Re: [DUG] Web development
FYI, O'reilly have 50% JavaScript books and video this week - also includes some HTML5 http://oreilly.com/store/dd-HALFD.csp Alister Christie Computers for People Ph: 04 471 1849 Fax: 04 471 1266 http://www.salespartner.co.nz Follow us on Twitter http://twitter.com/salespartner PO Box 13085 Johnsonville Wellington ___ NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi mailing list Post: delphi@delphi.org.nz Admin: http://delphi.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi Unsubscribe: send an email to delphi-requ...@delphi.org.nz with Subject: unsubscribe
Re: [DUG] Web development - PHP or not PHP?
+1 on that one - Facebook pretty much has first pick on the best talent of PHP developers worldwide. They are even actively contributing to the PHP code base and also released a couple of their own projects under open source (like Apache Cassandra/Hive/etc, see http://developers.facebook.com/opensource/ ) that help with scaling. I don't like FB for taking liberties with sharing our personal information with everyone, but as far as useful contribution to the developer community goes one can't really complain much about them. The average FB page contains a lot of personalized data - I think the main reason for any of Rohits perceived fb slowness is that FB has to fetch up to 10-15 groups of data out of memcached/graph-database/mysql/etc and that takes a bit of time (probably a multitude of what is spend on PHP to assemble the HTML output). Regards, Stefan From: delphi-boun...@delphi.org.nz [mailto:delphi-boun...@delphi.org.nz] On Behalf Of Neven MacEwan Sent: Monday, June 06, 2011 12:22 PM To: NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi List Subject: Re: [DUG] Web development - PHP or not PHP? Rohit I don't subscribe to your view re rubbish programmers, slowness (or a certain response speed) may be their target when your revenue is advertising :-) Here is one thing they have done with PHP, http://developers.facebook.com/blog/post/358/ Mind you I dont use FB Neven Neven, are you implying that facebook uses some sort of compiled language. As far as I know it uses php. Its slowness stems from them using rubbish programmers. Every time they make a change - their choices/decisions makes things even slower. On 5/06/2011 10:37 p.m., Neven MacEwan wrote: John Debugging PHP poor? Breakpoints, hover-over variable values, step into what more do you need? I agree with the speed thing though, No need for compiled code until you get to facebook size. I always thought the concept of a PHP VCL a little strange, The statelessness of webservers and the limitations of browsers was always going to make a rich delphi like application builder a hard ask, almost destined to disappoint. Having said that I wouldn't suggest anyone starting a new project go for a fat client unless heavy graphic requirement dictated it Neven I use PHP already for many years and I like as it integrates nicely and easily with HTML, CSS and JavaScript. And as Rohit explained, no matter what language you use, for more advanced application you got to learn HTML, CSS and JavaScript any way! Speed might be an issue for some applications (?) but PHP is fast enough for most applications (so why bother). I agree that the debugging side of PHP is a bit poor, but that's all part of website development I suppose. I wanted to make a start with Delphi 4 PHP a couple of years ago, but never got to it (should I?). John C From: delphi-boun...@delphi.org.nz [mailto:delphi-boun...@delphi.org.nz] On Behalf Of Rohit Gupta Sent: Sunday, 5 June 2011 5:05 p.m. To: NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi List Subject: Re: [DUG] Web development I have been using PHP because I did not want the server to be tied to MS. Its also very popular. I started off with Delphi for PHP. But the investment in learning it was wasted. The only thing I use it for is for debugging now. There is no vcl in sight. Had t learn PHP, javascript, HTML and CSS. I think you have to , if you want it efficient. Mine has to be as I am targeting millions of users not just hundreds. It is my spare time project too. Check it out if you want 7bfaces.com. You have to signup to see it and note its work in progress. On 3/06/2011 4:57 p.m., Steve Peacocke wrote: Thanks Berend, I'm not doing this for a job but working on my on applications at home in my spare time. I've been programming for many years but not as a job since about 2005. My next project will be totally web based and I've been thinking that I'd need to make the move to RubyonRails at that point, but before I make that commitment, I wondered if anyone was using Delphi successfully on good advanced web projects - or something else. I know the C#.NET argument is a pretty good argument but for some reasons I'm resisting that move. Steve On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 4:51 PM, Berend de Boer ber...@pobox.com wrote: Steve == Steve Peacocke st...@peacocke.net writes: Steve Perhaps others have a better suggestion? What do others Steve use? Should I bite the bullet and jump to RoR or upgrade to Steve D2011 or something else? I mean, you're learning this for fun or for having a job? Not sure how many RoR jobs there are in NZ. Some years ago I heard that most Delphi programmers went to PHP. The PHP market in NZ is pretty robust, so that works. But if you want to stay in the Microsoft World, C# + ASPX or whatever the greatest latest technology is from M$ would be the best fit. -- All the best, Berend de Boer
Re: [DUG] Web development
I don't know !? - I had a quick look at your website and clicked a bit around . but didn't encountered any errors. On what page was the problem? Regards, Stefan From: delphi-boun...@delphi.org.nz [mailto:delphi-boun...@delphi.org.nz] On Behalf Of Rohit Gupta Sent: Monday, June 06, 2011 7:22 AM To: NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi List Subject: Re: [DUG] Web development Hi Stefan, I havent implemented error logs yet.. But Google Analytics is telling me strange things. Either you encountered a bug or you tried to break it ? Which :-) I am interested in knowing what happened in either case. Its not totally robust yet. But it will be before google indexes it in a few weeks time. On 5/06/2011 5:51 p.m., Stefan Mueller wrote: There are plenty of benchmarks out there showing that PHP isn't exactly a race horse: http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u32q/which-programming-languages-are-faste st.php http://www.wrensoft.com/zoom/benchmarks.html But that said, php is plenty fast enough to easily handle a couple of *thousand webpage requests per minute* on a decent web server. That's usually fast enough for most websites . and if you are some big-outfit that has to scale well beyond that limit then you could just loadbalance between multiple servers and/or take facebooks hiphop project and cross compile your PHP to much faster C-code (https://github.com/facebook/hiphop-php). I choose C# over PHP for other much more important reasons - speed isn't the issue. Stefan From: delphi-boun...@delphi.org.nz [mailto:delphi-boun...@delphi.org.nz] On Behalf Of Rohit Gupta Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2011 2:07 PM To: NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi List Subject: Re: [DUG] Web development I dont find PHP slow at all. On 5/06/2011 2:20 p.m., Steve Peacocke wrote: Paul. A very informative reply thanks. Gary also suggested PHP but I have always discounted it as slow and cumbersome. However reading through some of the blurb suggests that it may gave come a long way in recent years. I'm very familiar with HTML and somewhat familiar with small JavaScript pieces (MS-CRM mods). So these languages don't really phase me but the thought of learning another language like Ruby was robbing me of sleep. I have about a dozen languages under my belt but anyone is really only fully conversant in up to 2. I remember when I was 6 years old I spoke 3 spoken languages fluently but can only manage a little French, some small German and still learning Chinese, but Gaelic has totally disappeared from my vocabulary. Its the same with programming, without regular use, other languages tend to leave the mind (we leak memory all over the place). However it does look like PHP might be an interesting prospect. I was seriously looking at C# as well but wanted something I could use sooner than the learning curve would require. Thanks again. I'll take a good strong look over the next few weeks. Steve On 5/06/2011, at 12:32 PM, Paul A Norman mailto:paul.a.nor...@gmail.com paul.a.nor...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Steve, Approaching it from the delphi/pascal orientation first...(not meaning pascal server side--and that is possible as well) ... You'd find much in Delphi for Php that is very familiar. It is built on top of an opensource framework VCL for PHP, and you'd probably appreciate E's familiar delphi IDE approach. When E bought up the front end the guy who wrote it went across with it - so it has been well backed technically in its development. Plus you can stand Lazarus on top of the opensource part and use it for the GUI parts. http://donaldshimoda.blogspot.com/2008/09/php-toolkit-disponible.html http://wiki.lazarus.freepascal.org/Pascal_and_PHP With the PHP Toolkit you can also convert your Delphi and Lazarus form design files (.dfm/.lfm) to VCL for PHP files, as well as configure Lazarus for use as a PHP IDE. Using quality frameworks front and back end generally provides for decent testing and error reporting. Also if you want to look at php frameworks like Delphi for php, as an approach, Prado (desgined heavily around Delphi - turboPascal concepts) http://www.pradosoft.com/ is highly spoken of. Also a derivative project http://www.yiiframework.com/ The Fast, Secure and Professional PHP Framework Yii is a high-performance PHP framework best for developing Web 2.0 applications. Yii comes with rich features: MVC, DAO/ActiveRecord, I18N/L10N, caching, authentication and role-based access control, scaffolding, testing, etc. It can reduce your development time significantly. Further you can escape the confusion that has been mentioned here over html and css using a web framework / JavaScript library like jQuery (even now used and contributed to by Microsoft) jQuery is a new kind of JavaScript Library. jQuery is a fast and concise JavaScript Library that simplifies HTML document traversing, event handling, animating, and Ajax interactions for rapid web development
Re: [DUG] Web development
[Reply] Hi Guys, For most apps that we here in NZ would deal with, PHP works fast enough. Two things can affect this: 1. Use a PHP accelerator that caches the compiled PHP - so you still have the convenience of a scripting language, with the speed of a compiled one. Having used Delphi to create web apps since last century ( or was that last millenia ) I find PHP is just as fast. 2. Put emphasis also on how your application accesses the resources of the server ... minimise file accesses etc put databases on another server ... or at least a different HDD . To reiterate what has, or may have been said before, PHP is simple, easy to program, and from my experience, a practical move for a Delphi programmer. BUT, in moving to web apps from standard PC programming, there is a lot more to it, css, html, javascript, asynchronous vs synchronous design, and understanding the systems involved (web servers, caching servers, tcp/ip .) . Good luck to you all! cheers Gary At 19:15 on 6/06/2011 you wrote I don't know !? - I had a quick look at your website and clicked a bit around . but didn't encountered any errors. On what page was the problem? Regards, Stefan From: delphi-boun...@delphi.org.nz [mailto:delphi-boun...@delphi.org.nz] On Behalf Of Rohit Gupta Sent: Monday, June 06, 2011 7:22 AM To: NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi List Subject: Re: [DUG] Web development Hi Stefan, I havent implemented error logs yet.. But Google Analytics is telling me strange things. Either you encountered a bug or you tried to break it ? Which :-) I am interested in knowing what happened in either case. Its not totally robust yet. But it will be before google indexes it in a few weeks time. On 5/06/2011 5:51 p.m., Stefan Mueller wrote: There are plenty of benchmarks out there showing that PHP isn't exactly a race horse: http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u32q/which-programming-languages-are-faste st.php http://www.wrensoft.com/zoom/benchmarks.html But that said, php is plenty fast enough to easily handle a couple of *thousand webpage requests per minute* on a decent web server. That's usually fast enough for most websites . and if you are some big-outfit that has to scale well beyond that limit then you could just loadbalance between multiple servers and/or take facebooks hiphop project and cross compile your PHP to much faster C-code (https://github.com/facebook/hiphop-php). I choose C# over PHP for other much more important reasons - speed isn't the issue. Stefan From: delphi-boun...@delphi.org.nz [mailto:delphi-boun...@delphi.org.nz] On Behalf Of Rohit Gupta Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2011 2:07 PM To: NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi List Subject: Re: [DUG] Web development I dont find PHP slow at all. On 5/06/2011 2:20 p.m., Steve Peacocke wrote: Paul. A very informative reply thanks. Gary also suggested PHP but I have always discounted it as slow and cumbersome. However reading through some of the blurb suggests that it may gave come a long way in recent years. I'm very familiar with HTML and somewhat familiar with small JavaScript pieces (MS-CRM mods). So these languages don't really phase me but the thought of learning another language like Ruby was robbing me of sleep. I have about a dozen languages under my belt but anyone is really only fully conversant in up to 2. I remember when I was 6 years old I spoke 3 spoken languages fluently but can only manage a little French, some small German and still learning Chinese, but Gaelic has totally disappeared from my vocabulary. Its the same with programming, without regular use, other languages tend to leave the mind (we leak memory all over the place). However it does look like PHP might be an interesting prospect. I was seriously looking at C# as well but wanted something I could use sooner than the learning curve would require. Thanks again. I'll take a good strong look over the next few weeks. Steve On 5/06/2011, at 12:32 PM, Paul A Norman mailto:paul.a.nor...@gmail.com paul.a.nor...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Steve, Approaching it from the delphi/pascal orientation first...(not meaning pascal server side--and that is possible as well) ... You'd find much in Delphi for Php that is very familiar. It is built on top of an opensource framework VCL for PHP, and you'd probably appreciate E's familiar delphi IDE approach. When E bought up the front end the guy who wrote it went across with it - so it has been well backed technically in its development. Plus you can stand Lazarus on top of the opensource part and use it for the GUI parts. http://donaldshimoda.blogspot.com/2008/09/php-toolkit-disponible.html http://wiki.lazarus.freepascal.org/Pascal_and_PHP With the PHP Toolkit you can also convert your Delphi and Lazarus form design files (.dfm/.lfm) to VCL for PHP files, as well as configure Lazarus for use as a PHP IDE. Using quality frameworks front and back end generally provides for decent
Re: [DUG] Web development
I am surprised no-one has mentioned Python + a framework such as Django. When I switched to web dev, Python/Django and C#/asp.net mvc were the 2 finalists. I went with C# simply due to the ease of getting developers. Don't use Delphi, it's entirely the wrong tool. Sean ___ NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi mailing list Post: delphi@delphi.org.nz Admin: http://delphi.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi Unsubscribe: send an email to delphi-requ...@delphi.org.nz with Subject: unsubscribe
Re: [DUG] Web development
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_web_application_frameworks good overview - covers 1.1 Perl 1.2 PHP 1.3 Java 1.4 Python 1.5 Ruby 1.6 CFML (ColdFusion) 1.7 ASP.NET 1.8 Other So I guess these are the major players. John -Original Message- From: Sean Cross Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2011 9:35 AM To: NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi List Subject: Re: [DUG] Web development I am surprised no-one has mentioned Python + a framework such as Django. When I switched to web dev, Python/Django and C#/asp.net mvc were the 2 finalists. I went with C# simply due to the ease of getting developers. Don't use Delphi, it's entirely the wrong tool. Sean ___ NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi mailing list Post: delphi@delphi.org.nz Admin: http://delphi.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi Unsubscribe: send an email to delphi-requ...@delphi.org.nz with Subject: unsubscribe ___ NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi mailing list Post: delphi@delphi.org.nz Admin: http://delphi.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi Unsubscribe: send an email to delphi-requ...@delphi.org.nz with Subject: unsubscribe
Re: [DUG] Web development
Yes that is a good overview. I'll throw in another option: ISAPI A lot of these frameworks (on Windows) are just big ISAPI dlls. I've been doing websites using the very low level ISAPI API (not Borland's webbroker) for 15 years or so. I have to maintain PHP and other frameworks from time to time, but always come back to my own proprietary framework built on the low level API in Delphi when starting new projects. Debugging is a whole lot more productive, and apart from HTML/CSS/JavaScript which you pretty much should learn anyway when doing web apps, no other language is needed. Delphi does it for me and does it fast. The only drawback but not a major one (with the help of some admin scripts), is the deployment cycle - the running dll has to be unloaded and the new one delivered in its place. My ISAPI framework uses external text files to drive all the options, processing steps, presentation, so for most sites my generic Delphi dll doesn't even need to be tweaked. I guess the framework is a bit like scripting, but not a language as such, just a collection of ini files, HTML templates, SQL commands etc that work together to assemble the page. This way UI, business logic and the database are well separated. I have built up reusable sets of these text files as modules for common things like: ecommerce, CMS, photo gallery, File manager (incl uploads), user permissions, session management etc. This is clearly not for everyone - but I like it as it is just me and Delphi and not reliant on any other framework. My biggest time waster by far is still HTML/CSS and browser differences. I do use jquery a bit but wish I didn't have to. If only the browsers conformed to standards and behaved the same, and had a higher-level feature set. Steve -Original Message- From: John Bird [mailto:johnkb...@paradise.net.nz] Sent: Tuesday, 7 June 2011 10:00 a.m. To: NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi List Subject: Re: [DUG] Web development http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_web_application_frameworks good overview - covers 1.1 Perl 1.2 PHP 1.3 Java 1.4 Python 1.5 Ruby 1.6 CFML (ColdFusion) 1.7 ASP.NET 1.8 Other So I guess these are the major players. John -Original Message- From: Sean Cross Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2011 9:35 AM To: NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi List Subject: Re: [DUG] Web development I am surprised no-one has mentioned Python + a framework such as Django. When I switched to web dev, Python/Django and C#/asp.net mvc were the 2 finalists. I went with C# simply due to the ease of getting developers. Don't use Delphi, it's entirely the wrong tool. Sean ___ NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi mailing list Post: delphi@delphi.org.nz Admin: http://delphi.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi Unsubscribe: send an email to delphi-requ...@delphi.org.nz with Subject: unsubscribe ___ NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi mailing list Post: delphi@delphi.org.nz Admin: http://delphi.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi Unsubscribe: send an email to delphi-requ...@delphi.org.nz with Subject: unsubscribe ___ NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi mailing list Post: delphi@delphi.org.nz Admin: http://delphi.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi Unsubscribe: send an email to delphi-requ...@delphi.org.nz with Subject: unsubscribe
Re: [DUG] Web development
Also don't forget that if needed you can even write your own extensions to php in Delphi utilising Serhiy Perevoznyk's php4delphi http://users.telenet.be/ws36637/php4delphi.html and http://sourceforge.net/projects/psvlib/ for both Delphi / kylix And also a link as noted before http://wiki.lazarus.freepascal.org/Pascal_and_PHP If you're a Lazarus user, a subset of the PHP API for creating PHP extensions (libraries) with Pascal is available as part of the PHP Toolkit. http://web.fastermac.net/~MacPgmr/PhpTk/PhpTkStatus.html Paul On 5 June 2011 17:51, Stefan Mueller muell...@orcl-toolbox.com wrote: There are plenty of benchmarks out there showing that PHP isn’t exactly a race horse: http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u32q/which-programming-languages-are-fastest.php http://www.wrensoft.com/zoom/benchmarks.html But that said, php is plenty fast enough to easily handle a couple of *thousand webpage requests per minute* on a decent web server. That’s usually fast enough for most websites … and if you are some big-outfit that has to scale well beyond that limit then you could just loadbalance between multiple servers and/or take facebooks hiphop project and cross compile your PHP to much faster C-code (https://github.com/facebook/hiphop-php). I choose C# over PHP for other much more important reasons - speed isn’t the issue. Stefan From: delphi-boun...@delphi.org.nz [mailto:delphi-boun...@delphi.org.nz] On Behalf Of Rohit Gupta Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2011 2:07 PM To: NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi List Subject: Re: [DUG] Web development I dont find PHP slow at all. On 5/06/2011 2:20 p.m., Steve Peacocke wrote: Paul. A very informative reply thanks. Gary also suggested PHP but I have always discounted it as slow and cumbersome. However reading through some of the blurb suggests that it may gave come a long way in recent years. I'm very familiar with HTML and somewhat familiar with small JavaScript pieces (MS-CRM mods). So these languages don't really phase me but the thought of learning another language like Ruby was robbing me of sleep. I have about a dozen languages under my belt but anyone is really only fully conversant in up to 2. I remember when I was 6 years old I spoke 3 spoken languages fluently but can only manage a little French, some small German and still learning Chinese, but Gaelic has totally disappeared from my vocabulary. Its the same with programming, without regular use, other languages tend to leave the mind (we leak memory all over the place). However it does look like PHP might be an interesting prospect. I was seriously looking at C# as well but wanted something I could use sooner than the learning curve would require. Thanks again. I'll take a good strong look over the next few weeks. Steve On 5/06/2011, at 12:32 PM, Paul A Norman paul.a.nor...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Steve, Approaching it from the delphi/pascal orientation first...(not meaning pascal server side--and that is possible as well) ... You'd find much in Delphi for Php that is very familiar. It is built on top of an opensource framework VCL for PHP, and you'd probably appreciate E's familiar delphi IDE approach. When E bought up the front end the guy who wrote it went across with it - so it has been well backed technically in its development. Plus you can stand Lazarus on top of the opensource part and use it for the GUI parts. http://donaldshimoda.blogspot.com/2008/09/php-toolkit-disponible.html http://wiki.lazarus.freepascal.org/Pascal_and_PHP With the PHP Toolkit you can also convert your Delphi and Lazarus form design files (.dfm/.lfm) to VCL for PHP files, as well as configure Lazarus for use as a PHP IDE. Using quality frameworks front and back end generally provides for decent testing and error reporting. Also if you want to look at php frameworks like Delphi for php, as an approach, Prado (desgined heavily around Delphi - turboPascal concepts) http://www.pradosoft.com/ is highly spoken of. Also a derivative project http://www.yiiframework.com/ The Fast, Secure and Professional PHP Framework Yii is a high-performance PHP framework best for developing Web 2.0 applications. Yii comes with rich features: MVC, DAO/ActiveRecord, I18N/L10N, caching, authentication and role-based access control, scaffolding, testing, etc. It can reduce your development time significantly. Further you can escape the confusion that has been mentioned here over html and css using a web framework / JavaScript library like jQuery (even now used and contributed to by Microsoft) jQuery is a new kind of JavaScript Library. jQuery is a fast and concise JavaScript Library that simplifies HTML document traversing, event handling, animating, and Ajax interactions for rapid web development. jQuery is designed to change the way that you write JavaScript. The jQuery
Re: [DUG] Web development
My 2 cents worth for someone looking at Web Dev now Options 1. Go with the mindless horde (M$, C# .NET) 2. Go with the alternative mindless horde (ROR) 3. Go for the Money (Java) 4. Go alternative (PHP) I never used Delphi for PHP but highly recommend Nusphere PHPed as a Delphi like IDE and with 5+ you can write delphi like OO code There are numerous 'frameworks' you can use but as functionality is moving back to the client AJAX and jQuery are probably your best bet whilst HTML5 takes hold Neven There are plenty of benchmarks out there showing that PHP isn't exactly a race horse: http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u32q/which-programming-languages-are-fastest.php http://www.wrensoft.com/zoom/benchmarks.html But that said, php is plenty fast enough to easily handle a couple of **thousand webpage requests per minute** on a decent web server. That's usually fast enough for most websites ... and if you are some big-outfit that has to scale well beyond that limit then you could just loadbalance between multiple servers and/or take facebooks hiphop project and cross compile your PHP to much faster C-code (https://github.com/facebook/hiphop-php). I choose C# over PHP for other much more important reasons - speed isn't the issue. Stefan *From:*delphi-boun...@delphi.org.nz [mailto:delphi-boun...@delphi.org.nz] *On Behalf Of *Rohit Gupta *Sent:* Sunday, June 05, 2011 2:07 PM *To:* NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi List *Subject:* Re: [DUG] Web development I dont find PHP slow at all. On 5/06/2011 2:20 p.m., Steve Peacocke wrote: Paul. A very informative reply thanks. Gary also suggested PHP but I have always discounted it as slow and cumbersome. However reading through some of the blurb suggests that it may gave come a long way in recent years. I'm very familiar with HTML and somewhat familiar with small JavaScript pieces (MS-CRM mods). So these languages don't really phase me but the thought of learning another language like Ruby was robbing me of sleep. I have about a dozen languages under my belt but anyone is really only fully conversant in up to 2. I remember when I was 6 years old I spoke 3 spoken languages fluently but can only manage a little French, some small German and still learning Chinese, but Gaelic has totally disappeared from my vocabulary. Its the same with programming, without regular use, other languages tend to leave the mind (we leak memory all over the place). However it does look like PHP might be an interesting prospect. I was seriously looking at C# as well but wanted something I could use sooner than the learning curve would require. Thanks again. I'll take a good strong look over the next few weeks. Steve On 5/06/2011, at 12:32 PM, Paul A Normanpaul.a.nor...@gmail.com mailto:paul.a.nor...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Steve, Approaching it from the delphi/pascal orientation first...(not meaning pascal server side--and that is possible as well) ... You'd find much in Delphi for Php that is very familiar. It is built on top of an opensource framework VCL for PHP, and you'd probably appreciate E's familiar delphi IDE approach. When E bought up the front end the guy who wrote it went across with it - so it has been well backed technically in its development. Plus you can stand Lazarus on top of the opensource part and use it for the GUI parts. http://donaldshimoda.blogspot.com/2008/09/php-toolkit-disponible.html http://wiki.lazarus.freepascal.org/Pascal_and_PHP With the PHP Toolkit you can also convert your Delphi and Lazarus form design files (.dfm/.lfm) to VCL for PHP files, as well as configure Lazarus for use as a PHP IDE. Using quality frameworks front and back end generally provides for decent testing and error reporting. Also if you want to look at php frameworks like Delphi for php, as an approach, Prado (desgined heavily around Delphi - turboPascal concepts) http://www.pradosoft.com/ is highly spoken of. Also a derivative projecthttp://www.yiiframework.com/ The Fast, Secure and Professional PHP Framework Yii is a high-performance PHP framework best for developing Web 2.0 applications. Yii comes with rich features: MVC, DAO/ActiveRecord, I18N/L10N, caching, authentication and role-based access control, scaffolding, testing, etc. It can reduce your development time significantly. Further you can escape the confusion that has been mentioned here over html and css using a web framework / JavaScript library like jQuery (even now used and contributed to by Microsoft) jQuery is a new kind of JavaScript Library. jQuery is a fast and concise JavaScript Library that simplifies HTML document traversing, event handling, animating, and Ajax interactions
Re: [DUG] Web development - PHP or not PHP?
I use PHP already for many years and I like as it integrates nicely and easily with HTML, CSS and JavaScript. And as Rohit explained, no matter what language you use, for more advanced application you got to learn HTML, CSS and JavaScript any way! Speed might be an issue for some applications (?) but PHP is fast enough for most applications (so why bother). I agree that the debugging side of PHP is a bit poor, but that's all part of website development I suppose. I wanted to make a start with Delphi 4 PHP a couple of years ago, but never got to it (should I?). John C From: delphi-boun...@delphi.org.nz [mailto:delphi-boun...@delphi.org.nz] On Behalf Of Rohit Gupta Sent: Sunday, 5 June 2011 5:05 p.m. To: NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi List Subject: Re: [DUG] Web development I have been using PHP because I did not want the server to be tied to MS. Its also very popular. I started off with Delphi for PHP. But the investment in learning it was wasted. The only thing I use it for is for debugging now. There is no vcl in sight. Had t learn PHP, javascript, HTML and CSS. I think you have to , if you want it efficient. Mine has to be as I am targeting millions of users not just hundreds. It is my spare time project too. Check it out if you want 7bfaces.com. You have to signup to see it and note its work in progress. On 3/06/2011 4:57 p.m., Steve Peacocke wrote: Thanks Berend, I'm not doing this for a job but working on my on applications at home in my spare time. I've been programming for many years but not as a job since about 2005. My next project will be totally web based and I've been thinking that I'd need to make the move to RubyonRails at that point, but before I make that commitment, I wondered if anyone was using Delphi successfully on good advanced web projects - or something else. I know the C#.NET argument is a pretty good argument but for some reasons I'm resisting that move. Steve On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 4:51 PM, Berend de Boer ber...@pobox.com wrote: Steve == Steve Peacocke st...@peacocke.net writes: Steve Perhaps others have a better suggestion? What do others Steve use? Should I bite the bullet and jump to RoR or upgrade to Steve D2011 or something else? I mean, you're learning this for fun or for having a job? Not sure how many RoR jobs there are in NZ. Some years ago I heard that most Delphi programmers went to PHP. The PHP market in NZ is pretty robust, so that works. But if you want to stay in the Microsoft World, C# + ASPX or whatever the greatest latest technology is from M$ would be the best fit. -- All the best, Berend de Boer -- Awesome Drupal hosting: https://www.xplainhosting.com/ ___ NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi mailing list Post: delphi@delphi.org.nz Admin: http://delphi.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi Unsubscribe: send an email to delphi-requ...@delphi.org.nz with Subject: unsubscribe ___ NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi mailing list Post: delphi@delphi.org.nz Admin: http://delphi.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi Unsubscribe: send an email to delphi-requ...@delphi.org.nz with Subject: unsubscribe __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6175 (20110602) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6178 (20110603) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com -- Regards Rohit Gupta B.E. Elec., M.E., Mem IEEE, Member IET Technical Manager Computer Fanatics Ltd Tel 4892280 Fax 4892290 Web www.cfl.co.nz _ This email and any attachments contain information, which is confidential and may be subject to legal privilege and copyright. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not use, distribute or copy this email or attachments. If you have received this in error, please notify us immediately by return email and then delete this email and any attachments. __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6180 (20110604) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com ___ NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi mailing list Post: delphi@delphi.org.nz Admin: http://delphi.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi Unsubscribe: send an email to delphi-requ...@delphi.org.nz with Subject: unsubscribe
Re: [DUG] Web development - PHP or not PHP?
John Debugging PHP poor? Breakpoints, hover-over variable values, step into what more do you need? I agree with the speed thing though, No need for compiled code until you get to facebook size. I always thought the concept of a PHP VCL a little strange, The statelessness of webservers and the limitations of browsers was always going to make a rich delphi like application builder a hard ask, almost destined to disappoint. Having said that I wouldn't suggest anyone starting a new project go for a fat client unless heavy graphic requirement dictated it Neven I use PHP already for many years and I like as it integrates nicely and easily with HTML, CSS and JavaScript. And as Rohit explained, no matter what language you use, for more advanced application you got to learn HTML, CSS and JavaScript any way! Speed might be an issue for some applications (?) but PHP is fast enough for most applications (so why bother). I agree that the debugging side of PHP is a bit poor, but that's all part of website development I suppose. I wanted to make a start with Delphi 4 PHP a couple of years ago, but never got to it (should I?). John C *From:*delphi-boun...@delphi.org.nz [mailto:delphi-boun...@delphi.org.nz] *On Behalf Of *Rohit Gupta *Sent:* Sunday, 5 June 2011 5:05 p.m. *To:* NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi List *Subject:* Re: [DUG] Web development I have been using PHP because I did not want the server to be tied to MS. Its also very popular. I started off with Delphi for PHP. But the investment in learning it was wasted. The only thing I use it for is for debugging now. There is no vcl in sight. Had t learn PHP, javascript, HTML and CSS. I think you have to , if you want it efficient. Mine has to be as I am targeting millions of users not just hundreds. It is my spare time project too. Check it out if you want7bfaces.com. You have to signup to see it and note its work in progress. On 3/06/2011 4:57 p.m., Steve Peacocke wrote: Thanks Berend, I'm not doing this for a job but working on my on applications at home in my spare time. I've been programming for many years but not as a job since about 2005. My next project will be totally web based and I've been thinking that I'd need to make the move to RubyonRails at that point, but before I make that commitment, I wondered if anyone was using Delphi successfully on good advanced web projects - or something else. I know the C#.NET argument is a pretty good argument but for some reasons I'm resisting that move. Steve On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 4:51 PM, Berend de Boer ber...@pobox.com mailto:ber...@pobox.com wrote: Steve == Steve Peacocke st...@peacocke.net mailto:st...@peacocke.net writes: Steve Perhaps others have a better suggestion? What do others Steve use? Should I bite the bullet and jump to RoR or upgrade to Steve D2011 or something else? I mean, you're learning this for fun or for having a job? Not sure how many RoR jobs there are in NZ. Some years ago I heard that most Delphi programmers went to PHP. The PHP market in NZ is pretty robust, so that works. But if you want to stay in the Microsoft World, C# + ASPX or whatever the greatest latest technology is from M$ would be the best fit. -- All the best, Berend de Boer -- Awesome Drupal hosting: https://www.xplainhosting.com/ ___ NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi mailing list Post: delphi@delphi.org.nz mailto:delphi@delphi.org.nz Admin: http://delphi.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi Unsubscribe: send an email to delphi-requ...@delphi.org.nz mailto:delphi-requ...@delphi.org.nz with Subject: unsubscribe ___ NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi mailing list Post:delphi@delphi.org.nz mailto:delphi@delphi.org.nz Admin:http://delphi.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi Unsubscribe: send an email todelphi-requ...@delphi.org.nz mailto:delphi-requ...@delphi.org.nz with Subject: unsubscribe __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6175 (20110602) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6178 (20110603) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com -- Regards *Rohit Gupta* B.E. Elec., M.E., Mem IEEE, Member IET Technical Manager Computer Fanatics Ltd *Tel *4892280 *Fax *4892290 *Web *www.cfl.co.nz This email and any attachments contain information, which is confidential and may be subject to legal privilege and copyright. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not use, distribute or copy this email or attachments. If you have received
Re: [DUG] Web development - PHP or not PHP?
John, I wouldnt go for Delphi 4 php - the vcl is a pointless exercise. Debugging (when it works - it has a mind of its own) works really well - all the delphi debugging facilities. If you want to go for Delphi for PHP, I would wait for the next version. Or, my son says that eclipse should do the trick, but I havent tried it. Rohit On 5/06/2011 8:20 p.m., John C wrote: I use PHP already for many years and I like as it integrates nicely and easily with HTML, CSS and JavaScript. And as Rohit explained, no matter what language you use, for more advanced application you got to learn HTML, CSS and JavaScript any way! Speed might be an issue for some applications (?) but PHP is fast enough for most applications (so why bother). I agree that the debugging side of PHP is a bit poor, but that's all part of website development I suppose. I wanted to make a start with Delphi 4 PHP a couple of years ago, but never got to it (should I?). John C *From:*delphi-boun...@delphi.org.nz [mailto:delphi-boun...@delphi.org.nz] *On Behalf Of *Rohit Gupta *Sent:* Sunday, 5 June 2011 5:05 p.m. *To:* NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi List *Subject:* Re: [DUG] Web development I have been using PHP because I did not want the server to be tied to MS. Its also very popular. I started off with Delphi for PHP. But the investment in learning it was wasted. The only thing I use it for is for debugging now. There is no vcl in sight. Had t learn PHP, javascript, HTML and CSS. I think you have to , if you want it efficient. Mine has to be as I am targeting millions of users not just hundreds. It is my spare time project too. Check it out if you want7bfaces.com. You have to signup to see it and note its work in progress. On 3/06/2011 4:57 p.m., Steve Peacocke wrote: Thanks Berend, I'm not doing this for a job but working on my on applications at home in my spare time. I've been programming for many years but not as a job since about 2005. My next project will be totally web based and I've been thinking that I'd need to make the move to RubyonRails at that point, but before I make that commitment, I wondered if anyone was using Delphi successfully on good advanced web projects - or something else. I know the C#.NET argument is a pretty good argument but for some reasons I'm resisting that move. Steve On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 4:51 PM, Berend de Boer ber...@pobox.com mailto:ber...@pobox.com wrote: Steve == Steve Peacocke st...@peacocke.net mailto:st...@peacocke.net writes: Steve Perhaps others have a better suggestion? What do others Steve use? Should I bite the bullet and jump to RoR or upgrade to Steve D2011 or something else? I mean, you're learning this for fun or for having a job? Not sure how many RoR jobs there are in NZ. Some years ago I heard that most Delphi programmers went to PHP. The PHP market in NZ is pretty robust, so that works. But if you want to stay in the Microsoft World, C# + ASPX or whatever the greatest latest technology is from M$ would be the best fit. -- All the best, Berend de Boer -- Awesome Drupal hosting: https://www.xplainhosting.com/ ___ NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi mailing list Post: delphi@delphi.org.nz mailto:delphi@delphi.org.nz Admin: http://delphi.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi Unsubscribe: send an email to delphi-requ...@delphi.org.nz mailto:delphi-requ...@delphi.org.nz with Subject: unsubscribe ___ NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi mailing list Post:delphi@delphi.org.nz mailto:delphi@delphi.org.nz Admin:http://delphi.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi Unsubscribe: send an email todelphi-requ...@delphi.org.nz mailto:delphi-requ...@delphi.org.nz with Subject: unsubscribe __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6175 (20110602) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6178 (20110603) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com -- Regards *Rohit Gupta* B.E. Elec., M.E., Mem IEEE, Member IET Technical Manager Computer Fanatics Ltd *Tel *4892280 *Fax *4892290 *Web *www.cfl.co.nz This email and any attachments contain information, which is confidential and may be subject to legal privilege and copyright. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not use, distribute or copy this email or attachments. If you have received this in error, please notify us immediately by return email and then delete this email and any attachments. __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6180
Re: [DUG] Web development - PHP or not PHP?
Neven, are you implying that facebook uses some sort of compiled language. As far as I know it uses php. Its slowness stems from them using rubbish programmers. Every time they make a change - their choices/decisions makes things even slower. On 5/06/2011 10:37 p.m., Neven MacEwan wrote: John Debugging PHP poor? Breakpoints, hover-over variable values, step into what more do you need? I agree with the speed thing though, No need for compiled code until you get to facebook size. I always thought the concept of a PHP VCL a little strange, The statelessness of webservers and the limitations of browsers was always going to make a rich delphi like application builder a hard ask, almost destined to disappoint. Having said that I wouldn't suggest anyone starting a new project go for a fat client unless heavy graphic requirement dictated it Neven I use PHP already for many years and I like as it integrates nicely and easily with HTML, CSS and JavaScript. And as Rohit explained, no matter what language you use, for more advanced application you got to learn HTML, CSS and JavaScript any way! Speed might be an issue for some applications (?) but PHP is fast enough for most applications (so why bother). I agree that the debugging side of PHP is a bit poor, but that's all part of website development I suppose. I wanted to make a start with Delphi 4 PHP a couple of years ago, but never got to it (should I?). John C *From:*delphi-boun...@delphi.org.nz [mailto:delphi-boun...@delphi.org.nz] *On Behalf Of *Rohit Gupta *Sent:* Sunday, 5 June 2011 5:05 p.m. *To:* NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi List *Subject:* Re: [DUG] Web development I have been using PHP because I did not want the server to be tied to MS. Its also very popular. I started off with Delphi for PHP. But the investment in learning it was wasted. The only thing I use it for is for debugging now. There is no vcl in sight. Had t learn PHP, javascript, HTML and CSS. I think you have to , if you want it efficient. Mine has to be as I am targeting millions of users not just hundreds. It is my spare time project too. Check it out if you want7bfaces.com. You have to signup to see it and note its work in progress. On 3/06/2011 4:57 p.m., Steve Peacocke wrote: Thanks Berend, I'm not doing this for a job but working on my on applications at home in my spare time. I've been programming for many years but not as a job since about 2005. My next project will be totally web based and I've been thinking that I'd need to make the move to RubyonRails at that point, but before I make that commitment, I wondered if anyone was using Delphi successfully on good advanced web projects - or something else. I know the C#.NET argument is a pretty good argument but for some reasons I'm resisting that move. Steve On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 4:51 PM, Berend de Boer ber...@pobox.com mailto:ber...@pobox.com wrote: Steve == Steve Peacocke st...@peacocke.net mailto:st...@peacocke.net writes: Steve Perhaps others have a better suggestion? What do others Steve use? Should I bite the bullet and jump to RoR or upgrade to Steve D2011 or something else? I mean, you're learning this for fun or for having a job? Not sure how many RoR jobs there are in NZ. Some years ago I heard that most Delphi programmers went to PHP. The PHP market in NZ is pretty robust, so that works. But if you want to stay in the Microsoft World, C# + ASPX or whatever the greatest latest technology is from M$ would be the best fit. -- All the best, Berend de Boer -- ail and then delete this email and any attachments. __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6182 (20110605) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com ___ NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi mailing list Post: delphi@delphi.org.nz Admin: http://delphi.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi Unsubscribe: send an email to delphi-requ...@delphi.org.nz with Subject: unsubscribe
Re: [DUG] Web development
Hi Stefan, I havent implemented error logs yet.. But Google Analytics is telling me strange things. Either you encountered a bug or you tried to break it ? Which :-) I am interested in knowing what happened in either case. Its not totally robust yet. But it will be before google indexes it in a few weeks time. On 5/06/2011 5:51 p.m., Stefan Mueller wrote: There are plenty of benchmarks out there showing that PHP isn't exactly a race horse: http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u32q/which-programming-languages-are-fastest.php http://www.wrensoft.com/zoom/benchmarks.html But that said, php is plenty fast enough to easily handle a couple of **thousand webpage requests per minute** on a decent web server. That's usually fast enough for most websites ... and if you are some big-outfit that has to scale well beyond that limit then you could just loadbalance between multiple servers and/or take facebooks hiphop project and cross compile your PHP to much faster C-code (https://github.com/facebook/hiphop-php). I choose C# over PHP for other much more important reasons - speed isn't the issue. Stefan *From:*delphi-boun...@delphi.org.nz [mailto:delphi-boun...@delphi.org.nz] *On Behalf Of *Rohit Gupta *Sent:* Sunday, June 05, 2011 2:07 PM *To:* NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi List *Subject:* Re: [DUG] Web development I dont find PHP slow at all. On 5/06/2011 2:20 p.m., Steve Peacocke wrote: Paul. A very informative reply thanks. Gary also suggested PHP but I have always discounted it as slow and cumbersome. However reading through some of the blurb suggests that it may gave come a long way in recent years. I'm very familiar with HTML and somewhat familiar with small JavaScript pieces (MS-CRM mods). So these languages don't really phase me but the thought of learning another language like Ruby was robbing me of sleep. I have about a dozen languages under my belt but anyone is really only fully conversant in up to 2. I remember when I was 6 years old I spoke 3 spoken languages fluently but can only manage a little French, some small German and still learning Chinese, but Gaelic has totally disappeared from my vocabulary. Its the same with programming, without regular use, other languages tend to leave the mind (we leak memory all over the place). However it does look like PHP might be an interesting prospect. I was seriously looking at C# as well but wanted something I could use sooner than the learning curve would require. Thanks again. I'll take a good strong look over the next few weeks. Steve On 5/06/2011, at 12:32 PM, Paul A Normanpaul.a.nor...@gmail.com mailto:paul.a.nor...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Steve, Approaching it from the delphi/pascal orientation first...(not meaning pascal server side--and that is possible as well) ... You'd find much in Delphi for Php that is very familiar. It is built on top of an opensource framework VCL for PHP, and you'd probably appreciate E's familiar delphi IDE approach. When E bought up the front end the guy who wrote it went across with it - so it has been well backed technically in its development. Plus you can stand Lazarus on top of the opensource part and use it for the GUI parts. http://donaldshimoda.blogspot.com/2008/09/php-toolkit-disponible.html http://wiki.lazarus.freepascal.org/Pascal_and_PHP With the PHP Toolkit you can also convert your Delphi and Lazarus form design files (.dfm/.lfm) to VCL for PHP files, as well as configure Lazarus for use as a PHP IDE. Using quality frameworks front and back end generally provides for decent testing and error reporting. Also if you want to look at php frameworks like Delphi for php, as an approach, Prado (desgined heavily around Delphi - turboPascal concepts) http://www.pradosoft.com/ is highly spoken of. Also a derivative projecthttp://www.yiiframework.com/ The Fast, Secure and Professional PHP Framework Yii is a high-performance PHP framework best for developing Web 2.0 applications. Yii comes with rich features: MVC, DAO/ActiveRecord, I18N/L10N, caching, authentication and role-based access control, scaffolding, testing, etc. It can reduce your development time significantly. Further you can escape the confusion that has been mentioned here over html and css using a web framework / JavaScript library like jQuery (even now used and contributed to by Microsoft) jQuery is a new kind of JavaScript Library. jQuery is a fast and concise JavaScript Library that simplifies HTML document traversing, event handling, animating, and Ajax interactions for rapid web development. jQuery is designed to change the way that you write JavaScript. The jQuery framework
Re: [DUG] Web development
On 5 June 2011 19:13, Neven MacEwan ne...@mwk.co.nz wrote: My 2 cents worth for someone looking at Web Dev now Options 1. Go with the mindless horde (M$, C# .NET) 2. Go with the alternative mindless horde (ROR) 3. Go for the Money (Java) 4. Go alternative (PHP) I never used Delphi for PHP but highly recommend Nusphere PHPed as a Delphi like IDE and with 5+ you can write delphi like OO code There are numerous 'frameworks' you can use but as functionality is moving back to the client AJAX and jQuery are probably your best bet whilst HTML5 takes hold I'll make that 4c Even just jQuery and doing your own php is very effective and time saving. - quoting myself :) I'd re-emphasize that, unless there is a compelling reason to use a framework (like its a perfect match for what you are doing) - or someone feels they just have to have one to get started, jQuery and do your own back ends in php (that can include using aspects of m/any frameworks as they are useful). Like many of the available DOM/JavaScript libraries, jQuery really handles Ajax calls and display of new data, very well. For the most part jQuery is kept up-to-date - if you link to the latest version, and if you choose your plug-ins carefully and keep them up-to-date with authors' releases, they will pretty silently step you though the HTML 5 issues as they unfold - cross browser, often with graceful fall backs when possible. Paul Neven There are plenty of benchmarks out there showing that PHP isn’t exactly a race horse: http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u32q/which-programming-languages-are-fastest.php http://www.wrensoft.com/zoom/benchmarks.html But that said, php is plenty fast enough to easily handle a couple of *thousand webpage requests per minute* on a decent web server. That’s usually fast enough for most websites … and if you are some big-outfit that has to scale well beyond that limit then you could just loadbalance between multiple servers and/or take facebooks hiphop project and cross compile your PHP to much faster C-code (https://github.com/facebook/hiphop-php). I choose C# over PHP for other much more important reasons - speed isn’t the issue. Stefan From: delphi-boun...@delphi.org.nz [mailto:delphi-boun...@delphi.org.nz] On Behalf Of Rohit Gupta Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2011 2:07 PM To: NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi List Subject: Re: [DUG] Web development I dont find PHP slow at all. On 5/06/2011 2:20 p.m., Steve Peacocke wrote: Paul. A very informative reply thanks. Gary also suggested PHP but I have always discounted it as slow and cumbersome. However reading through some of the blurb suggests that it may gave come a long way in recent years. I'm very familiar with HTML and somewhat familiar with small JavaScript pieces (MS-CRM mods). So these languages don't really phase me but the thought of learning another language like Ruby was robbing me of sleep. I have about a dozen languages under my belt but anyone is really only fully conversant in up to 2. I remember when I was 6 years old I spoke 3 spoken languages fluently but can only manage a little French, some small German and still learning Chinese, but Gaelic has totally disappeared from my vocabulary. Its the same with programming, without regular use, other languages tend to leave the mind (we leak memory all over the place). However it does look like PHP might be an interesting prospect. I was seriously looking at C# as well but wanted something I could use sooner than the learning curve would require. Thanks again. I'll take a good strong look over the next few weeks. Steve On 5/06/2011, at 12:32 PM, Paul A Norman paul.a.nor...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Steve, Approaching it from the delphi/pascal orientation first...(not meaning pascal server side--and that is possible as well) ... You'd find much in Delphi for Php that is very familiar. It is built on top of an opensource framework VCL for PHP, and you'd probably appreciate E's familiar delphi IDE approach. When E bought up the front end the guy who wrote it went across with it - so it has been well backed technically in its development. Plus you can stand Lazarus on top of the opensource part and use it for the GUI parts. http://donaldshimoda.blogspot.com/2008/09/php-toolkit-disponible.html http://wiki.lazarus.freepascal.org/Pascal_and_PHP With the PHP Toolkit you can also convert your Delphi and Lazarus form design files (.dfm/.lfm) to VCL for PHP files, as well as configure Lazarus for use as a PHP IDE. Using quality frameworks front and back end generally provides for decent testing and error reporting. Also if you want to look at php frameworks like Delphi for php, as an approach, Prado (desgined heavily around Delphi - turboPascal concepts) http://www.pradosoft.com/ is highly spoken of. Also a derivative project http://www.yiiframework.com/ The Fast
Re: [DUG] Web development
Paul Yes, read a lovely phrase on the ROR site, Rails is opinionated software. It makes the assumption that there is a “best” way to do things, and it’s designed to encourage that way – and in some cases to discourage alternative This I think is a huge problem in handling the Object-Relational interface, basically you are committed to dong it their way or no way which will limit you..just a matter of when Neven On 5 June 2011 19:13, Neven MacEwanne...@mwk.co.nz wrote: My 2 cents worth for someone looking at Web Dev now Options 1. Go with the mindless horde (M$, C# .NET) 2. Go with the alternative mindless horde (ROR) 3. Go for the Money (Java) 4. Go alternative (PHP) I never used Delphi for PHP but highly recommend Nusphere PHPed as a Delphi like IDE and with 5+ you can write delphi like OO code There are numerous 'frameworks' you can use but as functionality is moving back to the client AJAX and jQuery are probably your best bet whilst HTML5 takes hold I'll make that 4c Even just jQuery and doing your own php is very effective and time saving. - quoting myself :) I'd re-emphasize that, unless there is a compelling reason to use a framework (like its a perfect match for what you are doing) - or someone feels they just have to have one to get started, jQuery and do your own back ends in php (that can include using aspects of m/any frameworks as they are useful). Like many of the available DOM/JavaScript libraries, jQuery really handles Ajax calls and display of new data, very well. For the most part jQuery is kept up-to-date - if you link to the latest version, and if you choose your plug-ins carefully and keep them up-to-date with authors' releases, they will pretty silently step you though the HTML 5 issues as they unfold - cross browser, often with graceful fall backs when possible. Paul Neven There are plenty of benchmarks out there showing that PHP isn’t exactly a race horse: http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u32q/which-programming-languages-are-fastest.php http://www.wrensoft.com/zoom/benchmarks.html But that said, php is plenty fast enough to easily handle a couple of *thousand webpage requests per minute* on a decent web server. That’s usually fast enough for most websites … and if you are some big-outfit that has to scale well beyond that limit then you could just loadbalance between multiple servers and/or take facebooks hiphop project and cross compile your PHP to much faster C-code (https://github.com/facebook/hiphop-php). I choose C# over PHP for other much more important reasons - speed isn’t the issue. Stefan From: delphi-boun...@delphi.org.nz [mailto:delphi-boun...@delphi.org.nz] On Behalf Of Rohit Gupta Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2011 2:07 PM To: NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi List Subject: Re: [DUG] Web development I dont find PHP slow at all. On 5/06/2011 2:20 p.m., Steve Peacocke wrote: Paul. A very informative reply thanks. Gary also suggested PHP but I have always discounted it as slow and cumbersome. However reading through some of the blurb suggests that it may gave come a long way in recent years. I'm very familiar with HTML and somewhat familiar with small JavaScript pieces (MS-CRM mods). So these languages don't really phase me but the thought of learning another language like Ruby was robbing me of sleep. I have about a dozen languages under my belt but anyone is really only fully conversant in up to 2. I remember when I was 6 years old I spoke 3 spoken languages fluently but can only manage a little French, some small German and still learning Chinese, but Gaelic has totally disappeared from my vocabulary. Its the same with programming, without regular use, other languages tend to leave the mind (we leak memory all over the place). However it does look like PHP might be an interesting prospect. I was seriously looking at C# as well but wanted something I could use sooner than the learning curve would require. Thanks again. I'll take a good strong look over the next few weeks. Steve On 5/06/2011, at 12:32 PM, Paul A Normanpaul.a.nor...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Steve, Approaching it from the delphi/pascal orientation first...(not meaning pascal server side--and that is possible as well) ... You'd find much in Delphi for Php that is very familiar. It is built on top of an opensource framework VCL for PHP, and you'd probably appreciate E's familiar delphi IDE approach. When E bought up the front end the guy who wrote it went across with it - so it has been well backed technically in its development. Plus you can stand Lazarus on top of the opensource part and use it for the GUI parts. http://donaldshimoda.blogspot.com/2008/09/php-toolkit-disponible.html http://wiki.lazarus.freepascal.org/Pascal_and_PHP With the PHP Toolkit you can also convert your Delphi and Lazarus form design files (.dfm/.lfm) to VCL for PHP files
Re: [DUG] Web development - PHP or not PHP?
Rohit I don't subscribe to your view re rubbish programmers, slowness (or a certain response speed) may be their target when your revenue is advertising :-) Here is one thing they have done with PHP, http://developers.facebook.com/blog/post/358/ Mind you I dont use FB Neven Neven, are you implying that facebook uses some sort of compiled language. As far as I know it uses php. Its slowness stems from them using rubbish programmers. Every time they make a change - their choices/decisions makes things even slower. On 5/06/2011 10:37 p.m., Neven MacEwan wrote: John Debugging PHP poor? Breakpoints, hover-over variable values, step into what more do you need? I agree with the speed thing though, No need for compiled code until you get to facebook size. I always thought the concept of a PHP VCL a little strange, The statelessness of webservers and the limitations of browsers was always going to make a rich delphi like application builder a hard ask, almost destined to disappoint. Having said that I wouldn't suggest anyone starting a new project go for a fat client unless heavy graphic requirement dictated it Neven I use PHP already for many years and I like as it integrates nicely and easily with HTML, CSS and JavaScript. And as Rohit explained, no matter what language you use, for more advanced application you got to learn HTML, CSS and JavaScript any way! Speed might be an issue for some applications (?) but PHP is fast enough for most applications (so why bother). I agree that the debugging side of PHP is a bit poor, but that's all part of website development I suppose. I wanted to make a start with Delphi 4 PHP a couple of years ago, but never got to it (should I?). John C *From:*delphi-boun...@delphi.org.nz [mailto:delphi-boun...@delphi.org.nz] *On Behalf Of *Rohit Gupta *Sent:* Sunday, 5 June 2011 5:05 p.m. *To:* NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi List *Subject:* Re: [DUG] Web development I have been using PHP because I did not want the server to be tied to MS. Its also very popular. I started off with Delphi for PHP. But the investment in learning it was wasted. The only thing I use it for is for debugging now. There is no vcl in sight. Had t learn PHP, javascript, HTML and CSS. I think you have to , if you want it efficient. Mine has to be as I am targeting millions of users not just hundreds. It is my spare time project too. Check it out if you want7bfaces.com. You have to signup to see it and note its work in progress. On 3/06/2011 4:57 p.m., Steve Peacocke wrote: Thanks Berend, I'm not doing this for a job but working on my on applications at home in my spare time. I've been programming for many years but not as a job since about 2005. My next project will be totally web based and I've been thinking that I'd need to make the move to RubyonRails at that point, but before I make that commitment, I wondered if anyone was using Delphi successfully on good advanced web projects - or something else. I know the C#.NET argument is a pretty good argument but for some reasons I'm resisting that move. Steve On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 4:51 PM, Berend de Boer ber...@pobox.com mailto:ber...@pobox.com wrote: Steve == Steve Peacocke st...@peacocke.net mailto:st...@peacocke.net writes: Steve Perhaps others have a better suggestion? What do others Steve use? Should I bite the bullet and jump to RoR or upgrade to Steve D2011 or something else? I mean, you're learning this for fun or for having a job? Not sure how many RoR jobs there are in NZ. Some years ago I heard that most Delphi programmers went to PHP. The PHP market in NZ is pretty robust, so that works. But if you want to stay in the Microsoft World, C# + ASPX or whatever the greatest latest technology is from M$ would be the best fit. -- All the best, Berend de Boer -- ail and then delete this email and any attachments. __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6182 (20110605) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com ___ NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi mailing list Post: delphi@delphi.org.nz Admin: http://delphi.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi Unsubscribe: send an email to delphi-requ...@delphi.org.nz with Subject: unsubscribe ___ NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi mailing list Post: delphi@delphi.org.nz Admin: http://delphi.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi Unsubscribe: send an email to delphi-requ...@delphi.org.nz with Subject: unsubscribe
Re: [DUG] Web development
Hi Steve, Approaching it from the delphi/pascal orientation first...(not meaning pascal server side--and that is possible as well) ... You'd find much in Delphi for Php that is very familiar. It is built on top of an opensource framework VCL for PHP, and you'd probably appreciate E's familiar delphi IDE approach. When E bought up the front end the guy who wrote it went across with it - so it has been well backed technically in its development. Plus you can stand Lazarus on top of the opensource part and use it for the GUI parts. http://donaldshimoda.blogspot.com/2008/09/php-toolkit-disponible.html http://wiki.lazarus.freepascal.org/Pascal_and_PHP With the PHP Toolkit you can also convert your Delphi and Lazarus form design files (.dfm/.lfm) to VCL for PHP files, as well as configure Lazarus for use as a PHP IDE. Using quality frameworks front and back end generally provides for decent testing and error reporting. Also if you want to look at php frameworks like Delphi for php, as an approach, Prado (desgined heavily around Delphi - turboPascal concepts) http://www.pradosoft.com/ is highly spoken of. Also a derivative project http://www.yiiframework.com/ The Fast, Secure and Professional PHP Framework Yii is a high-performance PHP framework best for developing Web 2.0 applications. Yii comes with rich features: MVC, DAO/ActiveRecord, I18N/L10N, caching, authentication and role-based access control, scaffolding, testing, etc. It can reduce your development time significantly. Further you can escape the confusion that has been mentioned here over html and css using a web framework / JavaScript library like jQuery (even now used and contributed to by Microsoft) jQuery is a new kind of JavaScript Library. jQuery is a fast and concise JavaScript Library that simplifies HTML document traversing, event handling, animating, and Ajax interactions for rapid web development. jQuery is designed to change the way that you write JavaScript. The jQuery framework handles nearly ALL cross browser issues, and provides somewhat of a strong object orientated approach to the whole matter. You even just add visual components to the project in code. Using jQuery type frameworks as front ends and php framework(s) as a back end for business logic is very similar in thought processes to many necessary things you may have encountered in using Delphi over the years. Real-time testing on a local LAN apache is just that! You can still dive in to the html css js and of course the php as needed, but framework programming the web is the surest path to a consistent low hassle approach. Even just jQuery and doing your own php is very effective and time saving. People are doing whole cross-platform desktop client side programs, mobile applications, Apple Linux MS etc etc like this now - see Titanium for an all in approach based on web-kit. http://www.appcelerator.com/ Once you scratch below the surface of ECMA (JavaScript) you'll find a different(!) but reasonably robust object system with protoyping etc. These sites from amongst many are really useful for orientation on JavaScript: http://bonsaiden.github.com/JavaScript-Garden/ and http://howtonode.org/object-graphs JavaScript has escaped the browser! There are even whole setups writen in JavaScript now -- see http://nodejs.org/ Node's goal is to provide an easy way to build scalable network programs. In the hello world web server example above, many client connections can be handled concurrently. Node tells the operating system (through epoll, kqueue, /dev/poll, or select) that it should be notified when a new connection is made, and then it goes to sleep. If someone new connects, then it executes the callback. Each connection is only a small heap allocation. And newer releases of php offer self serving capabilities as well. So it is an interesting time to be involved and to be (re-)entering the arena! If you just want simple drag and drop with a framework, Delphi for Php or Lazarus with phpo toolkit, will do most of that for you, plus you can extend things.. Here is an early blurb of Delphi for Php at the outset. http://www.delphi-php.net/2007/03/ Paul On 3 June 2011 16:35, Steve Peacocke st...@peacocke.net wrote: Friday question (or Can of Worms) Hey guys, I'm looking at getting into serious web development. I used to do this a number of years ago with standard Delphi 6 at that time. I have Delphi 7 I've been looking seriously at Ruby on Rails but that would mean learning a whole new language and process There has been a lot of talk of the validity of using IntraWeb with Delphi. Perhaps others have a better suggestion? What do others use? Should I bite the bullet and jump to RoR or upgrade to D2011 or something else? Steve ___ NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi mailing list Post: delphi@delphi.org.nz Admin: http://delphi.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi Unsubscribe: send an email
Re: [DUG] Web development
Paul. A very informative reply thanks. Gary also suggested PHP but I have always discounted it as slow and cumbersome. However reading through some of the blurb suggests that it may gave come a long way in recent years. I'm very familiar with HTML and somewhat familiar with small JavaScript pieces (MS-CRM mods). So these languages don't really phase me but the thought of learning another language like Ruby was robbing me of sleep. I have about a dozen languages under my belt but anyone is really only fully conversant in up to 2. I remember when I was 6 years old I spoke 3 spoken languages fluently but can only manage a little French, some small German and still learning Chinese, but Gaelic has totally disappeared from my vocabulary. Its the same with programming, without regular use, other languages tend to leave the mind (we leak memory all over the place). However it does look like PHP might be an interesting prospect. I was seriously looking at C# as well but wanted something I could use sooner than the learning curve would require. Thanks again. I'll take a good strong look over the next few weeks. Steve On 5/06/2011, at 12:32 PM, Paul A Norman paul.a.nor...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Steve, Approaching it from the delphi/pascal orientation first...(not meaning pascal server side--and that is possible as well) ... You'd find much in Delphi for Php that is very familiar. It is built on top of an opensource framework VCL for PHP, and you'd probably appreciate E's familiar delphi IDE approach. When E bought up the front end the guy who wrote it went across with it - so it has been well backed technically in its development. Plus you can stand Lazarus on top of the opensource part and use it for the GUI parts. http://donaldshimoda.blogspot.com/2008/09/php-toolkit-disponible.html http://wiki.lazarus.freepascal.org/Pascal_and_PHP With the PHP Toolkit you can also convert your Delphi and Lazarus form design files (.dfm/.lfm) to VCL for PHP files, as well as configure Lazarus for use as a PHP IDE. Using quality frameworks front and back end generally provides for decent testing and error reporting. Also if you want to look at php frameworks like Delphi for php, as an approach, Prado (desgined heavily around Delphi - turboPascal concepts) http://www.pradosoft.com/ is highly spoken of. Also a derivative project http://www.yiiframework.com/ The Fast, Secure and Professional PHP Framework Yii is a high-performance PHP framework best for developing Web 2.0 applications. Yii comes with rich features: MVC, DAO/ActiveRecord, I18N/L10N, caching, authentication and role-based access control, scaffolding, testing, etc. It can reduce your development time significantly. Further you can escape the confusion that has been mentioned here over html and css using a web framework / JavaScript library like jQuery (even now used and contributed to by Microsoft) jQuery is a new kind of JavaScript Library. jQuery is a fast and concise JavaScript Library that simplifies HTML document traversing, event handling, animating, and Ajax interactions for rapid web development. jQuery is designed to change the way that you write JavaScript. The jQuery framework handles nearly ALL cross browser issues, and provides somewhat of a strong object orientated approach to the whole matter. You even just add visual components to the project in code. Using jQuery type frameworks as front ends and php framework(s) as a back end for business logic is very similar in thought processes to many necessary things you may have encountered in using Delphi over the years. Real-time testing on a local LAN apache is just that! You can still dive in to the html css js and of course the php as needed, but framework programming the web is the surest path to a consistent low hassle approach. Even just jQuery and doing your own php is very effective and time saving. People are doing whole cross-platform desktop client side programs, mobile applications, Apple Linux MS etc etc like this now - see Titanium for an all in approach based on web-kit. http://www.appcelerator.com/ Once you scratch below the surface of ECMA (JavaScript) you'll find a different(!) but reasonably robust object system with protoyping etc. These sites from amongst many are really useful for orientation on JavaScript: http://bonsaiden.github.com/JavaScript-Garden/ and http://howtonode.org/object-graphs JavaScript has escaped the browser! There are even whole setups writen in JavaScript now -- see http://nodejs.org/ Node's goal is to provide an easy way to build scalable network programs. In the hello world web server example above, many client connections can be handled concurrently. Node tells the operating system (through epoll, kqueue, /dev/poll, or select) that it should be notified when a new connection is made, and then it goes to sleep. If someone new
Re: [DUG] Web development
Hi Steve Have a look at the Symfony framework. It takes a little while to get familiar with, but worth the trouble. It certainly helps you concentrate on PHP business logic rather than HTML,CSS and javascript. Cheers, Todd. Paul. A very informative reply thanks. Gary also suggested PHP but I have always discounted it as slow and cumbersome. However reading through some of the blurb suggests that it may gave come a long way in recent years. I'm very familiar with HTML and somewhat familiar with small JavaScript pieces (MS-CRM mods). So these languages don't really phase me but the thought of learning another language like Ruby was robbing me of sleep. I have about a dozen languages under my belt but anyone is really only fully conversant in up to 2. I remember when I was 6 years old I spoke 3 spoken languages fluently but can only manage a little French, some small German and still learning Chinese, but Gaelic has totally disappeared from my vocabulary. Its the same with programming, without regular use, other languages tend to leave the mind (we leak memory all over the place). However it does look like PHP might be an interesting prospect. I was seriously looking at C# as well but wanted something I could use sooner than the learning curve would require. Thanks again. I'll take a good strong look over the next few weeks. Steve On 5/06/2011, at 12:32 PM, Paul A Norman paul.a.nor...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Steve, Approaching it from the delphi/pascal orientation first...(not meaning pascal server side--and that is possible as well) ... You'd find much in Delphi for Php that is very familiar. It is built on top of an opensource framework VCL for PHP, and you'd probably appreciate E's familiar delphi IDE approach. When E bought up the front end the guy who wrote it went across with it - so it has been well backed technically in its development. Plus you can stand Lazarus on top of the opensource part and use it for the GUI parts. http://donaldshimoda.blogspot.com/2008/09/php-toolkit-disponible.html http://wiki.lazarus.freepascal.org/Pascal_and_PHP With the PHP Toolkit you can also convert your Delphi and Lazarus form design files (.dfm/.lfm) to VCL for PHP files, as well as configure Lazarus for use as a PHP IDE. Using quality frameworks front and back end generally provides for decent testing and error reporting. Also if you want to look at php frameworks like Delphi for php, as an approach, Prado (desgined heavily around Delphi - turboPascal concepts) http://www.pradosoft.com/ is highly spoken of. Also a derivative project http://www.yiiframework.com/ The Fast, Secure and Professional PHP Framework Yii is a high-performance PHP framework best for developing Web 2.0 applications. Yii comes with rich features: MVC, DAO/ActiveRecord, I18N/L10N, caching, authentication and role-based access control, scaffolding, testing, etc. It can reduce your development time significantly. Further you can escape the confusion that has been mentioned here over html and css using a web framework / JavaScript library like jQuery (even now used and contributed to by Microsoft) jQuery is a new kind of JavaScript Library. jQuery is a fast and concise JavaScript Library that simplifies HTML document traversing, event handling, animating, and Ajax interactions for rapid web development. jQuery is designed to change the way that you write JavaScript. The jQuery framework handles nearly ALL cross browser issues, and provides somewhat of a strong object orientated approach to the whole matter. You even just add visual components to the project in code. Using jQuery type frameworks as front ends and php framework(s) as a back end for business logic is very similar in thought processes to many necessary things you may have encountered in using Delphi over the years. Real-time testing on a local LAN apache is just that! You can still dive in to the html css js and of course the php as needed, but framework programming the web is the surest path to a consistent low hassle approach. Even just jQuery and doing your own php is very effective and time saving. People are doing whole cross-platform desktop client side programs, mobile applications, Apple Linux MS etc etc like this now - see Titanium for an all in approach based on web-kit. http://www.appcelerator.com/ Once you scratch below the surface of ECMA (JavaScript) you'll find a different(!) but reasonably robust object system with protoyping etc. These sites from amongst many are really useful for orientation on JavaScript: http://bonsaiden.github.com/JavaScript-Garden/ and http://howtonode.org/object-graphs JavaScript has escaped the browser! There are even whole setups writen in JavaScript now -- see http://nodejs.org/ Node's goal is to provide an easy way to build scalable network programs. In the hello world web server example above, many client
Re: [DUG] Web development
You could of course try Delphi Prism, if you want to be able to do asp stuff, but in a language similar to Delphi (the Prism syntax is a little different). It would save you having to learn C#. REM Objects seem to be doing lots of other cool stuff with the language (a pascal compiler for Java for instance). Alister Christie Computers for People Ph: 04 471 1849 Fax: 04 471 1266 http://www.salespartner.co.nz Follow us on Twitter http://twitter.com/salespartner PO Box 13085 Johnsonville Wellington On 5/06/2011 2:20 p.m., Steve Peacocke wrote: Paul. A very informative reply thanks. Gary also suggested PHP but I have always discounted it as slow and cumbersome. However reading through some of the blurb suggests that it may gave come a long way in recent years. I'm very familiar with HTML and somewhat familiar with small JavaScript pieces (MS-CRM mods). So these languages don't really phase me but the thought of learning another language like Ruby was robbing me of sleep. I have about a dozen languages under my belt but anyone is really only fully conversant in up to 2. I remember when I was 6 years old I spoke 3 spoken languages fluently but can only manage a little French, some small German and still learning Chinese, but Gaelic has totally disappeared from my vocabulary. Its the same with programming, without regular use, other languages tend to leave the mind (we leak memory all over the place). However it does look like PHP might be an interesting prospect. I was seriously looking at C# as well but wanted something I could use sooner than the learning curve would require. Thanks again. I'll take a good strong look over the next few weeks. Steve On 5/06/2011, at 12:32 PM, Paul A Normanpaul.a.nor...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Steve, Approaching it from the delphi/pascal orientation first...(not meaning pascal server side--and that is possible as well) ... You'd find much in Delphi for Php that is very familiar. It is built on top of an opensource framework VCL for PHP, and you'd probably appreciate E's familiar delphi IDE approach. When E bought up the front end the guy who wrote it went across with it - so it has been well backed technically in its development. Plus you can stand Lazarus on top of the opensource part and use it for the GUI parts. http://donaldshimoda.blogspot.com/2008/09/php-toolkit-disponible.html http://wiki.lazarus.freepascal.org/Pascal_and_PHP With the PHP Toolkit you can also convert your Delphi and Lazarus form design files (.dfm/.lfm) to VCL for PHP files, as well as configure Lazarus for use as a PHP IDE. Using quality frameworks front and back end generally provides for decent testing and error reporting. Also if you want to look at php frameworks like Delphi for php, as an approach, Prado (desgined heavily around Delphi - turboPascal concepts) http://www.pradosoft.com/ is highly spoken of. Also a derivative project http://www.yiiframework.com/ The Fast, Secure and Professional PHP Framework Yii is a high-performance PHP framework best for developing Web 2.0 applications. Yii comes with rich features: MVC, DAO/ActiveRecord, I18N/L10N, caching, authentication and role-based access control, scaffolding, testing, etc. It can reduce your development time significantly. Further you can escape the confusion that has been mentioned here over html and css using a web framework / JavaScript library like jQuery (even now used and contributed to by Microsoft) jQuery is a new kind of JavaScript Library. jQuery is a fast and concise JavaScript Library that simplifies HTML document traversing, event handling, animating, and Ajax interactions for rapid web development. jQuery is designed to change the way that you write JavaScript. The jQuery framework handles nearly ALL cross browser issues, and provides somewhat of a strong object orientated approach to the whole matter. You even just add visual components to the project in code. Using jQuery type frameworks as front ends and php framework(s) as a back end for business logic is very similar in thought processes to many necessary things you may have encountered in using Delphi over the years. Real-time testing on a local LAN apache is just that! You can still dive in to the html css js and of course the php as needed, but framework programming the web is the surest path to a consistent low hassle approach. Even just jQuery and doing your own php is very effective and time saving. People are doing whole cross-platform desktop client side programs, mobile applications, Apple Linux MS etc etc like this now - see Titanium for an all in approach based on web-kit. http://www.appcelerator.com/ Once you scratch below the surface of ECMA (JavaScript) you'll find a different(!) but reasonably robust object system with protoyping etc. These sites from amongst many are really useful for orientation on JavaScript:
Re: [DUG] Web development
Hope it helps, On 5 June 2011 14:20, Steve Peacocke st...@peacocke.net wrote: Paul. A very informative reply thanks. Gary also suggested PHP but I have always discounted it as slow and cumbersome. However reading through some of the blurb suggests that it may gave come a long way in recent years. Php is not as elegant as turboPascal but it is quite comfortable when coming from Delphi, and probably less of a learning curve than Java, and not unlike JavaScript, and there are some very good IDEs (e.g netbeans and of course http://www.aptana.com/) some have plug-ins for working with undelying framewroks. Php can be used utilising its available class structures or not as you wish. It has developed a lot since Richard Vowels had trouble with an octopus or was it a squid ? :) If you use php directly for database work have a look at http://www.php.net/manual/en/refs.database.abstract.php et al with things which make an abstraction layer so that among other things it is easier to swap database back-ends if you need to, and http://pear.php.net/ and choose the chm with user notes http://www.php.net/get/php_enhanced_en.chm/from/a/mirror ( http://www.php.net/docs.php ) I'm very familiar with HTML and somewhat familiar with small JavaScript pieces (MS-CRM mods). So these languages don't really phase me but the thought of learning another language like Ruby was robbing me of sleep. Then jQuery and like will seem really great. They call components - plugins, and there are some very amazing things just ready to go. I have about a dozen languages under my belt but anyone is really only fully conversant in up to 2. I remember when I was 6 years old I spoke 3 spoken languages fluently but can only manage a little French, Je parle un peu aussi, und ich habe für zwei Jahre Deutsch gelernt in der gymnasium, Ach ní féidir liom Gaeilge a labhairt, aur hum bolo thora Viji-Hindustani, me ko iti te reo maori some small German and still learning Chinese, but Gaelic has totally disappeared from my vocabulary. Chinese - very sensible. The joke used to be that we should learn to say I surrender in Russian, but now may be we could need to learn to say in Mandarin where is my work station please ? Which kind of Gaelic? Its the same with programming, without regular use, other languages tend to leave the mind (we leak memory all over the place). However it does look like PHP might be an interesting prospect. I was seriously looking at C# as well but wanted something I could use sooner than the learning curve would require. I think the thing for me originally coming of Delphi before E started to pick up the pieces of Borland dropping the ball, was realising that I had not learnt turboPascal so much, as some sort of whole conglomeration of the Delphi drag and drop, editor IDE, and of course the necessary pascal. But it was not separated out in my mind. I natively thought and did 'delphi' as a fully integrated experience - to me that was windows programming! So the thought processes were fully combined between actions in the GUI and the editor, if I had not done some previous Basic, QBasic, WordBasic, and VBA I would have been a lame duck when Delphi was suddenly beyond reach. In essence for many of us Delphi was the first real programming experience (was actually the very first fully integrated and effective IDE as far as I know) and became the template for development in our minds, and it was a whole re-learning experience to come off it - but it forced me to become more proficient at cross platform development which has had inestimable benefits. And php is an easy transition. But like Steve Todd says ... Have a look at the Symfony framework. It takes a little while to get familiar with, but worth the trouble. It certainly helps you concentrate on PHP business logic rather than HTML,CSS and javascript. Whatever you go with will have a learning curve of some sort. Paul Thanks again. I'll take a good strong look over the next few weeks. Steve On 5/06/2011, at 12:32 PM, Paul A Norman paul.a.nor...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Steve, Approaching it from the delphi/pascal orientation first...(not meaning pascal server side--and that is possible as well) ... You'd find much in Delphi for Php that is very familiar. It is built on top of an opensource framework VCL for PHP, and you'd probably appreciate E's familiar delphi IDE approach. When E bought up the front end the guy who wrote it went across with it - so it has been well backed technically in its development. Plus you can stand Lazarus on top of the opensource part and use it for the GUI parts. http://donaldshimoda.blogspot.com/2008/09/php-toolkit-disponible.html http://wiki.lazarus.freepascal.org/Pascal_and_PHP With the PHP Toolkit you can also convert your Delphi and Lazarus form design files (.dfm/.lfm) to VCL for PHP files, as well as configure Lazarus for use as a PHP IDE. Using quality frameworks front and back
Re: [DUG] Web development
I have been using PHP because I did not want the server to be tied to MS. Its also very popular. I started off with Delphi for PHP. But the investment in learning it was wasted. The only thing I use it for is for debugging now. There is no vcl in sight. Had t learn PHP, javascript, HTML and CSS. I think you have to , if you want it efficient. Mine has to be as I am targeting millions of users not just hundreds. It is my spare time project too. Check it out if you want7bfaces.com. You have to signup to see it and note its work in progress. On 3/06/2011 4:57 p.m., Steve Peacocke wrote: Thanks Berend, I'm not doing this for a job but working on my on applications at home in my spare time. I've been programming for many years but not as a job since about 2005. My next project will be totally web based and I've been thinking that I'd need to make the move to RubyonRails at that point, but before I make that commitment, I wondered if anyone was using Delphi successfully on good advanced web projects - or something else. I know the C#.NET argument is a pretty good argument but for some reasons I'm resisting that move. Steve On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 4:51 PM, Berend de Boer ber...@pobox.com mailto:ber...@pobox.com wrote: Steve == Steve Peacocke st...@peacocke.net mailto:st...@peacocke.net writes: Steve Perhaps others have a better suggestion? What do others Steve use? Should I bite the bullet and jump to RoR or upgrade to Steve D2011 or something else? I mean, you're learning this for fun or for having a job? Not sure how many RoR jobs there are in NZ. Some years ago I heard that most Delphi programmers went to PHP. The PHP market in NZ is pretty robust, so that works. But if you want to stay in the Microsoft World, C# + ASPX or whatever the greatest latest technology is from M$ would be the best fit. -- All the best, Berend de Boer -- Awesome Drupal hosting: https://www.xplainhosting.com/ ___ NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi mailing list Post: delphi@delphi.org.nz mailto:delphi@delphi.org.nz Admin: http://delphi.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi Unsubscribe: send an email to delphi-requ...@delphi.org.nz mailto:delphi-requ...@delphi.org.nz with Subject: unsubscribe ___ NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi mailing list Post: delphi@delphi.org.nz Admin: http://delphi.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi Unsubscribe: send an email to delphi-requ...@delphi.org.nz with Subject: unsubscribe __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6175 (20110602) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6178 (20110603) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com -- Regards *Rohit Gupta* B.E. Elec., M.E., Mem IEEE, Member IET Technical Manager Computer Fanatics Ltd *Tel *4892280 *Fax *4892290 *Web *www.cfl.co.nz This email and any attachments contain information, which is confidential and may be subject to legal privilege and copyright. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not use, distribute or copy this email or attachments. If you have received this in error, please notify us immediately by return email and then delete this email and any attachments. __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6180 (20110604) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com ___ NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi mailing list Post: delphi@delphi.org.nz Admin: http://delphi.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi Unsubscribe: send an email to delphi-requ...@delphi.org.nz with Subject: unsubscribe
Re: [DUG] Web development
I dont find PHP slow at all. On 5/06/2011 2:20 p.m., Steve Peacocke wrote: Paul. A very informative reply thanks. Gary also suggested PHP but I have always discounted it as slow and cumbersome. However reading through some of the blurb suggests that it may gave come a long way in recent years. I'm very familiar with HTML and somewhat familiar with small JavaScript pieces (MS-CRM mods). So these languages don't really phase me but the thought of learning another language like Ruby was robbing me of sleep. I have about a dozen languages under my belt but anyone is really only fully conversant in up to 2. I remember when I was 6 years old I spoke 3 spoken languages fluently but can only manage a little French, some small German and still learning Chinese, but Gaelic has totally disappeared from my vocabulary. Its the same with programming, without regular use, other languages tend to leave the mind (we leak memory all over the place). However it does look like PHP might be an interesting prospect. I was seriously looking at C# as well but wanted something I could use sooner than the learning curve would require. Thanks again. I'll take a good strong look over the next few weeks. Steve On 5/06/2011, at 12:32 PM, Paul A Normanpaul.a.nor...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Steve, Approaching it from the delphi/pascal orientation first...(not meaning pascal server side--and that is possible as well) ... You'd find much in Delphi for Php that is very familiar. It is built on top of an opensource framework VCL for PHP, and you'd probably appreciate E's familiar delphi IDE approach. When E bought up the front end the guy who wrote it went across with it - so it has been well backed technically in its development. Plus you can stand Lazarus on top of the opensource part and use it for the GUI parts. http://donaldshimoda.blogspot.com/2008/09/php-toolkit-disponible.html http://wiki.lazarus.freepascal.org/Pascal_and_PHP With the PHP Toolkit you can also convert your Delphi and Lazarus form design files (.dfm/.lfm) to VCL for PHP files, as well as configure Lazarus for use as a PHP IDE. Using quality frameworks front and back end generally provides for decent testing and error reporting. Also if you want to look at php frameworks like Delphi for php, as an approach, Prado (desgined heavily around Delphi - turboPascal concepts) http://www.pradosoft.com/ is highly spoken of. Also a derivative project http://www.yiiframework.com/ The Fast, Secure and Professional PHP Framework Yii is a high-performance PHP framework best for developing Web 2.0 applications. Yii comes with rich features: MVC, DAO/ActiveRecord, I18N/L10N, caching, authentication and role-based access control, scaffolding, testing, etc. It can reduce your development time significantly. Further you can escape the confusion that has been mentioned here over html and css using a web framework / JavaScript library like jQuery (even now used and contributed to by Microsoft) jQuery is a new kind of JavaScript Library. jQuery is a fast and concise JavaScript Library that simplifies HTML document traversing, event handling, animating, and Ajax interactions for rapid web development. jQuery is designed to change the way that you write JavaScript. The jQuery framework handles nearly ALL cross browser issues, and provides somewhat of a strong object orientated approach to the whole matter. You even just add visual components to the project in code. Using jQuery type frameworks as front ends and php framework(s) as a back end for business logic is very similar in thought processes to many necessary things you may have encountered in using Delphi over the years. Real-time testing on a local LAN apache is just that! You can still dive in to the html css js and of course the php as needed, but framework programming the web is the surest path to a consistent low hassle approach. Even just jQuery and doing your own php is very effective and time saving. People are doing whole cross-platform desktop client side programs, mobile applications, Apple Linux MS etc etc like this now - see Titanium for an all in approach based on web-kit. http://www.appcelerator.com/ Once you scratch below the surface of ECMA (JavaScript) you'll find a different(!) but reasonably robust object system with protoyping etc. These sites from amongst many are really useful for orientation on JavaScript: http://bonsaiden.github.com/JavaScript-Garden/ and http://howtonode.org/object-graphs JavaScript has escaped the browser! There are even whole setups writen in JavaScript now -- see http://nodejs.org/ Node's goal is to provide an easy way to build scalable network programs. In the hello world web server example above, many client connections can be handled concurrently. Node tells the operating system (through epoll, kqueue, /dev/poll, or select) that it should be notified when a new connection is made, and then it goes to sleep. If someone new connects, then it
Re: [DUG] Web development
There are plenty of benchmarks out there showing that PHP isn't exactly a race horse: http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u32q/which-programming-languages-are-faste st.php http://www.wrensoft.com/zoom/benchmarks.html But that said, php is plenty fast enough to easily handle a couple of *thousand webpage requests per minute* on a decent web server. That's usually fast enough for most websites . and if you are some big-outfit that has to scale well beyond that limit then you could just loadbalance between multiple servers and/or take facebooks hiphop project and cross compile your PHP to much faster C-code (https://github.com/facebook/hiphop-php). I choose C# over PHP for other much more important reasons - speed isn't the issue. Stefan From: delphi-boun...@delphi.org.nz [mailto:delphi-boun...@delphi.org.nz] On Behalf Of Rohit Gupta Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2011 2:07 PM To: NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi List Subject: Re: [DUG] Web development I dont find PHP slow at all. On 5/06/2011 2:20 p.m., Steve Peacocke wrote: Paul. A very informative reply thanks. Gary also suggested PHP but I have always discounted it as slow and cumbersome. However reading through some of the blurb suggests that it may gave come a long way in recent years. I'm very familiar with HTML and somewhat familiar with small JavaScript pieces (MS-CRM mods). So these languages don't really phase me but the thought of learning another language like Ruby was robbing me of sleep. I have about a dozen languages under my belt but anyone is really only fully conversant in up to 2. I remember when I was 6 years old I spoke 3 spoken languages fluently but can only manage a little French, some small German and still learning Chinese, but Gaelic has totally disappeared from my vocabulary. Its the same with programming, without regular use, other languages tend to leave the mind (we leak memory all over the place). However it does look like PHP might be an interesting prospect. I was seriously looking at C# as well but wanted something I could use sooner than the learning curve would require. Thanks again. I'll take a good strong look over the next few weeks. Steve On 5/06/2011, at 12:32 PM, Paul A Norman mailto:paul.a.nor...@gmail.com paul.a.nor...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Steve, Approaching it from the delphi/pascal orientation first...(not meaning pascal server side--and that is possible as well) ... You'd find much in Delphi for Php that is very familiar. It is built on top of an opensource framework VCL for PHP, and you'd probably appreciate E's familiar delphi IDE approach. When E bought up the front end the guy who wrote it went across with it - so it has been well backed technically in its development. Plus you can stand Lazarus on top of the opensource part and use it for the GUI parts. http://donaldshimoda.blogspot.com/2008/09/php-toolkit-disponible.html http://wiki.lazarus.freepascal.org/Pascal_and_PHP With the PHP Toolkit you can also convert your Delphi and Lazarus form design files (.dfm/.lfm) to VCL for PHP files, as well as configure Lazarus for use as a PHP IDE. Using quality frameworks front and back end generally provides for decent testing and error reporting. Also if you want to look at php frameworks like Delphi for php, as an approach, Prado (desgined heavily around Delphi - turboPascal concepts) http://www.pradosoft.com/ is highly spoken of. Also a derivative project http://www.yiiframework.com/ The Fast, Secure and Professional PHP Framework Yii is a high-performance PHP framework best for developing Web 2.0 applications. Yii comes with rich features: MVC, DAO/ActiveRecord, I18N/L10N, caching, authentication and role-based access control, scaffolding, testing, etc. It can reduce your development time significantly. Further you can escape the confusion that has been mentioned here over html and css using a web framework / JavaScript library like jQuery (even now used and contributed to by Microsoft) jQuery is a new kind of JavaScript Library. jQuery is a fast and concise JavaScript Library that simplifies HTML document traversing, event handling, animating, and Ajax interactions for rapid web development. jQuery is designed to change the way that you write JavaScript. The jQuery framework handles nearly ALL cross browser issues, and provides somewhat of a strong object orientated approach to the whole matter. You even just add visual components to the project in code. Using jQuery type frameworks as front ends and php framework(s) as a back end for business logic is very similar in thought processes to many necessary things you may have encountered in using Delphi over the years. Real-time testing on a local LAN apache is just that! You can still dive in to the html css js and of course the php as needed, but framework programming the web is the surest path to a consistent low hassle approach. Even just jQuery and doing your own php is very
Re: [DUG] Web development
Yep. Got the HTML JavaScript. Need more CSS knowledge. RoR still a serious consideration but what about even 3rd party web VCL packs like TMS. Movie about to start. X-Men, guess there's geek still in me somewhere. Steve On 3/06/2011, at 5:48 PM, Alister Christie alis...@salespartner.co.nz wrote: I think RoR is a fairly good choice and I've played with it a bit and am impressed - bit of a learning curve from Delphi. Whatever technology you choose, you'll likely need a good understanding of HTML, CSS and JavaScript. I don't think Intraweb is suitable for doing any serious web stuff - although I've used it to build a few little applications that have worked quite well, great to leverage existing code and knowledge. Alister Christie Computers for People Ph: 04 471 1849 Fax: 04 471 1266 http://www.salespartner.co.nz Follow us on Twitter http://twitter.com/salespartner PO Box 13085 Johnsonville Wellington On 3/06/2011 4:35 p.m., Steve Peacocke wrote: Friday question (or Can of Worms) Hey guys, I'm looking at getting into serious web development. I used to do this a number of years ago with standard Delphi 6 at that time. I have Delphi 7 I've been looking seriously at Ruby on Rails but that would mean learning a whole new language and process There has been a lot of talk of the validity of using IntraWeb with Delphi. Perhaps others have a better suggestion? What do others use? Should I bite the bullet and jump to RoR or upgrade to D2011 or something else? Steve ___ NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi mailing list Post: delphi@delphi.org.nz Admin: http://delphi.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi Unsubscribe: send an email to delphi-requ...@delphi.org.nz with Subject: unsubscribe ___ NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi mailing list Post: delphi@delphi.org.nz Admin: http://delphi.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi Unsubscribe: send an email to delphi-requ...@delphi.org.nz with Subject: unsubscribe ___ NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi mailing list Post: delphi@delphi.org.nz Admin: http://delphi.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi Unsubscribe: send an email to delphi-requ...@delphi.org.nz with Subject: unsubscribe
Re: [DUG] Web development
Jolyon == Jolyon Smith jsm...@deltics.co.nz writes: Jolyon but in the end got fed up with wrestling with HTML and CSS Jolyon - working with those technologies is like stepping back in Jolyon time in terms to tools and debugging etc, Really I would say that the available tools and capabilities are light years beyond what's offered. And we're not even talking about the ease with which you create very nice interfaces, which would be impossible to create any other way. -- All the best, Berend de Boer -- Awesome Drupal hosting: https://www.xplainhosting.com/ ___ NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi mailing list Post: delphi@delphi.org.nz Admin: http://delphi.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi Unsubscribe: send an email to delphi-requ...@delphi.org.nz with Subject: unsubscribe
Re: [DUG] Web development
Can anybody tell how good 'Delphi For PHP' is? John -Original Message- From: delphi-boun...@delphi.org.nz [mailto:delphi- boun...@delphi.org.nz] On Behalf Of Steve Peacocke Sent: Friday, 3 June 2011 4:35 p.m. To: List NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi Subject: [DUG] Web development Friday question (or Can of Worms) Hey guys, I'm looking at getting into serious web development. I used to do this a number of years ago with standard Delphi 6 at that time. I have Delphi 7 I've been looking seriously at Ruby on Rails but that would mean learning a whole new language and process There has been a lot of talk of the validity of using IntraWeb with Delphi. Perhaps others have a better suggestion? What do others use? Should I bite the bullet and jump to RoR or upgrade to D2011 or something else? Steve ___ NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi mailing list Post: delphi@delphi.org.nz Admin: http://delphi.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi Unsubscribe: send an email to delphi-requ...@delphi.org.nz with Subject: unsubscribe ___ NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi mailing list Post: delphi@delphi.org.nz Admin: http://delphi.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi Unsubscribe: send an email to delphi-requ...@delphi.org.nz with Subject: unsubscribe
Re: [DUG] Web development
Thanks Berend, I'm not doing this for a job but working on my on applications at home in my spare time. I've been programming for many years but not as a job since about 2005. My next project will be totally web based and I've been thinking that I'd need to make the move to RubyonRails at that point, but before I make that commitment, I wondered if anyone was using Delphi successfully on good advanced web projects - or something else. I know the C#.NET argument is a pretty good argument but for some reasons I'm resisting that move. Steve On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 4:51 PM, Berend de Boer ber...@pobox.com wrote: Steve == Steve Peacocke st...@peacocke.net writes: Steve Perhaps others have a better suggestion? What do others Steve use? Should I bite the bullet and jump to RoR or upgrade to Steve D2011 or something else? I mean, you're learning this for fun or for having a job? Not sure how many RoR jobs there are in NZ. Some years ago I heard that most Delphi programmers went to PHP. The PHP market in NZ is pretty robust, so that works. But if you want to stay in the Microsoft World, C# + ASPX or whatever the greatest latest technology is from M$ would be the best fit. -- All the best, Berend de Boer -- Awesome Drupal hosting: https://www.xplainhosting.com/ ___ NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi mailing list Post: delphi@delphi.org.nz Admin: http://delphi.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi Unsubscribe: send an email to delphi-requ...@delphi.org.nz with Subject: unsubscribe ___ NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi mailing list Post: delphi@delphi.org.nz Admin: http://delphi.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi Unsubscribe: send an email to delphi-requ...@delphi.org.nz with Subject: unsubscribe
Re: [DUG] Web development
I have been thinking about this myself. I started trying to get to grips with PHP, but in the end got fed up with wrestling with HTML and CSS - working with those technologies is like stepping back in time in terms to tools and debugging etc, and I found it frustrating and tiresome. So at that point I decided that the next major web project I would do I would tackle very differently: 1. Build the functionality as a web service using Delphi - something I can then host in Azure or Amazon EC2 if I wish 2. Build a Delphi desktop app to exercise and test my service (and perhaps provide a desktop app GUI for the users) This allows me to leverage my expertise in Delphi and focus very much on the functionality of the web site without. Then, once enough of the web site functionality is in place in the web service... 3. Hire a web designer co. to build the web *GUI* 4. Ditto for an Android/iPhone app if appropriate -Original Message- From: delphi-boun...@delphi.org.nz [mailto:delphi-boun...@delphi.org.nz] On Behalf Of Steve Peacocke Sent: Friday, 3 June 2011 16:35 To: List NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi Subject: [DUG] Web development Friday question (or Can of Worms) Hey guys, I'm looking at getting into serious web development. I used to do this a number of years ago with standard Delphi 6 at that time. I have Delphi 7 I've been looking seriously at Ruby on Rails but that would mean learning a whole new language and process There has been a lot of talk of the validity of using IntraWeb with Delphi. Perhaps others have a better suggestion? What do others use? Should I bite the bullet and jump to RoR or upgrade to D2011 or something else? Steve ___ NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi mailing list Post: delphi@delphi.org.nz Admin: http://delphi.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi Unsubscribe: send an email to delphi-requ...@delphi.org.nz with Subject: unsubscribe ___ NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi mailing list Post: delphi@delphi.org.nz Admin: http://delphi.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi Unsubscribe: send an email to delphi-requ...@delphi.org.nz with Subject: unsubscribe
Re: [DUG] Web development
On a similar subject (off-topic), I write my own scripts for my own website using standard ASP basically with Notepad or the old MS-Frontpage. I don't use databases, just text files for data storage. I chose ASP some time ago as it is similar to the BASIC language which I can understand. I'm not familiar with C or Perl or anything else. Does anyone know of any, preferably free, ASP development system which works similar to the Delphi environment, where it shows the properties of each class as you type etc. Currently I'm continuously searching Google if I need to find the available properties of a class or parameters for a function. Cheers, Ross. -Original Message- From: delphi-boun...@delphi.org.nz [mailto:delphi-boun...@delphi.org.nz] On Behalf Of Berend de Boer Sent: Friday, 3 June 2011 4:52 PM To: NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi List Subject: Re: [DUG] Web development Steve == Steve Peacocke st...@peacocke.net writes: Steve Perhaps others have a better suggestion? What do others Steve use? Should I bite the bullet and jump to RoR or upgrade to Steve D2011 or something else? I mean, you're learning this for fun or for having a job? Not sure how many RoR jobs there are in NZ. Some years ago I heard that most Delphi programmers went to PHP. The PHP market in NZ is pretty robust, so that works. But if you want to stay in the Microsoft World, C# + ASPX or whatever the greatest latest technology is from M$ would be the best fit. -- All the best, Berend de Boer -- Awesome Drupal hosting: https://www.xplainhosting.com/ ___ NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi mailing list Post: delphi@delphi.org.nz Admin: http://delphi.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi Unsubscribe: send an email to delphi-requ...@delphi.org.nz with Subject: unsubscribe ___ NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi mailing list Post: delphi@delphi.org.nz Admin: http://delphi.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi Unsubscribe: send an email to delphi-requ...@delphi.org.nz with Subject: unsubscribe
Re: [DUG] Web development
I think RoR is a fairly good choice and I've played with it a bit and am impressed - bit of a learning curve from Delphi. Whatever technology you choose, you'll likely need a good understanding of HTML, CSS and JavaScript. I don't think Intraweb is suitable for doing any serious web stuff - although I've used it to build a few little applications that have worked quite well, great to leverage existing code and knowledge. Alister Christie Computers for People Ph: 04 471 1849 Fax: 04 471 1266 http://www.salespartner.co.nz Follow us on Twitter http://twitter.com/salespartner PO Box 13085 Johnsonville Wellington On 3/06/2011 4:35 p.m., Steve Peacocke wrote: Friday question (or Can of Worms) Hey guys, I'm looking at getting into serious web development. I used to do this a number of years ago with standard Delphi 6 at that time. I have Delphi 7 I've been looking seriously at Ruby on Rails but that would mean learning a whole new language and process There has been a lot of talk of the validity of using IntraWeb with Delphi. Perhaps others have a better suggestion? What do others use? Should I bite the bullet and jump to RoR or upgrade to D2011 or something else? Steve ___ NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi mailing list Post: delphi@delphi.org.nz Admin: http://delphi.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi Unsubscribe: send an email to delphi-requ...@delphi.org.nz with Subject: unsubscribe ___ NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi mailing list Post: delphi@delphi.org.nz Admin: http://delphi.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi Unsubscribe: send an email to delphi-requ...@delphi.org.nz with Subject: unsubscribe
Re: [DUG] Web development
Yes I've discounted PHP too. Basically I'm hoping I can do everything in Delphi. However HTML, CSS JavaScript are required and thankfully I'm ok with all except CSS so only a bit of learning. I also want to host on Azure or Amazon or whatever so we're heading in the same direction there. I'm pretty impressed with the Ruby on Rails idea so may end up there eventually but at the moment that's just another learning hurdle. Steve On 3/06/2011, at 4:54 PM, Jolyon Smith jsm...@deltics.co.nz wrote: I have been thinking about this myself. I started trying to get to grips with PHP, but in the end got fed up with wrestling with HTML and CSS - working with those technologies is like stepping back in time in terms to tools and debugging etc, and I found it frustrating and tiresome. So at that point I decided that the next major web project I would do I would tackle very differently: 1. Build the functionality as a web service using Delphi - something I can then host in Azure or Amazon EC2 if I wish 2. Build a Delphi desktop app to exercise and test my service (and perhaps provide a desktop app GUI for the users) This allows me to leverage my expertise in Delphi and focus very much on the functionality of the web site without. Then, once enough of the web site functionality is in place in the web service... 3. Hire a web designer co. to build the web *GUI* 4. Ditto for an Android/iPhone app if appropriate -Original Message- From: delphi-boun...@delphi.org.nz [mailto:delphi-boun...@delphi.org.nz] On Behalf Of Steve Peacocke Sent: Friday, 3 June 2011 16:35 To: List NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi Subject: [DUG] Web development Friday question (or Can of Worms) Hey guys, I'm looking at getting into serious web development. I used to do this a number of years ago with standard Delphi 6 at that time. I have Delphi 7 I've been looking seriously at Ruby on Rails but that would mean learning a whole new language and process There has been a lot of talk of the validity of using IntraWeb with Delphi. Perhaps others have a better suggestion? What do others use? Should I bite the bullet and jump to RoR or upgrade to D2011 or something else? Steve ___ NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi mailing list Post: delphi@delphi.org.nz Admin: http://delphi.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi Unsubscribe: send an email to delphi-requ...@delphi.org.nz with Subject: unsubscribe ___ NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi mailing list Post: delphi@delphi.org.nz Admin: http://delphi.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi Unsubscribe: send an email to delphi-requ...@delphi.org.nz with Subject: unsubscribe ___ NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi mailing list Post: delphi@delphi.org.nz Admin: http://delphi.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi Unsubscribe: send an email to delphi-requ...@delphi.org.nz with Subject: unsubscribe
Re: [DUG]: web development.
Is JSP actually deployed yet? Resources on Sun's site seem to be limited to a specification paper Sun has a reference implementation on the same site :) Resources? www.esperanto.org.nz JSP FAQ. JSP book (well, the startings of) Commercial implementations / development products? Dev products: Anything supporting java for beans (JBuilder 3 is good :) ) HomeSite 4.01 NotePad Delphi :) (well, it has an editor!) Commertical impl: See the FAQ, but: Orion (commercial/OpenSource) JRun (0.92 spec) IBM WebSphere Sun JWS Netscape's web server Apache + JServ + (GNUJSP|others) etc. Nic. --- New Zealand Delphi Users group - Delphi List - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website: http://www.delphi.org.nz
RE: [DUG]: web development.
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Nic Wise Sent: Thursday, 1 April 1999 11:49 To: Multiple recipients of list delphi Subject: Re: [DUG]: web development. Very true, tho there are other options, which usually limit the learning curve: As usual, this is DEFINATLY IN _MY_ OPINION. snip JSP - Java-based, so it needs a server that will accept servlets, IIS can with JRun, Apache also will. Runs cross platform, which is good if you ISP has Linux/SunOS/etc (ie, not NT). You NEED to know Java fairly well*. Is JSP actually deployed yet? Resources on Sun's site seem to be limited to a specification paper Resources? Commercial implementations / development products? Patrick Dunford, Christchurch, NZ http://patrick.dunford.com/ --- New Zealand Delphi Users group - Delphi List - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website: http://www.delphi.org.nz
Re: [DUG]: web development.
Thanks to everyone who replied regarding web development. I am thinking I am going to takle my original problem of software upgrades to our schools using FTP in a similar way to the Charles Calvert example in D4 Unleashed. It looks quite good. However for other web front and back ends I am looking at cold fusion 4 at the moment. Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Cheers, Matt. - Original Message - From: Siegfried Kirchmair [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of list delphi [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 02, 1999 12:24 AM Subject: Re: [DUG]: web development. Hi Matt, I can only recomment webhub as I think its absolutely reliable and performs well. It does take a bit to get used to it but that pays back. I started with ISAPI's and every minute spend on it was a waste. cheers sigi CACTUS Ltd., Nelson Phone:03-5479383 Fax:03-5479329 E-Mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.TheShop.co.nz http://www.CharterGuide.co.nz -- - New Zealand Delphi Users group - Delphi List - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website: http://www.delphi.org.nz --- New Zealand Delphi Users group - Delphi List - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website: http://www.delphi.org.nz
Re: [DUG]: web development.
Hi Matt, I can only recomment webhub as I think its absolutely reliable and performs well. It does take a bit to get used to it but that pays back. I started with ISAPI's and every minute spend on it was a waste. cheers sigi CACTUS Ltd., Nelson Phone:03-5479383 Fax:03-5479329 E-Mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.TheShop.co.nz http://www.CharterGuide.co.nz --- New Zealand Delphi Users group - Delphi List - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website: http://www.delphi.org.nz
Re: [DUG]: web development.
Matthew wrote: My question is how to go about programming dlls that run on the web server and return web page data. I guess this is pretty fundamental but I'm new at this. Any source code snippets or advice on any of this would be appreciated. The best advice I can give you is to *not* take the steepest possible learning curve: which usually involves starting with simple/cheap/free tools and finding out all the things that can go wrong on the Web by trial and error. There are jobs for which such an approach is just fine, but once you want to support serious applications, and continuously- available Web sites, you want to build with tools which have most of the Web "lessons" inherent in them. And for that, in the Delphi world, I naturally recommend WebHub (http://www.href.com) which we've been using since early 1996. For a quick overview of why *we* like and use it, download my white paper from http://www.href.com/pub/docsnhelp/whwhitep.zip and have a quiet read. (To see the shiniest, newest WebHub site in the entire world, have a peek at http://FoyleBooks.com -- developed here, hosted on our US server, performing live ecommerce in the States and automatically shipping British books out of a UK warehouse. Public as of about 20 minutes ago g). Hope this helps. cheers, peter Peter Hyde, SPIS Ltd, Christchurch, New Zealand * TurboNote: http://TurboPress.com/tbnote.htm -- small, FREE and very handy * Print-to-Web automation http://TurboPress.com * Web design, automation and hosting specialists Find all the above and MORE at http://www.spis.co.nz --- New Zealand Delphi Users group - Delphi List - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website: http://www.delphi.org.nz
Re: [DUG]: web development.
Very true, tho there are other options, which usually limit the learning curve: As usual, this is DEFINATLY IN _MY_ OPINION. ASP - OK, it kinda limits you to NT, but so does anything using Delphi. Very easy to use (IMO), quick etc. Can be used on Unix if you get chilliasp. JSP - Java-based, so it needs a server that will accept servlets, IIS can with JRun, Apache also will. Runs cross platform, which is good if you ISP has Linux/SunOS/etc (ie, not NT). You NEED to know Java fairly well*. ISAPI/NSAPI/etc - Waste of time - it will take you too long to develope anything usefull, you might as well spend the time learning ASP or something else. Only works well with their native server (NS, IIS etc) DIY server: write your own HTTP server. See ISAPI/NSAPI :) WebHub: Peter likes it, I dont. Its almost a personal thing :) It has its good points (multi-server (IIS, WebSite, Netscape etc), load balancing etc) and its bad points (Architecture learning curve I found especially steep, only runs on NT etc) * I'm using this for my current project, and I'm finding it quicker, easier and WAY more powerfull than ASP, or any other method I've used so far. I think that covers most of it - I'd be inclined to go with ASP, but there again, I've used it a LOT Nic. Peter Hyde wrote: Matthew wrote: --- New Zealand Delphi Users group - Delphi List - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website: http://www.delphi.org.nz
