Re: DebConf18 Gender Forum

[Miriam Ruiz]

Hi,

Sorry if I didn't explain it with enough clarity. I didn't mean that
there was a document titled "guidelines defined in the Diversity
Statement", but that the Diversity Statement [1] itself defined some
guidelines about how we handle diversity in gender (both in gender
identity and in gender expression): "No matter how you identify
yourself or how others perceive you: we welcome you. We welcome
contributions from everyone as long as they interact constructively
with our community.". It is pretty clear to me: The Debian project
unit of measurement for welcoming contributions is that people
interact constructively with the community, and does not discriminate
either regarding gender identity ("No matter how you identify
yourself") nor gender expression ("how others perceive you"). I
remember that, at the time, the text of the Diversity Statement was
made purposely generalistic to avoid excluding anyone by mistake.

I'm sorry I finally won't be able to attend DebConf18 in Taiwan.

Greetings,
Miry



[1] Diversity Statement:
The Debian Project welcomes and encourages participation by everyone.
No matter how you identify yourself or how others perceive you: we
welcome you. We welcome contributions from everyone as long as they
interact constructively with our community.
While much of the work for our project is technical in nature, we
value and encourage contributions from those with expertise in other
areas, and welcome them into our community.

2018-05-31 12:09 GMT+02:00 imacat :
> Dear Miry, Adriana, and everybody concerning about this panel,
>
> Sorry for the late reply.  I went to German last month, and then
> spent some time talking with a couple of friends about this panel, until
> I have some more clear ideas now.
>
> First of all, I would like to know:  Is there anyone on this list
> that will come to DebConf18 in Taiwan?  It would be very helpful to know
> in advance who we are going to talk with, and what connection we can
> build with the global Debian community.
>
> Secondly, I cannot find the "guidelines defined in the Diversity
> Statement", besides the Statement itself, as suggested by Miry.  I must
> be missing something somewhere.  Please tell me if there is any URL that
> I may refer for the guidelines.  I would like to connect this panel to
> what we have already done in the past, into where we should go in the
> future.
>
> The second speaker should come from our local women's FOSS
> community.  I have already asked one of our community leader and she
> already reserved her day for me.  But I would like to have a more clear
> picture of the subject of the panel before I add her name to the agenda.
>
> About the subject: I'm thinking about "seeing different faces", in
> addition to "welcoming different faces".  Maybe about what barrier are
> we having now to prevent us from seeing different faces, what steps
> should we take in order to see more different faces.  Please tell me
> what you think, so that I can improve more on this topic.
>
> Also this reminds me one of the forgotten event that happened in the
> process that I drew back from the global Debian community.  I would not
> mention the name since it was too long ago, and I believe he/she has
> changed.  As a transgender women I do not use my legal name in order to
> protect myself, but this seemed to violate the Debian culture, and I was
> heavily attacked by my name.  It was until several years later that
> Google and Facebook admit the need for a non-legal name for the LGBT
> community.
>
> Anyhow, please tell me if there is any suggestion on this panel (but
> not on my past story please. :p ).  Thank you.
>
> Adriana Cássia on 2018/04/17 23:48 said:
>> 2018-04-10 11:47 GMT-03:00 imacat :
>>
>>> Hi.  This is imacat from Taiwan.  Sorry that I did not know you were
>>> discussing here.  I was overwhelmed by the mails from the upcoming
>>> WikiCon 2018.
>>>
>>> Dan (Jidanni) originally asked me to host a panel about transgender.
>>>  But since I was not in the local transgender rights movement, but in
>>> the local women's movement in FOSS, we agree to change it to a panel
>>> about gender.
>>>
>>> So this will be a panel about gender, not transgender.
>>>
>>
>> Miriam sent a message and  I believe it can be helpful to use her
>> suggestions to organize the panel.
>>
>>>
>>> I hosted a panel about gender and diversity in FOSS in one of the
>>> largest FOSS conference in Asia, COSCUP 2017.  You may refer to here:
>>>
>>> (Chinese)
>>> https://coscup.org/2017/#/schedule/day2/2021035
>>> https://youtu.be/nNgPfm6rY2U
>>>
>>> For this DebConf18 panel:  I only have a few rough ideas in the
>>> current phase.  The diversity problem is mainly about women, but I would
>>> always like to put more on the table, to make more subgroups and issues
>>> "visible".  I guess it may be a good chance to bring in the transgender
>>> issue this time.
>>>
>>> Maybe you can invite people that will attend 

Re: DebConf18 Gender Forum

[imacat]

Dear Miry, Adriana, and everybody concerning about this panel,

Sorry for the late reply.  I went to German last month, and then
spent some time talking with a couple of friends about this panel, until
I have some more clear ideas now.

First of all, I would like to know:  Is there anyone on this list
that will come to DebConf18 in Taiwan?  It would be very helpful to know
in advance who we are going to talk with, and what connection we can
build with the global Debian community.

Secondly, I cannot find the "guidelines defined in the Diversity
Statement", besides the Statement itself, as suggested by Miry.  I must
be missing something somewhere.  Please tell me if there is any URL that
I may refer for the guidelines.  I would like to connect this panel to
what we have already done in the past, into where we should go in the
future.

The second speaker should come from our local women's FOSS
community.  I have already asked one of our community leader and she
already reserved her day for me.  But I would like to have a more clear
picture of the subject of the panel before I add her name to the agenda.

About the subject: I'm thinking about "seeing different faces", in
addition to "welcoming different faces".  Maybe about what barrier are
we having now to prevent us from seeing different faces, what steps
should we take in order to see more different faces.  Please tell me
what you think, so that I can improve more on this topic.

Also this reminds me one of the forgotten event that happened in the
process that I drew back from the global Debian community.  I would not
mention the name since it was too long ago, and I believe he/she has
changed.  As a transgender women I do not use my legal name in order to
protect myself, but this seemed to violate the Debian culture, and I was
heavily attacked by my name.  It was until several years later that
Google and Facebook admit the need for a non-legal name for the LGBT
community.

Anyhow, please tell me if there is any suggestion on this panel (but
not on my past story please. :p ).  Thank you.

Adriana Cássia on 2018/04/17 23:48 said:
> 2018-04-10 11:47 GMT-03:00 imacat :
> 
>> Hi.  This is imacat from Taiwan.  Sorry that I did not know you were
>> discussing here.  I was overwhelmed by the mails from the upcoming
>> WikiCon 2018.
>>
>> Dan (Jidanni) originally asked me to host a panel about transgender.
>>  But since I was not in the local transgender rights movement, but in
>> the local women's movement in FOSS, we agree to change it to a panel
>> about gender.
>>
>> So this will be a panel about gender, not transgender.
>>
> 
> Miriam sent a message and  I believe it can be helpful to use her
> suggestions to organize the panel.
> 
>>
>> I hosted a panel about gender and diversity in FOSS in one of the
>> largest FOSS conference in Asia, COSCUP 2017.  You may refer to here:
>>
>> (Chinese)
>> https://coscup.org/2017/#/schedule/day2/2021035
>> https://youtu.be/nNgPfm6rY2U
>>
>> For this DebConf18 panel:  I only have a few rough ideas in the
>> current phase.  The diversity problem is mainly about women, but I would
>> always like to put more on the table, to make more subgroups and issues
>> "visible".  I guess it may be a good chance to bring in the transgender
>> issue this time.
>>
>> Maybe you can invite people that will attend DebConf. If you want to
> prepare a list of questions like Miriam said we can help you too.
> I will not attend DebConf, but I can help if you think it's necessary. I
> have been attending some conferences  about gender,  and we can discuss
> about some ideas for the panel.
> 
> 
>> There is only one speaker confirmed.  She is one of major activists
>> in the local transgender rights movement.  She is using Ubuntu.  I plan
>> to invite other organizers of local women communities.  As I said above,
>> the main topic is still women, but there need to be more than women.
>>
> My suggestion is looking for people that work for diversity in free
> software projects, it will help you find more people.
> 
> 
>> The subject of the panel is still undecided yet.
>>
>> This is the status so far.  Any ideas are welcome.
>>
>> Miriam Ruiz on 2018/04/05 15:49 said:
>>> It might be a good starting point to figure out what we might want to
>>> talk about, in the context of this forum, regarding the extensive area
>>> of "gender", and what are the goals that we want to pursue. Gender is
>>> a very extensive concept that has broad effects in all the aspects of
>>> our lifes: social, personal, identity, expressive, behavioral, etc.
>>>
>>> I suppose that, because of the type of event and due to the context of
>>> this thread, the idea might probably be to go a bit deeper into the
>>> guidelines defined in the Diversity Statement, in particular regarding
>>> the gender axis. That is indeed something that I would think as very
>>> positive, but that it may be necessary to elaborate the idea a 

Re: DebConf18 Gender Forum

[Adriana Cássia]

2018-04-10 11:47 GMT-03:00 imacat :

> Hi.  This is imacat from Taiwan.  Sorry that I did not know you were
> discussing here.  I was overwhelmed by the mails from the upcoming
> WikiCon 2018.
>
> Dan (Jidanni) originally asked me to host a panel about transgender.
>  But since I was not in the local transgender rights movement, but in
> the local women's movement in FOSS, we agree to change it to a panel
> about gender.
>
> So this will be a panel about gender, not transgender.
>

Miriam sent a message and  I believe it can be helpful to use her
suggestions to organize the panel.

>
> I hosted a panel about gender and diversity in FOSS in one of the
> largest FOSS conference in Asia, COSCUP 2017.  You may refer to here:
>
> (Chinese)
> https://coscup.org/2017/#/schedule/day2/2021035
> https://youtu.be/nNgPfm6rY2U
>
> For this DebConf18 panel:  I only have a few rough ideas in the
> current phase.  The diversity problem is mainly about women, but I would
> always like to put more on the table, to make more subgroups and issues
> "visible".  I guess it may be a good chance to bring in the transgender
> issue this time.
>
> Maybe you can invite people that will attend DebConf. If you want to
prepare a list of questions like Miriam said we can help you too.
I will not attend DebConf, but I can help if you think it's necessary. I
have been attending some conferences  about gender,  and we can discuss
about some ideas for the panel.


> There is only one speaker confirmed.  She is one of major activists
> in the local transgender rights movement.  She is using Ubuntu.  I plan
> to invite other organizers of local women communities.  As I said above,
> the main topic is still women, but there need to be more than women.
>
My suggestion is looking for people that work for diversity in free
software projects, it will help you find more people.


> The subject of the panel is still undecided yet.
>
> This is the status so far.  Any ideas are welcome.
>
> Miriam Ruiz on 2018/04/05 15:49 said:
> > It might be a good starting point to figure out what we might want to
> > talk about, in the context of this forum, regarding the extensive area
> > of "gender", and what are the goals that we want to pursue. Gender is
> > a very extensive concept that has broad effects in all the aspects of
> > our lifes: social, personal, identity, expressive, behavioral, etc.
> >
> > I suppose that, because of the type of event and due to the context of
> > this thread, the idea might probably be to go a bit deeper into the
> > guidelines defined in the Diversity Statement, in particular regarding
> > the gender axis. That is indeed something that I would think as very
> > positive, but that it may be necessary to elaborate the idea a bit
> > more, to be able to give it a narrative thread. It might also be, on
> > the other hand, that we might want to talk about how to use the
> > current existing diversity (and in particular the gender diversity) to
> > help improve the developing processes, the teams or the results.
> >
> > The analysis of the reasons that might explain why there is still a
> > gap between men and women in the development of technology and free
> > software is undoubtedly within the scope of gender, and it is usually
> > the main focus when we talk about gender in Free Software. In addition
> > to this, there is the analysis of stereotypes and reference behaviors
> > associated with gender, and explicitly talking about that that would
> > allow some debating about new masculinities, new femininities and
> > androgyny. It is obvious that the issue of gender identity is also
> > over the table, as well as gender expression (clothing, accessories,
> > care and external appearance), etc. All this factors have a certain
> > importance within the internal and external relationships both between
> > working groups and when talking about Debian as a whole.
> >
> > Therefore, before starting to prepare a list of questions, it might be
> > a good idea to outline a small non-exhaustive list of elements that
> > might be used to create some scaffolding and, therefore, can make it
> > easier than other people contribute ideas, questions and suggestions.
> >
> > Greetings,
> > Miry
> >
> > 2018-04-05 3:02 GMT+02:00 積丹尼 Dan Jacobson :
> >> OK I eliminated all the questions.
> >>
> >> Please help me write proper questions.
> >>
> >
>
> --
> Best regards,
> imacat ^_*' 
> PGP Key http://www.imacat.idv.tw/me/pgpkey.asc
>
> <> News: http://www.wov.idv.tw/
> Tavern IMACAT's http://www.imacat.idv.tw/
> Woman in FOSS in Taiwan http://www.wofoss.org/
> OpenOffice http://www.openoffice.org/
> EducOO/OOo4Kids Taiwan http://www.educoo.tw/
> Greenfoot Taiwan http://greenfoot.westart.tw/
>
>


-- 
Adriana C. da Costa
http://www.mulheres.eti.br

Re: DebConf18 Gender Forum

[imacat]

Hi.  This is imacat from Taiwan.  Sorry that I did not know you were
discussing here.  I was overwhelmed by the mails from the upcoming
WikiCon 2018.

Dan (Jidanni) originally asked me to host a panel about transgender.
 But since I was not in the local transgender rights movement, but in
the local women's movement in FOSS, we agree to change it to a panel
about gender.

So this will be a panel about gender, not transgender.

I hosted a panel about gender and diversity in FOSS in one of the
largest FOSS conference in Asia, COSCUP 2017.  You may refer to here:

(Chinese)
https://coscup.org/2017/#/schedule/day2/2021035
https://youtu.be/nNgPfm6rY2U

For this DebConf18 panel:  I only have a few rough ideas in the
current phase.  The diversity problem is mainly about women, but I would
always like to put more on the table, to make more subgroups and issues
"visible".  I guess it may be a good chance to bring in the transgender
issue this time.

There is only one speaker confirmed.  She is one of major activists
in the local transgender rights movement.  She is using Ubuntu.  I plan
to invite other organizers of local women communities.  As I said above,
the main topic is still women, but there need to be more than women.

The subject of the panel is still undecided yet.

This is the status so far.  Any ideas are welcome.

Miriam Ruiz on 2018/04/05 15:49 said:
> It might be a good starting point to figure out what we might want to
> talk about, in the context of this forum, regarding the extensive area
> of "gender", and what are the goals that we want to pursue. Gender is
> a very extensive concept that has broad effects in all the aspects of
> our lifes: social, personal, identity, expressive, behavioral, etc.
> 
> I suppose that, because of the type of event and due to the context of
> this thread, the idea might probably be to go a bit deeper into the
> guidelines defined in the Diversity Statement, in particular regarding
> the gender axis. That is indeed something that I would think as very
> positive, but that it may be necessary to elaborate the idea a bit
> more, to be able to give it a narrative thread. It might also be, on
> the other hand, that we might want to talk about how to use the
> current existing diversity (and in particular the gender diversity) to
> help improve the developing processes, the teams or the results.
> 
> The analysis of the reasons that might explain why there is still a
> gap between men and women in the development of technology and free
> software is undoubtedly within the scope of gender, and it is usually
> the main focus when we talk about gender in Free Software. In addition
> to this, there is the analysis of stereotypes and reference behaviors
> associated with gender, and explicitly talking about that that would
> allow some debating about new masculinities, new femininities and
> androgyny. It is obvious that the issue of gender identity is also
> over the table, as well as gender expression (clothing, accessories,
> care and external appearance), etc. All this factors have a certain
> importance within the internal and external relationships both between
> working groups and when talking about Debian as a whole.
> 
> Therefore, before starting to prepare a list of questions, it might be
> a good idea to outline a small non-exhaustive list of elements that
> might be used to create some scaffolding and, therefore, can make it
> easier than other people contribute ideas, questions and suggestions.
> 
> Greetings,
> Miry
> 
> 2018-04-05 3:02 GMT+02:00 積丹尼 Dan Jacobson :
>> OK I eliminated all the questions.
>>
>> Please help me write proper questions.
>>
> 

-- 
Best regards,
imacat ^_*' 
PGP Key http://www.imacat.idv.tw/me/pgpkey.asc

<> News: http://www.wov.idv.tw/
Tavern IMACAT's http://www.imacat.idv.tw/
Woman in FOSS in Taiwan http://www.wofoss.org/
OpenOffice http://www.openoffice.org/
EducOO/OOo4Kids Taiwan http://www.educoo.tw/
Greenfoot Taiwan http://greenfoot.westart.tw/



signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: DebConf18 Gender Forum

[積丹尼 Dan Jacobson]

Yes I hope the word transgender will be mentioned in the topic list we
are composing.

The Minister will be coming,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6UKRDtNVQU
http://www.latimes.com/world/asia/la-fg-taiwan-digital-minister-20170419-story.html

And our chairperson will be:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idzfZT7ky0A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXLyDchwaBI

Re: DebConf18 Gender Forum

[Miriam Ruiz]

It might be a good starting point to figure out what we might want to
talk about, in the context of this forum, regarding the extensive area
of "gender", and what are the goals that we want to pursue. Gender is
a very extensive concept that has broad effects in all the aspects of
our lifes: social, personal, identity, expressive, behavioral, etc.

I suppose that, because of the type of event and due to the context of
this thread, the idea might probably be to go a bit deeper into the
guidelines defined in the Diversity Statement, in particular regarding
the gender axis. That is indeed something that I would think as very
positive, but that it may be necessary to elaborate the idea a bit
more, to be able to give it a narrative thread. It might also be, on
the other hand, that we might want to talk about how to use the
current existing diversity (and in particular the gender diversity) to
help improve the developing processes, the teams or the results.

The analysis of the reasons that might explain why there is still a
gap between men and women in the development of technology and free
software is undoubtedly within the scope of gender, and it is usually
the main focus when we talk about gender in Free Software. In addition
to this, there is the analysis of stereotypes and reference behaviors
associated with gender, and explicitly talking about that that would
allow some debating about new masculinities, new femininities and
androgyny. It is obvious that the issue of gender identity is also
over the table, as well as gender expression (clothing, accessories,
care and external appearance), etc. All this factors have a certain
importance within the internal and external relationships both between
working groups and when talking about Debian as a whole.

Therefore, before starting to prepare a list of questions, it might be
a good idea to outline a small non-exhaustive list of elements that
might be used to create some scaffolding and, therefore, can make it
easier than other people contribute ideas, questions and suggestions.

Greetings,
Miry

2018-04-05 3:02 GMT+02:00 積丹尼 Dan Jacobson :
> OK I eliminated all the questions.
>
> Please help me write proper questions.
>

Re: DebConf18 Gender Forum

[積丹尼 Dan Jacobson]

OK I eliminated all the questions.

Please help me write proper questions.

Re: DebConf18 Gender Forum

[Adriana Cássia]

2018-04-04 20:45 GMT-03:00 Adriana Cássia :
> Hi Eric!
>
> 2018-04-04 19:56 GMT-03:00 Éric Araujo :
>>   Hello,
>>
>>   I can’t edit the wiki so I will reply here.
>>
>>   To be blunt, I suspect people have not answered because the Questions
>> section at https://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf18/OpenDay/Gender
>> consists nearly exclusively of transphobic questions that immediately
>> make the page hostile and turn people away from that «diversity forum».
>
> Which questions are you talking about?!

There are just "..." in the question 2 and 6. I would like to understand why


> In my opinion we can help DebConf team to improve these topics and the
> best approach about that :-)
> Sometimes people have difficult to find the best approach about
> diversity issues and how to discuss that in conference.

Sorry, I wanted  to say "questions related to diversity" instead of
"diversity issues".



Best regards,
-- 
Adriana C. da Costa
http://www.mulheres.eti.br

Re: DebConf18 Gender Forum

[Adriana Cássia]

Hi Eric!

2018-04-04 19:56 GMT-03:00 Éric Araujo :
>   Hello,
>
>   I can’t edit the wiki so I will reply here.
>
>   To be blunt, I suspect people have not answered because the Questions
> section at https://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf18/OpenDay/Gender
> consists nearly exclusively of transphobic questions that immediately
> make the page hostile and turn people away from that «diversity forum».

Which questions are you talking about?!

>   You [the person who started the email thread is the editor of the wiki
> page] may be genuinely ignorant and curious about transgender people,
> womanhood and related issues, in which case using that page to inquire
> with these questions has an effect opposite to your goal; or you may be
> disingenuously trolling readers and setting up a hostile environment on
> purpose.

In my opinion we can help DebConf team to improve these topics and the
best approach about that :-)
Sometimes people have difficult to find the best approach about
diversity issues and how to discuss that in conference.
Maybe it is happening now.

>   I’m not a native speaker, the phrasing and contents of the questions
> pushes me to the latter interpretation.
>


Best regards,

-- 
Adriana C. da Costa
http://www.mulheres.eti.br

Re: DebConf18 Gender Forum

[積丹尼 Dan Jacobson]

It could be about anything you wish to present. We've got 50 minutes to
fill up and four months to find presenters and participants, etc. At
least I have already found a chairperson.

I was just watching https://debconf17.debconf.org/talks/112/ .
Looks great.

Re: DebConf18 Gender Forum

[Adriana Cássia]

Hi Dan,

2018-03-31 22:49 GMT-03:00 積丹尼 Dan Jacobson :
>
> Dear Debian Women, this year's
> https://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf18/OpenDay
> will feature a
> https://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf18/OpenDay/Gender

I read the links you sent and I didn't  understand very well what will
be the point in this activity.
Could you explain?

> forum. Please participate. Or at least there must be some
> burning gender issues you could add to our list there. Thanks.

I would like to know if the discuss will be just about gender or diversity.


Best regards,


-- 
Adriana C. da Costa
http://www.mulheres.eti.br