[libreoffice-design] Re: LibreOffice Tablet Suite
I don't know what happened but I sent that... any way I changed the layers so that it would start to be more like the Citrus mock ups. I made a Tap menu like on your blog. I do not know if you are still thinking of that with Citrus but for *Frivl* I think that it will be good to have. In tap you first see Documents or temples if it is your first document. at the bottom of the documents page you have Share, New, and Delete document. I do not know if we should or is possible to make it like your arriginal Tap where like our current Main application, once in tap you can View or create any of the different documents. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: LibreOffice Tablet Suite
you can not see the preview or when you download it you can not view it. if it is the later it is a SVG so you will have to use inkscape to see it. is any one else having this problem? -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: LibreOffice Tablet Suite
i was specifically talking about the google docs link which returns an error, the original i can see fine, my apologies for not making that clear On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 11:06 PM, Andrew Pullins android2...@gmail.comwrote: you can not see the preview or when you download it you can not view it. if it is the later it is a SVG so you will have to use inkscape to see it. is any one else having this problem? -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Sean White, Within Temptation - Your Argument Is Invalid -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: LibreOffice Tablet Suite
Ok here, I changed the permissions. thats weird I always make my docs Anyone with the link. but it should work now. https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B7y5FMHPsyaNOGY2OGY4N2UtN2IzMy00NTk2LThhNmYtY2M1OTRiZGI2YTZh -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] APP/Online LibreOffice
Andrew, there is a thread that has just started, about a search bar for commands (or command launcher). Since you do want to get this Citrus thing started, what about a proposal in this one? Here's the thread, in case you missed it: http://www.mail-archive.com/design@global.libreoffice.org/msg03263.html. Since this was put into discussion, you could help this going on. First, since we don't have a command launcher, before we know how it would work or look like, we need to know if this is a wanted feature. What do you think? Please answer in that thread, if so. Best regards./ Rafael Em 27-10-2011 10:00, Andrew Pullins android2...@gmail.com escreveu: Christoph and others, what about Citrus do you have a problem with. what do you guys see that can be started on. again we need to start on bits in peaces of the UI, so what can we start working on. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: LibreOffice Tablet Suite
Hello Andrew, all, Le Thu, 27 Oct 2011 08:22:06 -0400, Andrew Pullins android2...@gmail.com a écrit : Ok here, I changed the permissions. thats weird I always make my docs Anyone with the link. but it should work now. https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B7y5FMHPsyaNOGY2OGY4N2UtN2IzMy00NTk2LThhNmYtY2M1OTRiZGI2YTZh It is interesting indeed. I have 5 points I'd like to raise at this stage so that we can all be at the same page (both good and bad news): - We already explained that we cannot change the UI of LibreOffice all of a sudden or as a whole, but that incremental improvements will be the way to work. However, when it comes to a tablet interface, things are different, as we do not expect to use the LibreOffice interface. The work that's currently being done by developers is to port the system, the platform, the featureset if you will, but the interface as it stands today would of course not be desirable. This means that a new UI for tablets will be necessary, starting more or less from scratch (I'm sure there will be constraints, etc.) - Designing an interface won't be everything. You can draw a beautiful mock-up, but if the design/UX team does not translate it into specification(s) it will remain a nice mock-up. Developers do not know what to do with a mock-up, it can only be an illustration that gives a general impression. - there will be a specific work to find out the general graphic layer and logic used by LibreOffice on these tablets; the choices made there will in turn influence the interfaces choices. It seems only natural that the UX team forms a common opinion and provides advice (not a free wheeling opinion, but advice based on specification work). - As the completion of the work package of platform porting will take at least one more year and with no clear deadline, the work on such a tablet UI is not exactly urgent. But of course it's good to keep that in our mind/running as a parallel track - What I think will be interesting and very useful for design ecology and user friendliness will be to have commonalities between the LibreOffice interface on the desktop and LibreOffice on tablets, keeping in mind they will of course be completely different; yet certain UX details could be made common or look similar, giving in turn a feeling of comfortable identity between the two. last but not least; it does mean that we need to work on incremental UX improvements first for the LibreOffice desktop, and we need specification work and drafting there. Hope this helps, -- Charles-H. Schulz Membre du Comité exécutif The Document Foundation. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-design] Some ideas to improve the look feel of LO
Hi all, I've collected several ideas regarding the look of LO. Some of them are inspired by word and I think it wouldn't be too hard to realize them. There's a short summary with a few examples in this document: http://ubuntuone.com/7m7AXgeh7OIwGBiCOHAjGh 1) First of all, I think it's time to change the default formatting and coloring of text, shapes and tables. It doesn't have to be extraordinary, but some polish would be nice. Additionally would it be useful if the user could define alternating colors for tables and maybe even export all this to a xml file or something for easy exchange. 2) Pressing Ctrl while resizing a picture or shape should keep the ratio, like e.g. in Inkscape 3) If possible, the markup-language input for formulas should be optional 4) I wonder how useful the text border actually is. We could achieve a cleaner look by simply disabling it by default 5) The handles for resizing and rotating look rather dated. They should be replaced by some squares/circles filled with a nice gradient. 6) There should be some nice borders (e.g. polaroid-style) that could easily be applied to imported graphics What do you think? Some of this might not be trivial to implement, but in my opinion it would be worth the effort. Should I forward the mail to the devs? Kind Regards Alex -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Some ideas to improve the look feel of LO
Hi Alex, let me quickly comment them ... Am Donnerstag, den 27.10.2011, 21:57 +0200 schrieb alexander.wi...@zoho.com: Hi all, I've collected several ideas regarding the look of LO. Some of them are inspired by word and I think it wouldn't be too hard to realize them. There's a short summary with a few examples in this document: http://ubuntuone.com/7m7AXgeh7OIwGBiCOHAjGh Thanks for the visualization ... 1) First of all, I think it's time to change the default formatting and coloring of text, shapes and tables. It doesn't have to be extraordinary, but some polish would be nice. True. Two different activities here * on libreoffice-ux-discuss, Olivier and others discussed fonts standardization (a bit different issue, but touches the defaults) * Cedric (Writer dev) wanted to work on the styles and the stylist in general. Concerning the former, a German guy offered his help. Furthermore, on the developers list there is a recent thread called [Libreoffice] Styles cleanup removing option page std fonts. So, you may simply jump in :-) I already provided some input concerning the types of documents being written. Additionally would it be useful if the user could define alternating colors for tables and maybe even export all this to a xml file or something for easy exchange. True, that's known ... incl. the need for table styles. But an Easy Hack for that would be nice. I didn't have a look whether an issue for that exists. 2) Pressing Ctrl while resizing a picture or shape should keep the ratio, like e.g. in Inkscape Mmh, Shift already does that ... 3) If possible, the markup-language input for formulas should be optional Ongoing work called Visual Formula Input ... has been discussed some months ago on the dev list. If you want to have a look, enable the experimental (unstable) features in Tools - Options - General. I assume it might help to test the feature and provide feedback (but we should ask the dev first). 4) I wonder how useful the text border actually is. We could achieve a cleaner look by simply disabling it by default Well, I got already almost killed at the conf for my agreement to minimize the borders :-) It's ongoing work by Cedric, who worked on the Headers/Footers: http://cedric.bosdonnat.free.fr/wordpress/?p=818 My specification is here: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboard/Writer_SpecialIndicators#Document_Margin_Design Test it in one of the daily builds :-) 5) The handles for resizing and rotating look rather dated. They should be replaced by some squares/circles filled with a nice gradient. I think devs will be happy to get the graphics to implement them. As far as I remember, the elements are rather simple graphics (but we may ask Thorsten, who mentioned them - if I remember well enough). But, there are already 3D and flat handles in LibreOffice. Switching by (Draw) View - Toolbars - Options - Simple Handles (off). 6) There should be some nice borders (e.g. polaroid-style) that could easily be applied to imported graphics Sure - but do you mean to apply them during importing, or applying them afterwards (being interchangable), or do you mean using frame styles? What do you think? Some of this might not be trivial to implement, but in my opinion it would be worth the effort. Should I forward the mail to the devs? I hope it helped a bit. A side note: given your proposals I notice (and that's great, as I mentioned recently), developers do care about such stuff. I can only recommend to subscribe to the developers list and to join to test the daily builds. Cheers, Christoph -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Fwd: Re: [libreoffice-design] APP/Online LibreOffice
Hi Mirek, all! Am Mittwoch, den 26.10.2011, 18:43 +0200 schrieb Mirek M.: [...] I don't really have any internet problems anymore, but I do have time problems. I really have a very busy life right now and my priorities lie elsewhere. I really hope that time issues do not relate to anything problematic ... I hope you're just fine and can enjoy life. And if there is a bit more time again, then it would be cool to have you around ... That said, if I do find the time to do so, I'll devote some time to Citrus now and again, and if anyone has any questions about it, they're welcome to post them. Thanks for that offer! And - although it needs discussion here - thanks for providing Citrus and all the fresh ideas. Cheers, Christoph -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Work Items Management
Hi Nik, before you'll never get a reply from my side ... :-) Am Dienstag, den 25.10.2011, 14:52 +1100 schrieb Nik: Hi Christoph, Klaus-jürgen, All, Thank you both for your input, you thought of a number of things I didn't. I'm going to try condense your questions and provide short(ish) responses so that this thread does not become large and difficult-to-follow; Cool, thanks! *Klaus-jürgen mentioned;* 1. Who will determine the priorities? I think mostly our lead(s). 2. Who will determine where to put an item (active - on-hold)? 3. As I understand your proposal, the items will be more different than the work-item-list [1]. Will you/we make a list to collect the different items before 1st of november? 4. The status On hold won't be necessary because then it will be in the ON-HOLD list 5. The status Being finalised won't be necessary because then it will be in the completed archive list or you must have a coloumn Status in this list, too. 6. What is the difference between In proposal an In progress? Maybe this should be described. 7. What will happen, if someone tells that he wants to work on a ON-HOLD item, but the list of active items is 'full' and the others don't think it is extremly neceassary to work on it? We won't prevent him to work on it. Example: Aleksander made some (great) design proposals out of time. 8. Maybe this example can be a extra list: GENERAL items with no priority. 9. I'm not sure if we shouldn't colour the On-HOLD list, too *My suggestions regarding these very pertinent questions;* 1. When added, the member adding should assign a priority of discussed on this mailing list and then put there initials in brackets alongside the number, eg: 3(NS). The Team leads will review this priority when they get a chance and their reviewed ranking shoulod just be accepted to keep things going. SC members who frequent this list (Charles, Italo) would also be able to review priorities. Our Mailing list should not become endless discussions and contradictions of our priorities, that is why we appointed Team Leads. Fine. 2. Same as above, with every person making a decision adding their initials alongside. Fine as well. 3. That is a good point I hadn't considered. Can someone help me establish the current status and contacts for each of the existing tasks. (just add it to the bottom of the current wiki task list page to avoid complicating this thread). I can help you, but I'm offline from tomorrow/Saturday until Wednesday. 4. Good point. But I kept the on-hold status to make it easier to cut-and-paste a record easily between the ACTIVE tasks and the ON-HOLD tasks. Ths way less editing is required. Sure. From experience I'd say these are small things that can be tweaked afterwards ... I've refined the Agenda and Minutes for the OOo Community Council several times - so no worries. 5. I think we need a Being finalised to indicate work is complete on the task, but we need to wrap things up (like providing a graphic in another format, or waiting on word from the printers etc). It will also give us a final push to finish the job. Fine, although this might be optional ... if we start to have such a fine grained tracking, a percentage value might be more helpful (although project management experience tells us that 80% of the time tasks reside between 95 ... 99%) ;-) Thinking of that, I suggest to have a last update information. That really helps to find orphans / clean up stuff that lies there for too long. Having that in a separate columns makes this even sortable. 6. In proposal means that requirements for the task are still being established, while a task In-progress already has requirements defined and is currently being worked on or available to be worked on. Mmh ... I think we should simply say that its in progress. Although I love processes (and thus the separation of requirements collection vs. solution creation), I think such fine grained status might be added to the proposal itself (if required). 7. Being realistic I think we all know we can't force everyone to play the same game. We shouldn't. When additonal out of time contributions are made, we should accept them and move on to what is required. The task list on the Work-items page should be to provide focus for the regular contributors to this team. It should give direction and make the endorsed work items clear to anyone wanting to help in our everyday operations. Right now, that is not so clear. Okay, the should provide focus (=guidance) for the regular contributor is okay to me. 8. If we define such a generic list, I'm afraid everything will be stored there, we will relax our focus on delivering results. We should instead be more rigid: A task is either a) being worked on b)suspended due to external influences or c)complete. No lee-way. Sounds fun ;-) Just a question - what about new items that don't need to be active,
Re: [libreoffice-design] Some ideas to improve the look feel of LO
Thanks for the feedback, Astron and Christoph,
Nice to hear that some of this stuff is already being worked on or even
implemented :)
1) I sent my suggestions to Dag Wieers and asked him to forward the
mail to the ux-advice and/or help me
2) Well, at least in Inkscape and Gimp Ctrl is the used key so it
might be considered a standard
3) Is this Visual Formula Input something different than the small
window containing icons for integrals, roots etc. ?
Astron: What highlighting? I meant the window containing the raw
input like sqrt{}
4) Cool. Now I remember I already saw that but somehow forgot about it
:)
5) Asked on the ux-advice mailing list
6) The borders should be interchangeable
Maybe tomorrow I'm gonna subscribe to the devs mailing list and submit
my proposals. Good night everyone
Alex
Am Do 27 Okt 2011 22:49:33 CEST schrieb Christoph Noack:
Hi Alex,
let me quickly comment them ...
Am Donnerstag, den 27.10.2011, 21:57 +0200 schrieb
alexander.wi...@zoho.com:
Hi all,
I've collected several ideas regarding the look of LO. Some of them are
inspired by word and I think it wouldn't be too hard to realize them.
There's a short summary with a few examples in this document:
http://ubuntuone.com/7m7AXgeh7OIwGBiCOHAjGh
Thanks for the visualization ...
1) First of all, I think it's time to change the default formatting and
coloring of text, shapes and tables. It doesn't have to be
extraordinary, but some polish would be nice.
True. Two different activities here
* on libreoffice-ux-discuss, Olivier and others discussed fonts
standardization (a bit different issue, but touches the
defaults)
* Cedric (Writer dev) wanted to work on the styles and the stylist
in general. Concerning the former, a German guy offered his
help. Furthermore, on the developers list there is a recent
thread called [Libreoffice] Styles cleanup removing option
page std fonts.
So, you may simply jump in :-) I already provided some input concerning
the types of documents being written.
Additionally would it be
useful if the user could define alternating colors for tables and maybe
even export all this to a xml file or something for easy exchange.
True, that's known ... incl. the need for table styles. But an Easy Hack
for that would be nice. I didn't have a look whether an issue for that
exists.
2) Pressing Ctrl while resizing a picture or shape should keep the
ratio, like e.g. in Inkscape
Mmh, Shift already does that ...
3) If possible, the markup-language input for formulas should be optional
Ongoing work called Visual Formula Input ... has been discussed some
months ago on the dev list. If you want to have a look, enable the
experimental (unstable) features in Tools - Options - General. I
assume it might help to test the feature and provide feedback (but we
should ask the dev first).
4) I wonder how useful the text border actually is. We could achieve a
cleaner look by simply disabling it by default
Well, I got already almost killed at the conf for my agreement to
minimize the borders :-) It's ongoing work by Cedric, who worked on the
Headers/Footers:
http://cedric.bosdonnat.free.fr/wordpress/?p=818
My specification is here:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboard/Writer_SpecialIndicators#Document_Margin_Design
Test it in one of the daily builds :-)
5) The handles for resizing and rotating look rather dated. They should
be replaced by some squares/circles filled with a nice gradient.
I think devs will be happy to get the graphics to implement them. As far
as I remember, the elements are rather simple graphics (but we may ask
Thorsten, who mentioned them - if I remember well enough). But, there
are already 3D and flat handles in LibreOffice. Switching by (Draw)
View - Toolbars - Options - Simple Handles (off).
6) There should be some nice borders (e.g. polaroid-style) that could
easily be applied to imported graphics
Sure - but do you mean to apply them during importing, or applying them
afterwards (being interchangable), or do you mean using frame styles?
What do you think? Some of this might not be trivial to implement, but
in my opinion it would be worth the effort. Should I forward the mail to
the devs?
I hope it helped a bit.
A side note: given your proposals I notice (and that's great, as I
mentioned recently), developers do care about such stuff. I can only
recommend to subscribe to the developers list and to join to test the
daily builds.
Cheers,
Christoph
--
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: LibreOffice Tablet Suite
HI, - We already explained that we cannot change the UI of LibreOffice all of a sudden or as a whole, but that incremental improvements will be the way to work. However, when it comes to a tablet interface, things are different, as we do not expect to use the LibreOffice interface. The work that's currently being done by developers is to port the system, the platform, the featureset if you will, but the interface as it stands today would of course not be desirable. This means that a new UI for tablets will be necessary, starting more or less from scratch (I'm sure there will be constraints, etc.) we are starting from scratch here. yes the UI that Mirek has come up with looks very much the same as his Citrus UI but that is the way it should be(or at least if we decide to go with Citrus[which we should.]) of cores the interface that we have today would not be good on a tablet. I have talked to a few people that USE pages on the ipad a lot at my church to make their sermons, and they have said that you can do too little in pages. they want more tools with the tablet suite. they also say that because of this they make there documents on the computer with M$ word. so some of the curent UI should be put into the tablet suite. - Designing an interface won't be everything. You can draw a beautiful mock-up, but if the design/UX team does not translate it into specification(s) it will remain a nice mock-up. Developers do not know what to do with a mock-up, it can only be an illustration that gives a general impression. what kind of specifications, from what Mirek and I have done so far what do the developers need to make it work? from what I have done it it I can see only one or two things that would need more explaining, which would be that when typing the document the contextbar and maybe the top bar would hide and when press the bar that remains it would reaper. - What I think will be interesting and very useful for design ecology and user friendliness will be to have commonalities between the LibreOffice interface on the desktop and LibreOffice on tablets, keeping in mind they will of course be completely different; yet certain UX details could be made common or look similar, giving in turn a feeling of comfortable identity between the two. the tablet suite should be much more simplistic that the desktop but as I said above from talks I have had people want much more than just the basic text editor. this means that the two UI can be more the same then originality thought. yes some things will be different but some things must stay the same to keep cohesive. last but not least; it does mean that we need to work on incremental UX improvements first for the LibreOffice desktop, and we need specification work and drafting there. Thank you, thats what I have been saying. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Some ideas to improve the look feel of LO
Well, I got already almost killed at the conf for my agreement to minimize the borders :-) It's ongoing work by Cedric, who worked on the Headers/Footers: http://cedric.bosdonnat.free.fr/wordpress/?p=818 My specification is here. http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboard/Writer_SpecialIndicators#Document_Margin_Design Test it in one of the daily builds :-) I personaly do not mind the border being a box, but when looking through the DocumentBorder on the OpenOffice.org page[1] I think that this could change. I like option 2, but I really like option 6. could we could have the option to do all of these, just decide on a defult then let the user choose for themselves. th [1] http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/DocumentBorder#Option_3 -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Some ideas to improve the look feel of LO
Hi, Am 28.10.2011 00:51, schrieb alexander.wi...@zoho.com: 2) Well, at least in Inkscape and Gimp Ctrl is the used key so it might be considered a standard I am not saying Microsoft is the standard. But MS Word uses the shift key for that, as well as OpenOffce.org and LibreOffice. If different word processor applications use the same method for the same thing, I would *not* recommend changing it in one of these common applications. Stefan -- LibreOffice - Die Freiheit nehm' ich mir! -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
