Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: LibreOffice Tablet Suite
I don't have a google account. So the link doesn't work! Am 27.10.2011 14:29, schrieb Sean White: The link does indeed work now, much obliged On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 11:22 PM, Andrew Pullins android2...@gmail.comwrote: Ok here, I changed the permissions. thats weird I always make my docs Anyone with the link. but it should work now. https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B7y5FMHPsyaNOGY2OGY4N2UtN2IzMy00NTk2LThhNmYtY2M1OTRiZGI2YTZh -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: LibreOffice Tablet Suite
Hello Andrew, 2011/10/28 Andrew Pullins android2...@gmail.com HI, - We already explained that we cannot change the UI of LibreOffice all of a sudden or as a whole, but that incremental improvements will be the way to work. However, when it comes to a tablet interface, things are different, as we do not expect to use the LibreOffice interface. The work that's currently being done by developers is to port the system, the platform, the featureset if you will, but the interface as it stands today would of course not be desirable. This means that a new UI for tablets will be necessary, starting more or less from scratch (I'm sure there will be constraints, etc.) we are starting from scratch here. yes the UI that Mirek has come up with looks very much the same as his Citrus UI but that is the way it should be(or at least if we decide to go with Citrus[which we should.]) of cores the interface that we have today would not be good on a tablet. I have talked to a few people that USE pages on the ipad a lot at my church to make their sermons, and they have said that you can do too little in pages. they want more tools with the tablet suite. they also say that because of this they make there documents on the computer with M$ word. so some of the curent UI should be put into the tablet suite. I think it would be very interesting to collect even more granular feedback on what they dislike with Pages from these people, do you think you could do that some time? - Designing an interface won't be everything. You can draw a beautiful mock-up, but if the design/UX team does not translate it into specification(s) it will remain a nice mock-up. Developers do not know what to do with a mock-up, it can only be an illustration that gives a general impression. what kind of specifications, from what Mirek and I have done so far what do the developers need to make it work? from what I have done it it I can see only one or two things that would need more explaining, which would be that when typing the document the contextbar and maybe the top bar would hide and when press the bar that remains it would reaper. Oh... We are very, very far from even 20% of the job of a specification here. Here's a link that I found on a blog, it does not give you the precise manual to write a specification, but it gives you at least an idea of what a specification should contain: http://boadweelaw.com/blog/2007/02/15/how-to-draft-a-specification-or-requirements-document-for-a-contract/ As you can see it's a full document that's needed, it describes very precisely each interaction of the UI. By the way, since what is needed is -at least for LibreOffice on the desktop- only one or two UX feature at a time, the document does not need to be overly complex and long, but you still need to have a specification describing everything, the layout, aspect, behaviour, intended goal of the feature, dependency,etc. Christoph, do you happen to have a specification template? Best, Charles. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: LibreOffice Tablet Suite
Andrew, 2011/10/28 Charles-H. Schulz charles.sch...@documentfoundation.org Hello Andrew, 2011/10/28 Andrew Pullins android2...@gmail.com HI, - We already explained that we cannot change the UI of LibreOffice all of a sudden or as a whole, but that incremental improvements will be the way to work. However, when it comes to a tablet interface, things are different, as we do not expect to use the LibreOffice interface. The work that's currently being done by developers is to port the system, the platform, the featureset if you will, but the interface as it stands today would of course not be desirable. This means that a new UI for tablets will be necessary, starting more or less from scratch (I'm sure there will be constraints, etc.) we are starting from scratch here. yes the UI that Mirek has come up with looks very much the same as his Citrus UI but that is the way it should be(or at least if we decide to go with Citrus[which we should.]) of cores the interface that we have today would not be good on a tablet. I have talked to a few people that USE pages on the ipad a lot at my church to make their sermons, and they have said that you can do too little in pages. they want more tools with the tablet suite. they also say that because of this they make there documents on the computer with M$ word. so some of the curent UI should be put into the tablet suite. I think it would be very interesting to collect even more granular feedback on what they dislike with Pages from these people, do you think you could do that some time? - Designing an interface won't be everything. You can draw a beautiful mock-up, but if the design/UX team does not translate it into specification(s) it will remain a nice mock-up. Developers do not know what to do with a mock-up, it can only be an illustration that gives a general impression. what kind of specifications, from what Mirek and I have done so far what do the developers need to make it work? from what I have done it it I can see only one or two things that would need more explaining, which would be that when typing the document the contextbar and maybe the top bar would hide and when press the bar that remains it would reaper. Oh... We are very, very far from even 20% of the job of a specification here. Here's a link that I found on a blog, it does not give you the precise manual to write a specification, but it gives you at least an idea of what a specification should contain: http://boadweelaw.com/blog/2007/02/15/how-to-draft-a-specification-or-requirements-document-for-a-contract/ As you can see it's a full document that's needed, it describes very precisely each interaction of the UI. By the way, since what is needed is -at least for LibreOffice on the desktop- only one or two UX feature at a time, the document does not need to be overly complex and long, but you still need to have a specification describing everything, the layout, aspect, behaviour, intended goal of the feature, dependency,etc. Christoph, do you happen to have a specification template? As it happened, Christoph just wrote one! http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboard/Writer_SpecialIndicators#Document_Margin_Design Hope this helps, Charles. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Some ideas to improve the look feel of LO
Hi Stefan, I share your view ... but if we want to improve things, then teaching the user might help. There has been a thread on libo-ux-advise talking about Draw/Impress tools behavior ... I proposed to improve feedback via the status bar. anybody (Alex) who could have a look? Cheers, Christoph -- Sent via mobile... Stefan Weigel stefan.wei...@bildungskreis.org schrieb: Hi, Am 28.10.2011 00:51, schrieb alexander.wi...@zoho.com: 2) Well, at least in Inkscape and Gimp Ctrl is the used key so it might be considered a standard I am not saying Microsoft is the standard. But MS Word uses the shift key for that, as well as OpenOffce.org and LibreOffice. If different word processor applications use the same method for the same thing, I would *not* recommend changing it in one of these common applications. Stefan -- LibreOffice - Die Freiheit nehm' ich mir! -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: LibreOffice Tablet Suite
I think it would be very interesting to collect even more granular feedback on what they dislike with Pages from these people, do you think you could do that some time? Oh I will I just wanted to state that some want more than what is pervided in pages, witch suprised me. because when you think tablet's you think that it should be simplistic, but here these people tell me that they want to do more. now I do not know all that you can do in pages or what they want to do, but yes I will be asking them what they would like. there are more people at my church that I can ask as well. Charles-H. thanks for the specifications info and links. Im not sure if this is what you would want but on Mirek's blog he talks about exactly how each thing will work. I have not read your link yet, [1] would this be fine for a specification. this is also the very basic consept of Citrus that makes it awesome. [1] http://clickortap.wordpress.com/citrus/reorg/contextual-menu-bar/ -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: LibreOffice Tablet Suite
Le Fri, 28 Oct 2011 08:22:33 -0400, Andrew Pullins android2...@gmail.com a écrit : I think it would be very interesting to collect even more granular feedback on what they dislike with Pages from these people, do you think you could do that some time? Oh I will I just wanted to state that some want more than what is pervided in pages, witch suprised me. because when you think tablet's you think that it should be simplistic, but here these people tell me that they want to do more. now I do not know all that you can do in pages or what they want to do, but yes I will be asking them what they would like. there are more people at my church that I can ask as well. Charles-H. thanks for the specifications info and links. Im not sure if this is what you would want but on Mirek's blog he talks about exactly how each thing will work. I have not read your link yet, [1] would this be fine for a specification. this is also the very basic consept of Citrus that makes it awesome. [1] http://clickortap.wordpress.com/citrus/reorg/contextual-menu-bar/ So it's the beginning of something like that, but the link you point really needs to be detailed. Actually if Mirek had time to elaborate, we could turn this out into a spec. best, -- Charles-H. Schulz Membre du Comité exécutif The Document Foundation. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: Share the how to collaborate? (was: Re: [libreoffice-design] New web banners. Feedback?)
hi all after some busy weeks where i've been absent from the mailing list, here's a first draft for the collaboration wiki text. http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Collaboration as i said, i don't have a lot of experience with mediawiki, so the formatting could probably be better and there are probably still some language errors ;) what do you think? tobias 2011/10/3 Christoph Noack christ...@dogmatux.com Hi Tobias, all! Am Montag, den 03.10.2011, 21:00 +0200 schrieb Tobias Bernard: So, Tobias (or anybody interested), could you start such a Design/Collaboration page? yes, i could. great idea! Cool - thanks a lot! but i'd probably need some help, because i don't have a lot of exprience with mediawiki (i tried to create a new page, but couldn't find the option to do it). so if someone creates a page i'd write the text ;) Done :-) Here it is ... http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Collaboration Creating a page in MediaWiki is a bit funny, yes. You need to browse to the inexistent page (e.g. by typing in a URL), then you get the option to Create it. But, you need to be logged in. Thanks again! I'm sure we can make it a helpful resource for new team members ... if others think stuff is missing (e.g. I always wanted to know ..., I know others always missed ...), then please jump in. Cheers, Christoph tobias 2011/9/29 Christoph Noack christ...@dogmatux.com Hi Tobias, all! Am Mittwoch, den 28.09.2011, 21:51 +0200 schrieb Tobias Bernard: [...] but as i already said and others too mentioned, it *is* a problem, when design is done with proprietary software and no soures are available in a standard format (in our case SVG). [...] in any way, i highly recommend everyone to use free software from the very beginning, so we don't have to deal with such problems in the future. I still totally agree ... and you've stated many reasons why the use of open file formats and free software is required to enable collaboration. So, I'd like to kindly ask you for a favor - could you please summarize these thoughts on a wiki page, so that other new community members get an idea how we usually work? That was something I had in mind since quite some time ... but never managed to start writing such a page. I promise that I'll add stuff later ;-) And, it would be greatly complement our already existing tools page: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/User_Experience/Tools So, Tobias (or anybody interested), could you start such a Design/Collaboration page? Cheers, Christoph 2011/9/28 David Nelson li...@traduction.biz Hi guys, Sorry, but I disagree with criticising Aleksandar like this. 1) We need creative people doing work for our project. I don't really care what he uses, as long as the format of the source files is accessible. Sure, it would be great if he was using Gimp or Inkscape, but Photoshop can output files that can be read with those programs, and Gimp can read .psd. 2) We all have our favorite tools. I run Linux 24/7 on my system, but I always keep a copy of Photoshop 6/ImageReady installed using Wine/Crossover Office, simply because I know how to easily do things with them that *can* be done with Gimp but only in a more round-about manner. Plus, there are things that Gimp and Photoshop each do slightly better or worse than the other. So I think Aleksandar should be left to use what tools he wants. You do know that Photoshop is a *very* commonly-used tool among graphic artists, right? So can we stop the flaming in this thread about tools? Tobias,Vitorio, when I the same real productive output for the LibreOffice project from you guys as Aleksandar has contributed, then you can start bitching. Until then, please let the guy work in peace. Thanks. ;-) -- David Nelson -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems?
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: LibreOffice Tablet Suite
Hi Charles, hi Andrew, all! Charles, thanks for the explanations ... although I wasn't able to reply, I've read some of them at work (of course, during an official break *g*). Very well explained, thanks! Here another take ... and by the way, I read the remaining mails in this thread. So Andrew, I might refer to this or that you wrote after this mail. Am Freitag, den 28.10.2011, 09:05 +0200 schrieb Charles-H. Schulz: Hello Andrew, 2011/10/28 Andrew Pullins android2...@gmail.com [...] we are starting from scratch here. yes the UI that Mirek has come up with looks very much the same as his Citrus UI but that is the way it should be(or at least if we decide to go with Citrus[which we should.]) of cores the interface that we have today would not be good on a tablet. I have talked to a few people that USE pages on the ipad a lot at my church to make their sermons, and they have said that you can do too little in pages. they want more tools with the tablet suite. they also say that because of this they make there documents on the computer with M$ word. so some of the curent UI should be put into the tablet suite. I think it would be very interesting to collect even more granular feedback on what they dislike with Pages from these people, do you think you could do that some time? Yes, some qualitative feedback would be nice ... some hint: don't ask for the features they miss, ask for what they wanted to do and where they experienced problems. And, after finishing the interview, I suggest that you ask what other office productivity suites they use - otherwise its very hard to compare. Why this approach? Because normal users always tend to answer they need certain features, although they never use them ... it might sound cold-hearted from my side, but here we need to protect them to fiddle around with their choice :-) I once summarized that for OOo Renaissance: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Renaissance/FAQ (Sorry, wiki is down ... once it is back, you'll find something like Does adding functionality hurt?) - Designing an interface won't be everything. You can draw a beautiful mock-up, but if the design/UX team does not translate it into specification(s) it will remain a nice mock-up. Developers do not know what to do with a mock-up, it can only be an illustration that gives a general impression. what kind of specifications, from what Mirek and I have done so far what do the developers need to make it work? from what I have done it it I can see only one or two things that would need more explaining, which would be that when typing the document the contextbar and maybe the top bar would hide and when press the bar that remains it would reaper. Oh... We are very, very far from even 20% of the job of a specification here. Here's a link that I found on a blog, it does not give you the precise manual to write a specification, but it gives you at least an idea of what a specification should contain: http://boadweelaw.com/blog/2007/02/15/how-to-draft-a-specification-or-requirements-document-for-a-contract/ Thanks for the link! Andrew, for LibreOffice, being an end-user software for *many* people, we finally need to cover more. But let's explain that step by step ... A mockup or a blog post is great to transport an idea - to get interest by other people and to make sure that those people see the potential. But for the implementation (which is more than development) you need to involve a lot of people. Besides the explanations in the link above, you'll finally need accessibility, translation hints, QA details, edge-cases behavior, potential migration issues, ... Don't get feared :-) Turning an idea into a feature needs a bit experience, but isn't black magic ... for example, when I did my very first contributions for OOo, I simply reviewed a lot of specifications by the Sun developers (Some years later, I was told that almost everyone in the Hamburg offices knew me for that ...). Did that help? Yes, because I did not knew the topic too well (like a new developer), so I hinted towards missing / incorrect stuff the author simply assumed to be known. Back to the topic: A specification (or more relaxed: a whiteboard page) for a rather complex feature serves as a hub that connects all the different teams. André and I did a presentation on the LibO conference explaining exactly that ... and you might be surprised what we need to make sure that even tiny features work right from the start: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/cgi_img_auth.php/e/e6/2011-10-15v3_LibOCon_Non-Hacker-Tasks_Schnabel-Noack.pdf Here is André's specification proposal: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Andreschnabel/Spec_Calc_grid_lines_on_colored_background As you can see it's a full document that's needed, it describes very precisely each interaction of the UI. By the way, since what is needed is -at least for LibreOffice on the desktop- only one
Re: Share the how to collaborate? (was: Re: [libreoffice-design] New web banners. Feedback?)
Hi Tobias! First, thanks for the help :-) Am Freitag, den 28.10.2011, 17:51 +0200 schrieb Tobias Bernard: hi all after some busy weeks where i've been absent from the mailing list, here's a first draft for the collaboration wiki text. http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Collaboration as i said, i don't have a lot of experience with mediawiki, so the formatting could probably be better and there are probably still some language errors ;) what do you think? That's great - it is much simpler to refine something once its there, than having to create something new. So I felt free to add some introduction, changed the formatting / numbering a bit, added a license recommendation, and changed the text a bit. Concerning the latter, my aim was to emphasize the personal contribution ... I hope that's fine for you. Thanks a lot! What's the next thing you'd like to improve? ;-) Cheers, Christoph 2011/10/3 Christoph Noack christ...@dogmatux.com Hi Tobias, all! Am Montag, den 03.10.2011, 21:00 +0200 schrieb Tobias Bernard: So, Tobias (or anybody interested), could you start such a Design/Collaboration page? yes, i could. great idea! Cool - thanks a lot! but i'd probably need some help, because i don't have a lot of exprience with mediawiki (i tried to create a new page, but couldn't find the option to do it). so if someone creates a page i'd write the text ;) Done :-) Here it is ... http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Collaboration Creating a page in MediaWiki is a bit funny, yes. You need to browse to the inexistent page (e.g. by typing in a URL), then you get the option to Create it. But, you need to be logged in. Thanks again! I'm sure we can make it a helpful resource for new team members ... if others think stuff is missing (e.g. I always wanted to know ..., I know others always missed ...), then please jump in. Cheers, Christoph tobias 2011/9/29 Christoph Noack christ...@dogmatux.com Hi Tobias, all! Am Mittwoch, den 28.09.2011, 21:51 +0200 schrieb Tobias Bernard: [...] but as i already said and others too mentioned, it *is* a problem, when design is done with proprietary software and no soures are available in a standard format (in our case SVG). [...] in any way, i highly recommend everyone to use free software from the very beginning, so we don't have to deal with such problems in the future. I still totally agree ... and you've stated many reasons why the use of open file formats and free software is required to enable collaboration. So, I'd like to kindly ask you for a favor - could you please summarize these thoughts on a wiki page, so that other new community members get an idea how we usually work? That was something I had in mind since quite some time ... but never managed to start writing such a page. I promise that I'll add stuff later ;-) And, it would be greatly complement our already existing tools page: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/User_Experience/Tools So, Tobias (or anybody interested), could you start such a Design/Collaboration page? Cheers, Christoph 2011/9/28 David Nelson li...@traduction.biz Hi guys, Sorry, but I disagree with criticising Aleksandar like this. 1) We need creative people doing work for our project. I don't really care what he uses, as long as the format of the source files is accessible. Sure, it would be great if he was using Gimp or Inkscape, but Photoshop can output files that can be read with those programs, and Gimp can read .psd. 2) We all have our favorite tools. I run Linux 24/7 on my system, but I always keep a copy of Photoshop 6/ImageReady installed using Wine/Crossover Office, simply because I know how to easily do things with them that *can* be done with Gimp but only in a more round-about manner. Plus, there are things that Gimp and Photoshop each do slightly better or worse than the other. So I think Aleksandar should be left to use what tools he wants. You do know that Photoshop is a *very* commonly-used tool among graphic artists, right? So can we stop the flaming in this thread about tools? Tobias,Vitorio, when I the same real productive output for the LibreOffice project from you guys as Aleksandar has contributed, then you can start bitching. Until then, please let the guy work in peace. Thanks. ;-) -- David Nelson -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List
[libreoffice-design] I'm going to leave the community - thanks to all of you!
Hi all, I'm very sorry that I have to announce this: I can't spend my time on LibreOffice any more. During the last weeks (to be honest: even the last months) I only read this list and some of the others I'm subscribed to, but my replies became very rare. I tried for a very long time to avoid compromising my private life with my LibreOffice (and previously OpenOffice.org) activities. But looking on my life I have to confess, that this didn't really work out. From now on I will try to spend more time with the most important people in my real life: my children and my friends. Even if I like being here very much, real life is more important - and if you understand that you have to spend your time wisely, your decision is clear... I'm not the one to reduce my activities until a certain amount of work: It turned out in the past that I had been as active as before (or even more) after a few week's time. So I have to stop all my LibreOffice activities and hope that you keep up the great work you already do. It has been very much fun to be a part of this community. I learned quite a lot during the 6 or 7 years of in the OpenOffice.org and LibreOffice community (I improved not only my English), but the most important part of the work here is to meet not only co-workers, but friends. I'm leaving very reluctantly, but as the day has less than 30 hours to work, I know that my decision is the right one. Thank you that I could be part of such a great community - and a design team that starts to become more and more important inside this community. Best regards Bernhard -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
