Re: [libreoffice-design] IRC chat
I think I could attend on sunday -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-design] Design ethos
Hi everyone, Could we agree to use the Firefox UX principles [1] as the basis for our design ethos? I'd like to get this approved on the upcoming IRC chat. If you have any issues with it, please speak up. [1] http://uxmag.com/articles/quantifying-usability -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] IRC chat
Hi Mirek, I wouldn't mind doing it on Sunday, either. So, unless anyone else really wants to come to the Saturday meeting, ... let's do it on Sunday. Astron. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] IRC chat
Hi Mirek, I wouldn't mind doing it on Sunday, either. So, unless anyone else really wants to come to the Saturday meeting, ... let's do it on Sunday. Astron. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] IRC chat
On Wed, Jun 6, 2012 at 6:15 PM, Stefan Knorr (Astron) heinzless...@googlemail.com wrote: Hi Mirek, I wouldn't mind doing it on Sunday, either. So, unless anyone else really wants to come to the Saturday meeting, ... let's do it on Sunday. Great! Sunday, 16:00 UTC it is, then. I'll post this time to the wiki and on Google+. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Design ethos
Hi all Quick speach to say it seems me a good idea. I'm sorry I don't have time to say more these weeks but I think they are good principles. Kévin 2012/6/6 Mirek M. maz...@gmail.com Hi everyone, Could we agree to use the Firefox UX principles [1] as the basis for our design ethos? I'd like to get this approved on the upcoming IRC chat. If you have any issues with it, please speak up. [1] http://uxmag.com/articles/quantifying-usability -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] [Patch] Make new About dialogue a little nicer
Hi Klaus-Jürgen, Have you tried to do it with a darker green background and white writing and rectangles like these business cards [1] and some other artworks? I haven't, though it should be pretty easy for you to do it yourself (it would probably look cool, but I really want to get off this dialogue some time in the near future): * the background and logo are just SVG images – if you install a 3.6 nightly, you'll find these files in the program folder of your LibreOffice installation – you can easily replace them * the colors are hard-coded in a source file in cui/source/about.cxx – this might be out of your reach for now, however, you can always make a mockup. Astron. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Design ethos
Hi Björn, The principles I put on the whiteboard was just me spitballing. The initial idea was that the community would suggest design principles and we'd refine them until we got something well-defined and something that we could all agree on. The new proposal is to take Mozilla's design principles as our basic guidelines, as those have worked well for them, and work off of those. As I believe that is a better approach, I'll simply address your concerns with that. On Wed, Jun 6, 2012 at 6:50 PM, Björn Balazs b...@lazs.de wrote: I think this is a general problem with general guidelines as they are outlined in the mentioned article as well. Either they are so abstract that nobody would reject them - but then it is also hard to derive any consequence out of them --- Or they are specific but exceptions are the rule. With the ideal design principles, exceptions would never be allowed. Mozilla's principles may not be perfect, but they're quite good and we could fix their bugs as we encounter them. Could you point out specific points that you don't feel good about? I see a possible solution - and hey, surprise - this again has to do with researching and understanding users: I think we should try to define conditions user under which certain rules apply. Conditions could be something like If the user is likely to be in a stressful situation, prefer to the use of a wizard As I stated before, I'm a bit hesitant about user research -- not because I don't believe it can't be useful, but because we have to be careful to do it correctly, as otherwise it can be quite detrimental to our design. If done badly, user research can be used to justify just about any design. I continue researching user design. Windows seems to do a lot of it [1], but I'm not sure how much it helps them, given that they're dropping everything they know for Metro, which firmly stands against the overcrowded ribbons their research has gained them. Mozilla seems to first design, then test, much like we do now, but then it has some guidelines that help it shape its design [2]. elementary does some basic user research (if it can be called that) on Google+ [3]. Gnome design team doesn't do any, which is a bit surprising, as, IMHO, that's one of the best open-source design communities out there. I would definitely be interested to hear about your own personal experience with user research and how it has lead to design decisions (with concrete examples, if possible). Plus every open-source project that cares about design listens to its users, of course, and the advantage of open development is that people can see the changes before the product is released, so design bugs can be caught before release. We've seen this just recently, with two people reaching out to us, one on G+ and one on the IRC, complaining about the usability of the new About dialog, which Astron has fixed. This is just my experience, perhaps I did misunderstand your intention here. What do you think? I feel like Mozilla's design principles have worked for them and that they would be a good starting point for our own principles. As for user research, I see it as a means to an end. It's definitely something that will help us refine our principles and form our HIG, but we should be careful, as user research can be quite misleading. We should ensure that our principles and our HIG can be followed under all circumstances -- exceptions should never be the rule. [1] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=532j9sfBcbQ [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMDBwa4huUYfeature=player_embedded [3] https://plus.google.com/114635553671833442612/posts -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Play with the Windows look
Hi Astron, On Wed, Jun 6, 2012 at 7:40 PM, Stefan Knorr (Astron) heinzless...@googlemail.com wrote: Hi Mirek, Kendy I visited Kendy yesterday, he showed me a build of LibreOffice with Aero glass menus, and he told me that it's possible to make a theme specifically for Windows (or a specific version of Windows) -- we just need to design it. I've taken a look at it, and right now, it seems, the menu text is transparent ... but I believe that's trivial to fix. I've done a mockup of what it would look like with black text: . ? (So, yeah, still not completely readable. MSO 2010 has a relatively opque gradient coming up from the ribbon which makes that work: ) However, it is really bad timing now since a few days ago it turned out that MS will be abandoning Aero with Windows 8 [4]. They even go so far as to call it looking dated and cheesy (click through to the MSDN source). :) That's what I told Kendy. I have to agree with Microsoft, though -- Aero was a resource-hungry skeumorphic UI that was more about the show and less about the user (it makes content less readable and distracts the user with whatever is happening in the background). I have to say I love Metro's (and Android Holo's) authentically digital design. I've tried Windows 8 Release Preview, and they still use some translucency effects on the desktop, but it's not nearly as pronounced as it used to be in Vista and 7. Yet, all of the desktop somehow looks wrong, like a step back into plastic XP land... Thus, I'm not convinced that they really want to ship it as it is now. Now, how about we just use some gradient-from-the-bottom look, like MS Office does: http://cdn.blogsdna.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/Power-Word-Office-2010-Addin.jpg ? To be honest, I'd prefer a solid-color menu bar, but as both you and Kendy insist on using Aero glass in the menu bar and I could care less about Windows, how about something like this: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Doze3.png ? -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-design] Re: [Buttons] Creating/Improving LibreOffice web banners/buttons for external website use
I was about to nudge the list to see if anything could to be done about creating buttons and notice that KJ has added some samples on the wiki page[1]. Here are my impressions: * 88x15 and 88x31 -- nice designs. The problem I see with these is that I don't think the TDF/LibreOffice page icon is yet well known enough. Could we see LibreOffice there instead of the page icon? Or, actually, could you leave these buttons there and have another set without the page icon but with LibreOffice (in LibreOffice green)? 110x32 -- could you re-size the 88x31 to this size? The rest of the sizes are great! They are really banner size once they get to this size, but nice to have. I like the 728x90 that offers different colours for use on external website where colour is a concern, but, IMO, we should not stray too far from our iconic LibreOffice green+scatter+page icon elements; this is what really sets us apart from the look'n'feel of other office suite icons. QR codes! Thanks! These will really come in useful for marketing purposes. Works great! Once these are done, could they be put up to a vote and then then listed on the official design resources page[2]? Once they are listed on the official resources page, I'll see about getting the buttons setup for hosting on our servers and start advertising the fact that we now have buttons for external site use. Thanks a lot for the help. Marc [1] http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/External_web_banners [2] http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Visual_Elements -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Design ethos
Hi Mirek, Am Mittwoch, 6. Juni 2012, 19:46:09 schrieb Mirek M.: Hi Björn, The principles I put on the whiteboard was just me spitballing. The initial idea was that the community would suggest design principles and we'd refine them until we got something well-defined and something that we could all agree on. The new proposal is to take Mozilla's design principles as our basic guidelines, as those have worked well for them, and work off of those. As I believe that is a better approach, I'll simply address your concerns with that. Ok, I understand that now. It usually is a good idea to build upon proven things. We will use those to demonstrate the problems. Just as a forword - despite of what I write now, it might be ok to use these principles - it simply depends on the goal we have. Let me quote from the article: Developers encountering these keywords likely won't have any additional interface design training, so it is important that each heuristic is very clearly defined with specific examples and detailed explanations. Additionally, allowing developers to view all of the bugs in the software marked as the same type of issue, both current and resolved, serves as an effective way for them to further learn about the heuristic. Therefor I understand these principles as guidelines for developers to become aware of UX, perhaps learn a tiny bit. Opposite I do understand something like the design ethos as rules for us - experienced designers and UX professionals. So, I think the sugested rules are good for teaching developers, but I think this is not what we want to do - ?questionmark? On Wed, Jun 6, 2012 at 6:50 PM, Björn Balazs b...@lazs.de wrote: I think this is a general problem with general guidelines as they are outlined in the mentioned article as well. Either they are so abstract that nobody would reject them - but then it is also hard to derive any consequence out of them --- Or they are specific but exceptions are the rule. With the ideal design principles, exceptions would never be allowed. Mozilla's principles may not be perfect, but they're quite good and we could fix their bugs as we encounter them. Could you point out specific points that you don't feel good about? No problem: ux-feedback Interfaces should provide feedback about their current status. Users should never wonder what state the system is in. [Source: Nielsen] - How would you solve the save-icon discussion of the last weeks with this rule? (BTW: the rule is absolutely right, but hard to derive consequences out of it) ux-implementation-level Interfaces should not be organized around the underlying implementation and technology in ways that are illogical, or require the user to have access to additional information that is not found in the interface itself. [Source: Nielsen, Cooper] - I do not even understand this one. ux-jargon Users should not be required to understand any form of implementation level terminology. (This principle is a special case of ux-implementation- level). [Source: Nielsen] - This rule is true most of the times, but what about developers as users, if we are developing an application for developers? They might be interested in this kind of terminology. But you could also stretch this rule further: It should actually say, use an appropriate language, because if you use any word (not only implementation level terminology) that users do not understand, they are lost. But what is this level? Answer can only be given by research. ux-control Users should always feel like they are in control of their software. (This principle is often the nemesis of ux-interruption, especially in cases where developers assume users want more control than they actually want). [Source: Nielsen] - How do you meassure the feeling? How about actually having control? Is that needed as well? ux-minimalism Interfaces should be as simple as possible, both visually and interactively. Interfaces should avoid redundancy. (This principle is often the nemesis of ux-discovery since removing or hiding items deep into the interface forces the user to rely more on memory than recognition). [Source: Nielsen] - So no shadows? No gradients? Nothing that helps to make the app feel natural? I would agree with, do not put in unneeded clutter - but again, what is needed? What is simple as possible. = If you consider all the nemesises mentioned in the rules you can easily see, that you can never apply all rules. So when do you turn to which side? An experience I have made with usability testing, esp. with expert tests and even in more detail with NIelsens heuristic evaluation which these rules are based upon is: If a customer fixes all bugs you found with the first expert testing, you can simply priotorize other heuristics higher the next time you test and he can do it all again. So my experience is: They are too general, it is too optional which rules are
Re: [libreoffice-design] Play with the Windows look
Hi Mirek, To be honest, I'd prefer a solid-color menu bar, but as both you and Kendy insist on using Aero glass in the menu bar and I could care less about Windows, how about something like this: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Doze3.png ? By no means am I insisting on that – I do see the inherent readability/beauty problems. But if we go with the glassy look, I think we should try make it look as good and readable as possible, i. e. we should not make it look like it is Firefox (traditional menu) and Thunderbird (before the tabs-above-the-menu look was introduced) [1]. Astron. [1] http://cloud.addictivetips.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Add-ons-manager.jpg -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
RE: [libreoffice-design] Document Saved indicator
Titlebar might not be the best place to move such an indicator to. Consider distros like Ubuntu that integrate the Titlebar into the top panel when window is maximized. Is there a reason to not have the Save Icon act as the indicator--it just won't work if it's an icon and therefore has to follow the icon rules? Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 15:13:43 -0400 From: kohei.yosh...@gmail.com To: design@global.libreoffice.org Subject: Re: [libreoffice-design] Document Saved indicator On 06/04/2012 08:54 AM, nick rundy wrote: But you say it is not reliable to rely on the save icon to show modification status? That the status bar is a more accurate indicator of this? Yes. For now it's the indicator in the status bar. And (as I understand it) folks here are discussing about moving it to somewhere else to places such as the title bar. Kohei -- Kohei Yoshida, LibreOffice hacker, Calc -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] LibreOffice Design: Windows look
I like your concept a lot, but it currently looks too childish with all these strong shadows and thick borders. Something more subtle would be fine. Also, I don’t understand why the apps have that big icon in the top left corner. It is meant to be a button? If so, what it does? -- Fitoschido On Wed, Jun 6, 2012 at 10:27 PM, Shady shady...@gmail.com wrote: Since we are spreaking a lot about the new LibreOffice Look for Windows, I find this the rignt moment to reveal my progress. With this Design I think that LO will look up to what other softwares of the same category are. I was focused on the use of the proper color themes of the LO tools witch gives a unique identity and environment. You can use my work as a base, change whatever is unsuitable and add whatever is missing. I made the mockup for LO Writer and Calc, with these you can guiess what Impress and the other should look like, I can make them if there is the need and the time to. Sorry for the thickness of LO Clac sheet, I didn't mean to make it as so but that's the best I counld do, also I used the previous Windows look Example so I didn't consider the Aero effect, but that's not hard to implement in this design, I may do it later on. Special thanks to Mirek2 for his Windows look Example it is a good base to conceive your design. https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Playground/Windows_look Here is my work, tell me what you think about it. Thank you. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-design] Re: LibreOffice Design: Windows look
Yes, I forgot to mention that the button at the top left is supposed to be the new LO File menu but you can see it as a possible main menu button, I imagined that it could be blinking... or just shines when mouse is on it. -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/LibreOffice-Design-Windows-look-tp3988620p3988630.html Sent from the Design mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
