[libreoffice-design] Re: Work Items Management

[Nik]

Hi Christoph, Klaus-jürgen, All,

Thank you both for your input, you thought of a number of things I 
didn't. I'm going to try condense your questions and provide short(ish) 
responses so that this thread does not become large and difficult-to-follow;


*Klaus-jürgen mentioned;*
1. Who will determine the priorities?  I think mostly our lead(s).
2. Who will determine where to put an item (active - on-hold)?
3. As I understand your proposal, the items will be more different than 
the work-item-list [1]. Will you/we make a list to collect the different 
items before 1st of november?
4. The status "On hold" won't be necessary because then it will be in 
the "ON-HOLD" list
5. The status "Being finalised" won't be necessary because then it will 
be in the "completed archive" list or you must have a coloumn "Status" 
in this list, too.
6. What is the difference between "In proposal" an "In progress"? Maybe 
this should be described.
7. What will happen, if someone tells that he wants to work on a 
"ON-HOLD" item, but the list of active items is 'full' and the others 
don't think it is extremly neceassary to work on it? We won't prevent 
him to work on it. Example: Aleksander made some (great) design 
proposals "out of time".
8. Maybe this example can be a extra list: "GENERAL items" with no 
priority.

9. I'm not sure if we shouldn't colour the "On-HOLD" list, too

*My suggestions regarding these very pertinent questions;*
1. When added, the member adding should assign a priority of discussed 
on this mailing list and then put there initials in brackets alongside 
the number, eg: 3(NS). The Team leads will review this priority when 
they get a chance and their reviewed ranking shoulod just be accepted to 
keep things going. SC members who frequent this list (Charles, Italo) 
would also be able to review priorities. Our Mailing list should not 
become endless discussions and contradictions of our priorities, that is 
why we appointed Team Leads.
2. Same as above, with every person making a decision adding their 
initials alongside.
3. That is a good point I hadn't considered. Can someone help me 
establish the current status and contacts for each of the existing 
tasks. (just add it to the bottom of the current wiki task list page to 
avoid complicating this thread).
4. Good point. But I kept the "on-hold" status to make it easier to 
cut-and-paste a record easily between the ACTIVE tasks and the ON-HOLD 
tasks. Ths way less editing is required.
5. I think we need a "Being finalised" to indicate work is complete on 
the task, but we need to wrap things up (like providing a graphic in 
another format, or waiting on word from the printers etc). It will also 
give us a final "push" to finish the job.
6. In proposal means that requirements for the task are still being 
established, while a task In-progress already has requirements defined 
and is currently being worked on or available to be worked on.
7. Being realistic I think we all know we can't "force" everyone to play 
the same game. We shouldn't. When additonal "out of time" contributions 
are made, we should accept them and move on to what is required. The 
task list on the Work-items page should be to provide focus for the 
regular contributors to this team. It should give direction and make the 
"endorsed" work items clear to anyone wanting to help in our everyday 
operations. Right now, that is not so clear.
8. If we define such a generic list, I'm afraid everything will be 
stored there, we will relax our focus on delivering results. We should 
instead be more rigid: A task is either a) being worked on b)suspended 
due to external influences or c)complete. No lee-way.
9. I'm not opposed to that, but I'd prefer if the only colours on the 
page were alongside things that can be worked on.


And Christoph I'm going to snip alot of your Email to so I can keep my 
responses just as "snappy";



On 11.10.25 08:10, Christoph Noack wrote:

The most important question to me is, whether the availability of the
existing list did attract anybody to work on such items. Most of them
are still open ... unfortunately.
I don't think it did, because in my eyes at least, it was more of a 
heavy wiki-page and not a task-list.
I want to change it to a short and snappy task list. Soemthing I can 
check on quickly even when I'm off-list to get an impression of what is 
happening, how we are faring.

What I became aware in discussions at the FOSDEM, the Hackfest and the
LibO conference is, that we miss a simple way to explain new
contributors what they can do.
That is a different issue but relevant. We have no "starter pack", which 
we've identified before.
I want to work on that soon also, but this takes priority for me. No 
point making it easy to join the team when it isn't clear what you need 
to work on right?

So, where do we currently work on tasks and have some task management?
   * http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design#Work_Items
   * http://wiki.documentfoun

Re: [libreoffice-design] LibreOffice Conference 2011, Personal Summary

[Nik]

Hi Andreas, Klaus, All,

Just wanted to clear something up, so quick response...

On 11.10.25 04:56, klaus-jürgen weghorn ol wrote:

Hi Andreas,
Am 24.10.2011 19:19, schrieb Andreas Mantke:

Hi Nik,

Am Montag, 24. Oktober 2011, 16:41:06 schrieb Nik:



---8< snip ---


I've created a quick copy on my own wiki user-page to run past you
before making any changes to the actual task-list.
Please check this link;
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Nik#Proposed_rearrange_of_Design_Wo 


rk_items


does that mean that nobody will work on the Design / UX of the 
Extensions-/Templates-

Website anymore?


I don't think that it is meant so by Nik. For me it is only a proposal 
with some examples. The lists must be filled in.
IMHO the idea behind the proposal is to show clearlier where we stand 
and where to take the most power.




Thanks for the rescue Klaus-jürgen! =)
Andreas I certainly didn't mean that, I'm sorry for the miscommunication.
I only meant to demonstrate what I meant through examples, like 
Klaus-jürgen mentioned.
That list is by no means indicative of what I consider are active task 
on the Design list!

Some of them, I just plain made up. I should have been more imaginative =(

And if you mean that my undertaking this task means I am abandoning the 
Extensions task, not at all. I still intend to help with that task as 
much as I can in this little gap of time I've been granted. But I'd like 
to do as much "damage" as I can across as many different Design issues 
as I can, /while/ I can.


Hope that clears things up?
And I share your concern. Extensions, and the ease of acquiring them, is 
an essential part of the LibO user experience.

I wouldn't have chipped in a Design if I didn't think so, right? =)
-Nik




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Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Fwd: Re: [libreoffice-design] APP/Online LibreOffice

[Andrew Pullins]

>
>  Question: If a tablet does not offer a mouse (you need to use your
>
> finger instead), has no keyboard (entering text is hard, speech
> recognition does not work yet reliably), does it make _sense_ to use
> LibO for the very same tasks? Or does the "should serve the same tasks"
> make things more complicated than necessary?


Creating documents is what I was referring to. mouse and keyboard are things
we use to make the docs. of course we do not have these things. what task do
you think that the tablet suites should serve. viewing documents, thats
nice... but what if you want to create or edit them.

Sigh. The Design Team is not about the look only, it is about how we can
> support user tasks by efficient workflows. However, any developer I know

 is happy if things work and look good (without requiring too much work
> for him). So why do you think that devs don't care?


because most do not. I do not know any of our devs so if you say that they
are on board and want to make it look good to then why are we
arguing. could have saved some time, and id be a little less pissed off
wanting to just leave all together. the only reason I am here on the design
team is to make the suite look better. but if you guys want to contenue
arguing about this I will just leave. no point arguing with designers about
how it should look pretty, that just sounds stupid.

*g* = fat grin

Sorry for that, I assumed it is (now) common Internet slang.


yah never seen that before.

But back to the original issue; asking developers for a new UI without
> (the Design Team) knowing what to ask for, is hardly working
> together ;-) So my suggestion is that you start to pick some of the open
> questions we've raised in this thread ... that would be extremely
> helpful and also convey to the development that we care.


I do not understand, what questions are you talking about. one question I do
have for the hole mailing list is what do you think of Citrus. have you
looked at it. there are some who have said that they are interested in the
UI apart from me and Mirek but they have not joined in his and my
conversation back and fourth.

what does every one think of it. it is the most complete UI that has
been purposed that I know of. here [1] is Mirek's LO wiki page that goes
through the basics about how it works, and here [2] is his blog that goes
through much more in detail about it. he is working on something, but I do
not know what. have not seen him in a while.

[1]
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Mirek2#Citrus_UI
[2]
http://clickortap.wordpress.com/

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Work Items Management (was: Re: [libreoffice-design] LibreOffice Conference 2011, Personal Summary)

[Christoph Noack]

Hi Nik, all!

Hey, thanks for going forward ... :-)

Am Dienstag, den 25.10.2011, 01:41 +1100 schrieb Nik:
[...]
> I've created a quick copy on my own wiki user-page to run past you 
> before making any changes to the actual task-list.
> Please check this link;
> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Nik#Proposed_rearrange_of_Design_Work_items

An improvement, of course. But I'd like to add some more thoughts... The
most important question to me is, whether the availability of the
existing list did attract anybody to work on such items. Most of them
are still open ... unfortunately.

What I became aware in discussions at the FOSDEM, the Hackfest and the
LibO conference is, that we miss a simple way to explain new
contributors what they can do. I even discussed whether we could learn
from the EasyHacks (or EasyTasks) the developers offer - currently they
have been moved to Bugzilla, because they became unmanageable.

On the other hand, a recent (larger) tasks list would be immensely
helpful for me as well ...

So, where do we currently work on tasks and have some task management?
  * http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design#Work_Items
  * http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards (already
having a simple Recent Topics / Past Topics section)
  * Bugzilla (usually smaller tasks)
  * libreoffice-ux-advise (usually smaller tasks, if bigger, then
moved to a Whiteboard)

Back to your proposal - would it help to change the objective of the
tasks list? My take ... a rough proposal:
  * Larger task will (should) automatically require a Whiteboard
page. The whiteboards overview page might benefit from your
proposed structure.
  * Smaller tasks that new contributors (with varying skills) might
take, should go to a separate section like EasyTasks /
StarterTasks. A similar structure to the task list (which still
keeps the fun) is required here.
  * All other tasks that are less urgent, nobody takes care of
quickly  should go to an "Open Tasks" list. Just to not forget
them ...
  * Bugzilla and libreoffice-ux-advise should stay as they are.

What do you think?

> I would propose we;
> 
> * Separate out items that are "ACTIVE", "ON-HOLD" and "COMPLETED"
>   into three separate tables so that people interested in doing
>   things only have to check the top table.

Sounds very good, especially the "on-hold", because many items are
simply neither active nor completed.

> * Keep the items in the tables short so that our members can more
>   easily see what needs attention right now and what is going on
>   that they would be interested in. Colour coding will help. More
>   detailed information should just be linked to.

Color coding means that somebody has to decide on the priority ...
that's something I'm unsure within a community (from experience, most
people pick the tasks they do like ... whether these are important or
not). On the other hand, I would assign a "high priority" to the
Download Page realization :-)

> * We need to have deadlines, whether we meet them or not (because we
>   are all volunteers). Otherwise everything will end up as an
>   incomplete task that lasts forever.

Yep, if we agree that these should guide but hurt (in terms of
deadlines). Just curious - is there an other term for that?

> * We need to have a client and a representative who speaks on their
>   behalf. That will give us a point of reference rather than having
>   endless internal communication.

Yep. At least someone will send the request ...

However, I think another helpful thing would be to provide information
that tells what we need if someone requests a certain item (I've
collected some ideas for visual design elements, but did not send them
to the list / wiki yet ... maybe the next task).

> * We need to be organised and update this ourselves and move
>   finished jobs out, or move jobs that are on-hold into that table.
>   They shouldn't just stay in the active table.

True, but this will need help by everybody ... which I currently miss a
lot. We have many people on this list, but only veeery few who are
active (whatever small or larger task it may be).


> and most drastically;
> 
> * *We should LIMIT the number of active tasks to just 3-4.* Anything
>   else should not be added until something can be taken off and
>   moved to the completed table. With fewer tasks, we can focus more,
>   we can track them better, we can push them out faster, we can
>   unify our fragmented efforts and we can be held accountable when
>   we don't get things done, because it will show.

Mmh, I really like that for my own stuff ... when looking back at the
last weeks, my work might have appeared a bit unfocused. (Which it
wasn't, of course *g*). However, can we really limit the number of tasks
for if people are free to chose where to spend eff

Re: [libreoffice-design] LibreOffice Conference 2011, Personal Summary

[klaus-jürgen weghorn ol]

Hi Nik, *,
Am 24.10.2011 16:41, schrieb Nik:

Hi all,

I've noticed mention in a couple of places here of the need for us to
make it clearer how we operate.


+1


While I don't have a complete solution, there is an aspect that affects
me (and I imagine, quite a few others) that I'd like to propose a simple
solution to;

Our "tasks/work items" page. It is too long, unkept and badly-sectioned
to be useful as a tool for knowing what needs to be done.
While I realise it isn't going to become an amazing productivity tool
overnight, there are some small improvements that we could make to make
it more useful.

I've created a quick copy on my own wiki user-page to run past you
before making any changes to the actual task-list.
Please check this link;
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Nik#Proposed_rearrange_of_Design_Work_items


I would propose we;

* Separate out items that are "ACTIVE", "ON-HOLD" and "COMPLETED"
into three separate tables so that people interested in doing
things only have to check the top table.
* Keep the items in the tables short so that our members can more
easily see what needs attention right now and what is going on
that they would be interested in. Colour coding will help. More
detailed information should just be linked to.
* We need to have deadlines, whether we meet them or not (because we
are all volunteers). Otherwise everything will end up as an
incomplete task that lasts forever.
* We need to have a client and a representative who speaks on their
behalf. That will give us a point of reference rather than having
endless internal communication.
* We need to be organised and update this ourselves and move
finished jobs out, or move jobs that are on-hold into that table.
They shouldn't just stay in the active table.


and most drastically;

* *We should LIMIT the number of active tasks to just 3-4.* Anything
else should not be added until something can be taken off and
moved to the completed table. With fewer tasks, we can focus more,
we can track them better, we can push them out faster, we can
unify our fragmented efforts and we can be held accountable when
we don't get things done, because it will show.


What do you think?


Good idea.

Some first thoughts/questions about it:
- Who will determine the priorities?  I think mostly our lead(s). This 
should be noticed so we won't get some ugly discussion (as on the 
website/wiki).

- Who will determine where to put an item (active - on-hold)?
- As I understand your proposal, the items will be more different than 
the work-item-list [1]. Will you/we make a list to collect the different 
items before 1st of november?
- The status "On hold" won't be necessary because then it will be in the 
"ON-HOLD" list
- The status "Being finalised" won't be necessary because then it will 
be in the "completed archive" list or you must have a coloumn "Status" 
in this list, too.
- What is the difference between "In proposal" an "In progress"? Maybe 
this should be described.
- What will happen, if someone tells that he wants to work on a 
"ON-HOLD" item, but the list of active items is 'full' and the others 
don't think it is extremly neceassary to work on it? We won't prevent 
him to work on it. Example: Aleksander made some (great) design 
proposals "out of time".

- Maybe this example can be a extra list: "GENERAL items" with no priority.
- I'm not sure if we shouldn't colour the "On-HOLD" list, too

Ok, let me stop here for now.


[1]http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Work_Items


--
Grüße
k-j

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Discussion about Extensions-Site-Layout

[Christoph Noack]

Hi Andreas!

Am Montag, den 24.10.2011, 21:57 +0200 schrieb Andreas Mantke:
> Am Montag, 24. Oktober 2011, 21:23:54 schrieb Christoph Noack:
> (...)
> > Am Sonntag, den 23.10.2011, 17:16 +0200 schrieb Andreas Mantke:
> > > Hi Christoph, *,
> > > 
> > > Am Sonntag, 23. Oktober 2011, 15:58:07 schrieb Christoph Noack:
> > > > Am Sonntag, den 23.10.2011, 13:31 +1100 schrieb Nik:
> > [...]
> > 
> > > but that is not a discussion task only for designer. I created the
> > > Donation-Portlet because there was a discussion and request on
> other
> > > lists (If I remember correctly the website list).
> > > Thus the discussion had to take place on the Website- or the
> > > Foundation-Discuss-List, because otherwise we'll discuss this
> topic
> > > again and again on different lists.
> > 
> > Absolutely! Discussions will take place ... and this was the reason
> for
> > me to start the "what is important for users and us"-list. I think
> that
> > hasn't been clear from my side (sorry). Once we defined the "user
> tasks"
> > with the highest priority (or things we really need to avoid, like
> e.g.
> > advertising), it will be much easier to decide.
> > 
> 
> but that is not a design-only-thing. It should in my opinion be
> discussed on the 
> lists, I suggest above.

And I agreed to that ... I just think its easier to prepare a balanced
list of important / less important things being based on an UX
perspective. That should make it easier to get the others involved (my
hope).

> I created the donation portlet, because there was a strong request for
> it. If we 
> would go in another direction or will change the focus, it should
> discussed on the 
> international discuss list or the website list. And it is no fun for a
> developer, if 
> he had to do everything again and again (You know groundhog day ;-)

Well, I don't think that the donation portlet is a bad idea ... but as
Nik pointed out (which I agree to), it may convey the wrong message.
Especially for people approaching the page ... having not even found an
extension / template that might help them. That's also UX input ...

So, back to the Calc named ranges.

Cheers,
Christoph


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Re: [libreoffice-design] Discussion about Extensions-Site-Layout

[Andreas Mantke]

Hi Christoph, *,

Am Montag, 24. Oktober 2011, 21:23:54 schrieb Christoph Noack:
(...)
> Am Sonntag, den 23.10.2011, 17:16 +0200 schrieb Andreas Mantke:
> > Hi Christoph, *,
> > 
> > Am Sonntag, 23. Oktober 2011, 15:58:07 schrieb Christoph Noack:
> > > Am Sonntag, den 23.10.2011, 13:31 +1100 schrieb Nik:
> [...]
> 
> > but that is not a discussion task only for designer. I created the
> > Donation-Portlet because there was a discussion and request on other
> > lists (If I remember correctly the website list).
> > Thus the discussion had to take place on the Website- or the
> > Foundation-Discuss-List, because otherwise we'll discuss this topic
> > again and again on different lists.
> 
> Absolutely! Discussions will take place ... and this was the reason for
> me to start the "what is important for users and us"-list. I think that
> hasn't been clear from my side (sorry). Once we defined the "user tasks"
> with the highest priority (or things we really need to avoid, like e.g.
> advertising), it will be much easier to decide.
> 

but that is not a design-only-thing. It should in my opinion be discussed on 
the 
lists, I suggest above.
I created the donation portlet, because there was a strong request for it. If 
we 
would go in another direction or will change the focus, it should discussed on 
the 
international discuss list or the website list. And it is no fun for a 
developer, if 
he had to do everything again and again (You know groundhog day ;-)

> > > So, refining the tasks list ... open for discussion, of course.
> > > 
> > > Interest of the people approaching the page:
> > >  1. Getting extensions / templates ... so users should get an
> > >  
> > > initial idea (so showing e.g. the most recent or best rated
> > > items -> from here, people should be able to get further
> > > collections)
> > >  
> > >  2. Getting help how to install Extensions (currently it is still
> > >  
> > > manual work, so we have to help here)
> > 
> > Yes. But there is a link to a howto, that Gustavo and others wrote about
> > this topic, on every extension project page. I worked on the code of
> > Plone Software Center to make it posible that there is a hyperlink (and
> > not only a text-link) to the howto. If it helps, I can put the link also
> > on the homepage.
> 
> Okay, thanks. But, I propose to wait a bit longer until we have the full
> list (I assume that people who never used a wiki will be confused when
> forwarded to another page that looks different).
> 

But the howto is on our main LibreOffice webpage. Currently it could not be 
stored in 
binary file format on the extensions-site, because there is an issue with the 
blobstorrage (where all binary files go) (only for files from the website 
outside the 
Plone Software Center). 

> > >  3. Making it possible to "forward" information / templates to
> > >  other
> > >  
> > > people (use case: advanced user "helps" less experienced person
> > > to find what he might need)
> > 
> > Do you think about sending mails with links to other people?
> 
> May be one solution, yes. But do the other think that this might be
> helpful / desired for such a page?
> 

If you have a description and maybe a mockup, you can post it to the wikipage 
(see 
below).

> > >  4. Upload their own content (this needs refinement as well ...)
> > 
> > I need your proposals. Then I could look into the code of Plone Software
> > Center (PSC) and Plone, what could be done / changed.
> 
> Yep.
> 
> By the way, is there any page that covers the Extension/Template-Center
> development (something like our Whiteboard pages)?

Yes, started longer time ago:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/index.php?title=Exitensions-website

Regards,
Andreas
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Discussion about Extensions-Site-Layout

[Christoph Noack]

Hi Andreas,

before I start ... thanks for being here with us. And being so patient
to answer all our questions :-)

Am Sonntag, den 23.10.2011, 17:16 +0200 schrieb Andreas Mantke:
> Hi Christoph, *,
> 
> Am Sonntag, 23. Oktober 2011, 15:58:07 schrieb Christoph Noack:
> > Am Sonntag, den 23.10.2011, 13:31 +1100 schrieb Nik:
[...]
> but that is not a discussion task only for designer. I created the 
> Donation-Portlet 
> because there was a discussion and request on other lists (If I remember 
> correctly 
> the website list).
> Thus the discussion had to take place on the Website- or the 
> Foundation-Discuss-List, 
> because otherwise we'll discuss this topic again and again on different lists.

Absolutely! Discussions will take place ... and this was the reason for
me to start the "what is important for users and us"-list. I think that
hasn't been clear from my side (sorry). Once we defined the "user tasks"
with the highest priority (or things we really need to avoid, like e.g.
advertising), it will be much easier to decide.


> > So, refining the tasks list ... open for discussion, of course.
> > 
> > Interest of the people approaching the page:
> >  1. Getting extensions / templates ... so users should get an
> > initial idea (so showing e.g. the most recent or best rated
> > items -> from here, people should be able to get further
> > collections)
> >  2. Getting help how to install Extensions (currently it is still
> > manual work, so we have to help here)
> 
> Yes. But there is a link to a howto, that Gustavo and others wrote about this 
> topic, 
> on every extension project page. I worked on the code of Plone Software 
> Center to 
> make it posible that there is a hyperlink (and not only a text-link) to the 
> howto.
> If it helps, I can put the link also on the homepage.

Okay, thanks. But, I propose to wait a bit longer until we have the full
list (I assume that people who never used a wiki will be confused when
forwarded to another page that looks different).

> >  3. Making it possible to "forward" information / templates to other
> > people (use case: advanced user "helps" less experienced person
> > to find what he might need)
> 
> Do you think about sending mails with links to other people?

May be one solution, yes. But do the other think that this might be
helpful / desired for such a page?

> >  4. Upload their own content (this needs refinement as well ...)
> > 
> 
> I need your proposals. Then I could look into the code of Plone Software 
> Center (PSC) 
> and Plone, what could be done / changed.

Yep.

By the way, is there any page that covers the Extension/Template-Center
development (something like our Whiteboard pages)?

Cheers,
Christoph


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Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Fwd: Re: [libreoffice-design] APP/Online LibreOffice

[Christoph Noack]

Hi Andrew, all!

Just a quick answer, since some mails are waiting today ...

Am Montag, den 24.10.2011, 00:21 -0400 schrieb Andrew Pullins:
> >
> > Hi
> 
> 
>  That needs some refinement from my point-of-view. The devices runningAndroid,
> > iOS were made for different tasks ... and became popular for that. Today,
> > people demand to use those devices for different tasks as well - sometimes
> > it works well, sometimes it does not. that. Today, people demand to use
> > those devices for different tasks as well - sometimes it works well,
> > sometimes it does not.
> 
> 
> yah the different tablets will serve different tasks but LibreOffice
> should serve the same task all across the board... I do not see what your
> getting at.

Question: If a tablet does not offer a mouse (you need to use your
finger instead), has no keyboard (entering text is hard, speech
recognition does not work yet reliably), does it make _sense_ to use
LibO for the very same tasks? Or does the "should serve the same tasks"
make things more complicated than necessary?


> My question here is, what tasks can be improved / are required for
> > LibreOffice on such platforms. What set of functionality can be derived
> > for such cases? What tasks will be exclusive for a "classical desktop"?
> > What differentiates LibreOffice on Android/iOS from normal ODF viewers?
> > (You got the point, I guess.)
>
> I don't know, maybe a sort of dumb down LibreOffice. not all the
> functionality needs to go into a tablet suite. what gets taken out or left
> in, I don't know. we will have to decide that some how.

Correct. But the "somehow" starts before asking the devs for a new UI.


>  Why do you think that? As we have different objectives, each developer
> 
>  has his own goal (sometimes aligned with the goal of the company he
> > works for *g*). That means some of them care for the Desktop UI, some
> > might care about the iOS/Android UI
> 
> 
> I think this because most devs do not care about what the thing looks like.
> they could make the absolute ugliest UI ever and they would be happy that it
> worked. the rest of the world would be absolutely confused but that does not
> seem to matter for a dev. they know how to work it why does every one else
> have a problem with it.

Sigh. The Design Team is not about the look only, it is about how we can
support user tasks by efficient workflows. However, any developer I know
is happy if things work and look good (without requiring too much work
for him). So why do you think that devs don't care?


> > (sometimes aligned with the goal of the company he works for *g*).
> 
> 
> ok that is the second or third time I have saw some one say that. what do
> you mean my "*g*".

*g* = fat grin

Sorry for that, I assumed it is (now) common Internet slang.

>  What I perceived at the LibreOffice Conference is, that developers do
> > care about the LibreOffice we have, and that there are more support
> > requests by them than we (on libreoffice-ux-advise) do currently handle
> > (providing facts, collect requirements, do competition analysis, provide
> > UI proposals, test daily builds, ...).
> 
> 
> sounds like we need better communication between teams then.

Yes and no at the same time. If people work together, then communication
simply happens ... libreoffice-ux-advise currently works perfectly well
for what it has been created for.

But back to the original issue; asking developers for a new UI without
(the Design Team) knowing what to ask for, is hardly working
together ;-) So my suggestion is that you start to pick some of the open
questions we've raised in this thread ... that would be extremely
helpful and also convey to the development that we care.

Cheers,
Christoph


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Re: [libreoffice-design] LibreOffice Conference 2011, Personal Summary

[klaus-jürgen weghorn ol]

Hi Andreas,
Am 24.10.2011 19:19, schrieb Andreas Mantke:

Hi Nik,

Am Montag, 24. Oktober 2011, 16:41:06 schrieb Nik:

Hi all,

I've noticed mention in a couple of places here of the need for us to
make it clearer how we operate.
While I don't have a complete solution, there is an aspect that affects
me (and I imagine, quite a few others) that I'd like to propose a simple
solution to;

Our "tasks/work items" page. It is too long, unkept and badly-sectioned
to be useful as a tool for knowing what needs to be done.
While I realise it isn't going to become an amazing productivity tool
overnight, there are some small improvements that we could make to make
it more useful.

I've created a quick copy on my own wiki user-page to run past you
before making any changes to the actual task-list.
Please check this link;
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Nik#Proposed_rearrange_of_Design_Wo
rk_items


does that mean that nobody will work on the Design / UX of the 
Extensions-/Templates-
Website anymore?


I don't think that it is meant so by Nik. For me it is only a proposal 
with some examples. The lists must be filled in.
IMHO the idea behind the proposal is to show clearlier where we stand 
and where to take the most power.


--
Grüße
k-j

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Re: [libreoffice-design] LibreOffice Conference 2011, Personal Summary

[Andreas Mantke]

Hi Nik,

Am Montag, 24. Oktober 2011, 16:41:06 schrieb Nik:
> Hi all,
> 
> I've noticed mention in a couple of places here of the need for us to
> make it clearer how we operate.
> While I don't have a complete solution, there is an aspect that affects
> me (and I imagine, quite a few others) that I'd like to propose a simple
> solution to;
> 
> Our "tasks/work items" page. It is too long, unkept and badly-sectioned
> to be useful as a tool for knowing what needs to be done.
> While I realise it isn't going to become an amazing productivity tool
> overnight, there are some small improvements that we could make to make
> it more useful.
> 
> I've created a quick copy on my own wiki user-page to run past you
> before making any changes to the actual task-list.
> Please check this link;
> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Nik#Proposed_rearrange_of_Design_Wo
> rk_items

does that mean that nobody will work on the Design / UX of the 
Extensions-/Templates-
Website anymore?

The project highly needs an Extensions- and Templates-Site, because we be 
addicted to 
website in this sector, that we have no control over and that is weak and we 
and our 
users could not rely on that site.

Regards,
Andreas
-- 
## Developer LibreOffice
## Freie Office-Suite für Linux, Mac, Windows
## http://LibreOffice.org
## Support the Document Foundation (http://documentfoundation.org)
## Meine Seite: http://www.amantke.de 

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Re: [libreoffice-design] LibreOffice Conference 2011, Personal Summary

[Nik]

Hi all,

I've noticed mention in a couple of places here of the need for us to 
make it clearer how we operate.
While I don't have a complete solution, there is an aspect that affects 
me (and I imagine, quite a few others) that I'd like to propose a simple 
solution to;


Our "tasks/work items" page. It is too long, unkept and badly-sectioned 
to be useful as a tool for knowing what needs to be done.
While I realise it isn't going to become an amazing productivity tool 
overnight, there are some small improvements that we could make to make 
it more useful.


I've created a quick copy on my own wiki user-page to run past you 
before making any changes to the actual task-list.

Please check this link;
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Nik#Proposed_rearrange_of_Design_Work_items

I would propose we;

   * Separate out items that are "ACTIVE", "ON-HOLD" and "COMPLETED"
 into three separate tables so that people interested in doing
 things only have to check the top table.
   * Keep the items in the tables short so that our members can more
 easily see what needs attention right now and what is going on
 that they would be interested in. Colour coding will help. More
 detailed information should just be linked to.
   * We need to have deadlines, whether we meet them or not (because we
 are all volunteers). Otherwise everything will end up as an
 incomplete task that lasts forever.
   * We need to have a client and a representative who speaks on their
 behalf. That will give us a point of reference rather than having
 endless internal communication.
   * We need to be organised and update this ourselves and move
 finished jobs out, or move jobs that are on-hold into that table.
 They shouldn't just stay in the active table.


and most drastically;

   * *We should LIMIT the number of active tasks to just 3-4.* Anything
 else should not be added until something can be taken off and
 moved to the completed table. With fewer tasks, we can focus more,
 we can track them better, we can push them out faster, we can
 unify our fragmented efforts and we can be held accountable when
 we don't get things done, because it will show.


What do you think?

And just to prove I mean business, I'll happily listen to input on this 
matter until the 31st of October. On the 1st of November, whether we are 
ready or not, we will make changes to improve the work items page;

http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Work_Items

-Nik



On 11.10.23 09:26, Christoph Noack wrote:

Hi everyone,

I noticed some discussions that might relate to discussions we've had at
the LibreOffice Conference last week. So, if you want to spend some
minutes, then here is my personal summary:
http://luxate.blogspot.com/2011/10/libreoffice-conference-2011-personal.html

If anything is missing or unclear ... please ask :-)

Cheers,
Christoph





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Re: [libreoffice-design] Discussion about Extensions-Site-Layout

[Christophe Strobbe]

Hi,

At 17:01 22-10-2011, Nik wrote:

Hi Andreas, all,

as promised, a mockup;
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:PROP_ExtensionsSite_111022NS.jpg


Is the grey footer also part of the design you are working on?
The contrast between the white text and the grey background is just 
sufficient, but the contrast between the black text and the grey 
background is too low; the same applies to the grey text and the grey 
background.


(See the Contrast Analyser listed at 
; 
unfortunately only available on Windows and Mac OS.)


Best regards,

Christophe



I've kept it realistic and in-line with the current site 
format/contents so that it would be easier to implement.
The search box could always be moved back outside the Navbar if it 
causes hassles to implement.
I envisage that the "only in current section" and other search 
options (categories) would pop up upon clicking the "plus" alongside 
the search field. Similarly, the full list of languages be made 
visible upon clicking the down-arrow next to the current language.

I have more adventurous ideas, but they can wait.

That gets the ball rolling. Let me know what you think.
-Nik





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