
to debian-women (thanks to pabs for letting me know about this on
IRC).
I haven't actually taken a look at upstream's latest release yet, so
Actually you're right, I didn't really know where to submit the issue. Will
do that.
Sorry for the inconvenience.
Le 29 avr. 2015 00:45, Steve Langasek vor...@debian.org a écrit :
Hi Vincent,
On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 06:56:24PM +0200, Vincent Lejeune wrote:
snip
Debian still packages STK
Hi Vincent,
On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 06:56:24PM +0200, Vincent Lejeune wrote:
snip
Debian still packages STK 0.8 (which doesnt have Sara iirc) but it
will eventually package 0.9. IMHO the offending materials should be
stripped off from the tracks if possible (the tracks are specified as
xml
Quoting Steve Langasek (vor...@debian.org):
Hi Vincent,
On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 06:56:24PM +0200, Vincent Lejeune wrote:
snip
Debian still packages STK 0.8 (which doesnt have Sara iirc) but it
will eventually package 0.9. IMHO the offending materials should be
stripped off from the
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