Re: [libreoffice-design] Contrast issues

2016-01-30 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi Christophe, Heiko, all!

To make it short - thanks for your valuable feedback. I started to work
on the contrast issue and also the missing symbols. Albeit not yet
perfect, you may have a look at the update:
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/images/d/d5/LibreOffice_LogoImprovements2016_Ideation_IconsInclMotif.png

Details:
 * The picture above is still meant to present how some basic elements
   could look like (e.g. logo, symbols, colors, motif)
 * Updated contrast and colors (worst case causes a local contrast
   ratio of about 2.7, in general its much better - still working on
   it)
 * Updated pixel alignment and thus sharpness / clarity (symbols and
   parts of the logo are now aligned to real pixels)
 * Added symbols for additional modules (some of them still need
   improvement, but it is a start ...)
 * I did not update the source SVG and PNG yet ... so there is quite
   some stuff missing (I just need a bit more spare time *g*)

Comments?

And...

Am Dienstag, den 26.01.2016, 12:01 +0100 schrieb Christophe Strobbe:
> Hi Christoph,
> 
> On 25/01/2016 22:40, Christoph Noack wrote:
> > Hi Christophe,
[...]  

> > Am Montag, den 25.01.2016, 16:18 +0100 schrieb Christophe Strobbe:
> > > On 23/01/2016 23:45, Heiko Tietze wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, 23 January 2016 23:02:34 CET Christoph Noack
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > What are your initial thoughts, pros, cons, or ideas? I would
> > > > > really
> > > > > appreciate your feedback - and your questions. And, if
> > > > > needed,
> > > > > I'll set
> > > > > up a dedicated whiteboard for that topic ...?Thanks!
> > [...]

> The pink colour that is used in some of the logo variants (for
> strings like "platform" and "other information & events") has the
> colour code #FF00FF and this also provides insufficient contrast
> against the white background. The colour would be fine for bold 18 pt
> text, but not for the current size and weight.

The pink color is meant as placeholder - the content itself (e.g.
version number of LibO) shall use the "usual" colors (as presented in
the example next to the placeholder version). However, next step is to
have a look at the colored versions of the LibreOffice logo.


> Let me know if you want me to test more samples.

Thanks for your kind offer. I'll try to improve and then it would be
great to have you looking at it.

Have a nice evening!
Christoph

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Contrast issues (was: Some Ideation on LibreOffice Logo Improvements)

2016-01-25 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi Christophe,

cool - thanks for the first check! And, before I continue: HDM? Then it
should easily be possible to meet some day :-)

Am Montag, den 25.01.2016, 16:18 +0100 schrieb Christophe Strobbe:
> On 23/01/2016 23:45, Heiko Tietze wrote:
> > On Saturday, 23 January 2016 23:02:34 CET Christoph Noack wrote:
> > > What are your initial thoughts, pros, cons, or ideas? I would
> > > really
> > > appreciate your feedback - and your questions. And, if needed,
> > > I'll set
> > > up a dedicated whiteboard for that topic ...?Thanks!
[...]
> 
> There are contrast issues in some of the logos at
> <https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/images/2/25/LibreOffice_LogoImpr
> ovements2016_Ideation.png>.
> (The criterion is use for contrast comes from Success Criterion 1.4.3
> in
> the W3C's Web Content Accessibility Guidelines (WCAG) 2.0:
> <https://www.w3.org/TR/2008/REC-WCAG20-20081211/#visual-audio-contras
> t-contrast>. 
> I used the Colour Contrast Analyser from
> <https://www.paciellogroup.com/resources/contrastanalyser/> to check 
> the
> contrast.)

Thanks! In the past I've used The Gimp for checking against e.g. color
blindness issues (e.g. for the Writer's notes colors) - I didn't check
color contrast yet. So I did a quick search but wasn't able to find a
suitable tool for Linux (Gnome) - just a few websites implementing the
algorithm. Do you have any hint what tool might just work for my
environment?

> For example, in the logos above the first horizontal line:
> * in the logo with the green background, the contrast varies on where
> you check (due to the gradient):
> ** close to the "L": #FF on #36B923: contrast ratio of 2.59 to 1
> ** close to the other end of the name: #FF on #18A203: contrast
> ratio of 3.38 to 1
> * in the logo with the grey background, the contrast is OK: #FF
> on
> #66: contrast ratio of 5.74 to 1

Again, thanks for the hints. I will consider that for the next
iteration.

> The green letters on a white background also have insufficient
> contrast.

Do you refer to the colored version of the LibreOffice logo (dark gray
/ green)?

Cheers,
Christoph

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Some Ideation on LibreOffice Logo Improvements

2016-01-25 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi Heiko, all!

Am Montag, den 25.01.2016, 14:45 +0100 schrieb Heiko Tietze:
> To me, design is all about analysis and structure, and less of
> creativity. You tell a story with graphics and illustration instead
> of the text. And the question is rather what story we want to tell.
> The UX guys call this a "vision" [1] :-)

I'd like to object (a bit) :-) Even Mechanical Engineering is about
designing something - after analyzing the problem (requirements /
constraints / context) it still needs some creativity and experience to
deliver good solutions. Of course, it also needs testing (and I
currently consider our discussions as expert reviews I do highly
appreciate). Now then...

> Some ideas for the marketing people: 
> 
> Libreoffice is
> * Easy to use (Illustrated with polygonal lines in b/w)
> * Professional (Indicated by the letter-spacing)
> * User-centered (Dog-ears as in normal life)
> * Versatile (The logo could be enhanced with brush strokes in our
> rainbow colors; Looking through Google images after search for 'brush
> stroke rainbow' we could also show some history in the rainbow stroke
> coming from a less colored world. Or whatever, actually its just the
> turbulence that is like)

Sorry, I'm a bit lost - are these proposals how marketing guys might
describe the logo, or does this directly to the HIG foundations at [1]?

If you like to know more about the requirements / constraints I had in
mind, I can provide some explanations.

> [1] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/HIG_foundations#Vision

> Sharp corners and flat design could be understood as modern, whilst
> the logo today has round edges (like) and an embossed effect
> (dislike), attributable as old-school. Is this intentional? Or is my
> interpretation wrong.

From the beginning, the basic logo was available in several versions -
e.g. black/white, color, and contemporary (see branding at [2]). So
indeed, the contemporary version (embossed) is clearly outdated now.

Apart from the color / effects, there have been two different versions
of the logo (TDF official and community) - unfortunate to work with.
Addressing this issue allowed to also touch-up the document logo which
is now more "edgy" and has a different aspect ratio - so yes, right
interpretation. Plus improvements in: spacing, alignment, ...

[2] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Marketing/Branding


> BTW: I miss Math in the splash logo. Its color never blended well
> with the others, maybe that was the reason for you to omit it here.

Somehow yes, somehow no. The first question is whether Math is to be
considered a core module as e.g. Writer.

In the initial icon set (see [3] for info and sources) I considered it
to be a supplemental module like Chart - and that led to:
 * LibO Main: Gray (proposed: white on dark green background)
 * LibO Core Module: Color (equals competition)
 * LibO Supplemental Module (e.g. Chart, Macros, ...): Gray + Slight
   Color for module icon (proposed: not yet defined)

So, how to treat the modules? Is there any reference for that? In any
case, I will start working on the symbols for these extra modules...

[3] 
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/LibreOffice_Initial_Icons

Have a nice evening!
Christoph


> 2016-01-24 22:22 GMT+01:00 Christoph Noack <christ...@dogmatux.com>:
> > Hi Heiko,
> > 
> > thanks for the fast and concise feedback :-)
> > 
> > @ all: Since the links didn't survive the formatting in my previous
> > mail, here is another attempt (for overview and user page):
> > 
> > https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/images/2/25/LibreOffice_LogoImp
> > rovements2016_Ideation.png
> > 
> > https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:ChristophNoack/LogoImprove
> > ments2016
> > 
> > 
> > Am Samstag, den 23.01.2016, 23:45 +0100 schrieb Heiko Tietze:
> > > On Saturday, 23 January 2016 23:02:34 CET Christoph Noack wrote:
> > > > What are your initial thoughts, pros, cons, or ideas? [...]
> > >
> > > The logo is perfect, especially in monochrome with the enlarged
> > > character spacing for the TDF letters. 
> > > I'm not a fan of the bright green (the old branding color was
> > nicer)
> > > in particular combined with the white font.
> > 
> > You're talking about the splash, right? Yes, I've spend most of the
> > time iterating the logo variants and (first) module symbols. Then I
> > started building other graphics - e.g. the splash. There I picked a
> > slightly brighter green from the LibO palette. It seems that it is
> > still hard to choose a green tone that is both "fresh" and friendly
> > to
> > the eyes (with regard to color reproduction on different displays).
> > Got
> > it, needs some

[libreoffice-design] Some Ideation on LibreOffice Logo Improvements

2016-01-23 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi all,

I hope 2016 started great for all of you! To me, one topic for this new
year might be the question whether logo refinements would be beneficial
for LibreOffice. That calls for your input :-)

Historically, today's logo was prepared for the initial release of
LibO. To me, it worked quite well – but it also required compromises
(e.g. visual details vs. time constraints, embedded TDF subline for
marketing reasons). One of my early blog posts at [1] provides some
background info. Or, for a better overview, please browse the first
pages of “LibreOffice – The History...” at [2].

Today “LibreOffice” is a quite established brand – and it evolved
technically (e.g. LibreOffice Viewer for Android). So my aims for an
improved logo were:
* Achieve modern style (ideally, be timeless)
* Keep consistency (to established logo/brand)
* Clean-up visual structure (and prepare for various uses-cases)

Overview of the ideation (incl. variants, details and usage examples):
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/images/2/25/LibreOffice_LogoImprove
ments2016_Ideation.png

The page presenting selected graphics (incl. source SVG & references):
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:ChristophNoack/LogoImprovement
s2016

What are your initial thoughts, pros, cons, or ideas? I would really
appreciate your feedback - and your questions. And, if needed, I'll set
up a dedicated whiteboard for that topic ... Thanks!

Cheers,
Christoph

[1] http://luxate.blogspot.de/2010/10/few-days-ago-somebody-wrote-on.ht
ml 

[2] http://www.vignoli.org/ftp/libreoffice-thehistorymaxi.pdf

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Improving printing UX

2015-09-06 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi Cor,

nice to see you as well - has been a long time. So I hope everything is
fine on your side :)

Am Montag, den 31.08.2015, 23:36 +0200 schrieb Cor Nouws:
> Hi Christoph :) - Nice to see you!
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> Christoph Noack wrote on 20-08-15 15:39:
[...]

> > Am Mittwoch, den 19.08.2015, 13:48 + schrieb Katarina Behrens:
> 
> > As far as I remember earlier discussions, it exists for two
> > "reasons":
> >1. Change printer / document print options without actually
> > printing
> >   something (e.g. for getting access to printer trays in page
> > format
> >   settings for non-default printers).
> 
> This still is valid. And IMO in the proper place, in the file menu.

Well, it would be excellent to have recent usage data for that -
otherwise one could check whether it can be moved to the print dialog
(think of something like "Save Settings" functionality). This was
already an idea during printerpullpages-times.

> > > Then, things like tdf#92676 
> > > (https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=92676)
> > > happen --
> > > user goes to printer settings, sets something up, saves and
> > > thinks
> > > this is how his document's going to be printed, but it ain't the
> > > case, because the document/page settings will be used instead.
> 
> As far as I am aware, the most problems by far are indeed with the
> experienced conflict between Page style (size/orientation) and
> Printer
> settings.
> 
> > > There's of course this "use only paper * from printer
> > > preferences"
> > > checkbox that makes it possible to override document settings
> > > with
> > > printer settings, but how many users know about it?
> 
> So, ugly UX hack (sorry for even daring to suggest ;) ):
> In the File > Print dialog, on the first Tab (General) add below the
> list Printer en > details, a button: "..printer settings in stead of
> document/page settings" leading to the fourth tab (Options)
> This
>  - shows where to find the desired behavior (well, not really - see
> Christophs remark below)
>  - indicates that there are document/page settings.
> Then
>  - on the fourth tab (Options) ad a button: "learn more on page
> settings
> and influence on printing) or something like that.
> 
> I know, I'll burn in hell for this ugly suggestion, but... it
> directly
> shows what is needed to solve majority of printing problems.

Well, at least on my computer (LiBO 4.4.5.2 Fedora), the "use printer
settings" changes the printer's page orientation, but it keeps the
document page orientation. Thus, the layout gets messed up.

The rest of the suggestions can help if people are willing to spend
time on understanding how printing works - but I assume most people do
expect that printing should "just work". Hence the proposals (below) to
connect the settings in the different locations in LibO.

> > [...]
> 
> Would be fine for me.
> Mind this allows (via page styles) directing different pages of one 
> file to different printers :)

Oh! I was rather thinking about selecting "the printer" for the
document and thus the different trays of this single printer.
Interesting new use case (just kidding *g*).

> >  * If possible, remove "File -- Print Preview...". Move required
> >functionality (e.g. display facing pages) to the print preview
> > in
> >the print dialog.
> 
> Apart from missing details because the view is small, it totally
> misses
> the options that File > Print preview for Calc.
> So this is not going to work from that side.
> (Possibly there are also performance differences: current preview in
> File > Print <> File > Print Preview ?)

Since we now have all the GUI magic (layout manager), it should be
possible to solve the "view is too small" issue by enlarging the view
and optimizing the layout of the remaining dialog.

Regarding the missing details - that was meant by "move required
functionality" to the print dialog. What helps all the stuff in the
Print Preview, if (in many cases) the screen view won't match the
printed page?


> > === 2. Document Page Settings vs. Printer Page Preferences ===
> > 
> > As the article by Microsoft suggests, we may not address all issues
> > related to page layout. Especially since LibO offers the capability
> > to
> > define numerous page layouts in the document - the printer
> > preferences
> > just offer one definition per print job.
> > 
> > I miss the real needs by users, 
> 
> I guess direct to another tray with same orientation, but different 
> type of paper..


Re: [libreoffice-design] Improving printing UX

2015-08-25 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi Heiko, all!

Thanks for the comments. I feel free to answer your mail in chunks...

Am Dienstag, den 25.08.2015, 13:09 + schrieb Heiko Tietze:
 Hi all,
 
 as an average user or rather Benjamin like beginner I'm quite 
 confused. What I expect is a good preview which feds back what is 
 being sent to the printer. In particular if my footnotes fits onto 
 A4, whether all columns are shown in landscape view, or if my color 
 cartridge is really not used.

I'm with you. LibO falls short here, since e.g.:
 * Page Preview (File menu) does not consider most of the settings
   (e.g. print text as black, brochure mode, notes printing)
 * Print Preview (Printer dialog) is inadequate to check details (e.g.
   default too small, no facing pages view)

Thus my recommendation to remove the first one and integrate missing
features into the latter one.


 In case of letter size I want the printer to either scale my document
 or print as it is. This option belongs to LO: [x] Scale output
 depending on paper size (depends on printer capabilities).

Well, even if that's an option, the user might still be unaware of
different page sizes (in document, in printer). Thus my recommendation
if we find such issues (and e.g. autoscale the printout as done today).


 Landscape vs portrait is just a rotation question to me - sounds
 pretty easy to achieve.

I agree that most stuff should just work out of the box. Still, for
many documents it appears to be difficult. Let's look at how this
information gets to the printer:
1. Document (Page Format) - 2. Printer Settings - 3. Printer Driver

When working on printerpullpages we discovered some issues when
information was provided from 2 to 3 - partly because of the different
feature set of the OS the software runs on. Let's assume the world
moved forward and remaining issues can be fixed. Then ...

... the printer settings still consider one setting: either landscape
or portrait. But, the document can still contain different page
orientation settings. In Writer, page orientation is defined per page
style. In Calc, page orientation per sheet. Thus, a single printer
settings conflicts with that.

Katarina also mentioned tdf#92676 - so it might be helpful for users to
have the document setting temporarily overwritten according to the
user's print range selection.

Hence, my proposal to (at least) extend the given printer setting by
Automatic and align settings of 1 to 3 to make it just work.


 In general I would make the application rather easier to use than
 adding more features and expceptions (by default; there might be
 expert settings hidden somewhere). So removing the additional printer
 settings as well as harmonizing the previews sounds like a good idea.

Plus, your suggestions to improve the printer dialog further :-)


 About save and restore printer settings with the document I guess you
 have in mind that documents are shared and handled on different
 workplaces. So settings made once might not be relevant the next
 time. It's more important to have the printer settings stored for a
 particular workplace, let's say at home I want to save color so
 printing should be done in always b/w. And that might be also the
 reason for the second printer settings although it has to be done in
 the configuration dialog.

I was rather talking about existing functionality that (at least I
thought so) has bugs. So print settings are currently being saved and
loaded - for whatever reason (or use case). At least all related
settings should behave the same.

With regard to the printer settings. As commented in [1], we've
identified that users rather have a few print use cases (thus settings)
per document. A made-up example: Draft when still working on it
(print notes, show placeholder, printer draft mode) vs. Final when
finished (no review markup, good quality). Hence the idea in the
printerpullpages wiki to think about managing pre-defined settings. One
step back, we even hardly support such cases for working on the
document ... but that might be another topic ;-)

Bye,
Christoph

[1] http://pad.documentfoundation.org/p/UX-PrintDialog

 Cheers,
 Heiko.
 
 Am 20.08.2015 15:39:57, schrieb Christoph Noack:
  Hi all!
 
 And, Katarina, great to hear you again :-)
 
 
 Am Mittwoch, den 19.08.2015, 13:48 + schrieb Katarina Behrens:
  Hello world, 
  
  I started this discussion, so it's about time I also contribute
  something to it:
  
   [...]
  
  The main issue I have with status quo is this duality between File
  - Printer settings and File - Print - $some_printer -
  Properties. In other words, settings of the printer and
  document/page-specific settings that can be (and often are)
 entirely
  different.
 
 Some trouble can be avoided, some can't (but nevertheless there are
 ways to better support our users). Since printing is that complex,
 I'd
 like to break down the issues (so please bear with me).
 
 
  An equivalent of File - Printer settings doesn't seem to exist
 in
  MSO

Re: [libreoffice-design] Improving printing UX

2015-08-20 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi again!

Am Mittwoch, den 19.08.2015, 13:59 + schrieb Katarina Behrens:
 ... and totally unrelated to design part of the things ...
 
* Print options (e.g. for Writer) are only partly saved in
  documents and therefore only partly restored. See the
  initial
  analysis at [4] (and [5]). Hasn't been addressed yet (guess
  why :-).
 
 this ^^^ is rather easy to fix. At least for ODF format, with the
 limitation that it'll be stored in a part of ODF container that is
 fully honoured by LibreOffice, but not (or not necessarilly) by other
 ODF consumers/viewers. Didn't investigate other format (OOXML etc.) +
 not so sure if there would even be demand for that. 

I quickly checked a recent ODT document (LibO 4.4.5.2, Fedora 21) and
found two configuration settings missing in the document created 2009.
Thus, it seems that things moved forward (cool!). Nevertheless, I
haven't had the time to check thoroughly.

A the moment, I'd like to wait for further feedback to my other mail
dealing with the print issues.

Have a nice evening!
Christoph

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Improving printing UX

2015-08-20 Thread Christoph Noack
 Hi all!

And, Katarina, great to hear you again :-)


Am Mittwoch, den 19.08.2015, 13:48 + schrieb Katarina Behrens:
 Hello world, 
 
 I started this discussion, so it's about time I also contribute
 something to it:
 
  [...]
 
 The main issue I have with status quo is this duality between File 
 - Printer settings and File - Print - $some_printer -
 Properties. In other words,  settings of the printer and
 document/page-specific settings that can be (and often are) entirely
 different.

Some trouble can be avoided, some can't (but nevertheless there are
ways to better support our users). Since printing is that complex, I'd
like to break down the issues (so please bear with me).


 An equivalent of File - Printer settings doesn't seem to exist in
 MSO, for example (or it does but I'm not so very good at searching).
 When I asked on IRC why it exists in LibO, I was only told that it
 sets up some stuff that can't be set up elsewhere *grin* 

As far as I remember earlier discussions, it exists for two reasons:
   1. Change printer / document print options without actually printing
  something (e.g. for getting access to printer trays in page format
  settings for non-default printers).
   2. Access to document related print settings if OOo (at that time) used
  the print dialog of the OS instead of showing the built-in dialog.
  Similar (but not identical) settings are available via Tools -
  Options - $component - Print.

Word handles/handled that a bit differently. However, also Word runs
into issues if e.g. the document page layout is different to printer
settings. Here is an interesting article by Microsoft:
The printer settings are ignored when you print a Word document
https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/904805


 Then, things like tdf#92676 
 (https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=92676) happen --
 user goes to printer settings, sets something up, saves and thinks
 this is how his document's going to be printed, but it ain't the
 case, because the document/page settings will be used instead.

Thanks for the pointer. I think such use cases need special treatment,
since Calc works technically correct - but users expect different
behavior. Unfortunately, the (usually great logical structure) of LibO
makes the page orientation setting hard to discover.


 There's of course this use only paper * from printer preferences
 checkbox that makes it possible to override document settings with
 printer settings, but how many users know about it?

It rather makes me think of: why should they? I quickly tested the use
case above (changing the page orientation in the printer preferences)
but Calc's output was unusable (because being cut-off).

So, finally, breaking down the issues of printing (omitting OS printing
dialogs)...


=== 1. LibO Printing UI ===

The LibO printing UI is cluttered and distributes (similar)
functionality within different dialogs. Aim: One print preview,
simplified access to print options.

To me, this clean-up would require:
 * Harmonize the document Print Options (e.g. Print text as black)
   from the printing dialog (File -- Print... -- $option) and LibO
   options dialog (
 * Remove File -- Printer Settings Plus, to enable access to non
   -default printer trays, add printer selection capabilities to the
   page layout dialogs (Format -- Page -- Page: Paper Tray).
 * If possible, remove File -- Print Preview Move required
   functionality (e.g. display facing pages) to the print preview in
   the print dialog.


=== 2. Document Page Settings vs. Printer Page Preferences ===

As the article by Microsoft suggests, we may not address all issues
related to page layout. Especially since LibO offers the capability to
define numerous page layouts in the document - the printer preferences
just offer one definition per print job.

I miss the real needs by users, so I haven't a clear solution
preference - just options:

Option #1: Remove page size and portrait settings from the printer's
preferences.
 * Pro: Easy to achieve
 * Con: Things can still go wrong (e.g. printer settings by OS). We need
   to make users aware of issues we can identify (e.g. wrong page format)
   and inform them - see idea of Info Bar in print dialog

Option #2: Extend #1 by access to document page layout options (like
Format -- Page...) via e.g. button
 * Pro: Direct access to document options
 * Con: Different page layouts different to understand

Option #3: Re-arrange print dialog to directly contain and use (e.g.)
page size and portrait settings.
 * Pro: Improved WYSIWYG
 * Con: Technical feasibility? Effort?
 * Details (examples for a UI control for page orientation):
* If the document print range contains only Portrait pages, pre
  -select Portrait.
* If the document print range contains only Landscape pages, pre
  -select Landscape.
* If the document print range contains both Portrait and Landscape
  pages, show Automatic. (Document 

Re: [libreoffice-design] Improving printing UX

2015-08-17 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi all!

Am Montag, den 27.07.2015, 15:19 + schrieb Heiko Tietze:
 To start the discussion I prepared a pad with the basics (needs some
 work though) and two alternative workflows/designs with mockups.
 Please comment the hell out of these ideas (either comment via speech
 bubble icon or just add text). Perhaps it's good to have a hangout
 too...
 
 http://pad.documentfoundation.org/p/UX-PrintDialog

Thanks! I've added some remarks and commented issue #67905.

 I add Christoph as the usability expert of the previous/current
 layout. Initial question is here
 http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/msg07254.html

Well, to me, the described issues are based on / caused by a combination
of (statements based on PPP printerpullpages work - see extensive
documentation at [1]):
  * I was told (by the former developer) that OOo is unable to
directly connect with certain printer settings (e.g. page
format) / information (e.g. printer status). Rationale: Effort
for handling  different platforms and individual printer
(drivers).
  * Due to LibO's complexity and complexity of printing in general
(e.g. handling page style related page settings incl. printer
tray VS. single separate printer setting) we run into a number
of issues. First ideas to address these issues (e.g. inform the
user) have been deferred/altered due to developer time
constraints - see proposals [2] and [3].
  * Due to limited resources, the harmonization of different printer
related features has been (guess what, sigh) deferred. For
example:
  * File - Printer Settings still exists (looking and
behaving totally different).
  * Tools - Options... - LibreOffice - Print Options
  * Print options (e.g. for Writer) are only partly saved in
documents and therefore only partly restored. See the initial
analysis at [4] (and [5]). Hasn't been addressed yet (guess
why :-).
  * Add some bugs (e.g. on my system, specifying A3 in the page
style, using the printer setting A4, finally results in
Letter shown above the preview in the printer dialog)

All adds up to a messy printing experience for quite some use cases
(although I still think that PPP was a step in the right direction).

 Am 19.07.2015 23:28:56, schrieb Thorsten Behrens:
  Heiko Tietze wrote:
   What's your schedule, Katarina? Do we have as much time as the prior
   art took?
   
  Let's put it that way - the current attention of that topic could be
  used for some quick iterative improvements. ;)

Some quick improvements will help, but I think we have to discuss how
LibO handles printing UI wise (the print dialog being only one part in
the game). I'm happy to add some proposals (after getting some sleep) -
just tell me if there is still interest.

Cheers,
Christoph

[1] Printerpullpages Overview
https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Printerpullpages

[2] Idea for showing print related issues
https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Printerpullpages/ContextualInformation 

[3] Idea for showing page size issues
https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/File:2009-12-06_PrintingDialog_Idea_ShowPageSize1.png

[4] Print settings stored in files
https://wiki.openoffice.org/w/images/3/3e/Current_PrintingOptions_SettingsInDocumentFiles.odt

[5] Dialog options / controls overview
https://wiki.openoffice.org/w/images/e/e2/Current_Dialogs_ListOfAllPrintDialogElements.ods


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Re: [libreoffice-design] feedback on #91781

2015-06-12 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi Klaus-Jürgen, hi all!

Am Mittwoch, den 10.06.2015, 23:07 +0200 schrieb K-J LibreOffice:
 Hi Christoph,
 Am 08.06.2015 um 23:58 schrieb Christoph Noack:
  Hi all,
 
 Nice to see you're back.

Have I been away? 

Just kidding. Thanks for the kind words ... I recently started (and
still am) looking into current Design team stuff.

  I hope you don't if I also add some thoughts...
 
 Your thoughts are worth enough to listen to.
 Maybe you should tell the new guys who you are.

Well, I was one of the UX Team guys who worked on LibreOffice /
OpenOffice.org. With regard to the latter, I really enjoyed the
collaboration with the Sun UX Team at that time - hence my explanations
about their work.

Cheers,
Christoph


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Re: [libreoffice-design] Cleaning up the default toolbars

2012-11-25 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi everyone!

Am Samstag, den 24.11.2012, 17:27 +0100 schrieb Regina Henschel:
 Hi Mirek,
 
 Mirek M. schrieb:
  Hi everyone,
  Now that we want to bring a new icon scheme to LibreOffice and make large
  icons the default, it'd be good to make the top toolbars a bit more compact
  as well.
  In particular, I was thinking we could condense the standard toolbar enough
  to share a row with the formatting toolbar.
 
 I don't think that it is possible, because the style and font drop-down 
 lists are rather wide. But there are indeed some candidates of icons, 
 that can be dropped totally. Unfortunately different users will consider 
 different icons as being unimportant.

[...]

Some kind reminder that there has been some research work within the
Renaissance project at OpenOffice.org. At least there is some indication
what features are less used than others - and I'm sure some of those
features can be removed without to much headaches (when thinking about
the more average user).

Here is an example: http://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Tracking_results

Personally, I think that these data is - despite the improvements /
changes made in LibO - still valid for LibreOffice. At least, it's a
starting point ...

Cheers,
Christoph


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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Writer] Header/footer deletion from the UI

2012-10-28 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi everyone!

Am Sonntag, den 28.10.2012, 02:34 -0600 schrieb Adolfo Jayme Barrientos:
 I agree, the deletion alert is unnecessary. If the user wants to
 recover the header, they should be able to do so by using the “Undo”
 functionality.

Yes, but it has been kept, because a major problem hasn't been solved
since years ... please see:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboard/Writer_SpecialIndicators#Known_Issues

If anybody could adress this issue first, that would be great!

Kind regards,
Christoph


 On Sun, Oct 28, 2012 at 2:18 AM, Jean-Francois Nifenecker
 jean-francois.nifenec...@laposte.net wrote:
  Hello,
 
  (not sure whether this goes to design or ux, so I'm flooding both :)
 
  LibO version 3.6.4.0+ (Build ID: 2f42a6c)
  Xubuntu 12.04
 
  Writer interface - Using the header (resp. footer) option in the UI
 
  If I ask to delete an existing header using the Header button, I'm
  receiving a confirmation dialog informing that the header contents will be
  lost.
 
  I feel that this behaviour is interfeering with the user workflow. IMO, the
  header deletion should be immediate (if the users asks for that, of course
  he knows that the contents will disappear!) so that the user can continue
  working on his document. But, of course, this operation should be undoable
  (which it is not currently).
 
  Thanks for your comments,
  --
  Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux
  ___
  Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list
  libreoffice-ux-adv...@lists.freedesktop.org
  http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
 



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Re: [libreoffice-design] Infobar

2012-09-12 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi Mirek,

here some pointers to the past ;-)

Already rather complete description by the OOo UX Team (2010):
http://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/User_Experience/Projects/NonModalMessageSystem

... including some more drafty mockups here:
http://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/User_Experience/Projects/NonModalMessageSystem_Drafts


Contextual Information Bar (designed for dialogs, from 2010):
http://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Printerpullpages/ContextualInformation

... directly to the example mockup for the printing dialog:
http://wiki.openoffice.org/w/images/6/6c/PrintDialog_ContextualInformationBar_GeneralDesign.png


Direct Manipulation Snippets (idea from 2008 or so)
http://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/User_Experience/DirectManipulationSnippets#Same_Functionality_For_The_Document


Cheers,
Christoph

Am Mittwoch, den 12.09.2012, 10:38 +0200 schrieb Mirek M.:
 Hi everyone,
 I've been told that we can have an infobar element in VCL if it's needed.
 The design part is up to us. I've started a whiteboard at
 https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Infobar, feel free
 to add your proposals.
 



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Re: [libreoffice-design] UX@LibreOffice Conference in Berlin?

2012-08-21 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi everyone!

Some update from my side concerning the LibreOffice Conference - I'm
really sorry that I will miss to meet you guys. Unfortunately (to me),
our company organized some UX workshops in Italy during the time of the
conference. Thus, I'll at least consume some spaghetti whilst hoping
that you'll enjoy your stay in Berlin.

Cheers,
Christoph

Am Dienstag, den 29.05.2012, 21:25 +0200 schrieb Christoph Noack:
 Hi Björn!
 
 Am Dienstag, den 29.05.2012, 13:00 +0200 schrieb Björn Balazs:
  So: who is coming to the LibreOffice Conference in Berlin? How do you like 
  the 
  idea of proposing a usability / ux track for the conference? Who would be 
  interested in presenting something there?
 
 I'll try to be there ... :-)
 
 A usability or UX track would be great, although I'm not sure whether I
 can prepare something big. Personally, I think a few workshops for
 doing some UX planning / design together would be nice as well.
 
 What do the others think?
 
 Cheers,
 Christoph
 
 PS: http://conference.libreoffice.org/
 
 



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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Making Navigator show all tabs all the time

2012-08-18 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi all!

Concerning the navigator, you might be interested in (commenting) the
feature requests:

Bug 36308 - [UI]Change behaviour for tree view on Writer's Navigator
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=36308

and

Bug 36309 - [UI]Better design / interface for Navigator's tree-view 
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=36309

Cheers,
Christoph

Am Freitag, den 17.08.2012, 12:57 -0700 schrieb libcub:
 I've just been learning LO Writer, which I am liking a lot. But being able to
 set the Navigator to show all levels of headings as the default is a
 make-or-break feature for me. I'm not a programmer, but am happy to help in
 other ways--testing, documentation, etc.
 
 
 megafrog wrote
  
  When I used OpenOffice I liked that I could use the Navigator to show
  every tab, every heading level, all at once.  It was like I could see my
  project at a glance and VERY useful for a lot of my work.
  
  Now that I'm using LibreOffice the Navigator seems to require a click on
  each + symbol, no matter how many levels of  headings I tell it to show.
  Every single time I open a document it's the same deal.  I still keep an
  OpenOffice.org install on my computer just for this feature alone.
  
  I want to make it more like the way I used Open Office's navigator, but I
  guess that means a feature request.  I am not a programmer but it
  shouldn't be hard since the OOo code already had done it the way I like
  it.  How can I formalize a feature request?  This list seemed like the
  closest place to do so.  Thanks!
  
 
 
 
 
 --
 View this message in context: 
 http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Making-Navigator-show-all-tabs-all-the-time-tp4000636p4002117.html
 Sent from the Design mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
 



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Re: [libreoffice-design] Design ethos

2012-06-16 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi Mirek, all!

Am Donnerstag, den 14.06.2012, 00:06 +0200 schrieb Mirek M.:
 On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 11:40 PM, Christoph Noack 
 christ...@dogmatux.comwrote:
  Am Dienstag, den 12.06.2012, 15:34 +0200 schrieb Björn Balazs:
...
   I think we really should ask ourselves: What is the problem? What do we
  want
   to reach? instead of generally argueing for or against the suggested
  (and
   obviously proven) approach from Mozilla.
 
  Yes, thanks for the reminder ... and thanks for the pre-formulated
  proposals.
 
   I think there have been two possible goals deriving out of this
  discussion so
   far:
  
   1. Educate developers in terms of making them aware of the importance of
   Usability / UX
 
  From my experience during the last months, this is less needed at the
  moment. Why? To me ...
   * the core developers do ping us regularly
   * they provide means to basically follow their development (e.g.
 daily builds, commit messages, ... provided for QA, Design and
 others)
   * the suggest new developers to get our feedback on their ideas
 
  So, unless we are able to handle _all_ their requests quite fast and
  accurately, there is no need to further promote this topic. Instead, we
  should try to answer all the (open) requests on e.g. the ux-advise list
  - or help with classifying / resolving Design related bugzilla issues. I
  mean ... before asking for more requests we might not be able to handle
  properly.
 
  (Well, I know that I've missed to invest time there as well.)
 
   2. Provide a structure to us designers to produce consitent UIs and
  workflows.
 
  That is the one I'd focus on (referring to the consistent UI) ... and
  there is plenty to do.
 
  Any other opinions?
 
 
 I mostly agree with this.
 However, the point of the principles is not only to produce consistent UIs
 and workflows, but also to be able to evaluate and improve upon our designs
 using a standard set of guidelines.
 If we discover faults or unnecessary vagueness within the principles, which
 we no doubt will, we should adjust the principles accordingly.

I do fully agree.

To me, the most important part is to consider that all the principles
are valid at the same time - although being sometimes contradictory. So
the actual design problem varies the importance / influence of each of
the principles. Consequently, these aren't strict rules, but ... as you
said ... guidelines.

 I hope that it's alright if I integrate the principles into our workflow
 (with a simple Designs will be checked against our design principles.
 line).

I'm basically fine with it - how about Design proposals will be
evaluated according our design principles.

More proposals ...

How about renaming the Ethos page [1] to Design Principles (seems
simpler to me, since the page itself talks about principles).

And, I'm not sure if we really need the tags. How about renaming them to
make them more human readable (e.g. ux-discovery - Discovery
Principle).

(If you give me a go, then I'll update the page accordingly.


Are there additional thoughts with regard to Björn's question?


Thanks to you both for this first step ...

Cheers,
Christoph

[1] http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Ethos


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Re: [libreoffice-design] Design ethos

2012-06-13 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi Björn, Mirek, all!

Am Dienstag, den 12.06.2012, 15:34 +0200 schrieb Björn Balazs:
 Hi all,
 
 thanks for picking up this really important discussion. Christoph I think the 
 examples you gave are really great.
 
 I think we really should ask ourselves: What is the problem? What do we want 
 to reach? instead of generally argueing for or against the suggested (and 
 obviously proven) approach from Mozilla.

Yes, thanks for the reminder ... and thanks for the pre-formulated
proposals.

 I think there have been two possible goals deriving out of this discussion so 
 far:
 
 1. Educate developers in terms of making them aware of the importance of 
 Usability / UX

From my experience during the last months, this is less needed at the
moment. Why? To me ...
  * the core developers do ping us regularly
  * they provide means to basically follow their development (e.g.
daily builds, commit messages, ... provided for QA, Design and
others)
  * the suggest new developers to get our feedback on their ideas

So, unless we are able to handle _all_ their requests quite fast and
accurately, there is no need to further promote this topic. Instead, we
should try to answer all the (open) requests on e.g. the ux-advise list
- or help with classifying / resolving Design related bugzilla issues. I
mean ... before asking for more requests we might not be able to handle
properly.

(Well, I know that I've missed to invest time there as well.)

 2. Provide a structure to us designers to produce consitent UIs and workflows.

That is the one I'd focus on (referring to the consistent UI) ... and
there is plenty to do.

Any other opinions?

Cheers,
Christoph


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Re: [libreoffice-design] Design ethos

2012-06-10 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi Björn, hi Mirek!

I had to make up my mind concerning this thread and also the article
that was originally referred to. So here is what I'm thinking about ...

Am Mittwoch, den 06.06.2012, 20:45 +0200 schrieb Björn Balazs:
 Am Mittwoch, 6. Juni 2012, 19:46:09 schrieb Mirek M.:
[...]
 Developers encountering these keywords likely won't have any additional 
 interface design training, so it is important that each heuristic is very 
 clearly defined with specific examples and detailed explanations. 
 Additionally, allowing developers to view all of the bugs in the software 
 marked as the same type of issue, both current and resolved, serves as an 
 effective way for them to further learn about the heuristic.
 
 Therefor I understand these principles as guidelines for developers to become 
 aware of UX, perhaps learn a tiny bit. Opposite I do understand something 
 like 
 the design ethos as rules for us - experienced designers and UX 
 professionals. 
 So, I think the sugested rules are good for teaching developers, but I think 
 this is not what we want to do - ?questionmark?

I understand it the same way - and I found another thing a bit strange.
The article is called Quantifying Usability although it deals with
heuristic evaluations. The aim of those evaluations is usually to
detect interaction design issues - but not to let users rate / quantify
those issues (having statistically relevant information). So, where is
the quantification?

In the given case, interaction experts (not users) do tag the issues
using their level of experience and (domain) knowledge. So finally, you
can generate a nice statistic of known issues within your system - maybe
that also helps within the project to address the most important (here:
highest number) of issues in advance.

But that doesn't solve the issue what it really means if a dialog
violates e.g. ux-minimalism - you need to know the users
characteristics and their tasks. So for a complex product like
LibreOffice (assuming that its okay that it supports a variety of
tasks), some users may find a dialog overwhelming whilst other users may
miss lots of information. The question is - which main target group will
make use of this dialog ...

So yes, these characteristics might guide us - but you cannot apply
these to serve as strict rules. You may see this in other places as
well, e.g.:
a) Ten Usability Heuristics
http://www.useit.com/papers/heuristic/heuristic_list.html

b) ISO 9241-110 Dialogue Principles
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_9241#ISO_9241-110

By the way, the linked descriptions fit a bit better from my
point-of-view.

  On Wed, Jun 6, 2012 at 6:50 PM, Björn Balazs b...@lazs.de wrote:
   I think this is a general problem with general guidelines as they are
   outlined
   in the mentioned article as well. Either they are so abstract that nobody
   would reject them - but then it is also hard to derive any consequence out
   of
   them --- Or they are specific but exceptions are the rule.
  
  With the ideal design principles, exceptions would never be allowed.
  Mozilla's principles may not be perfect, but they're quite good and we
  could fix their bugs as we encounter them.
  Could you point out specific points that you don't feel good about?

I'm keeping the text above, since it fits quite well to my answer ...

[...]

But since we talked about principles - there are some other open
questions. Answering these questions might (at the very moment) help a
lot to provide a consistent experience to our users.

Some examples:
  * Given equal tasks - do we aim for consistency within the
different LibreOffice applications, or do we want to optimize it
for each application (affects: suitability for learning and self
descriptiveness VS. suitability for the task)
Example: drawing behavior

  * Given the fact of different platforms - do we want to have
consistency across the platforms or do we want to comply to the
platform (e.g. Human Interaction Guidelines). The former makes
LibreOffice very predictable, although it might not fit to the
platform. The latter heavily affects suitability for learning
and - of course - design and development effort.
Example: When (re-)designing, do we address: Linux (most
developers), or Windows (major user base when looking at
OOo/AOO/LibO), or Android (emerging market), or ...

  * Given the fact of major competitors - do we want to adapt the
LibreOffice behavior with regard to competitors? Today, many
users / organizations want to switch to a free (costless)
alternative without having (much) learning effort.
Example: Some of Calc's good and consistent behavior is
currently changed to conform to Excel's behavior (e.g.
copy-and-paste behavior). That makes new users happy, but is
problematic for today's users.

  * ...

To me, these are the more urgent issues 

Re: [libreoffice-design] Design ethos

2012-06-10 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi Mirek, all!

Thanks for your quick response! It's already a bit late, but I'd like to
answer now - tomorrow, I suppose, my day job will eat up all the given
time ;-)

Before I start: The more often I read your mail, the more I'm convinced
that some of the potential misunderstandings are caused by differences
in terminology (read: same terms mean different things to us) and
procedure with regard to HMI development. So please allow me to add some
more my-point-of-view ...

Am Sonntag, den 10.06.2012, 19:53 +0200 schrieb Mirek M.:
 Hi Christoph,
 
 On Sun, Jun 10, 2012 at 2:38 PM, Christoph Noack 
 christ...@dogmatux.comwrote:
 
  Hi Björn, hi Mirek!
 
  I had to make up my mind concerning this thread and also the article
  that was originally referred to. So here is what I'm thinking about ...
 
  Am Mittwoch, den 06.06.2012, 20:45 +0200 schrieb Björn Balazs:
   Am Mittwoch, 6. Juni 2012, 19:46:09 schrieb Mirek M.:
  [...]
   Developers encountering these keywords likely won't have any additional
   interface design training, so it is important that each heuristic is very
   clearly defined with specific examples and detailed explanations.
   Additionally, allowing developers to view all of the bugs in the software
   marked as the same type of issue, both current and resolved, serves as an
   effective way for them to further learn about the heuristic.
  
   Therefor I understand these principles as guidelines for developers to
  become
   aware of UX, perhaps learn a tiny bit. Opposite I do understand
  something like
   the design ethos as rules for us - experienced designers and UX
  professionals.
   So, I think the sugested rules are good for teaching developers, but I
  think
   this is not what we want to do - ?questionmark?
 
  I understand it the same way - and I found another thing a bit strange.
  The article is called Quantifying Usability although it deals with
  heuristic evaluations. The aim of those evaluations is usually to
  detect interaction design issues - but not to let users rate / quantify
  those issues (having statistically relevant information). So, where is
  the quantification?
 
  In the given case, interaction experts (not users) do tag the issues
  using their level of experience and (domain) knowledge. So finally, you
  can generate a nice statistic of known issues within your system - maybe
  that also helps within the project to address the most important (here:
  highest number) of issues in advance.
 
  But that doesn't solve the issue what it really means if a dialog
  violates e.g. ux-minimalism - you need to know the users
  characteristics and their tasks. So for a complex product like
  LibreOffice (assuming that its okay that it supports a variety of
  tasks), some users may find a dialog overwhelming whilst other users may
  miss lots of information. The question is - which main target group will
  make use of this dialog ...
 
 
 The minimalism principle states that interfaces should be as simple as
 possible, where simple is meant as not complicated, not as as
 featureless as possible.

That sounds great, indeed. But when designing products one is usually
faced to the problem that it's impossible to add (meaningful) features
without any increase of the complexity of the product. Although one user
group want to have these features (because it boosts their efficiency),
other users might find the resulting user interface not simple.

So, as Bjoern already pointed out, balancing what's simple and what is
not featureless requires a deep understanding of our users' needs. And
these needs vary a lot ... depending on their knowledge and their tasks.

I've documented a related issue some years ago (Myths about UX):
http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/User_Experience/Myths_about_UX#Advanced_functionality_doesn.27t_hurt_-_newcomers_just_won.27t_use_it.21

 As an example, compare Firefox's separate search box and address bar and
 Chrome's omnibox. In Firefox, you can search using both the address bar and
 the omnibox, which is unnecessary redundancy. In this case, Chrome is more
 minimalistic, yet it doesn't skimp on any features found within Firefox.

It does sound like Chrome is superior to Firefox, right?

But how do we know that the Chrome decision is the right one? Maybe ...
  * Maybe the majority of people expects to have a separate search
field - like in other programs, too (Adobe Acrobat).
  * Or user tests showed that people are unable to discover the
search functionality - so they always enter www.google.com and
then start searching. (So ux-minimalism hurts ux-discovery as
also Mr. Nielson points out in the article you've referred to).
  * Maybe the Firefox decision is an intermediate solution until
they could convert all users to use only the Awesome Bar for
all web related tasks. 

I can provide further guesses, but the basic message is - defining
whether the goal of ux-minimalism is achieved

Re: [libreoffice-design] New Whiteboard Proposal Comments Ruler Control

2012-06-09 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi Mirek, all!

Am Samstag, den 09.06.2012, 00:39 +0200 schrieb Mirek M.:
 On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 11:54 PM, Christoph Noack 
 christ...@dogmatux.comwrote:
  Am Freitag, den 08.06.2012, 23:33 +0200 schrieb Mirek M.:
   On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 9:10 PM, Christoph Noack christ...@dogmatux.com
  wrote:
  ...
there has been some nice ruler rework recently [1], and so I got a
friendly ping about what had happened to the so called Comments Ruler
Control I've proposed years ago when working on the Writer notes [2].
   
I've started a (private) Whiteboard

[...]

  Any further feedback? (Before moving the page?)
 
 Looks good.

Mirek, thanks for having a look and thanks for the guidance! So I've ...
  * added a link on the Whiteboard to this discussion thread
  * moved the page to the Whiteboards area (see [1])
  * added the Whiteboard to the Call for Proposals section
  * added a link to the new Whiteboard to Bug 38246 (the Easy hack
bug for hacking on that issue)

[1] New location for the Whiteboard Comments Ruler Control:
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Comments_Ruler_Control

Cheers,
Christoph


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[libreoffice-design] New Whiteboard Proposal Comments Ruler Control

2012-06-08 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi everybody,

there has been some nice ruler rework recently [1], and so I got a
friendly ping about what had happened to the so called Comments Ruler
Control I've proposed years ago when working on the Writer notes [2].

I've started a (private) Whiteboard and updated the description and
behavior to conform with the refreshed rulers - and the overall more
simplistic visual design in LibO:
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:ChristophNoack/Temporary_Work_Space/CommentsRulerControl

Question to the Design Team: Any objections to move that to the official
Whiteboard area? (The last time I've looked at the Whiteboards page it
mentioned: Don't create a whiteboard without discussing it with the
design team first.).

I did not follow the discussion too closely during the last weeks with
regard to the workflow - but I guess accepting the proposal starts the
proposal phase, right?


Cheers,
Christoph

[1]
http://artax.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~kendy/blog/archives/permalinks/2012-05-17T10_58_20.html

[2] http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Notes2


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Re: [libreoffice-design] New Whiteboard Proposal Comments Ruler Control

2012-06-08 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi Mirek, hi all!

Am Freitag, den 08.06.2012, 23:33 +0200 schrieb Mirek M.:
 On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 9:10 PM, Christoph Noack christ...@dogmatux.comwrote:
...
  there has been some nice ruler rework recently [1], and so I got a
  friendly ping about what had happened to the so called Comments Ruler
  Control I've proposed years ago when working on the Writer notes [2].
 
  I've started a (private) Whiteboard
...
  https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:ChristophNoack/Temporary_Work_Space/CommentsRulerControl


 The summary needs to present a simple goal the whiteboard should
 accomplish (such as Make comments more accessible). The summary should be
 generic enough so that there are as few restrictions as possible for
 solving the underlying problem (that comments are hard to access) -- there
 are ways to solve it without a button in the ruler area.
 The contents of the summary you currently present concerns your own
 proposal, and therefore should be presented under your proposal's section
 instead.

Modified the whiteboard accordingly - although I find it a bit
superfluous, since the developers asked for a description of the
Comments Ruler Control. On the other hand, maybe it serves as an
inspiration for others to bring up great proposals ... let's see :-)

Any further feedback? (Before moving the page?)

Cheers,
Christoph


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Re: [libreoffice-design] Document Saved indicator

2012-05-31 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi Alex, all!

Am Mittwoch, den 30.05.2012, 16:42 +0200 schrieb Alexander Wilms:
 actually, the save icon in the top toolbar should be enough, don't you 
 think? It's greyed out if there's nothing to save and makes the 
 indicator superfluous.

Well, that was the case some versions ago - then the current behavior
(save icon is always active) has been introduced. Reason: There has been
customer feedback targeted at the Sun OOo UX Team that people wish to
press that button at any time - just to be sure that the document is
really saved. So here its not about real logic, but about people to feel
safe.

Concerning using of the asterisk in the title bar - also that issue has
been discussed from time to time. From my (personal) point-of-view, this
indicator does not reveal its meaning clearly. Almost the same is true
for the current status bar indicator - but of course it's just there
because of the cool TDF symbolism ;-)

So, finally, if there is a need to further cleanup the status bar, then
I'd propose to go with (unsaved) instead of the asterisk for the title
bar. Example for unsaved changes:
Strategy Document (unsaved) - LibreOffice Writer

Of course there are plenty of alternatives - introducing stuff like a
proxy icons (similar to Mac OS X), or extending the Save Icon by an
own indicator. Or ...

Cheers,
Christoph


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Re: [libreoffice-design] Document Saved indicator

2012-05-31 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi Mirek, all!

Am Donnerstag, den 31.05.2012, 20:29 +0200 schrieb Mirek M.:
 2012/5/31 Christoph Noack christ...@dogmatux.com
  Am Mittwoch, den 30.05.2012, 16:42 +0200 schrieb Alexander Wilms:
   actually, the save icon in the top toolbar should be enough, don't you
   think? It's greyed out if there's nothing to save and makes the
   indicator superfluous.
 
  Well, that was the case some versions ago - then the current behavior
  (save icon is always active) has been introduced. Reason: There has been
  customer feedback targeted at the Sun OOo UX Team that people wish to
  press that button at any time - just to be sure that the document is
  really saved. So here its not about real logic, but about people to feel
  safe.
 
 This is only a setting, and it's disabled by default (at least on my
 machine).

Ah, didn't know that. Thanks!

Do you know why this is a setting at all? Do we alter the behavior
dependent on the platform?

 Out of interest, could you point me to the feedback you mentioned?

Nope, sorry. It was directly targeted at the OOo UX team (maybe even
part of their usability studies). I had some private conversations where
they mentioned it (if I remember well enough).

  So, finally, if there is a need to further cleanup the status bar, then
  I'd propose to go with (unsaved) instead of the asterisk for the title
  bar. Example for unsaved changes:
  Strategy Document (unsaved) - LibreOffice Writer
 
 Fine with me, as long as it only happens if the allow to save document
 even when the document is not modified setting is on.

Here I don't fully understand your rationale - I'd go for consistency
similar to the document symbol in the status bar (always there).

  Of course there are plenty of alternatives - introducing stuff like a
  proxy icons (similar to Mac OS X), or extending the Save Icon by an
  own indicator. Or ...

 To be honest, I feel like this is too much complication to satisfy a very
 small fraction of the userbase, at a cost to the general userbase. Every
 other application I know disables Save when the file is saved, and
 there's not any consumer backlash there.

Well, I have no strong opinion here - especially if anybody comes up
with a decent solution ;-) The point is: adding an asterisk doesn't mean
much, the string (unsaved) eats some space and also misses the locus
of attention of the user, ...

Cheers,
Christoph


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Re: [libreoffice-design] UX@LibreOffice Conference in Berlin?

2012-05-29 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi Björn!

Am Dienstag, den 29.05.2012, 13:00 +0200 schrieb Björn Balazs:
 So: who is coming to the LibreOffice Conference in Berlin? How do you like 
 the 
 idea of proposing a usability / ux track for the conference? Who would be 
 interested in presenting something there?

I'll try to be there ... :-)

A usability or UX track would be great, although I'm not sure whether I
can prepare something big. Personally, I think a few workshops for
doing some UX planning / design together would be nice as well.

What do the others think?

Cheers,
Christoph

PS: http://conference.libreoffice.org/


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REMINDER: IRC discussion is now! :-) (was: Re: [libreoffice-design] LibreOffice Design team IRC chat)

2012-03-24 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi everyone,

this is a kind reminder that we are about to start the design team chat
now. If you missed it - we are meeting at the #libreoffice-design
channel on IRC. Currently there are alexanderW, IvanFilho and myself.

Hope to see you ...

Cheers,
Christoph

Am Donnerstag, den 22.03.2012, 23:53 +0100 schrieb Mirek M.:
 I propose we have the first meeting this Saturday at 18:00 GMT, since
 that's the time that most of us will be available.
 Let's use the #libreoffice-design channel, so that we don't disturb the
 #libreoffice channel. OK?
 



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Design Team Chat, IRC Log 2012-03-24 (was: Re: [libreoffice-design] LibreOffice chat)

2012-03-24 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi all!

Am Samstag, den 24.03.2012, 21:21 +0100 schrieb Mirek M.:
 We just finished this week's IRC chat ...

Yep, and here is the log:
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Meetings/2012-03-24

Sorry for the bad log output, but the wiki keeps complaining that I want
to send spam if I use the HTML export of my chat client. However, I hope
it helps.

Thanks for everyone who attended - and special thanks to Mirek who
organized that chat!

Cheers,
Christoph


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Re: [libreoffice-design] Wanted! Moderators for this mailing list :-)

2012-03-20 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi Mirek, Kévin, Jay!

Wow, thanks a lot for your really quick (and positive) replies
concerning the moderator question. Since you three answered mostly
independently, I'll answer commenting my own mail ... :-)

Personally, I think having three moderators in total is very fine for
this kind of list (medium volume). One of the reasons is, that every
moderator will be noticed about pending mails ... so work might be
doubled in rare cases. So I propose (please object if you think that is
wrong) to add Mirek and Kévin (being the first two who replied). Jay,
thanks a lot for your offer as well!

The next steps are: I will send a mail with your names attached to the
moderator list. One one the admins will take care that you get added -
then you will get mails from the mailing list system containing the
message of the (unsubscribed) poster. If everything is clean (subject,
poster address, content - if readable - because there are sometimes
strange encoding issues) then you reply to this mail to let it go
through. It would also be helpful to send a mail to the poster to tell
him that he isn't subscribed - so he won't notice any replies to his
mail (because these will go to the mailing list only).

Furthermore, you'll get added to the internal moderators list. Very
rarely, it is meant to inform you about updates / or you might get in
touch with other moderators.

Again, thanks for joining!

Christoph

Am Donnerstag, den 15.03.2012, 21:40 +0100 schrieb Christoph Noack:
 Hi everyone,
 
 I'm currently too lazy to send mails to this list, but others are not
 (and this is great to see) ;-) As a consequence, it happens that
 non-subscribed posters do send mails to this list - those mails need to
 wait in the moderation queue.
 
 Since I've noticed that I'm not on my computer every day, help for the
 moderation stuff is highly appreciated. After Bernhard left, I'm the
 only one moderating those mails ... and therefore some kind of single
 point-of-failure.
 
 So is there anybody willing to jump in as well? I think one or two
 people joining would be cool!
 
 Currently we have approx. 5 ... 10 mails / week - so no worry about the
 workload. Quite the opposite - if mails get through quicker and posters
 are informed earlier about the required subscription, it really eases
 communication. And moderating is rather simple - the mailing list system
 sends a mail and asks for a reply. If send, it gets through, and if you
 don't reply, then ... okay you've got the point.
 
 Thanks! Cheers,
 Christoph
 
 



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Re: [libreoffice-design] LibreOffice Design team IRC chat

2012-03-20 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi all!

Cool idea to organize that IRC meeting ... but first, here are some
other thoughts I've had when reading your mail.


Am Montag, den 19.03.2012, 20:46 +0100 schrieb Mirek M.:
 2012/3/19 Stefan Knorr (Astron) heinzless...@googlemail.com
 
  Hi Mirek,
 
   I've had a conversation with Alexander Wilms on IRC today and we've
  decided
   that it would be productive if the whole Design team could meet on the
  IRC
   to discuss relevant LibreOffice UI/design topics. We could start with the
 
  Actually, it would be a great idea if we could meet on IRC on a
  weekly/bi-weekly basis. Maybe name it something like Let's talk
  design. (which conveniently abbreviates to Ltd.) and set (a)
  topic(s) before we meet. How do you feel about that?

Looking back, the OOo IRC meetings have been quite nice ... although
usually only few people joined. Here is some stuff to get an idea what
worked well:
http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Renaissance:Status_Meetings

[...]
  Secondly, there already is a Whiteboard on the topic that Christoph
  started some time ago with many pointers to bugs etc – see [1]. I
  guess we should use that.
 
 
 OK.
 The page looks like it needs a bit of clean-up, though -- for example, why
 are suggestions listed under Current state, and what is the point of
 Further information?

Oh, thanks for referring to this Whiteboard - it really needs some
cleanup, since some people already started to work on some issues (maybe
causing other issues *g*) - that's documented in Bugzilla.

Concerning suggestions under Current state - I seem to miss them.
Maybe you're referring to the evaluation of the today's behavior.
Proposals and such stuff is handled in the Draft Area.

The point of Further information was to have a section to add stuff
that fits nowhere else - but I never had such info, so it can go. 

 
  Thirdly, often times we miss the basis for what we do here. With
  everyone going into the direction of touch-friendliness here, it's
  easy to steer LibreOffice into even larger inconsistency. What we
  need, clearly is some sort of HIG, else we might actually make
  LibreOffice worse. This is not to say that we need a completely new HIG,
  but we need to
  either copy/paste the pieces we like from others (it still need s to
  be conherent) or need to adapt a pre-existing one that covers what we
  need.
 
 
 OK. I started a wiki page for it [1]. It's a good topic for our upcoming
 IRC chat -- we'll put items in the Tentative design section only after
 we've discussed them.
[...]

 [1]
 https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Human_Interface_Guidelines

Some time ago, I made such a list on my personal page - would it be
helpful to move the table there?
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:ChristophNoack/Temporary_Work_Space

Cheers,
Christoph



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[libreoffice-design] Wanted! Moderators for this mailing list :-)

2012-03-15 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi everyone,

I'm currently too lazy to send mails to this list, but others are not
(and this is great to see) ;-) As a consequence, it happens that
non-subscribed posters do send mails to this list - those mails need to
wait in the moderation queue.

Since I've noticed that I'm not on my computer every day, help for the
moderation stuff is highly appreciated. After Bernhard left, I'm the
only one moderating those mails ... and therefore some kind of single
point-of-failure.

So is there anybody willing to jump in as well? I think one or two
people joining would be cool!

Currently we have approx. 5 ... 10 mails / week - so no worry about the
workload. Quite the opposite - if mails get through quicker and posters
are informed earlier about the required subscription, it really eases
communication. And moderating is rather simple - the mailing list system
sends a mail and asks for a reply. If send, it gets through, and if you
don't reply, then ... okay you've got the point.

Thanks! Cheers,
Christoph


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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Better branding (was: Re: Towards useful icon themes)

2012-03-01 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi Ape,

I just saw this conversation and like to jump in ... I was one of the
guys who created the icons initially. Maybe I can shed some light on the
decisions. By the way, I don't know whether anyone mentioned that page:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/LibreOffice_Initial_Icons

There, you find lots of information why we used this or that ...

Am Donnerstag, den 01.03.2012, 08:27 -0800 schrieb ape:
 Hi Astron,
 
 A.1 I agree, but the Chart had a green frame in the
 OpenOffice.org_Galaxy_ver.3.0.

Also targets A.2, A.3.

The basic decision we've made was to only highlight the most essential
document types and that led to only few colored application icons. The
main goal is to avoid too much mixture of color (frame) and additional
icons (the small graphic inside). A sub-goal is to establish the native
TDF / LibreOffice symbol - for many people TDF and LibreOffice are still
inexistent or very new ;-)

Consequently, we do only serve 5 icons with colored frames to our users.

For all other document types, icons with black borders are used. For
example, also the HTML document icon features a black border - although
it is opened in Writer. We also use a black border for the Master
Document - because it only embeds other ODT documents (and due to the
black border, Master Document icons and Writer Document icons can be
easily distinguished when using very small icons sizes).

Concerning the differentiation between document icon and application
icon - there is none, because we estimated that it doesn't add any
value. People start the application in a Start or Applications menu (no
document icons to be seen here) and they mainly use documents when they
browse documents (no applications to be started here). So we help users
to get a straight connection if we avoid any differences ...

Finally, personally I think these assumptions are still valid. But if
the goals changed or the team comes to a different conclusion, then its
surely time to update the icons.

 A.3 I'll be back to the provost embodiment, it is easy to do.
 
 A.4 I think you're wrong. Two files (ODT and DOC, ODG and VSD, ODS and XLS
 etc) have the same name. They will be denoted by the same symbol. You can
 not define the eyes, who is who, if Windows Explorer is turned off Hide
 extensions for known file types (see attachment). LibreOffice uses in its
 Explorer different *.png (images.zip) to ODF\MSO files and do not have
 this problem.

Hehe, concerning the last statement, then its a bug ;-)

Seriously, nobody had the time to provide numerous icons for the same
document type ... it might not only happen to MS Word files, but all
other Text related documents LibreOffice is able to handle (Works, Word
Pro, WordPerfect, ...). The main alternatives are:
  * use the same icon for LibreOffice and foreign (equivalent)
document types
  * use one icon for LibreOffice and a different icon for all
foreign (equivalent) document types
  * use individual icons for all document types

We've decided to go for the most simple solution - provide one icon for
each document type. Because, the more (slightly) different icons you
provide, the harder to remember for the user.

The same is true for A.5 and A.6 (but I might not fully understand these
issues), that we use the simple LibreOffice / TDF icons for all other
places like the QuickStarter icon.

 B. Windows_NT-6.x Explorer reduces itself on the desktop icon 256*256 to a
 size 96*96, if you are using the classic (windows) theme. Icons 256*256
 applications LibreOffice blurred (see attachment). This led me to modify
 these figures.

So, if I get it right, we need 96x96 icons, right?

 D. Template{all}_16*16 has lost a spiral after:
  - svg-resource 16*16 has been exported to raster (file_16.png);
  - png-files color was reduced to 256 colors (8 bits).

Strange ... could you please provide an example (I didn't find any, and
I'm unable to reproduce this here). If its lost due to an automatic
conversion process, then the process should get fixed ...

 P.S. I am a student of The Inscape. GIMP is my main instrument. Sorry.
  This attachment does not attach, but here it is: 
 http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/file/n3790955/blurry%26grey.png 

Both are very fine graphic programs - and each of the programs has
strengths for certain tasks. For the given icons and their re-usability
throughout the project, I agree with Astron that switching to Inkscape
is a good option.

Ape, thanks for paying attention to details!

A final thought: All, please make use of quotations ... I found
discussing these issues looking at the bug report and two different
emails quite hard. (But this might just apply to me  *g*). Thanks!

Have a nice day,
Christoph

 Regards, ape
 
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Rework of the Templates and documents dialogue

2012-02-22 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi Cedric, hi Alex, all!

@ Cedric: I had to moderate your mail.

Hey, a great step forward :-) I'd like to add some thoughts and
information that has been collected some time ago.

Am Mittwoch, den 22.02.2012, 09:11 +0100 schrieb Cedric Bosdonnat:
 On Tue, 2012-02-21 at 17:09 -0200, Olivier Hallot wrote:
  Em 21-02-2012 14:41, Alexander Wilms escreveu:
[...]
   https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Templates_and_documents_rework
  
  ...has the merit to open the discussion on the actual stupid template
  management dialog/menus... 10 years of LibreOffice and I am still
  confused by the twisted mind that designed it. I must have missed
  something really basic all this time. Why on earth do we have to deal
  with address book in organizing templates?  Why acess files in the New
  templates dialog?

Some years ago, there has been an effort within the OpenOffice.org
project to improve the template handling situation. Although it might be
a bit outdated now, I think it would be a very valuable resource for
further information.
http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Feature_-_Templates

Please also note the archive file at the bottom of the page which
contains screenshots of various applications offering templates.

Alex, I have printed out those wiki page long time ago and added some
usability related comments. If you understand German, I can send you a
PDF of those pages ... any interest?

Furthermore, there should be some usage data available for that
dialog ... from OOo times.

  Keep going. That will be a major hit for 3.6
 
 I had in mind to change that sooner or later... just a matter of getting
 some time to do the changes ;)
 
 What I had in mind is pretty close to the mockup on the wiki... thought
 I wanted to:
   * Have this dialog instead of File  New menu
   * Have the blank documents in that dialog too
   * Some tag-sorting feature on the templates
   * Mix all online and local templates in the same dialog for it to be
 transparent to the user.
   * I would have tried to show the tags on a list / tree on the side of
 the dialog, and wouldn't have used tabs to separate the applications:
 for it to replace File  New submenu it needs to provide quick access to
 at least the blank files creation.

I would like to add another thought. I notice recent changes (in the
master) / proposals (in Bugzilla) for e.g. the About dialog. It would be
a pity if we miss this chance for harmonization ... so maybe we could
create a reference layout that could be reused. Here an example how
this could look like (differnt theming, different product, different
windows ... but however):
http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/User:ChristophNoack/Drafts/WelcomeCenter_2010

 For the connection to the templates repository, I'ld love to see
 something using the CMIS protocol as this could allow us to easily
 plug-in to any entreprise shared templates repository (or the LO online
 templates someday when it'll support CMIS protocol).

++1 :-)

Alex, given the very good feedback and the additional thoughts ...
wouldn't it be helpful to add a whiteboard page in the wiki to collect
such proposals / requirements? Could you please do that?

Cheers,
Christoph


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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: New icon set

2012-02-22 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi all,

I'd like to avoid to give an opinion on whether a monochrome icon set
does make sense, but ...

Am Mittwoch, den 22.02.2012, 18:47 +0100 schrieb Kévin PEIGNOT:
  In terms of implementation, i believe that it would be a save of time and
  effort if we begin with using an existing theme. I am not sure if we have a
  tool which could apply some property (say something like a monochrome layer
  over the icon) across an entire icon set, and I will do some research into
  this. If we do manage to get this as a script, we could run it to create
  mono-chrome versions of a few icon-themes like tango, and then see the
  result and choose and modify accordingly.
 
 Great Idea. And then making one icon set (I mean color) and including this
 script in the software to generate the others colors ? Should we ask on dev
 mailing list if this is possible / if it would need lot of CPU/memory
 resource 

I don't think that will work well given our massive number of icons and
the need for easy understandability. Even today, scalable icons (SVG)
are not used for small icon sizes, because these need to be tweaked by
designers to achieve reasonable quality. So, removing the information
channel color automatically might not lead to sufficient results.

However, wouldn't be easiest thing to pick some icons and to use a
graphics program like The Gimp to apply some effects to continue the
discussion?

Here is - for example - a link to the Galaxy icons (don't know the
license):
http://www.openoffice.org/ui/VisualDesign/gifs/Icons/example_galaxy_icons.png

Then it should be possible to test whether active icons, highlighted
icons and disabled icons can actually be recognized easily. Maybe Björn
can jump in and help us with some icon usability testing ...

Stella (the former designer at Sun) did something similar when working
on new disabled icon effects. That worked well to get an idea about
the finally desired effect:
http://www.openoffice.org/ui/VisualDesign/OOo_galaxy_disabled.html

Cheers,
Christoph


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Re: [libreoffice-design] Rework of the Templates and documents dialogue

2012-02-22 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi Alexander!

Am Mittwoch, den 22.02.2012, 17:22 +0100 schrieb Alexander Wilms:
 Hi Olivier, Cedric, Christoph,
 
 Thanks for your encouragement :)

Go go go! ;-)

 I updated the whiteboard 
 (https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Templates_and_documents_rework#Visual_Design_and_Behavior)
  
 taking your comments and links into consideration.

Thanks!

 I feel that one should primarily make use of predefined categories, 
 since a huge number of tags can easily get out of control. They should 
 instead be used to improve the search.

Well, if we can define a reasonable set of categories / tags, then these
could be applied for both the Extension Center and LibreOffice - this
would surely help users.

But I'm less sure about that for the corporate world ... companies
always have own definitions how to categorize templates / documents.

By the way, aren't the tags very similar to the keywords in the
documents?

 It is possible to access Plone via CMIS using a library, but Andreas is 
 currently working on a Plone extension that makes it easier to use the 
 template repository.
 
 Christoph, do you have a picture of the new info window? I don't know if 
 we need further branding in the templates' view, but I tried to make 
 both dialogues look similar (cf. whiteboard).

Thanks! The proposed dialog is part of the following issue tracker
entry: https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=31022

Personally, I think that it doesn't fully fit to the branding language
we have defined so far ... although I have to say that LibreOffice (e.g.
the splashscreen) doesn't meet those requirements ;-)))

So maybe we should first focus on the content of the dialog and think
about the visual design a bit later. But what I'd like to know from you
guys is, whether it is desirable to have (at the end) consistent dialogs
that may contain a bit branding / visual design.

 I am German, so reading those Wiki pages shouldn't be too much of a 
 hassle ;). Maybe you could upload the pdf somewhere and link it in the 
 whiteboard page so that anyone can easily access it.

Sorry, I haven't been clear enough ... the wiki pages are English, but
my personal comments are German. Personal means that the wording is
incompatible with public availability. So if these comments seem helpful
to you, then I'm happy to update some and put them into the whiteboard
page.

Last mail for today ... so have a nice day!

Cheers,
Christoph


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Re: [libreoffice-design] [info] design leads

2012-01-26 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi Klaus-Jürgen, hi Michel, all!

First, thanks Klaus-Jürgen for your reply ... yesterday, we again had a
full-day workshop and so I didn't feel like posting too weird thoughts
to the list ;-)

Am Donnerstag, den 26.01.2012, 17:35 +0100 schrieb klaus-jürgen weghorn
ol:
 Am 25.01.2012 15:38, schrieb Michel RENON:
  Le 23/01/12 22:07, Christoph Noack a écrit :
 [...]
 
  Now, I see two N.N. who need to be filled in the mid-term ... so what
  do you think? How to go on? Anybody there who might accept to guide the
  direction of this team?
 
  What actions/responsabilities are expected from the leader ?
  What is expected to apply ?
 
 I think it is a job like a facility manager/consierge or - if this 
 sounds a little bit better - a mentor.
 The lead should have a look on the different work that come up on one of 
 the two parts of the design team (vi (visual identity) and ux (user 
 experience)), sometimes coordinate it a bit, give some advices.

I think that frames it very well. Although just anybody can pick up
things and organize what is important - there is no real need to be
called a leader. In fact, this project isn't that much about leadership,
it is about meritocracy. Thus, if somebody has a proven track record of
doing cool stuff (tm), then he automatically leads somehow.

So why did we have that leader voting before? Because we are still a
young project with - especially in our team - topics where opinion of
an individual looks as valid as fact based on research. Plus, it
really helps to know what goes on in other teams, otherwise the
guidance might lead into the wrong direction.

[...]

  Il would allow them to share the pressure, the decisions, the knowledge,
  and also one can take some rest without disturbing the project.
 
 Our design leads (Bernhard and Christoph) were not like chairmans. They 
 don't make the decisions, they only start the votings and discussions 
 if no one else do this. Of course they have had a look at our branding 
 and other advices. They are one of the go-to persons if someone out of 
 the design team has a question. Sometimes they turn the team's attention 
 to a work, which we get out of sight, by asking one/two per PM or the 
 whole team by ml.

By the way, if anybody wants to get some feedback on any issue ... feel
free to ask. There are some very knowledgeable people on this list.

[...]

Cheers,
Christoph


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[libreoffice-design] [info] My recent activities in general

2012-01-23 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi everyone,

I hope some of you might remember that there was someone called
Christoph sending mails to this list ;-)

To be serious, there have been some changes in my private and
professional life that make it currently rather difficult to spend that
much time for this project. I'm sad about that, although the changes are
more than fine (having a wonderful small boy to spend time with, and
changing my job - the new one being even more UX-ish than ever before,
although it requires much more driving each day).

That said, and since I did not contribute anything wow to any of the
discussions or bug reports, I think it is inappropriate to keep the role
Design Team Lead, User Experience any longer. So thanks to everyone
who either initiated the voting for that role, and everyone who
expressed their support during the voting. I already felt free to remove
that description from the Design Team wiki page [1].

Now, I see two N.N. who need to be filled in the mid-term ... so what
do you think? How to go on? Anybody there who might accept to guide the
direction of this team?

Currently, I hope to be much more helpful by working on the pile of
issues assigned to me, helping on the ux-advise list ... and looking at
some of the open discussions of the past weeks. For example, it would be
nice to know how to continue with smaller and general (seriously
developed) UI improvements people ask for regularly.


Back to what has been achieved - I was really stunned when I've looked
at the LibreOffice 3.5 features (release notes) page. I think the
LibreOffice community can be really proud of its achievements - some
people actively working on visual design and UX stuff. So let's go on
with that part of the story :-)

Cheers,
Christoph

[1] http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design
[2] http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/ReleaseNotes/3.5


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Re: [libreoffice-design] annnnnd we are back to square one.

2011-11-27 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi all,

It seems we get more traffic on this list if (I have to) stay away for a while. 
To be serious - I only briefly looked at this thread and noticed two things.

First, there are some highly interesting thoughts by both UX guys and 
developers ... thats something I am very happy with. I'd like to have us 
working together to finally derive where we want to go to, and starting to do 
the first confident steps.

Second, I am not so happy that people repeat over and over again that nothing 
happens ... whilst there are numerous (other) requests for support being 
unanswered for a long time. Especially, since parts of (e.g.) the Citrus 
roadmap are at least started (sometimes stalled, but adressed).

We again have some friends visiting us, so I will be available again in a few 
days - maybe I can add some thoughts then. In the meantime, thanks (e.g.) 
Astron and Charles for the calm voices and the FLOSS explanations.

Cheers,
Christoph

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Sent via mobile...



Stefan Knorr (Astron) heinzless...@googlemail.com schrieb:

Hi Andrew,

please remember to be polite. And if you want to work on a roadmap/a
spec, then start one!
There is absolutely no point in endlessly discussing this on the list
and frustrating everyone in the process. For a reasonably complete
spec, see e. g.
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboard/Calc_Range_Names
.


Astron.

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Some Feedback on Citrus.

2011-11-25 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi Kevin, Grek, hi all!

I've planned to stay away from the computer today, but I think that
thread is reason enough to answer nevertheless ;-)


Am Freitag, den 25.11.2011, 19:29 +0100 schrieb Kévin PEIGNOT:
 I agree, but One think is sure : We must try to do an ergonomic AND sexy
 interface. And a survey could help us find what people like.

Yes, a simple mockup survey does tell us what people might like
(theoretically), but it doesn't tell us whether a complex design is
ergonomic, usable, or does fit to user's real needs ... I assume that's
what Greg wanted to say.

By the way, thanks Greg for your kind offer ... it would be great to
hear what you think how we could (pre-)validate Citrus (or any other
proposal).

From my point-of-view - with regard to Citrus and surveys:
  * Either you are an experienced interviewer (listening to what
people usually not say), or ...
  * We use a survey to get a very general indication whether it
makes sense to continue working on Citrus (that would help a
bit, but since most people don't like the current UI we don't
need to ask that *g*), or ...
  * We focus on carefully selected areas of Citrus. In such cases,
one could e.g. describe show pictures and describe workflows
people need to rate. Then you get feedback on design
decisions (not: visual design).

There are lots of examples where surveys asked for product feedback
(with a good intention), whilst making the updated product worse.
Whether it is a special magazine (the publisher asked what topics are
missing, people added lots of ideas, it became a general purpose
magazine without focus and much less user interest) or cars (the
manufacturer asked what configuration options users wanted to have,
people wanted all kinds of stuff, and disliked the product finally
because it was hard to use).

One last thing: If you ask people, then you have to make sure that you
use the right ones. Otherwise you get feedback that seems to be valid,
but is not, unfortunately.

So back to the initial question - do we need a user survey (now), or
should we continue whether we (as the Design Team) think that its
valuable.

If the latter, then I think it would be helpful to have all contributors
speak up (and provide a yes/no with some explanation).


Cheers,
Christoph


 Kévin
 
 2011/11/25 Greg noh.spam.j...@gmail.com
 
  I don't want to rain on your parade but (as a UX practitioner of 20 yrs),
  surveys are almost the least effective means to validate a UI design,
  especially if UI behaviour is included in the investigation. A dozen face
  to
  face interviews supported by static or even active prototypes, conducted
  with
  a variety of users would yield much more useful and reliable results.
 
  If you want to pat yourself on the back and tell everyone that 9 out of 10
  users prefer the new LibreButtonOMatic, then a survey will give you that
  but
  whether 9 out of 10 users actually do will be unrelated to that statistic.
 
  Surely the UXers in the team know people who use these type of products (in
  fact a sprinkling of users of competitive products would add value). I'd be
  happy to work with other UXers to plan the investigation  and conduct a
  couple
  of structured interviews.
 
  Regards,
 
  Noh
 
   Completely agree :)
  
   Alex
  
    On Fri, 25 Nov 2011 09:38:22 +0100 Charles-H. Schulz
   lt;charles.sch...@documentfoundation.orggt; wrote 
  
  
   A survey would be a great idea; in fact, it would help with asking
   ourselves the right question for the spec; in short, it would be a real
   work of User Experience.
  
   Even better news: I think Christoph Noack and Bjoern Balazs know just
   how to set up such a survey, but I might be perhaps too optimistic :-)
  
   Best,
  
   Charles.
  
  
   On 25/11/2011 00:00, Kévin PEIGNOT wrote:
   gt; Maybe we could publish a survey asking, for each part of Citrus UI
   gt; (explained in a few word) what people think about it ? As we did
  with
   our gt; first survey ?
   gt;
   gt; On each page a part of the survey, with a brief summary and if
   possible a gt; mockup. And why not at the end asking a global
   impression note. It's not gt; spec, but it permit to know what people
   think of the globals ideas ? gt;
   gt; Kévin
   gt;
   gt; 2011/11/24 Andrew Pullins lt;android2...@gmail.comgt;
   gt;
   gt;gt; Charles, Kevin, every one,
   gt;gt;
   gt;gt;
   gt;gt;gt; Citrus looks good. But as we explained, if there's no one
   wrting gt;gt;gt; specicications for eaxh part of citrus nothing will
   get done. gt;gt;gt;
   gt;gt;
   gt;gt; ok yes we do need to start on some specifications so that we can
   get gt;gt; started, but we have not talked about it all that much.
  first
   we need gt;gt; to decide on what we all agree on and change what we do
   not. if we get more gt;gt; people to agree with some things I would
   start some specifications, but I gt;gt; still don't know exactly what

Re: Proposal by Daniel (was: Re: [libreoffice-design] Budding Android UI proposal)

2011-11-21 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi Daniel,

before even more time passes by ... I'll try a short reply.

Am Freitag, den 18.11.2011, 23:09 +0100 schrieb Daniel Steyer: 
 Hi Christoph!
 
 And thanks for the words of welcome.
 Wow, that's a long list of thinks, that are important for a design update.
 I thought, that it is much. But as much as here?
 You write The interaction concept has to be worked out (at least 80%).
 What do it means? That not everything works?

Yes and no at the same time. An interaction concept - even for small
part of the UI - can be really tough. You have to consider all operating
system platforms, different kinds of users and use cases, accessibility
needs, technical constraints (currently LibO is quite limited), and also
resources devs are able to spend.

From experience I'd say: starting to code a concept when having only 30%
of required information is hard, since you'll have endless recursion
loops (fine for prototyping, but not developing). On the other hand,
defining 100% will keep us busy for a long time ... if you will ever
achieve 100%. Trust me, I've tried it several times and failed ;-))) So,
aiming for 80% and refining with the development was something that
worked very fine.

A good example for such an approach was:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboard/Writer_SpecialIndicators

Please don't get me wrong, that shouldn't hinder us to start working on
something ... I'd just like to point out that ideation with mockups is a
great thing, but we need more for the development.


 I think the hardest is - but IMHO one of the most important -, to make a
 interface, which is unique, and one which has recognition. Okay, bad
 example, but Windows Office have a more or less good, but unique design.

:-)

Personally, if we can get uniqueness amongst (more important to me)
productivity, then we deliver something being awesome.

 The icons of LO looks so glad, but on every PC or Mac it looks diverent.
 Probably I imagine it still too easy. What can be a first step, I can do?
 Make more thumbnails or write changes down?

I noticed that you've got some more ideas what to work on on the German
list :-) So if you're still interested, the best thing would be to pick
one specific idea (most probably an idea a developer would be interested
in, and we can agree on) and work it out in more detail. Then, chances
are much higher to get some people involved.

Ah, and Daniel, you might be interested in some of the recent activities
with the developers:
http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-ux-advise/2011-November/thread.html

Cheers,
Christoph

 2011/11/18 Christoph Noack christ...@dogmatux.com
 
  Hi Daniel!
 
  Did I already say welcome to this list, I don't think so. So, Welcome
  to this list! ;-)
 
  Am Freitag, den 18.11.2011, 21:38 +0100 schrieb Daniel Steyer:
  [...]
   I see the android version from Mirek. It looks similar.
   I wonder, if there are plans in your team for make a new outfit for
  desktop
   pcs or everything remains as it is now in general?
 
  That is an often raised question ... and the answer is not easy.
 
  First, if you look at LibreOffice 3.5 (the development version) there
  are already some tiny but helpful / nice changes in comparison to the
  recent OOo.
 
  For example:
  http://artax.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~kendy/blog/archives/monthly/2011-06.html
 
  Or:
  http://cedric.bosdonnat.free.fr/wordpress/?p=818
 
  And many more ... but of course that is not a complete new user
  interface that greatly improves usability and visual design. Basically:
   * You need to know what users you have and what they want to do.
 Currently, a first user survey has been done ... others may
 follow.
   * The interaction concept has to be worked out (at least 80%).
 You'll find some ideas (like yours) on this mailing list or in
 other sources. But working it out, needs lots of care.
   * The concept needs to be tested / verified somehow (no _good_
 idea how to do this whilst limiting the effort).
   * Before implementation, you need to remove clutter from the
 today's LibreOffice. That's the tiny things I've talked
 about ... and there are many more.
   * You need to divide the UI concept to make it possible to
 handle the changes. Both for the development and for the
 designers.
   * You need developers being able to work on such large changes
 (and having enough resources). As you may know, many news devs
 currently start with smaller tasks ... it takes time to do
 larger changes.
   * Same for the visual designers ... only changing / updating all
 the icons will take ages, since there are thousands of them.
 
  So, yes, we are thinking about improvements. But from my point-of-view,
  we'll need to address to address smaller issues first. That cleans up
  LibreOffice and developers and we learn to work together. For example,
  some ideas from your work might

Re: Proposal by Daniel (was: Re: [libreoffice-design] Budding Android UI proposal)

2011-11-18 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi Daniel!

Did I already say welcome to this list, I don't think so. So, Welcome
to this list! ;-)

Am Freitag, den 18.11.2011, 21:38 +0100 schrieb Daniel Steyer:
[...]
 I see the android version from Mirek. It looks similar.
 I wonder, if there are plans in your team for make a new outfit for desktop
 pcs or everything remains as it is now in general?

That is an often raised question ... and the answer is not easy.

First, if you look at LibreOffice 3.5 (the development version) there
are already some tiny but helpful / nice changes in comparison to the
recent OOo.

For example:
http://artax.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~kendy/blog/archives/monthly/2011-06.html

Or:
http://cedric.bosdonnat.free.fr/wordpress/?p=818

And many more ... but of course that is not a complete new user
interface that greatly improves usability and visual design. Basically:
  * You need to know what users you have and what they want to do.
Currently, a first user survey has been done ... others may
follow.
  * The interaction concept has to be worked out (at least 80%).
You'll find some ideas (like yours) on this mailing list or in
other sources. But working it out, needs lots of care.
  * The concept needs to be tested / verified somehow (no _good_
idea how to do this whilst limiting the effort).
  * Before implementation, you need to remove clutter from the
today's LibreOffice. That's the tiny things I've talked
about ... and there are many more.
  * You need to divide the UI concept to make it possible to
handle the changes. Both for the development and for the
designers.
  * You need developers being able to work on such large changes
(and having enough resources). As you may know, many news devs
currently start with smaller tasks ... it takes time to do
larger changes.
  * Same for the visual designers ... only changing / updating all
the icons will take ages, since there are thousands of them.

So, yes, we are thinking about improvements. But from my point-of-view,
we'll need to address to address smaller issues first. That cleans up
LibreOffice and developers and we learn to work together. For example,
some ideas from your work might be picked ...

Of course, this is an open-source project, so we are free to work on the
concepts right now. If they are good (understandable and manageable), I
think developers will pick it up.

Well, I hope it helps more than it confuses ;-)

 Best regards
 Daniel
 
 P.S.: Hope you can read it ;)

Read yes, understand - hopefully ;-)))

Enjoy your evening!
Christoph

 2011/11/18 Christoph Noack christ...@dogmatux.com
 
  Hi Daniel, hi Mirek, all!
 
  Hey guys, thanks for the great activity on this mailing list. I'm so
  insanely sorry that I was unable to spend time for LibreOffice during
  the last days. We had a very tough (but insightful) conference at
  work ...
 
  Since I plan to start working on libreoffice-ux-advise, the only thing
  I'll do today is to translate parts of Daniel's proposal (see below).
  I've tried to translate via Google, but some of the thoughts did not
  survive ... I hope my automatic/manual translation (done in a hurry)
  will help you to get some insights.
 
  @ Daniel: Thanks for the proposal! And just feel free to write in
  English ... we all are from different countries and somehow use
  English. If something is unclear, everyone should feel free to ask :-)
 
  @ Mirek: Cool Android proposal ... great rightsizing of (visible)
  functionality for that tiny device :-) I'll have to think about that,
  since I'm unsure about the toolbar sliding to access further
  functionality. (Does anybody remember the SO 5.x toolbar?)
 
  Cheers,
  Christoph
 
  ###
 
  I am a user of the software and find the project great. However, it
  bothers me now simple the UI is, when there e.g. is such a great logo.
 
  I'm not a real talent, but I'd like to present some thoughts - how the
  design might look IMHO. I've tried to ensure that no new code (features)
  are needed (as far as I understand). At the moment, its rather
  reordering and making better use of space and graphics. First, please
  let me introduce my ideas, then I'll add a few comments.
 
  Looking forward for your thoughts ... but please remember these are only
  drafts.
 
  [Image: libre_text.png] -- Writer
  [Image: libre_tabelle.png] -- Calc
  [Image: libre_praesentation.png] -- Impress
 
  As you can see, I have worked on the three main programs. What's new?
  LibreOffice is now more present, and I used reduced versions of the
  icons and rearranged those. Each program uses its own color (I have used
  the Primary Colours). I also tried to remove all the duplicate commands:
  for example on file and as an icon.
 
  All commands from File are now placed next to the title at the right
  side (instead of presentations so there could also be the name of the
  document).
 
  Save is now very

Re: [libreoffice-design] [Fwd: [Bug 38889] Make macro editing easier]

2011-11-13 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi August, hi Michel!

Thank you both for offering your support. Do you think it might make
sense to subscribe to bug 38889 (maybe adding a comment)? So other
people will know that somebody will have a deeper look at the issue.

Michel, if you want to discuss a solution proposal ... happy to help!

Bug: https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=38889

Cheers,
Christoph


Am Sonntag, den 13.11.2011, 12:47 -0500 schrieb August Sodora:
 I would also be very interested in implementing any improvements with
 regards to the macro dialog or basic ide.
 
 August Sodora
 aug...@gmail.com
 (201) 280-8138
 
 
 
 On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 5:59 AM, Michel RENON michel.re...@free.fr wrote:
  Hi,
 
  Le 09/11/11 21:37, Christoph Noack a écrit :
 
  Hi all,
 
  anybody here who has some deeper knowledge (or interest) around managing
  macros? Bug 38889 (implicitly) asks for usability improvements for a
  corresponding dialog.
 
  I have done macro stuff ages ago, so I don't think I'm now qualified to
  work on that ;-) I'd rather like to continue with Calc named ranges or
  the bug reporting assistant.
 
  So, anybody who might give this a try? Would be cool ...
 
  Cheers,
  Christoph
 
 
 
  I've also worked on macros years ago !...
  I've already worked on some ideas for this requestand I'll submit them asap
  (in few days).
 
  Michel
 
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[libreoffice-design] Status Report on Calc Named Ranges

2011-11-13 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi all,

just a quick status report on the Calc's Named Ranges Astron and
myself (looking from the Design Team perspective) were working on.

For those not following the libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list: since
the Hackfest in September, we've discussed lots of UI proposals that
aimed for direct manipulation. Thus, reducing the number of the odd
Add, Modify, Delete buttons whilst keeping the document editable
at the same time. Plus, providing feedback as early as possible if the
user changes e.g. the name (by using invalid characters). Most of the
time, we've run into technical issues ... or performance issues.

So, last week, we've decided to go with a more simple approach to meet
the 3.5 deadline. Luckily, simpler still means having lots of
improvements over the current range name handling.

For those being curious (and those who might help testing, once Markus
completed the implementation):
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboard/Calc_Range_Names

A big thank you goes to Markus (the developer) for his patience and
his will to make things better. And of course thanks to Kohei and
Eike ... long-time Calc hackers who always were open to review the
proposals.

And, Astron, thanks for the very valuable feedback and the great ideas!

Cheers,
Christoph


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[libreoffice-design] LibreOffice Help (Online) might provide helpful insights for troublesome features

2011-11-12 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi all,

just for your interest ... I still miss the ability to gain insights by
analyzing fresh usage data. Unfortunately, the ability to track such
data was only available within OpenOffice.org, so we'll need a
replacement in the mid- or long-term.

Thus, I've pinged Kendy whether the LibreOffice Help Online provides
statistics on the page view ... and yes! Here and there, it might help
us to gain insights what features require explanation ... consequently
might be hard to use. For those being interested, have a look at:
http://help.libreoffice.org/Special:PopularPages

I've added an entry to the Design Tools wiki page:
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/User_Experience/Tools#Research

I've also added a note what to consider when making assumptions about
the PopularPages ranking.

Cheers,
Christoph


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[libreoffice-design] Status of Send Feedback via / for LibreOffice

2011-11-12 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi all,

some of you may remember the Bug Submission Assistant [1] I was involved
in several weeks ago. One of the next steps is to enhance LibreOffice,
so that (e.g.) the bug submission assistant can be called from within
LibreOffice.

I think it would be a great chance to improve the interaction with our
users. So, after some mails on libreoffice-website, some private talks
and some interaction via the issue tracker, I've started to collect the
gathered information on a whiteboard page.

We'll needs some help to provide a good user experience (e.g. beautiful
graphics, good website pages), so please have a look:
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboard/LibreOffice_Send_Feedback

Interested in joining the activity? Any further feedback?

Cheers,
Christoph

[1] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Bug_Submission_Assistant


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[libreoffice-design] [Fwd: [Bug 38889] Make macro editing easier]

2011-11-09 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi all,

anybody here who has some deeper knowledge (or interest) around managing
macros? Bug 38889 (implicitly) asks for usability improvements for a
corresponding dialog.

I have done macro stuff ages ago, so I don't think I'm now qualified to
work on that ;-) I'd rather like to continue with Calc named ranges or
the bug reporting assistant.

So, anybody who might give this a try? Would be cool ...

Cheers,
Christoph


 Weitergeleitete Nachricht 
 Von: bugzilla-dae...@freedesktop.org
 An: christoph.spamfo...@dogmatux.com
 Betreff: [Bug 38889] Make macro editing easier
 Datum: Wed, 09 Nov 2011 17:52:17 +
 
 https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=38889
 
 --- Comment #1 from Björn Michaelsen bjoern.michael...@canonical.com 
 2011-11-09 09:52:17 PST ---
 Rotating this into the featured EasyHacks on the wiki. However, this looks
 rather underspecified to me, thus:
 
 @Cristoph: Could you re-CC anyone on the design team guide any possible takers
 along?
 
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 Configure bugmail: https://bugs.freedesktop.org/userprefs.cgi?tab=email
 --- You are receiving this mail because: ---
 You are on the CC list for the bug.



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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: New handles

2011-11-09 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi Astron, all!

Am Dienstag, den 08.11.2011, 18:55 +0100 schrieb Astron:
 Hi.
 
 I hope I didn't your LibreOffice yesterday – if you downloaded the
 Tango theme, you'll have noticed that (except for the markers), the
 theme looked pretty broken. Anyway, the good new is that the new
 handles are live now, so if you were to download a new development
 build tomorrow, they should be in already. The Tango handles are now
 also in the Humanity, Oxygen and Industrial themes.

Great, thanks a lot!!! It's great to see some progress here :-) I've
tried to follow the discussion on libreoffice-ux-advise and noticed that
there are still some issues to be ironed out. Nevertheless, I do have
some questions ...

  * In general, all the handles are very small - the original size
is 7, but the size here is 6 pixels ... minus the transparent
border, so that effectively 4 pixels remain. Is this the bug
you've talked about with Michael. Currently it is very hard to
see / work with the points. (Only Draw offers to switch to large
handles, it seems ...)
  * When working with points, blue handles are used for each of
the points - the selected one is purple. Unfortunately, at least
for me, it is hard to spot. And, the icons for accessing
points functionality show red handles.
  * Plus, the glue points are a bit hard to find, since the
background color is less bright yellow.

By the way, I've used this daily build in Virtual Machine:
http://dev-builds.libreoffice.org/daily/Fedora_15_gcc-4.6_x86_64_dbgutil/master/2011-11-08_22.26.41/

[...]

Thanks a lot in advance!

Cheers,
Christoph


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Re: [libreoffice-design] Download page?

2011-11-07 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi Andrew!

Thanks for the link ... indeed, the dowload page conceptl is available in the 
whiteboard section (wiki, sorry, no link now). It just needs implementation - 
afaik Ivan wanted to have a look at. Mabe anybody can help?

Cheers,
Christoph
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Andrew Pullins android2...@gmail.com schrieb:

Hi,

I just read an aritcal on
lockergnomehttp://www.lockergnome.com/sherman/2011/11/07/oops-no-libreoffice-when-help-files-are-less-than-helpful/.com
[1] about how this guy had a client had truble downloading LibreOffice. she
saw may different download links and downloaded the help files instead of
the install file. I saw not too long ago that some one was working on
changing the download page. what is going on with this project, I thought
it was going good but just seemed to stop. are we just waiting on some one
to write the code to make the site know what OS you are running.?


just thought id pass this along.

cheers
Andrew

[1]
http://www.lockergnome.com/sherman/2011/11/07/oops-no-libreoffice-when-help-files-are-less-than-helpful/

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Twitter, G+ and Facebook in extension and templates?

2011-11-03 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi Olivier,

yesterday I've sent a mail to this list (no link, sorry, typing on the mobile) 
that tried to clarify the main use cases for the templates / extensions pages. 
A general recommend item is part of that list - I see your mail being some 
kind of confirmation :-) However, we should decide what services to use to do 
that (being a Free Software project).

Could you have a look at that mail - whether it fits. Thanks!

Cheers,
Christoph
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Kévin PEIGNOT peignot.ke...@kpeignot.fr schrieb:

I think it's a great idea but you should discuss it on the marketing
mailing list becauseyour idea would help promote libreoffice
Le 2 nov. 2011 22:50, Olivier Hallot 
olivier.hal...@documentfoundation.org a écrit :

 Hi

 How about twitting / g+ / fb a template or extension you liked?

 Cheers

 --
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 Founder, Board of Directors Member - The Document Foundation
 LibreOffice translation leader for Brazilian Portuguese
 +55-21-8822-8812


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[libreoffice-design] Idea DocumentCheck migrated to the Design Team Wiki

2011-11-03 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi all,

just for your information ... I've added the idea DocumentCheck to the
Design Team wiki by migrating some OOo UX content. I worked it out
almost two years ago ... and now it got some new drive, since I've
noticed a presentation by Christophe Strobbe who talked about an ODT
Accessibility Checker - this is highly related :-)

Christophe and myself agreed that it might be helpful to have that
content in the TDF wiki, so that its easier to work on it. The new
whiteboard page is here:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/DocumentCheck

The LibreOffice Conference 2011 presentation (unfortunately, no link to
presentation files yet):
Generating Accessible Documents with LibreOffice Writer by
Bert Frees and Christophe Strobbe (LibreOffice Conference 2011,
Friday afternoon, 2 p.m.).


The original page (in the OOo UX wiki) can be found here:
http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/User_Experience/DocumentCheck

My original OOo UX blog posting:
http://uxopenofficeorg.blogspot.com/2009/12/brainstorm-new-ideas-document-check.html

Cheers,
Christoph


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Re: [libreoffice-design] Discussion about Extensions-Site-Layout

2011-11-03 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi all,

just a quick update ... I've moved the use case list and the Twitter, G
+ and Facebook in extension and templates? discussion to the wiki page
covering the Extension website:
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Extensions-website#Requirements_and_Constraints

Sorry for the drafty look and the unrefined formulation ... but I
thought its more important to conserve that than waiting even longer. So
please feel free to improve those thoughts.

It would be cool if somebody could start to draft some workflows /
screenflows based on these lists ... and then we'll can ask Andreas how
easy (or hard) it is to incorporate these.

Cheers,
Christoph


Am Mittwoch, den 02.11.2011, 22:02 +0100 schrieb Christoph Noack:
 Hi all,
 
 I would love to jump into some of the new discussions (like Citrus UI),
 but I feel that its also important to finish the discussion of the
 Extension page. For those who might be unaware - the Extension website
 has been announced to the public. There has been some nice coverage
 (e.g. the German publisher heise a.k.a. h-online) featured it. So let's
 start to make it perfect ;-)
 
 Am Sonntag, den 23.10.2011, 15:58 +0200 schrieb Christoph Noack:
 [...]
  So, refining the tasks list ... open for discussion, of course.
  
  Interest of the people approaching the page:
   1. Getting extensions / templates ... so users should get an
  initial idea (so showing e.g. the most recent or best rated
  items - from here, people should be able to get further
  collections)
   2. Getting help how to install Extensions (currently it is still
  manual work, so we have to help here)
   3. Making it possible to forward information / templates to other
  people (use case: advanced user helps less experienced person
  to find what he might need)
   4. Upload their own content (this needs refinement as well ...)
  
  The interest of the LibreOffice community:
   A. Getting information about LibreOffice (to know that this is an
  official page, to get information about us if the user
  approaches the page by accident)
   B. Ask for joining the community / supporting LibO (e.g. spreading
  the word, joining the community as explained on our Get
  Involved on the main page).
 
 Anything missing? Any comments from an User-oriented Engineering
 point-of-view?
 
 What I'm thinking about is
 
 Item 2.5: Currently, people need to pick extensions bit-by-bit. What
 we're missing (not now, but if we become more popular) is a way to
 suggest Extensions to users - fitting to their needs.
 
 Examples how this could be done:
   * Prepared collections by users / teams, e.g. the
 Professional Writer pack, the Extension Developer
 pack
   * Automatically created proposals like Other people that
 downloaded XYZ also downloaded ABC.
 
 Item 3.5: People want to provide feedback on downloaded extensions.
 Either indirectly via the Extension Page, or directly to the developer
 of an extension.
 
  I searched a bit how the old page was designed, maybe some bits and
  pieces are helpful:
  http://ui.openoffice.org/VisualDesign/OOo_ExtensionsSite.html
  and
  http://ui.openoffice.org/VisualDesign/OOo_ExtensionsSite3.html
  and
  http://ui.openoffice.org/VisualDesign/OOo_TemplateSite.html
  
  A bit crowded when it comes to the Template Preview. However ...
 
 A related topic: The OOo extension site used so called landing pages
 when the download of content started ... maybe something to think about
 what we could achieve with it.
 
 So, what do you think? Is this list (the primary use cases) complete
 enough?
 
 Cheers,
 Christoph
 
 



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Re: [libreoffice-design] Discussion about Extensions-Site-Layout

2011-11-02 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi all,

I would love to jump into some of the new discussions (like Citrus UI),
but I feel that its also important to finish the discussion of the
Extension page. For those who might be unaware - the Extension website
has been announced to the public. There has been some nice coverage
(e.g. the German publisher heise a.k.a. h-online) featured it. So let's
start to make it perfect ;-)

Am Sonntag, den 23.10.2011, 15:58 +0200 schrieb Christoph Noack:
[...]
 So, refining the tasks list ... open for discussion, of course.
 
 Interest of the people approaching the page:
  1. Getting extensions / templates ... so users should get an
 initial idea (so showing e.g. the most recent or best rated
 items - from here, people should be able to get further
 collections)
  2. Getting help how to install Extensions (currently it is still
 manual work, so we have to help here)
  3. Making it possible to forward information / templates to other
 people (use case: advanced user helps less experienced person
 to find what he might need)
  4. Upload their own content (this needs refinement as well ...)
 
 The interest of the LibreOffice community:
  A. Getting information about LibreOffice (to know that this is an
 official page, to get information about us if the user
 approaches the page by accident)
  B. Ask for joining the community / supporting LibO (e.g. spreading
 the word, joining the community as explained on our Get
 Involved on the main page).

Anything missing? Any comments from an User-oriented Engineering
point-of-view?

What I'm thinking about is

Item 2.5: Currently, people need to pick extensions bit-by-bit. What
we're missing (not now, but if we become more popular) is a way to
suggest Extensions to users - fitting to their needs.

Examples how this could be done:
  * Prepared collections by users / teams, e.g. the
Professional Writer pack, the Extension Developer
pack
  * Automatically created proposals like Other people that
downloaded XYZ also downloaded ABC.

Item 3.5: People want to provide feedback on downloaded extensions.
Either indirectly via the Extension Page, or directly to the developer
of an extension.

 I searched a bit how the old page was designed, maybe some bits and
 pieces are helpful:
 http://ui.openoffice.org/VisualDesign/OOo_ExtensionsSite.html
 and
 http://ui.openoffice.org/VisualDesign/OOo_ExtensionsSite3.html
 and
 http://ui.openoffice.org/VisualDesign/OOo_TemplateSite.html
 
 A bit crowded when it comes to the Template Preview. However ...

A related topic: The OOo extension site used so called landing pages
when the download of content started ... maybe something to think about
what we could achieve with it.

So, what do you think? Is this list (the primary use cases) complete
enough?

Cheers,
Christoph


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Re: [libreoffice-design] I'm going to leave the community - thanks to all of you!

2011-11-01 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi Bernhard, all Design Guys!

Answering the mail by Bernhard is (most probably) the only action I'll
do today ... after having visited my family for a few days.

Am Samstag, den 29.10.2011, 01:24 +0200 schrieb Bernhard Dippold:
[...]
 I can't spend my time on LibreOffice any more.
[...]
  From now on I will try to spend more time with the most important 
 people in my real life: my children and my friends.
 Even if I like being here very much, real life is more important - and 
 if you understand that you have to spend your time wisely, your decision 
 is clear...

Of course, I'm very, very, sorry to hear that ... but I also know that
you've mentioned earlier the need of balancing professional,
LibreOffice and private life.

In my introduction, I deliberately stated my family visit - I really
know how hard it is to set priorities right (I have been wrong several
times). Thus, I really hope that your decision makes life for you more
enjoyable and more manageable.

[...]

 So I have to stop all my LibreOffice activities and hope that you keep 
 up the great work you already do.
 
 It has been very much fun to be a part of this community.
 I learned quite a lot during the 6 or 7 years of in the OpenOffice.org 
 and LibreOffice community (I improved not only my English), but the most 
 important part of the work here is to meet not only co-workers, but friends.
 
 I'm leaving very reluctantly, but as the day has less than 30 hours to 
 work, I know that my decision is the right one.
 
 Thank you that I could be part of such a great community - and a design 
 team that starts to become more and more important inside this community.

Quite the contrary: thank you for spending time with us - I remember
many highly interesting discussions over the last years. Not only the
LibO/OOo related ones, but also the private talks :-)

Moreover, I'd like to highlight that you intensively helped to shape the
LibreOffice project ... not only within the Design Team; you have one of
those being almost everywhere to help with balanced thoughts and
constructive feedback - always keeping the community and its
point-of-view the priority. That's something I'll surely miss.

So, personally, I hope that working within OpenOffice.org, and realizing
the idea of TDF and LibreOffice has been an exciting experience ... even
worth talking about in 20 years. You know, the stories to be told to the
grandchildren :-)

[...]

Finally, I hope that there will be a chance for e.g. trainings or
conferences nearby ... I'm looking forward to enjoy another glass of
wine with you :-)

Bernhard, I really wish you all the best - you, your family, and your
friends.

Thank you!
Christoph


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Re: [libreoffice-design] Some ideas to improve the look feel of LO

2011-10-28 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi Stefan,

I share your view ... but if we want to improve things, then teaching the user 
might help. There has been a thread on libo-ux-advise talking about 
Draw/Impress tools behavior ... I proposed to improve feedback via the status 
bar. anybody (Alex) who could have a look?

Cheers,
Christoph
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Stefan Weigel stefan.wei...@bildungskreis.org schrieb:

Hi,

Am 28.10.2011 00:51, schrieb alexander.wi...@zoho.com:

 2) Well, at least in Inkscape and Gimp Ctrl is the used key so it
 might be considered a standard

I am not saying Microsoft is the standard. But MS Word uses the
shift key for that, as well as OpenOffce.org and LibreOffice. If
different word processor applications use the same method for the
same thing, I would *not* recommend changing it in one of these
common applications.

Stefan


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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: LibreOffice Tablet Suite

2011-10-28 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi Charles, hi Andrew, all!

Charles, thanks for the explanations ... although I wasn't able to
reply, I've read some of them at work (of course, during an official
break *g*). Very well explained, thanks!

Here another take ... and by the way, I read the remaining mails in this
thread. So Andrew, I might refer to this or that you wrote after this
mail.

Am Freitag, den 28.10.2011, 09:05 +0200 schrieb Charles-H. Schulz:
 Hello Andrew,
 
 2011/10/28 Andrew Pullins android2...@gmail.com
[...]
  we are starting from scratch here. yes the UI that Mirek has come up with
  looks very much the same as his Citrus UI but that is the way it should
  be(or at least if we decide to go with Citrus[which we should.])
  of cores the interface that we have today would not be good on a tablet. I
  have talked to a few people that USE pages on the ipad a lot at my church
  to
  make their sermons, and they have said that you can do too little in pages.
  they want more tools with the tablet suite. they also say that because of
  this they make there documents on the computer with M$ word. so some of the
  curent UI should be put into the tablet suite.
 
 
 I think it would be very interesting to collect even more granular feedback
 on what they dislike with Pages from these people, do you think you could do
 that some time?

Yes, some qualitative feedback would be nice ... some hint: don't ask
for the features they miss, ask for what they wanted to do and where
they experienced problems. And, after finishing the interview, I suggest
that you ask what other office productivity suites they use - otherwise
its very hard to compare.

Why this approach? Because normal users always tend to answer they need
certain features, although they never use them ... it might sound
cold-hearted from my side, but here we need to protect them to fiddle
around with their choice :-) I once summarized that for OOo Renaissance:
http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Renaissance/FAQ

(Sorry, wiki is down ... once it is back, you'll find something like
Does adding functionality hurt?)

   - Designing an interface won't be everything. You can draw a beautiful
mock-up, but if the design/UX team does not translate it into
specification(s) it will remain a nice mock-up. Developers do not
know what to do with a mock-up, it can only be an illustration that
gives a general impression.
  
 
  what kind of specifications, from what Mirek and I have done so far what do
  the developers need to make it work? from what I have done it it I can see
  only one or two things that would need more explaining, which would be that
  when typing the document the contextbar and maybe the top bar would hide
  and
  when press the bar that remains it would reaper.
 
 
 Oh... We are very, very far from even 20% of the job of a specification
 here. Here's a link that I found on a blog, it does not give you the precise
 manual to write a specification, but it gives you at least an idea of what a
 specification should contain:
 http://boadweelaw.com/blog/2007/02/15/how-to-draft-a-specification-or-requirements-document-for-a-contract/

Thanks for the link! Andrew, for LibreOffice, being an end-user software
for *many* people, we finally need to cover more. But let's explain that
step by step ...

A mockup or a blog post is great to transport an idea - to get interest
by other people and to make sure that those people see the potential.
But for the implementation (which is more than development) you need to
involve a lot of people.

Besides the explanations in the link above, you'll finally need
accessibility, translation hints, QA details, edge-cases behavior,
potential migration issues, ... 

Don't get feared :-) Turning an idea into a feature needs a bit
experience, but isn't black magic ... for example, when I did my very
first contributions for OOo, I simply reviewed a lot of specifications
by the Sun developers (Some years later, I was told that almost everyone
in the Hamburg offices knew me for that ...). Did that help? Yes,
because I did not knew the topic too well (like a new developer), so I
hinted towards missing / incorrect stuff the author simply assumed to be
known.

Back to the topic: A specification (or more relaxed: a whiteboard page)
for a rather complex feature serves as a hub that connects all the
different teams. André and I did a presentation on the LibO conference
explaining exactly that ... and you might be surprised what we need to
make sure that even tiny features work right from the start:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/cgi_img_auth.php/e/e6/2011-10-15v3_LibOCon_Non-Hacker-Tasks_Schnabel-Noack.pdf

Here is André's specification proposal:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Andreschnabel/Spec_Calc_grid_lines_on_colored_background


 As you can see it's a full document that's needed, it describes very
 precisely each interaction of the UI. By the way, since what is needed is
 -at least for LibreOffice on the desktop- only one 

Re: Share the how to collaborate? (was: Re: [libreoffice-design] New web banners. Feedback?)

2011-10-28 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi Tobias!

First, thanks for the help :-)

Am Freitag, den 28.10.2011, 17:51 +0200 schrieb Tobias Bernard:
 hi all
 
 after some busy weeks where i've been absent from the mailing list, here's a
 first draft for the collaboration wiki text.
 http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Collaboration
 
 as i said, i don't have a lot of experience with mediawiki, so the
 formatting could probably be better and there are probably still some
 language errors ;)
 what do you think?

That's great - it is much simpler to refine something once its there,
than having to create something new. So I felt free to add some
introduction, changed the formatting / numbering a bit, added a license
recommendation, and changed the text a bit. Concerning the latter, my
aim was to emphasize the personal contribution ... I hope that's fine
for you.

Thanks a lot! What's the next thing you'd like to improve? ;-)

Cheers,
Christoph


 2011/10/3 Christoph Noack christ...@dogmatux.com
 
  Hi Tobias, all!
 
  Am Montag, den 03.10.2011, 21:00 +0200 schrieb Tobias Bernard:
   So, Tobias (or anybody interested), could you start such a
Design/Collaboration page?
 
   yes, i could. great idea!
 
  Cool - thanks a lot!
 
   but i'd probably need some help, because i don't have a lot of exprience
   with mediawiki (i tried to create a new page, but couldn't find the
  option
   to do it). so if someone creates a page i'd write the text ;)
 
  Done :-) Here it is ...
  http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Collaboration
 
  Creating a page in MediaWiki is a bit funny, yes. You need to browse to
  the inexistent page (e.g. by typing in a URL), then you get the option
  to Create it. But, you need to be logged in.
 
  Thanks again! I'm sure we can make it a helpful resource for new team
  members ... if others think stuff is missing (e.g. I always wanted to
  know ..., I know others always missed ...), then please jump in.
 
  Cheers,
  Christoph
 
   tobias
  
  
   2011/9/29 Christoph Noack christ...@dogmatux.com
  
Hi Tobias, all!
   
Am Mittwoch, den 28.09.2011, 21:51 +0200 schrieb Tobias Bernard:
[...]
 but as i already said and others too mentioned, it *is* a problem,
  when
 design is done with proprietary software and no soures are available
  in a
 standard format (in our case SVG).
[...]
 in any way, i highly recommend everyone to use free software from the
very
 beginning, so we don't have to deal with such problems in the future.
   
I still totally agree ... and you've stated many reasons why the use of
open file formats and free software is required to enable
  collaboration.
   
So, I'd like to kindly ask you for a favor - could you please summarize
these thoughts on a wiki page, so that other new community members get
an idea how we usually work? That was something I had in mind since
quite some time ... but never managed to start writing such a page. I
promise that I'll add stuff later ;-)
   
And, it would be greatly complement our already existing tools page:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/User_Experience/Tools
   
So, Tobias (or anybody interested), could you start such a
Design/Collaboration page?
   
Cheers,
Christoph
   
 2011/9/28 David Nelson li...@traduction.biz

  Hi guys,
 
  Sorry, but I disagree with criticising Aleksandar like this.
 
  1) We need creative people doing work for our project. I don't
  really
  care what he uses, as long as the format of the source files is
  accessible. Sure, it would be great if he was using Gimp or
  Inkscape,
  but Photoshop can output files that can be read with those
  programs,
  and Gimp can read .psd.
 
  2) We all have our favorite tools. I run Linux 24/7 on my system,
  but
  I always keep a copy of Photoshop 6/ImageReady installed using
  Wine/Crossover Office, simply because I know how to easily do
  things
  with them that *can* be done with Gimp but only in a more
  round-about
  manner. Plus, there are things that Gimp and Photoshop each do
  slightly better or worse than the other.
 
  So I think Aleksandar should be left to use what tools he wants.
  You
  do know that Photoshop is a *very* commonly-used tool among graphic
  artists, right?
 
  So can we stop the flaming in this thread about tools?
 
  Tobias,Vitorio, when I the same real productive output for the
  LibreOffice project from you guys as Aleksandar has contributed,
  then
  you can start bitching. Until then, please let the guy work in
  peace.
 
  Thanks. ;-)
 
  --
  David Nelson
 
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Some ideas to improve the look feel of LO

2011-10-27 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi Alex,

let me quickly comment them ...

Am Donnerstag, den 27.10.2011, 21:57 +0200 schrieb
alexander.wi...@zoho.com:
 Hi all,
 
 I've collected several ideas regarding the look of LO. Some of them are 
 inspired by word and I think it wouldn't be too hard to realize them. 
 There's a short summary with a few examples in this document: 
 http://ubuntuone.com/7m7AXgeh7OIwGBiCOHAjGh

Thanks for the visualization ...

 1) First of all, I think it's time to change the default formatting and 
 coloring of text, shapes and tables. It doesn't have to be 
 extraordinary, but some polish would be nice.

True. Two different activities here
  * on libreoffice-ux-discuss, Olivier and others discussed fonts
standardization (a bit different issue, but touches the
defaults)
  * Cedric (Writer dev) wanted to work on the styles and the stylist
in general. Concerning the former, a German guy offered his
help. Furthermore, on the developers list there is a recent
thread called [Libreoffice] Styles cleanup  removing option
page std fonts.

So, you may simply jump in :-) I already provided some input concerning
the types of documents being written.

 Additionally would it be 
 useful if the user could define alternating colors for tables and maybe 
 even export all this to a xml file or something for easy exchange.

True, that's known ... incl. the need for table styles. But an Easy Hack
for that would be nice. I didn't have a look whether an issue for that
exists.

 2) Pressing Ctrl while resizing a picture or shape should keep the 
 ratio, like e.g. in Inkscape

Mmh, Shift already does that ...


 3) If possible, the markup-language input for formulas should be optional

Ongoing work called Visual Formula Input ... has been discussed some
months ago on the dev list. If you want to have a look, enable the
experimental (unstable) features in Tools - Options - General. I
assume it might help to test the feature and provide feedback (but we
should ask the dev first).


 4) I wonder how useful the text border actually is. We could achieve a 
 cleaner look by simply disabling it by default

Well, I got already almost killed at the conf for my agreement to
minimize the borders :-) It's ongoing work by Cedric, who worked on the
Headers/Footers:
http://cedric.bosdonnat.free.fr/wordpress/?p=818

My specification is here:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboard/Writer_SpecialIndicators#Document_Margin_Design

Test it in one of the daily builds :-)

 5) The handles for resizing and rotating look rather dated. They should 
 be replaced by some squares/circles filled with a nice gradient.

I think devs will be happy to get the graphics to implement them. As far
as I remember, the elements are rather simple graphics (but we may ask
Thorsten, who mentioned them - if I remember well enough). But, there
are already 3D and flat handles in LibreOffice. Switching by (Draw)
View - Toolbars - Options - Simple Handles (off).


 6) There should be some nice borders (e.g. polaroid-style) that could 
 easily be applied to imported graphics

Sure - but do you mean to apply them during importing, or applying them
afterwards (being interchangable), or do you mean using frame styles?

 What do you think? Some of this might not be trivial to implement, but 
 in my opinion it would be worth the effort. Should I forward the mail to 
 the devs?

I hope it helped a bit.

A side note: given your proposals I notice (and that's great, as I
mentioned recently), developers do care about such stuff. I can only
recommend to subscribe to the developers list and to join to test the
daily builds.

Cheers,
Christoph


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Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Fwd: Re: [libreoffice-design] APP/Online LibreOffice

2011-10-27 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi Mirek, all!

Am Mittwoch, den 26.10.2011, 18:43 +0200 schrieb Mirek M.:
[...]
  I don't really have any internet problems anymore, but I do have time
 problems. I really have a very busy life right now and my priorities lie
 elsewhere.

I really hope that time issues do not relate to anything
problematic ... I hope you're just fine and can enjoy life. And if there
is a bit more time again, then it would be cool to have you around ...

 That said, if I do find the time to do so, I'll devote some time to Citrus
 now and again, and if anyone has any questions about it, they're welcome to
 post them.

Thanks for that offer! And - although it needs discussion here - thanks
for providing Citrus and all the fresh ideas.

Cheers,
Christoph


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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Work Items Management

2011-10-27 Thread Christoph Noack
,
where do these get added. To the On-Hold list, status in proposal?
(Sorry if I missed that ...)

 9. I'm not opposed to that, but I'd prefer if the only colours on the 
 page were alongside things that can be worked on.
 
 And Christoph I'm going to snip alot of your Email to so I can keep my 
 responses just as snappy;
 
 
 On 11.10.25 08:10, Christoph Noack wrote:
[...]
  So, where do we currently work on tasks and have some task management?
 * http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design#Work_Items
 * http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards (already
   having a simple Recent Topics / Past Topics section)
 * Bugzilla (usually smaller tasks)
 * libreoffice-ux-advise (usually smaller tasks, if bigger, then
   moved to a Whiteboard)
 
 Almost everything should remain functioning like it does now, but 
 detailed info should move to Whiteboards and the Work items page should 
 serve as a short linked index to all our tasks. Something to look over 
 quickly.

Personally, I'd like to avoid doubled statuses (e.g. Whiteboard page and
tasks page). Then it gets a bit tricky ... I already work on two or
three Whiteboard tasks that might be less relevant to others. So to me
its active ... How would that look like on the Tasks list, if we only
have 4 active items?

  Back to your proposal - would it help to change the objective of the
  tasks list? My take ... a rough proposal:
 * Larger task will (should) automatically require a Whiteboard
   page. The whiteboards overview page might benefit from your
   proposed structure.
 * Smaller tasks that new contributors (with varying skills) might
   take, should go to a separate section like EasyTasks /
   StarterTasks. A similar structure to the task list (which still
   keeps the fun) is required here.
 * All other tasks that are less urgent, nobody takes care of
   quickly  should go to an Open Tasks list. Just to not forget
   them ...
 * Bugzilla and libreoffice-ux-advise should stay as they are.
 
  What do you think?
 Larger tasks: listed on Work-items page with a link to its Whiteboard page.
 Smaller tasks: Leave them on this mailing list, we should try to keep 
 the work-items focused.
+1

 I do not want the Work-items page tables to be about types/categories 
 of tasks, I want them to be about the stage/lifecycle of that task. 
 Just active, suspended or done. That's all that matters if we are trying 
 to keep it simple.
 
 
  Color coding means that somebody has to decide on the priority ...
 
 Yep. You! Or Bernhard.
 Generally a member can do this and you can review the prioritisation.
 We shouldnt' get tripped up over this. We elected you both because we 
 trust you and this is an example.
 When you get the chance review the priorities, otherwise they will be 
 worked out on-list with little discussion hopefully.
 Less talk, more DO.
 =)

Hehe, hope that will work fine for everybody ...


   * We need to have deadlines,
  Yep, if we agree that these should guide but hurt (in terms of
  deadlines).
 
 I think they should hurt us if we don't meet them. This is about 
 establishing Design as a team that delivers and can be counted on. Even 
 if nobody else tracks this, we should. My proposal: every day that a 
 project/task runs over schedule should be counted and displayed on our 
 Design wiki home page. A bad (high) number will hopefully urge us to 
 get it done to salvage our worth as a part of this community. A good 
 (low) number can be a source of pride amongst ourselves that we deliver 
 when people need us. It will be our performance indicator.

Here, I object ... the deadlines should help us to coordinate the work
in advance. But as long as few people actively contribute its hard to
balance many of the tasks. And since normal life sometimes happens,
nothing should hurt.


   * We need to have a client and a representative who speaks on their
 behalf.
  Yep. At least someone will send the request ...
 
  However, I think another helpful thing would be to provide information
  that tells what we need if someone requests a certain item (I've
  collected some ideas for visual design elements, but did not send them
  to the list / wiki yet ... maybe the next task).
 agreed, the requirements should be specific and in the examples, I've 
 demonstrated that every requirement should be a deliverable and 
 measurable item. Something identifiable as a satisfactory outcome or not.
   * We need to be organised and update this ourselves
  True, but this will need help by everybody ... which I currently miss a
  lot. We have many people on this list, but only veeery few who are
  active (whatever small or larger task it may be).
 Any volunteers to help with this? we have 150 suibscribers.
 Someone might be interested in helping whip us into shape?

insert_contributor_name_here

  and most drastically

Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Fwd: Re: [libreoffice-design] APP/Online LibreOffice

2011-10-25 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi Rafael, Andrew!

Rafael, wow, a post that covers many of my thoughts ... thanks for
that :-)

Am Dienstag, den 25.10.2011, 10:41 -0200 schrieb Rafael Rocha Daud:
 Hi Andrew,
 
 Em 25-10-2011 08:00, Andrew Pullins android2...@gmail.com escreveu:
[... Citrus Prposal ...]

 I don't think Citrus is a bad idea, on the whole. The problem with it 
 is: they have been conceived as a whole. Things should look pretty, of 
 course (my girlfriend loves LibreOffice, but my brother won't use it 
 unless it looks better -- same story everywhere), but that's not our 
 only concern: we already have a large userbase, and a way of how things 
 work in the interface. You cannot simply change this overnight. But you 
 know that.

From the user's point-of-view, that's absolutely true.

But its also true from the point of the developers - things have to be
specified, coordinated, developed, tested, documented, ... so it needs
to be done step by step anyway.

 So, assuming you know that, this is not a matter of embracing Mirek's 
 design or not, but whether to embrace it in each part. That's why 
 there's is the UI_Elements [1] page: we should see them as parts, 
 discuss one by one and find out if it's for better to change it or not. 
 Small changes are easier to do, to manage, to get used to (from a user 
 and developer point of view), but most of all, it needs hacking, so you 
 cannot go to devs and say: this is how we would like the whole 
 application to look. You have to take one small part and convince them 
 that it would be important to change this one, because it would better 
 this and that.

Even if they are convinced ... descriptions like Citrus are rather ideas
but something a (or in this case: many) developer(s) can start working
with.

 Even inside our team: even if Citrus is a good idea (which I'm not 
 convinced about, but this is off-topic now), there could be better 
 solutions for each element. This discussion sounds the same as the 
 (thankfully dead) ribbon/not ribbon one. Because it's not a matter of 
 changing the whole interface (that's the mistake Microsoft did, but 
 that's according to theirs, not ours, model of business), it's a matter 
 of enhancing small parts at each time.

Yep, and there are ideas / issues that can be addressed now ... but of
course an 80% stable solution concept like Citrus helps to guide
(note: I'm also not fully sure if the whole Citrus concept fits yet, but
hopefully Mirek and his thoughts will be around).


 That leads to the question, what do we want from LibreOffice, often 
 raised (Christoph mentions that again from the Paris conference -- miss 
 the link now, sorry). We should discuss that instead of 
 Citrus/Ribbon/any ready-magic solution.

Well, in Paris we've talked about the vision for LibreOffice in
general. That's something I'd love to discuss (and finally decide, but
don't know how yet - how to involve all stakeholders). I've already
pinged the members of the little group how to continue. Any wishes from
your (all) side?

Back to this list. I think that parts of the UI / workflows can be
improved nevertheless ... I'll better stop here, it surely gets
redundant ;-)

Andrew, do you have any special area of interest you'd like to
contribute?

Thanks Rafael!

Cheers,
Christoph




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Re: [libreoffice-design] Idea: command launcher for LibreOffice

2011-10-25 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi Oren, all!

Dear designers, I had to moderate Oren's mail and already included a
quick reply with a proposal from some time ago (see below, please).

Am Dienstag, den 25.10.2011, 22:29 +0200 schrieb Oren Barnea: 
 On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 22:09, Christoph Noack
 christ...@dogmatux.com wrote:
 [...]
 
 Concerning your idea ... yes, we had some similar proposals
 some years
 ago, but we didn't get that far to consider it / implement it.
 If you
 like, please have a look at:
 
 http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Proposal_by_Andreas_Schuderer#Keyboard_Command_Invocation
  
 
 [...]
 Thank you for the link to the proposal from a few years ago. It's very
 well written and quite convincing IMHO... Do you happen to remember
 why it didn't even get considered? I read somewhere that after the
 split from OO.o, the development of LibreOffice became quicker and
 more flexible - do you think there's a chance that the idea that got
 rejected back then might be getting a warmer welcome now?

It didn't get considered, since we brainstormed about new ways to access
functionality ... first, we needed improved menus (the command
invocation was something optional), then it was prototyped, then it
became clear that before any changes OOo needed to be cleaned up first,
then we got the first results in Impress, and then ... well the story of
LibO :-)

Surely, the LibreOffice development became quicker and more flexible ...
because many developers are free to decide on their tasks and time. This
means we need to find someone who likes this idea. One, who may start
doing a simple proof-of-concept via an extensions (or something like
that). In this case, it needs asking them ... any developer around who
might know whom to ping?

Some years ago, I also thought a bit about such an issue ... for example
something like an Awesome Bar (see Firefox) for OOo/LibO.
  * Enter a word ... it's a term in the document as well? Then show
the function to search / jump to that word.
  * Enter a number ... it's a heading? Then resolve it to a
cross-reference.
  * Enter a function ... maybe the user needs help as well. Offer to
go to the help topic.
  * ...

You'll get the point ;-) But first, let's have some room for the others
as well ...

Cheers,
Christoph

Am Dienstag, den 25.10.2011, 10:11 +0200 schrieb Oren Barnea:
 Hello,
 
 Here's an idea aimed at helping with the long-standing problem of the huge
 number of commands, options and menu items in office suites, and their low
 discoverability. It's more of an adaptation of existing ideas, actually.
 
 Desktop application launchers (Gnome-Do, Katapult, Synapse and their likes)
 have been around for years and IMHO are a very convenient way of executing
 applications, launching files and so on. Recently they have gone more
 mainstream, as Windows 7, Gnome Shell and Unity all have similar
 functionality built into their interfaces. I think an office suite could
 benefit from having a similar interface as a way to improve the efficiency
 of work and the discoverability of the commands and options available to the
 user, since the traditional menu structure and the newer Ribbon style are
 both lacking in this.
 
 As a first step to implement this idea, I think it might be possible to
 create an index of the texts in the localization files of LibreOffice, which
 include all the commands, options and word in dialog boxes that a user might
 want to execute. Once the index exists, a plug-in can be written to launch a
 search box that lets the user type what they want to do, search the index
 for the typed text, show the user a list of items that fit that text and
 execute the selected item.
 
 I don't know how difficult or easy it would be to do this. Maybe the
 suggested way of implementing this idea is not even possible (I'm actually
 not sure there is a way to map the indexed words to the actual commands, and
 if there isn't one, what would it take to create it.)
 
 I have to say that I'm not a software developer and I know almost nothing
 about the structure of LibreOffice. Everything I wrote about the
 implementation of this idea might be totally wrong. I know that some of the
 things I talk about don't even belong to this specific mailing list, but I
 think this is the right place to suggest this idea.
 
 I would be very happy to hear your opinions about this idea and if it's
 worth pursuing.
 
 All the best,
 Oren
 



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Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Fwd: Re: [libreoffice-design] APP/Online LibreOffice

2011-10-24 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi Andrew, all!

Just a quick answer, since some mails are waiting today ...

Am Montag, den 24.10.2011, 00:21 -0400 schrieb Andrew Pullins:
 
  Hi
 
 
  That needs some refinement from my point-of-view. The devices runningAndroid,
  iOS were made for different tasks ... and became popular for that. Today,
  people demand to use those devices for different tasks as well - sometimes
  it works well, sometimes it does not. that. Today, people demand to use
  those devices for different tasks as well - sometimes it works well,
  sometimes it does not.
 
 
 yah the different tablets will serve different tasks but LibreOffice
 should serve the same task all across the board... I do not see what your
 getting at.

Question: If a tablet does not offer a mouse (you need to use your
finger instead), has no keyboard (entering text is hard, speech
recognition does not work yet reliably), does it make _sense_ to use
LibO for the very same tasks? Or does the should serve the same tasks
make things more complicated than necessary?


 My question here is, what tasks can be improved / are required for
  LibreOffice on such platforms. What set of functionality can be derived
  for such cases? What tasks will be exclusive for a classical desktop?
  What differentiates LibreOffice on Android/iOS from normal ODF viewers?
  (You got the point, I guess.)

 I don't know, maybe a sort of dumb down LibreOffice. not all the
 functionality needs to go into a tablet suite. what gets taken out or left
 in, I don't know. we will have to decide that some how.

Correct. But the somehow starts before asking the devs for a new UI.


  Why do you think that? As we have different objectives, each developer
 
  has his own goal (sometimes aligned with the goal of the company he
  works for *g*). That means some of them care for the Desktop UI, some
  might care about the iOS/Android UI
 
 
 I think this because most devs do not care about what the thing looks like.
 they could make the absolute ugliest UI ever and they would be happy that it
 worked. the rest of the world would be absolutely confused but that does not
 seem to matter for a dev. they know how to work it why does every one else
 have a problem with it.

Sigh. The Design Team is not about the look only, it is about how we can
support user tasks by efficient workflows. However, any developer I know
is happy if things work and look good (without requiring too much work
for him). So why do you think that devs don't care?


  (sometimes aligned with the goal of the company he works for *g*).
 
 
 ok that is the second or third time I have saw some one say that. what do
 you mean my *g*.

*g* = fat grin

Sorry for that, I assumed it is (now) common Internet slang.

  What I perceived at the LibreOffice Conference is, that developers do
  care about the LibreOffice we have, and that there are more support
  requests by them than we (on libreoffice-ux-advise) do currently handle
  (providing facts, collect requirements, do competition analysis, provide
  UI proposals, test daily builds, ...).
 
 
 sounds like we need better communication between teams then.

Yes and no at the same time. If people work together, then communication
simply happens ... libreoffice-ux-advise currently works perfectly well
for what it has been created for.

But back to the original issue; asking developers for a new UI without
(the Design Team) knowing what to ask for, is hardly working
together ;-) So my suggestion is that you start to pick some of the open
questions we've raised in this thread ... that would be extremely
helpful and also convey to the development that we care.

Cheers,
Christoph


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Re: [libreoffice-design] Discussion about Extensions-Site-Layout

2011-10-24 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi Andreas!

Am Montag, den 24.10.2011, 21:57 +0200 schrieb Andreas Mantke:
 Am Montag, 24. Oktober 2011, 21:23:54 schrieb Christoph Noack:
 (...)
  Am Sonntag, den 23.10.2011, 17:16 +0200 schrieb Andreas Mantke:
   Hi Christoph, *,
   
   Am Sonntag, 23. Oktober 2011, 15:58:07 schrieb Christoph Noack:
Am Sonntag, den 23.10.2011, 13:31 +1100 schrieb Nik:
  [...]
  
   but that is not a discussion task only for designer. I created the
   Donation-Portlet because there was a discussion and request on
 other
   lists (If I remember correctly the website list).
   Thus the discussion had to take place on the Website- or the
   Foundation-Discuss-List, because otherwise we'll discuss this
 topic
   again and again on different lists.
  
  Absolutely! Discussions will take place ... and this was the reason
 for
  me to start the what is important for users and us-list. I think
 that
  hasn't been clear from my side (sorry). Once we defined the user
 tasks
  with the highest priority (or things we really need to avoid, like
 e.g.
  advertising), it will be much easier to decide.
  
 
 but that is not a design-only-thing. It should in my opinion be
 discussed on the 
 lists, I suggest above.

And I agreed to that ... I just think its easier to prepare a balanced
list of important / less important things being based on an UX
perspective. That should make it easier to get the others involved (my
hope).

 I created the donation portlet, because there was a strong request for
 it. If we 
 would go in another direction or will change the focus, it should
 discussed on the 
 international discuss list or the website list. And it is no fun for a
 developer, if 
 he had to do everything again and again (You know groundhog day ;-)

Well, I don't think that the donation portlet is a bad idea ... but as
Nik pointed out (which I agree to), it may convey the wrong message.
Especially for people approaching the page ... having not even found an
extension / template that might help them. That's also UX input ...

So, back to the Calc named ranges.

Cheers,
Christoph


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Work Items Management (was: Re: [libreoffice-design] LibreOffice Conference 2011, Personal Summary)

2011-10-24 Thread Christoph Noack
 means something like Tasks in
Focus, then I'm fine.


 What do you think?
 
 And just to prove I mean business, I'll happily listen to input on this 
 matter until the 31st of October. On the 1st of November, whether we are 
 ready or not, we will make changes to improve the work items page;
 http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Work_Items

Well, maybe more input that you've expected ... you should surely read
it as being happy that you kicked that off :-)

Cheers,
Christoph


 On 11.10.23 09:26, Christoph Noack wrote:
  Hi everyone,
 
  I noticed some discussions that might relate to discussions we've had at
  the LibreOffice Conference last week. So, if you want to spend some
  minutes, then here is my personal summary:
  http://luxate.blogspot.com/2011/10/libreoffice-conference-2011-personal.html
 
  If anything is missing or unclear ... please ask :-)
 
  Cheers,
  Christoph
 
 
 
 



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Re: [libreoffice-design] Discussion about Extensions-Site-Layout

2011-10-23 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi Nik, all!

Am Sonntag, den 23.10.2011, 13:31 +1100 schrieb Nik:
 And on a personal note, all of this constant emphasis on donation is 
 really starting to change my impression of LibO. A LOT! We went from
 a 
 philosophy-driven endeavour which emphasised its focus on freedom
 (both 
 speech AND expense) which rarely requested money to a seemingly 
 money-hungry enterprise that wants more donations - more donations - 
 MORE DONATIONS! 

Ah, very good point ... thanks for the reminder. Of course, the
donations are currently just required to pay for the infrastructure
etc. So yes, it might make more sense to explain people what the overall
project is about and how they can contribute to support us. From OOo
experience we know, that some people chose it because they want to
contribute, but don't know how / don't want to spend time.

So, refining the tasks list ... open for discussion, of course.

Interest of the people approaching the page:
 1. Getting extensions / templates ... so users should get an
initial idea (so showing e.g. the most recent or best rated
items - from here, people should be able to get further
collections)
 2. Getting help how to install Extensions (currently it is still
manual work, so we have to help here)
 3. Making it possible to forward information / templates to other
people (use case: advanced user helps less experienced person
to find what he might need)
 4. Upload their own content (this needs refinement as well ...)

The interest of the LibreOffice community:
 A. Getting information about LibreOffice (to know that this is an
official page, to get information about us if the user
approaches the page by accident)
 B. Ask for joining the community / supporting LibO (e.g. spreading
the word, joining the community as explained on our Get
Involved on the main page).

Comments? Ideas? I hope the list helps us to keep focus when it comes to
the content design.


I searched a bit how the old page was designed, maybe some bits and
pieces are helpful:
http://ui.openoffice.org/VisualDesign/OOo_ExtensionsSite.html
and
http://ui.openoffice.org/VisualDesign/OOo_ExtensionsSite3.html
and
http://ui.openoffice.org/VisualDesign/OOo_TemplateSite.html

A bit crowded when it comes to the Template Preview. However ...

Cheers,
Christoph


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[libreoffice-design] LibreOffice Conference 2011, Personal Summary

2011-10-22 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi everyone,

I noticed some discussions that might relate to discussions we've had at
the LibreOffice Conference last week. So, if you want to spend some
minutes, then here is my personal summary:
http://luxate.blogspot.com/2011/10/libreoffice-conference-2011-personal.html

If anything is missing or unclear ... please ask :-)

Cheers,
Christoph


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Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Fwd: Re: [libreoffice-design] APP/Online LibreOffice

2011-10-22 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi Andrew, Astron, Charles, all!

Interesting discussion so far :-)

Am Samstag, den 22.10.2011, 17:18 -0400 schrieb Andrew Pullins:
 
   I'll try to summarise what is necessary for LibreOffice Online (I hope
 
  this won't madden you):

 Im not mad, im just a bit fustrated and trying to make every one see why we
 need to get this rolling soon.

I think everybody sees the need that adaptations are required, but the
perceived urgency might vary.

Why?
  * Do we know what the devs who make LibreOffice compile on other
platforms do have in mind?
  * Does porting to Android/iOS tell us anything about the devices
and their input devices that will get supported?
  * Does spending less effort on LibreOffice Desktop help to improve
future UIs on other platforms?
  * Do we know what LibreOffice UI elements need to be adapted
(without the need to have developers looking at the code)?
  * Do we have sufficient expertise on how an e.g. Android program
needs to behave / look like?
  * ...


[...]
  * some tweaks to floating toolbars and other window management things
  – no idea, if there's anything there, but probably not a major effort.
 
 are you talking code or GUI here. because here is a link to what Mirek has
 done to the floatbars http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Trs-float.png

Astron, there is some very basic window management available that
currently handles the windows shown in the browser. Very basic means
that e.g. the floating toolbars do have doubled window titles.

From my point-of-view, the final solution should not show LibO in a
browser window, but the browser window should appear like LibO. But,
that also means that we need some dedicated handling for toolbars (and
other stuff).

But, there is other stuff that needs to be handled first ... Michael has
a good set of open points to be addressed ;-)

 This is very different for Android and IOS, because on both platforms,
  LibreOffice would need a native, touch-centric port. In other words, a
  complete UI rewrite

 of corse the UI for these devices will be different. it will have to be
 drasticly different. we should try to make it work as much like the desktop
 as we can but still be as simplistic as possible. for these devises we do
 not want it to be complicated. because thats what the devices were made
 for, simplicity.

That needs some refinement from my point-of-view. The devices running
Android, iOS were made for different tasks ... and became popular for
that. Today, people demand to use those devices for different tasks as
well - sometimes it works well, sometimes it does not.

My question here is, what tasks can be improved / are required for
LibreOffice on such platforms. What set of functionality can be derived
for such cases? What tasks will be exclusive for a classical desktop?
What differentiates LibreOffice on Android/iOS from normal ODF viewers?
(You got the point, I guess.)

It is possible to work on most of these questions without developer
support. Quite the contrary - I assume these answers will be quite
helpful for the developers once they have solved the very basic
technical difficulties.

[...]

 im not saying that development will stop ether, bugs will be reported and
 fixed. some features will be added... but will the UI be improved if we
 start on two new projects... I think not.

Why do you think that? As we have different objectives, each developer
has his own goal (sometimes aligned with the goal of the company he
works for *g*). That means some of them care for the Desktop UI, some
might care about the iOS/Android UI

What I perceived at the LibreOffice Conference is, that developers do
care about the LibreOffice we have, and that there are more support
requests by them than we (on libreoffice-ux-advise) do currently handle
(providing facts, collect requirements, do competition analysis, provide
UI proposals, test daily builds, ...).

Here, again, a hint towards the presentation we gave at the LibreOffice
Conference:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/cgi_img_auth.php/e/e6/2011-10-15v3_LibOCon_Non-Hacker-Tasks_Schnabel-Noack.pdf

[...]

So finally, what's the takeaway of my mail?
  * Improving the normal LibreOffice will help to get a better
product on other platforms as well. But that needs helping
hands.
  * People who are interested can work on the iOS/Android stuff
without the need to convince developers or the whole community
in advance. There is a lot theoretical stuff that can be done,
even before developers touch the visible parts of the UI.

Cheers,
Christoph


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Re: [libreoffice-design] Discussion about Extensions-Site-Layout

2011-10-22 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi all,

it is already 1:30 am, so wildly jumping into the discussion ... :-)

Am Sonntag, den 23.10.2011, 00:02 +0200 schrieb Astron:
 Hi everybody,
 
 as the person who created the original version of sharp-triangled
 Extensions  Templates logo (ie [1]): I absolutely second Nik's
 request. If you need more of an eyecatcher, just make the entire image
 (a little) larger. The current logo looks butchered badly (and it is,
 given that I and later you modified Nik's good original logo).

I also second Nik's request for several reasons. Furthermore, I'd like
to add that the current logo needs an enormous amount of space that eats
away space for the actual content of the page. I would even suggest to
make the pages close to the default LibreOffice site, so that users feel
at home (whilst knowing where to look for the logo).

By the way, I know that you explained to me that its not possible to
combine the Extensions and the Templates page ... so an idea for the
future. The X could also be used for LibreOffice E*x*tras covering
both topics.

 Overall, though, the focus shouldn't be on the logo too much, but
 rather on the content: a grid of newly-uploaded/curated/rave-reviewed
 extensions and only two lines of text would be great.
 
 By the way, your (Nik's) homepage proposal looks good apart from the
 fact that there's still no action on the site (see above).

+1

The question to me is, what arethe most important tasks on the website?
I guess ...
 1. Getting extensions / templates ... so users should get an
initial idea (so showing e.g. the most recent or best rated
items - from here, people should be able to get further
collections)
 2. Getting information about LibreOffice (to know that this is an
official page, to get information about us if the user
approaches the page by accident)
 3. Upload their own content (this needs refinement as well ...)

Our interest might also be to: ask for donations.

Personally, I consider this a starting point for further User oriented
changes.

By the way, there are many categories to chose from (on the Templates
page). It might be helpful if we could consider the survey results what
people do with LibreOffice / OOo to make finding items easier. Does that
sound interesting?

[...]

Cheers,
Christoph


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[libreoffice-design] LibreOffice Conference 2011: Presentation Developer Tasks for Non-Code Hackers

2011-10-17 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi all,

I'm back at home and like to share what André and I presented at the
conference this year. Since the presentation targeted non-code hacker
tasks, you'll find also bits and pieces covering Design. Why? I've
noticed some people mentioning that its sometimes hard to get started
and that the current community workflows are hardly visible.

As we said at the conference, if you have any questions or comments,
then please ping us (here).

Presentation in ODP:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/cgi_img_auth.php/b/bb/2011-10-15v3_LibOCon_Non-Hacker-Tasks_Schnabel-Noack.odp

Presentation in PDF:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/cgi_img_auth.php/e/e6/2011-10-15v3_LibOCon_Non-Hacker-Tasks_Schnabel-Noack.pdf

And (for the sake of completeness) the Design Team Presentation page:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Presentations#Presentations


I hope you'll like it ...

Since we do have visitors for the next few days, time for a nice
blogpost covering the conference and some replies to the open threads
will require some more time.

Cheers,
Christoph


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Re: [libreoffice-design] Discussion about Extensions-Site-Layout

2011-10-08 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi Alex, all!

Am Freitag, den 07.10.2011, 21:56 +0200 schrieb
alexander.wi...@zoho.com:
 Hi,
 
 Thats my attempt: http://ubuntuone.com/0qaaZ3eaxmxV10RvUYUjCL

Hehe, nifty idea ... :-) But, several people asked some time ago (almost
one year ago) to not alter the LibO / TDF logo because of branding
reasons. As far as I know, we do have two exceptions until today:
  * our MIME type icons - was a decision within the team to improve
the visibility of our logo, but the changes are always without
showing the LibO name
  * our Planet - really needs to be updated anyway (in comparison
to the other pages it looks quite dated)

Do you have any idea how to transform that idea into something less logo
related? Maybe using the text Extensions on a puzzle-piece background?

Furthermore, what do you think about the general style of the page?
Should we go for the default website style we have today, for the one
Nik proposed along with the Motif design, or are there any ideas for
further refinement?

 Are you the admin of the template repository? I'm asking because I 
 submitted this file (http://ubuntuone.com/6GrGwdycMifBmPIyz3ri1m)and I 
 must say that the process is quite complicated. Is there any chance to 
 simplify it? Additionally I am not able to get an overview of the 
 project and the status.

Yep, some simplification would be great ... although I know Andreas did
a lot to improve the Plone behavior for us. However, is there something
you have in mind that could be done easily? For example, I've asked
myself why the TemplateCenter / ExtensionCenter isn't visible on the
start page. I think this is what the people are searching for ... any
other ideas?

Cheers,
Christoph

 Am Fr 07 Okt 2011 20:24:39 CEST schrieb Andreas Mantke:
  Hi all,
 
  the new extensions-site is in a test-mode since some weeks now. We have 
  already
  worked on a header graphic for the site. This is online now. But maybe 
  there are some
  ideas for improvements of the sites layout. I hope to get some proposals / 
  mockups
  from the design-experts here ;-)
 
  You can find the site here at the moment:
  http://extensions-test.libreoffice.org
 
  Regards,
  Andreas



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Re: [libreoffice-design] Uploading Paulo Jose's Template

2011-10-06 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi Alex!

Am Donnerstag, den 06.10.2011, 14:10 +0200 schrieb
alexander.wi...@zoho.com:
 Hi all,
 
 does anyone know how to get in contact with Paulo? His last posts on his 
 blog, Twitter and Facebook are rather old and after sending him a 
 message on Facebook he didn't reply. If you don't have an email-address, 
 would it be OK for me to upload it to templates-test.libreoffice.org?

I only know his mail address ... and, sadly, I haven't heard him since a
few weeks. I also sent him this/that information (e.g. because his
document saved icon has been integrated into LibO), but didn't get a
reply. I really hope he is fine and that the reason for the silence is
just being busy with his studies.

 Another issue is that we don't have the source files, ideally svg for 
 the background. I could try to recreate them to make it easier to modify 
 the template.

If you think its worth and fits well enough to the visual style ... I'm
(of course *g*) fine with it. 

By the way, I recently tried to upload the community template to the
Template-Center, but was hit by an issue ... so no access to this
reviewed project at the moment.

 What do you think?

By the way, sorry for being offline since a few days ... try to be back
during the weekend!

Cheers,
Christoph


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[libreoffice-design] Request to update a presentation title (was: Re: [LibreOffice Conference 2011] Official Presentation Template)

2011-10-03 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi Dag, all!

Am Montag, den 03.10.2011, 01:05 +0200 schrieb Dag Wieers:
 On Sun, 2 Oct 2011, Christoph Noack wrote:
[...]
 Sure, the template looks nice :)

Thanks!

 I have a question, and maybe you can forward it to the personal 
 responsible for the conference website.
 
 My presentation is currently called:
 
  Automated conv.  styling with unoconv
 
 on the conference website, and I would prefer if the title was restored to 
 its full name:
 
  Automated conversion and styling using unoconv

Done on the conference website. I did not update the spreadsheet, since
it doesn't fit there.

I don't know whether other items need to be updated as well, so
forwarding to the conference mailing list (I'm not in the conf team).

 Thanks in advance,

You're welcome!

Cheers,
Christoph


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Re: [libreoffice-design] Request to update a presentation title (was: Re: [LibreOffice Conference 2011] Official Presentation Template)

2011-10-03 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi all,

oops, wrong list :-) Now forwarding to the conf mailing list.

Cheers,
Christoph

Am Montag, den 03.10.2011, 11:32 +0200 schrieb Christoph Noack:
 Hi Dag, all!
 
 Am Montag, den 03.10.2011, 01:05 +0200 schrieb Dag Wieers:
  On Sun, 2 Oct 2011, Christoph Noack wrote:
 [...]
  Sure, the template looks nice :)
 
 Thanks!
 
  I have a question, and maybe you can forward it to the personal 
  responsible for the conference website.
  
  My presentation is currently called:
  
   Automated conv.  styling with unoconv
  
  on the conference website, and I would prefer if the title was restored to 
  its full name:
  
   Automated conversion and styling using unoconv
 
 Done on the conference website. I did not update the spreadsheet, since
 it doesn't fit there.
 
 I don't know whether other items need to be updated as well, so
 forwarding to the conference mailing list (I'm not in the conf team).
 
  Thanks in advance,
 
 You're welcome!
 
 Cheers,
 Christoph
 
 



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[libreoffice-design] [Info] Whiteboard page for Special Indicators in Writer (Header / Footer, Document Border, Page Break)

2011-10-03 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi all,

since some of you might not read the libreoffice-ux-advise, here is a
quick update concerning the new special indicators that get implemented
by Cedric. I've created a whiteboard page which summarizes the recent
discussions / implementation.

http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboard/Writer_SpecialIndicators

If you find mistakes / typos ... great! In this case, I'd like to ask
you to directly edit the page. If you find major issues, then either add
them to the Open Points, or join the discussion on
libreoffice-ux-advise. It is important that the rough idea is understood
(when having the whiteboard page and a recent daily build), so that QA
and Documentation know what's important for them ...

Cheers,
Christoph (who really needs a coffee now *g*)


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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Download Page Improvements

2011-10-03 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi Marc,

cool to hear you ... I hope everything is fine(er) now!


Am Sonntag, den 02.10.2011, 22:11 -0400 schrieb Marc Paré:
 Le 2011-09-29 17:04, Christoph Noack a écrit :
  Hi Marc, all!
 
  Am Donnerstag, den 29.09.2011, 12:42 -0400 schrieb Marc Paré:
  Le 2011-09-28 21:55, Ivan M. a écrit :
  [...]
  WHAT: Improve the Download Page on our website
  WHERE: http://www.libreoffice.org/download/
  WHY: It's not very usable for less experienced users, and it could
  look a lot better too
  HOW: Decide on a new design and implement it in HTML/CSS/JS
  WHO: Anyone interested, and myself
  WHEN: As soon as possible...

[...]

  All thoughts - requirements, texts, website structure - are here:
  http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Download_Page

[...]

 Nice! I like the design. IMO, the less verbose the better for our new 
 users. Users are interested in downloading, installing and using right 
 away. But there are still some issues.

Let's see :-)

 One of the recurring questions from users is that of Java (Do we need 
 to download/install Java?). For a new user to LibreOffice, this would 
 not be evident from your mockup and he/she would just assume that 
 everything needed would come included in the one download.

Do they need Java to run LibreOffice? As far as I remember Java is still
optional (decreased dependency) and rather a question for people
migrating from OpenOffice.org. So, it is something for Installing
Instructions - the placeholder is already there.


 I also like the fact that there is a short descriptive section on the FR 
 download site (Quels fichiers télécharger [Which Files to Download?]) 
 where it displays the needed files for all three supported OS's. This 
 again, for a new user would not be evident on the mockup.

Since cleanliness of the page was important for me, I checked with
Christian whether the files for download could be made dependent on the
operating system (like today). So instead offering the user everything
he could download (for system he never heard of *g*), we offer him the
pre-selection for his OS - which should be sufficient for 99.5% of all
use case. If the user needs to download other versions, then:
  * he can change the Computer system setting
  * he can check out All Downloads

For example, the Linux Download page mentions all three downloads - for
Windows you only have the Help Pack that could be added optionall.
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/cgi_img_auth.php/8/80/2011-07-01_DownloadPage_Features_Linux_Expanded.png


 I would also suggest a Corporate Use link on the right hand side as we 
 are also getting more questions about which version is for corporate 
 use. This link could also help streamline help for corporate use -- 
 maybe send them off to a FAQ targeted for corporate use? Alternatively, 
 we could have a Corporate use version on the second tier menu with a 
 version specifically targeted to corporate use with accompanying links 
 to help files such as large scale installation and professional 
 services offerings etc.

Well, this has been discussed in-depth some time ago ... according to
our release schedule, there are only two versions the more stable, and
the the newer features version. The latter refers several times to
cooperations and large-scale deployments. The only thing missing is
the FAQ (or similar info) - can be linked from e.g. Release Notes and
Known Issues or Installing Instructions. Then, we keep the download
page quite clean. Well, if company admins use our download page at
all :-)

However, if we offer a special ultra-hardened version, its simple to
add that (at the beginning, I've started with this idea). Traveling back
in time...
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/index.php?title=Design/Whiteboards/Download_Pageoldid=26394#Versions_Descriptions

 I think if these issues were dealt with on the download page mockup, it 
 would make for a great page.

I don't know whether my answers have been sufficient ... I think it
still fits. And even if its not perfect, each small step towards a
better download experience is a great step :-)

Cheers,
Christoph


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Re: Share the how to collaborate? (was: Re: [libreoffice-design] New web banners. Feedback?)

2011-10-03 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi Tobias, all!

Am Montag, den 03.10.2011, 21:00 +0200 schrieb Tobias Bernard:
 So, Tobias (or anybody interested), could you start such a
  Design/Collaboration page?

 yes, i could. great idea!

Cool - thanks a lot!

 but i'd probably need some help, because i don't have a lot of exprience
 with mediawiki (i tried to create a new page, but couldn't find the option
 to do it). so if someone creates a page i'd write the text ;)

Done :-) Here it is ...
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Collaboration

Creating a page in MediaWiki is a bit funny, yes. You need to browse to
the inexistent page (e.g. by typing in a URL), then you get the option
to Create it. But, you need to be logged in.

Thanks again! I'm sure we can make it a helpful resource for new team
members ... if others think stuff is missing (e.g. I always wanted to
know ..., I know others always missed ...), then please jump in.

Cheers,
Christoph

 tobias
 
 
 2011/9/29 Christoph Noack christ...@dogmatux.com
 
  Hi Tobias, all!
 
  Am Mittwoch, den 28.09.2011, 21:51 +0200 schrieb Tobias Bernard:
  [...]
   but as i already said and others too mentioned, it *is* a problem, when
   design is done with proprietary software and no soures are available in a
   standard format (in our case SVG).
  [...]
   in any way, i highly recommend everyone to use free software from the
  very
   beginning, so we don't have to deal with such problems in the future.
 
  I still totally agree ... and you've stated many reasons why the use of
  open file formats and free software is required to enable collaboration.
 
  So, I'd like to kindly ask you for a favor - could you please summarize
  these thoughts on a wiki page, so that other new community members get
  an idea how we usually work? That was something I had in mind since
  quite some time ... but never managed to start writing such a page. I
  promise that I'll add stuff later ;-)
 
  And, it would be greatly complement our already existing tools page:
  http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/User_Experience/Tools
 
  So, Tobias (or anybody interested), could you start such a
  Design/Collaboration page?
 
  Cheers,
  Christoph
 
   2011/9/28 David Nelson li...@traduction.biz
  
Hi guys,
   
Sorry, but I disagree with criticising Aleksandar like this.
   
1) We need creative people doing work for our project. I don't really
care what he uses, as long as the format of the source files is
accessible. Sure, it would be great if he was using Gimp or Inkscape,
but Photoshop can output files that can be read with those programs,
and Gimp can read .psd.
   
2) We all have our favorite tools. I run Linux 24/7 on my system, but
I always keep a copy of Photoshop 6/ImageReady installed using
Wine/Crossover Office, simply because I know how to easily do things
with them that *can* be done with Gimp but only in a more round-about
manner. Plus, there are things that Gimp and Photoshop each do
slightly better or worse than the other.
   
So I think Aleksandar should be left to use what tools he wants. You
do know that Photoshop is a *very* commonly-used tool among graphic
artists, right?
   
So can we stop the flaming in this thread about tools?
   
Tobias,Vitorio, when I the same real productive output for the
LibreOffice project from you guys as Aleksandar has contributed, then
you can start bitching. Until then, please let the guy work in peace.
   
Thanks. ;-)
   
--
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Share the how to collaborate? (was: Re: [libreoffice-design] New web banners. Feedback?)

2011-09-29 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi Tobias, all!

Am Mittwoch, den 28.09.2011, 21:51 +0200 schrieb Tobias Bernard:
[...]
 but as i already said and others too mentioned, it *is* a problem, when
 design is done with proprietary software and no soures are available in a
 standard format (in our case SVG).
[...]
 in any way, i highly recommend everyone to use free software from the very
 beginning, so we don't have to deal with such problems in the future.

I still totally agree ... and you've stated many reasons why the use of
open file formats and free software is required to enable collaboration.

So, I'd like to kindly ask you for a favor - could you please summarize
these thoughts on a wiki page, so that other new community members get
an idea how we usually work? That was something I had in mind since
quite some time ... but never managed to start writing such a page. I
promise that I'll add stuff later ;-)

And, it would be greatly complement our already existing tools page:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/User_Experience/Tools

So, Tobias (or anybody interested), could you start such a
Design/Collaboration page?

Cheers,
Christoph

 2011/9/28 David Nelson li...@traduction.biz
 
  Hi guys,
 
  Sorry, but I disagree with criticising Aleksandar like this.
 
  1) We need creative people doing work for our project. I don't really
  care what he uses, as long as the format of the source files is
  accessible. Sure, it would be great if he was using Gimp or Inkscape,
  but Photoshop can output files that can be read with those programs,
  and Gimp can read .psd.
 
  2) We all have our favorite tools. I run Linux 24/7 on my system, but
  I always keep a copy of Photoshop 6/ImageReady installed using
  Wine/Crossover Office, simply because I know how to easily do things
  with them that *can* be done with Gimp but only in a more round-about
  manner. Plus, there are things that Gimp and Photoshop each do
  slightly better or worse than the other.
 
  So I think Aleksandar should be left to use what tools he wants. You
  do know that Photoshop is a *very* commonly-used tool among graphic
  artists, right?
 
  So can we stop the flaming in this thread about tools?
 
  Tobias,Vitorio, when I the same real productive output for the
  LibreOffice project from you guys as Aleksandar has contributed, then
  you can start bitching. Until then, please let the guy work in peace.
 
  Thanks. ;-)
 
  --
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Windows Icons

2011-09-29 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi Ivan!

Am Mittwoch, den 14.09.2011, 00:16 +1200 schrieb Ivan M.:
 Hi all,
 
 I noticed that Libre Office's Windows mimetype/file icons seem to lack
 an alpha channel (their edges are jagged). Has this been done on
 purpose, or would it be worth the effort to add 32 bit versions of
 these icons?

Phew, don't know whether it was on purpose - I don't think so. Those
icons surely look bad ... Let's ask Thorsten whether he has a clue.

@ Thorsten: Do you know the reason? And, how to correct that - what's
required from our side?

@ Ivan: Do you have access to the GIT repository? See ...
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/GitArtworkGuide

 If you're not sure what I'm talking about, please have a look at [1] -
 this file contains all icons from soffice.exe (LibO v3.4.3) in PNG and
 ICO format.
 
 Regards,
 Ivan.
 
 [1] www.patentpending.co.nz/libreoffice/icons/windows-icons.7z


Thanks for mentioning that!

Christoph


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[libreoffice-design] Download Page Improvements

2011-09-29 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi Marc, all!

Am Donnerstag, den 29.09.2011, 12:42 -0400 schrieb Marc Paré:
 Le 2011-09-28 21:55, Ivan M. a écrit :
[...]
  WHAT: Improve the Download Page on our website
  WHERE: http://www.libreoffice.org/download/
  WHY: It's not very usable for less experienced users, and it could
  look a lot better too
  HOW: Decide on a new design and implement it in HTML/CSS/JS
  WHO: Anyone interested, and myself
  WHEN: As soon as possible...

[...]
 FYI - The French team has just done a revision of their download 
 page[1]. It was made less verbose and user experience was considered 
 through the process. It is still being tweaked at this time. JB Faure 
 was/is instrumental at facilitating the change which is well 
 appreciated. Merci JB!
 
 Cheers
 
 Marc
 [1] http://fr.libreoffice.org/telecharger

Of course, the changes led to improvements, but I think it is still too
complex for average users. So here is the proposal to get some more
inspiration - I worked it out some time ago (technical guidance by
Christian, inspired by Nik, pushed by a discussion on the German mailing
list):
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/cgi_img_auth.php/7/7c/2011-07-01_DownloadPage_Default_Windows_Collapsed.png

All thoughts - requirements, texts, website structure - are here:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Download_Page


@ Ivan: I don't know if that fits to the HOW: decide on a new
design  I invested almost two weeks refining the details and got
very good feedback by different people. We just need somebody to
implement it ;-)

Cheers,
Christoph


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Re: [libreoffice-design] [VOTE CLOSED] Christoph Noack is Design Team Lead!

2011-09-28 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi Bernhard, hi all!

So ... what to say ... thank you all for your great support. That's very
more than encouraging :-) Maybe my current feelings can be expressed by
I'll do my best to help you to make LibreOffice something really
great. And (hopefully) beyond that ...

What I like to ask you is to think about what's important for you, for
the community. What's currently the most pressing task for LibreOffice,
the biggest issue within the Design Team (within the LibreOffice
community), ...? As you know - we have collected lots of stuff on the
WhatWeNeed pages? What do we need to improve first ...

(I've noticed some shortcomings, but I'd like to hear your thoughts.)


Cheers,
Christoph


Am Mittwoch, den 28.09.2011, 00:18 +0200 schrieb Bernhard Dippold:
 Hi all,
 
 I think we can close this voting:
 
 Congratulations Christoph!
 
 The Design Team wants you to be their Lead!
 
 All the people posting in this thread (and in the other thread on flying 
 ships) showed their support for this position.
 
 So, Christoph, there are at least 12 people willing to support you!
 
 Bernhard Dippold schrieb:
  [...]
  Up to now several Design Team members posted their opinion:
 
  Björn Balasz (+1)
  Sabin Densmore (+1)
  Kévin Peignot (+1)
  Alexander Wilms (+1)
  Charles-H. Schulz (congratulations - don't know if for the Lead position)
 (added +1)
  Ivan Miskovic (+1)
  Tobias Bernard (+1)
  Rafael Rocha Daud (+1)
  Aleksandar Dev (+1)
 Sveinn í Felli (+1)
 Helio S. Ferreira (+1)
 Michel Renon (+1)
 
 My best wishes for a bright LibreOffice Design future!
 
 Bernhard
 
 ... just going to update the wiki page ...
 



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Re: [libreoffice-design] New web banners. Feedback?

2011-09-27 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi Tobias, all!

Sorry for stepping in ...

Am Dienstag, den 27.09.2011, 22:02 +0200 schrieb Tobias Bernard:
 so you used photoshop to create these?
 man, that's not cool. graphics for free software should be created using
 free software.

I share this view, but I think there is no need to enforce something
like that. Ubuntu uses Balsamiq Mockups for their UI designs, Apache
uses a Confluence wiki, and we build LibreOffice for Windows using
Windows :-)

Why do I say that? Because Aleksandar told me about his tools preference
in advance - and as long is able to read PSD files to a certain extend,
we should aim for data exchange compatibility, not tools
compatibility. I've heard many designers who simply prefer to stick
with their tools ...

[...]

 free software is also about the tools we use to create it.
 so please don't be scared and keep up the great work, but if you can find
 the time (and haven't already done it), check out
 inkscapehttp://www.inkscape.org(extremely powerful FLOSS vector
 graphics editor) and consider using it for
 future designs. vector is better for most kinds of design anyway ;)

I think the keep up the great work sounds great here - we should keep
in mind that Alexandar is very new to the LibreOffice community (free
software communities) in general and he might need a bit time to
understand our rationale and our general aims. That also means the need
for others being able to adapt/extend/rework existing artwork.

Again, I totally share your view Tobias ... so I'd like to invite
Aleksandar (and anybody) to ask questions about free software graphic
tools. An interesting page might be:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/User_Experience/Tools

Cheers,
Christoph




 2011/9/26 Aleksandar devaleksan...@gmail.com
 
  Thank you Charles,
  I really believe that good product design can make huge difference,
  I am part of startup community for more than 3 years now and I worked with
  many entrepreneurs and developers so I understand how important design can
  be.
  I am trying to create graphic that is clean,user friendly and easy to use
  and understand.
  As I already said, LibreOffice  is great project and I am glad to be part
  of
  it.
 
  Cheers,
  Aleksandar
 
  2011/9/26 Charles-H. Schulz charles.sch...@documentfoundation.org
 
   Aleksandar,
  
   I have no artistic ability but I'm inpressed by what you did.
  
   Thank you,
  
   Charles.
   Le 26 sept. 2011 19:48, Aleksandar devaleksan...@gmail.com a écrit :
Thank you.
   
2011/9/26 Vitorio Furusho furu...@openoffice.org
   
Aleksandar,
   
They were excellent.
   
Congratulations.
   
Sincerely,
   
*Furusho, Vitorio*
Ativista de Software Livre, LibreOffice e ODF
ODF Alliance Award
http://www.odfalliance.org/blog/index.php/site/odf_alliance_awards/
Free Software Furusho http://softwarelivre.org/furusho
LibreOffice http://broffice.org/
Membro da The Document Foundation 
   http://www.documentationfoundation.org/

   
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: About the Navigator

2011-09-25 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi Ricardo!

Thanks for your reminder and the reported issues ... I totally forgot
that I even commented in the issues. So there is not much we can do now
but wait a bit (or pinging developers we know well that they will take
care ...).

Cheers,
Christoph

Am Samstag, den 24.09.2011, 22:25 +0200 schrieb RGB ES:
 2011/9/24 Christoph Noack christ...@dogmatux.com
 
  Hi Ricardo, hi Frank!
 
  Am Freitag, den 23.09.2011, 23:38 +0200 schrieb RGB ES:
   2011/9/23 frankt f.inter...@esprit-ouvert.org
  
Hi all,
   
Is the discussion or proposal closed?
  
AFAIK, the discussion is not closed. Maybe forgotten, but not closed ;)
 
  Yep, I think so, too. Do you know whether there is any bug report about
  that behavior, so that we can add the discussion results that time?
 
 
 Well, I filled these ones (they are linked on a previous message):
 
 [UI]Change behaviour for tree view on Writer's Navigator
 https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=36308
 
 [UI]Better interface for Navigator's tree-view
 https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=36309
 
 [EDITING]Insert cross-reference drag-n-drop mode for navigator
 https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=36310
 
 The first one talks about the usability problems with LibO's Navigator, the
 second one is about Cristoph's mock-up and the third one is just a golden
 dream... :)
 



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Re: [libreoffice-design] New web banners. Feedback?

2011-09-25 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi Aleksandar!

Am Sonntag, den 25.09.2011, 16:48 +0200 schrieb Aleksandar:
 Hi Christoph,all,
 I have just uploaded two new files with an exclamation mark
 as David proposed (Thanks to David).

You're great, thanks! :-) Also thanks to David for having a look...

 I updated my wiki page with licence information,sorry about that.
 I hope that will be ok now, if I need to do anything else please
 feel free to tell me.

Thank you - it just came to my mind, since we want to distribute the
graphic, so its better to ask in advance if you agree :-) In the future,
we all should take care that we selected the appropriate licenses when
uploading material (otherwise it can get difficult to track that). 

As we discussed earlier (offlist), I'll forward your banners to the
marketing team for further feedback.

 Also, I want to say Thank you all. Community is great, I really
 enjoy to be part of it and I think LibreOffice is great project.

Thanks - I feel the same way. In any case, please feel free to raise any
question or comment with regard to the LibO community or the Design
Team ... we all do learn step by step.

Cheers,
Christoph

 2011/9/25 Christoph Noack christ...@dogmatux.com
 
  Hi Aleksandar,
 
  Cake4? Seems a very productive bakery :-)
 
  Am Samstag, den 24.09.2011, 22:47 +0200 schrieb Aleksandar:
   I updated my wiki page with new design for cake : Cake4
   http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:See#Our_first_anniversary
   Hope you like it.
   Cheers,
   Aleksandar
 
  Hey, thank you! And good to know that Italo also replied and provided us
  with some feedback and the go.
 
  So, is this the final version? Or are you planning to add an exclamation
  mark as David proposed? (Here, I'm clueless, since English is not my
  native language. But David is heavily involved in LibO documentation and
  text style.)
 
  Another question that needs to be clarified - the license. I had a look
  at the license information of the pictures, but didn't find any. Can you
  please confirm that the work you did / will do for LibreOffice ...
 
 This work is licensed under three licenses, to be used
 alternatively or in combination depending on the user's needs:
   * Creative Commons Attribution Share-Alike 3.0 Unported (CC-by-sa)
   * GNU Lesser General Public License version 3 or any later version
 (LGPL 3+)
   * Mozilla Public License version 1.1 (MPL 1.1),
 
  These are the proposed licenses in the wiki. We need that confirmation,
  so that the LibreOffice community can use and extend your work. Thanks
  in advance!
 
 
  Finally, Aleksandar, thanks a lot for your great contributions so far. I
  really hope you're enjoying your time with us ... the stuff on your user
  page is impressive :-)
 
  Cheers,
  Christoph (who thinks we soon can address the branding refinement)
 
 
 
   2011/9/24 Aleksandar Dev devaleksan...@gmail.com
  
Ok, thanks. I will make changes you and Christoph asked and will update
page with new design.
   
Cheers,
Aleksandar
   
   
2011/9/24 Italo Vignoli italo.vign...@gmail.com
   
Christoph Noack wrote:
   
 May I state a few proposals? I'd remove the text on the cake,
  because it
 is a bit hard to read (and it would move the focus to the 1).
  Maybe
 some tiny triangles can resemble colored sugar decoration? Last:
  the
 chocolate look quite realistic, but very dark ... might a lighter
  color
 (LibO Orange +1) help here?
   
I like the banner, and I agree on the text on the cake which is hard
  to
read. I prefer the white background as I think that the cake and the 1
spring out more neatly, but I leave this to the experts.
   
--
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mobile +39.348.5653829
VoIP +39.02.320621813
skype italovignoli
   
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[libreoffice-design] New Web Banner Proposals by Aleksandar (See)

2011-09-25 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi all,

this post is about getting feedback concerning some new web banner
proposals people are regularly asking for. The creator is Aleksandar
(nick: See) - his first contribution was the visual design for the new
Bug Submission Assistant (see [1], [2]).

Here are the proposals:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/cgi_img_auth.php/9/96/See_banner_ss3.png

http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/cgi_img_auth.php/b/b2/See_banner_ss2.png


Please check whether the banners are okay - marketing-wise. For
feedback, please use either the marketing list (reply to this mail) or
the design list. Since these banner closely follow our branding language
(see later), I suggest to replace the older proposals with these new
ones. So, please tell us whether everything fits (size, format,
claim, ...) ... or not ;-) Comments appreciated...


The banners have already been added to the Marketing Banner Proposals
wiki page:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Marketing/Branding/Banner_Proposals


The banner proposals above have already been discussed on the Design
Mailing list. For an overview over all proposals made so far, see See's
personal wiki page (worth a look, anyway):
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:See#Banners_:_Spread_the_word


Some notes: The banners ...
  * consider the LibreOffice Branding Guidelines
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Marketing/Branding
  * use the LibreOffice Motif Design
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Motif
  * were inspired by the Slogan proposals
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Marketing/Slogan


A big thank you to Aleksandar for his great work and patience.


Cheers,
Christoph

[1] http://dachary.org/?p=886
[2] http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/bug/


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Re: [libreoffice-design] Proposal for Saving Information icons on Status Bar

2011-09-24 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi all,

just wanted to make you aware that the Saving Information icon by
Paulo have been nicely integrated into LibreOffice (just checked in a
daily build).

Speaking for the Design Team, thanks to Dmitry for taking care! :-)
Especially since the other developers mentioned that it was quite some
work - code wise.

More information: https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=39430

Cheers,
Christoph

PS: Dmitry, sorry for sending it a second time ... the first time I sent
it to the old ML address.


Am Montag, den 14.03.2011, 21:59 +0100 schrieb Christoph Noack:
 Hi Kohei, Paulo, all!
 
 Am Montag, den 14.03.2011, 13:26 -0400 schrieb Kohei Yoshida:
  Hi Christoph,
  
  On Sat, 2011-03-12 at 13:23 +0100, Christoph Noack wrote:
   Kohei, would it make sense to turn this into an easy hack?
 
 [...]
 
  Yes.  Feel free to put this into easy hack.  I'll fill in the missing
  bits (Skills etc) later.  But let's put this up on the page first.
 
 Thank you! I was a bit hesitant to change something on my own on that
 page ... :-)
 
 http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Development/Easy_Hacks#Improving_Saving_Information_Icon_in_the_Status_Bar
 
 Paulo, I felt free to add a link to your recent blog posting describing
 the idea. I think it's very helpful for people to look at the images
 instead reading my boring description (only).
 
 Cheers,
 Christoph
 
 




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Re: [libreoffice-design] Flying the ship...

2011-09-24 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi Ivan, hi Bernhard, all!

Am Mittwoch, den 21.09.2011, 21:20 +1200 schrieb Ivan M.:
 Hi Bernhard, all,
 
 On Wed, Sep 21, 2011 at 5:53 AM, Bernhard Dippold
 bernh...@familie-dippold.at wrote:
   [...]
  In case there are no objections and no need for more discussion I'd like to
  start the voting on Thursday (if I'll find the time...)
 
 I don't think you have to worry about finding the time since it seems
 we are already voting!
 
 +1 from me too - welcome back, Christoph!

Well, where to start? 

First, thank you all for the kind welcome back messages. Next, it
feels very good to see all your support concerning the Lead for User
Experience as Bernhard phrased it.

So why might this be useful? I hope I can provide advises concerning the
cooperation within LibreOffice, since I had plenty of opportunities to
talk (or argue *g*) with people across the project. It would be good to
resolve one of the biggest issues I see so far: knowing what is
important/needed, and turning that into visible results. But this
really needs your help ... and your questions.

Next, I hope to bring in my UX experience both from OpenOffice.org and
my day job (I'm doing that for a living, but for different products).
That includes to - together - think about what we want to achieve ...
our strategy. We have so many exciting activities at the moment (e.g.
the recent Writer changes, Björn's research work, ...). And so many good
ideas, some already a bit lost in the mail archive :-\ 

However, my question to Bernhard - when do we consider the voting as
finished? If I remember correctly, Nik summarized the for/against
votes after a few days ... assuming that everybody had a fair chance.
So, please guys, add your opinion / vote ...

Have a nice day!

Christoph

PS: We have some people visiting us ... I think I'll be online again
tomorrow.


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Re: [libreoffice-design] New web banners. Feedback?

2011-09-22 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi Ivan, Aleksandar, all!

Am Donnerstag, den 22.09.2011, 21:46 +1200 schrieb Ivan M.:
 Hi Alexandar, all,
 
 On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 9:52 AM, Aleksandar Dev devaleksan...@gmail.com 
 wrote:
  I created new web banners. I posted them on my new (and only) wiki page:
  http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:See
[...]

 Great work, and welcome to the design team! I agree with others that
 Spring 3 is the most attractive proposal.

Yep, I do agree ... I think Spring 3 (looking at the Spring proposals)
works best concerning our overall branding and has some nifty details.
Although I (again) have to say that's a pleasure to look at all this
work.

How to continue with that? Present that to the marketing team ... wait a
bit ... and derive the real banners?

One thing I'm currently unsure about is whether we can say Windows or
Macintosh without mentioning that these are registered / trademarks.

 I would suggest a subtle drop shadow on the Download Now text.
 For winter, I would suggest using the stylised LibreOffice logo
 (lighter outline with inner shadow effect, just like you have in the
 logo at the bottom-left) and having the text match the green in Winter
 2 (i.e., it should be lighter)

Concerning Winter Season - that reminds me of the very first LibreOffice
download button I've made over a year ago. Does anybody remember that?
It had a download arrow within the document logo that switched to a
bright red heart :-) Unfortunately, people asked to use something more
neutral ... but here it fits very well. 

Since we are at it ... I have been asked by Italo (Aleksandar: he is one
of the TDF media contacts) whether we could provide a web banner for our
first anniversary. It is just a few days from now ...

Here is what he wrote:
I would like to offer a banner to online media willing to help
TDF. Something very simple, with TDF/LibreOffice, and a cake
with one small candle.

Is there any chance that you could come up with something like that? I
don't want to mis-use any of you, but I think that's a great chance to
get some more visibility for LibO and our team.

I don't know what size fits best - Aleksander, Ivan, all - what's common
for that? Some time ago, I collected some sizes on the donation
challenge wiki page:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/FoundationChallenge


Cheers,
Christoph


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Re: [libreoffice-design] New web banners. Feedback?

2011-09-21 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi Aleksander, all!

Wow, thanks for your mail ... don't know where to start. First, your designs 
look very professional, clean and LibreOffice like. Thats amazing for the first 
(and most presumably last) iteration :-)

I assume that we need to check whether people also need smaller web banners, 
since many request came from people wanting to show their support. Like those 
Dowload Firefox buttons ... but here I am not an expert. Anybody with some 
experience?

Next, using your personal wiki page an asking for feedback ... great working 
style.

I already feel a bit sorry being unavailable today (full day workshop, plus 
evening event) ...hear you soon.

Cheers,
Christoph


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Aleksandar Dev devaleksan...@gmail.com schrieb:

As Christoph asked here :
http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/msg03012.html
I created new web banners. I posted them on my new (and only) wiki page:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:See
As this is my first time to post new design here I would like to get
feedback.
So please feel free to write, any feedback is welcome.
Thanks,
Aleksandar

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Re: [libreoffice-design] [Fwd: [Bug 41000] FILEOPEN - Filter Selection dialog needs structure and preselection]

2011-09-20 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi Astron, hi all!

Astron, thanks a lot for picking this up :-) Very cool mockup ... how
did you make it - it looks like being a LibO native one.

https://bugs.freedesktop.org/attachment.cgi?id=51412

May I comment your numbered notes?
  * (1) Yep, usually LibO tries to be rather neutral ... the OOo
style guide LibO is based on doesn't say it directly, but
comments decisions with stuff like the style is clear and
professional, not chummy or informal.
  * (2) You're referring to Document ... tough question. I don't
know whether Document Type (left side) and File Format is an
improvement.
  * (3) I also like Open better, since it clearly says what will
happen - much better than OK. By the way, the very last dialog
styleguide (attempt) put the Help on the left side ...

Additionally:
  * I'm thinking about the window title. Gnome says Name of command
that opened the dialog, but that doesn't work here. Maybe File
Format Selection explains what it is about?
  * The dialog has now a very good structure - but might it be
convenient for people to have an All on the left side that
contains all file types?

Thanks a lot!

First and last mail for today, since my day has been incredibly busy ...
see you tomorrow. Hopefully :-)

Cheers,
Christoph


Am Montag, den 19.09.2011, 22:30 +0200 schrieb Christoph Noack:
 Hi all,
 
 since I lack some time ... could anybody pick this up and work out a
 straightforward proposal? That would be cool!
 
 Personally, I don't know what the technical constraints are, so you
 might need to ask the developers what kind of information is available
 by the filters (their capabilities, e.g. I'm a pixel graphics filter.)
 
 Cheers,
 Christoph
 
 
  Weitergeleitete Nachricht 
  Von: bugzilla-dae...@freedesktop.org
  An: christoph.spamfo...@dogmatux.com
  Betreff: [Bug 41000] FILEOPEN - Filter Selection dialog needs
  structure and preselection
  Datum: Mon, 19 Sep 2011 05:34:58 -0700 (PDT)
  
  https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=41000
  
  Rainer Bielefeld libreoff...@bielefeldundbuss.de changed:
  
 What|Removed |Added
  
  Summary|FILEOPEN - Filter Selection |FILEOPEN - Filter Selection
 |dialog too overwhelming,|dialog needs structure and
 |not user-friendly   |preselection
  Version|LibO 3.4.3 release  |LibO 3.3.0 Beta2
Status Whiteboard||CONFIRMED
 Severity|normal  |enhancement
   CC||christoph.spamforme@dogmatu
 ||x.com,
 ||LibreOffice@bielefeldundbus
 ||s.de
  
  --- Comment #2 from Rainer Bielefeld libreoff...@bielefeldundbuss.de 
  2011-09-19 05:34:57 PDT ---
  That is some OOo heritage. Indeed, sort order is without any cognizable 
  order
  and too long. 
  
  There should be sort order and a preselector show only xyz documents for
  particular file types leaving an option to see the complete list.
  
  @christoph:
  Have there ever been thoughts concerning this dialog?
  
 
 
 



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[libreoffice-design] [Fwd: [Bug 41000] FILEOPEN - Filter Selection dialog needs structure and preselection]

2011-09-19 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi all,

since I lack some time ... could anybody pick this up and work out a
straightforward proposal? That would be cool!

Personally, I don't know what the technical constraints are, so you
might need to ask the developers what kind of information is available
by the filters (their capabilities, e.g. I'm a pixel graphics filter.)

Cheers,
Christoph


 Weitergeleitete Nachricht 
 Von: bugzilla-dae...@freedesktop.org
 An: christoph.spamfo...@dogmatux.com
 Betreff: [Bug 41000] FILEOPEN - Filter Selection dialog needs
 structure and preselection
 Datum: Mon, 19 Sep 2011 05:34:58 -0700 (PDT)
 
 https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=41000
 
 Rainer Bielefeld libreoff...@bielefeldundbuss.de changed:
 
What|Removed |Added
 
 Summary|FILEOPEN - Filter Selection |FILEOPEN - Filter Selection
|dialog too overwhelming,|dialog needs structure and
|not user-friendly   |preselection
 Version|LibO 3.4.3 release  |LibO 3.3.0 Beta2
   Status Whiteboard||CONFIRMED
Severity|normal  |enhancement
  CC||christoph.spamforme@dogmatu
||x.com,
||LibreOffice@bielefeldundbus
||s.de
 
 --- Comment #2 from Rainer Bielefeld libreoff...@bielefeldundbuss.de 
 2011-09-19 05:34:57 PDT ---
 That is some OOo heritage. Indeed, sort order is without any cognizable order
 and too long. 
 
 There should be sort order and a preselector show only xyz documents for
 particular file types leaving an option to see the complete list.
 
 @christoph:
 Have there ever been thoughts concerning this dialog?
 



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[libreoffice-design] LibreOffice Presentation Templates

2011-09-18 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi Alexander!

Am Sonntag, den 18.09.2011, 00:02 +0200 schrieb Alexander Wilms:
 Hi Christoph,
 
 nice to to see you 'back' :).

Hehe, thanks :-)

 It just came to my mind that I joined this mailing list some time ago to 
 ask for a template repository and and whether you could upload your 
 template for the LibreOffice Conference.
 As the extension/template-center is now online I wondered whether you 
 could upload those three templates (if Kevin agrees regarding his 
 template): 
 http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/ConferenceTemplates. 

Oh, this is a most excellent idea ... I totally missed that opportunity
until now :-) However, I propose to have a slightly different
procedure ... e.g. the template by Kevin is rather a presentation (the
master pages are not used, or still contain other objects).

Thus, concerning the conference template (Paris 2011), I'd like keep
only one - to make it easy for the presenters to pick the right one.
But, of course, there are other conferences and opportunities [1] to
spread the word for LibO, so I've made a neutral template (exchanging
the Paris logo with the LibreOffice community logo, adapting meta-data
and documentation).

So, both the LibreOffice Conference 2011 Presentation Template and the
LibreOffice Community Template are ready to be uploaded ... currently
I'm trying to trial-and-error the Template Repository. I hope to have
some first review result as soon as possible to upload the first
template.

 Do you think the branding should be removed beforehand? Or should maybe 
 both - the branded and the unbranded Version be uploaded?
 I could remove the motif etc. if you don't mind.

Mmh, if we still talk about templates for the LibreOffice community,
then the (community, non-TDF) logo and the motif are visual items agreed
upon. If your adaptations aim for a more general use ... sure ... then I
think its essential to remove them. So, please go ahead ...

Cheers,
Christoph

[1] A link sent by Drew ...
http://www.scribd.com/doc/63955944/Presentation-Portuguese-IT-and-LibreOffice-Open-Manual-%E2%80%93-Because-our-Schools-need-options]


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Re: [libreoffice-design] Introduction

2011-09-18 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi Aleksandar!

Nice to see you on our Design mailing list ...

Am Sonntag, den 18.09.2011, 12:22 +0200 schrieb Aleksandar Dev:
 Hi everyone,
 I am new to this so I hope I am doing it right.

Absolutely! :-)

[...]
 I would be glad to be part of LibreOffice design team and project.
 As I said I am new to this kind of work organisation but I am ready to start
 working on design so if you need
 anything to be designed or just want to say Hi, please feel free to contact
 me

Thanks a lot for your offer - we'll do that, of course. On the other
hand, sometimes we get requests from other community members - please
consider to jump in as you like. If you have any questions, or need some
historical background, we're ready to help.

To give you three examples what matters at the moment ... one thing
still missing for the community are web banners that spread the word
for LibreOffice. Nobody found the time yet to work on that, although
people regularly ask. The most recent ones (following our branding
language) are here:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/FoundationChallenge#LibreOffice_Frontpage

Another thing that will get important in the next time ... all the
LibreOffice graphics in the software and the installer. That's
important, since we need to distinguish whether a community member made
the software available (thus: using a logo without the subline The
Document Foundation) and one version with the logo. I hope that we can
ask the development to harmonize Splash Screen, About Box (...) first.
And, our logo itself does have some issues that need to be addressed ...
mmmh, still on my todo-list to discuss that here and ask for help.

The third example - Ivan mentioned that he'll work on Download page
improvements in the next time. Since this is a rather big task, maybe
you both can work together (doesn't know whether this makes sense). Here
is what others and I've done so far (incl. a website design from an
usability point-of-view):
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Download_Page

I hope this helps a bit ... anything that sounds interesting to you?

Cheers,
Christoph


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[libreoffice-design] Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Bug Submission Assistant : status report

2011-09-17 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi Aleksandar, Loic, all!

Am Samstag, den 17.09.2011, 17:20 +0200 schrieb Loic Dachary:
 Hi,
 
 Even though Aleksandar completed his contract work
  ( 
 http://99designs.com/web-design/contests/bug-submission-web-form-design-wanted-libreoffice-95945
  )
 as shown at
 http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Bug_Submission_Assistant_-_ToDo#Web_design
 he kindly agreed to discuss on this list about your request. 
 
 I'll let him speak for himself now :-)
 
 Welcome Aleksandar.

Yes, a very warm welcome from my side as well - welcome to LibreOffice!

Before I start, I'd like to thank you for providing the BSA artwork and
having the patience to listen to our questions and comments concerning
the branding stuff. Especially, since we finally need to put everything
in one place ... :-)

Since Loic CCed the Design Mailing list, let's shed a bit light on that.
The LibreOffice Design team consists of volunteers who work on User
Experience (e.g. Usability) and Visual Design topics. Personally, I'm
more the interaction design guy ... so your support was highly
appreciated (thanks to Loic for organizing that).

If you want to get in touch with us, here is the still drafty Design
Team wiki page - there you'll also find information for subscribing to
our mailing list (if you like):
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design

That's all from my side ...

Cheers,
Christoph



 On 09/16/2011 11:33 PM, Loic Dachary wrote: 
  On 09/16/2011 11:11 PM, Christoph Noack wrote:
   Rationale: Bugs aren't funny, but for our website it would help to have
   a visual anchor that tells the user bug this way, please. Furthermore,
   a hiqh quality graphic lets us appear more professional ... although it
   is still the same product (note: users tend to be more forgiving, if the
   product - the BSA - is a pleasure to use)
   
   Request: Create an graphic that can be used to refer to bug reporting
   for a) in the product LibreOffice, b) the bug submitting assistant, c)
   the feedback selection website. If the detail level is mid and the
   file type vector (SVG), then we can adapt and tweak it afterwards.
   
   Visual Design Hints:
 * Primary: Consider the Tango Desktop Icons styleguides
 * Secondary: Consider the LibreOffice branding guidelines
   
   Proposal: I don't have any proposal for a metaphor ... :-\
   
   Examples:
 * If I remember correctly, Ubuntu uses a black exclamation mark on
   an orange explosion callout sign.
 * Bugzilla uses/used:
   http://www.brightcreative.com/i/projects/bugzilla-lg.gif
 * I once created a cracked note to symbolize the work in
   progress when we've worked on the Writer comments feature:
   
   http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Notes2_Development_Releases
[...]


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[libreoffice-design] Private stuff: It seems that I'm back :-)

2011-09-17 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi all,

a few months ago I've said that I will be offline for some time ...
because of very good family reasons [1] *g*

In the last weeks, I found myself involved in numerous topics, bug
reports, discussions on libo-ux-advise, the Munich Hackfest, some LibO
conference preparation, and SC stuff. It seems that I'm somehow back ...
and I'm enjoying it (and my family, of course).

Still, I'm unsure how much time will be available - so far it works
rather well. My personal goal is to slowly but steadily continue to work
with you all on the items we've listed on the WhatWeNeed page [2]. Some
points have been addressed so far, many points are still open ...

Cheers,
Christoph

[1] 
http://luxate.blogspot.com/2011/05/status-of-design-team-kick-off-and.html

[2]
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Kick-Off/WhatWeNeed


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Re: [libreoffice-design] Introduction

2011-09-16 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi Alex, Nathaniel!

Somehow missed to respond to this mail ... thanks for the reminder,
Alex ;-)

Nathaniel, welcome to the team ... if you have any questions or
comments, then please go ahead :-)

Cheers,
Christoph

Am Freitag, den 16.09.2011, 22:02 +0200 schrieb Alexander Wilms:
 Hi Nate,
 
 Welcome to the team :)
 
 Alex
 
 Am 14.09.2011 17:39, schrieb Nathaniel Schultz:
  Heh, I joined the lists a month or two back, but work got hairy, and 
  then it ended. Suffice it to say, I was distracted.
 
  My applicable background is primarily user-interface design and 
  programming. (I'm also a bit of a data guy and my degrees are in 
  bioengineering, so I don't actually consider myself a programmer, or 
  even UI designer, but I've done both.)
 
 
  I've been doing things with Star Office  kin for quite some time, and 
  switched to Libre Office this year. (What can I say? SVG support sold 
  me. I hate juggling resolutions on bitmaps in documents.)
 
  One thing I've noticed in OO.o and friends is the continual 
  improvement. When I wrote my thesis, my school used some really picky 
  formatting rules. In OO, The only way to consistently achieve that was 
  manually tweaking the page and paragraph formatting. I ended up using 
  another word processor. Now, the solution would be tricky  ugly, but 
  it's possible.
 
  (The school's rules have now relaxed considerably, too: Now that Libre 
  Office can do the picky stuff, the new grad student don't have to.)
 
 
  In many significant ways, I consider Libre Office already superior to 
  MS Office, but I'd like to assist making that unconditional. I've been 
  pondering a few issues, and actually have a few specific comments to 
  lay on you shortly.
 
  -Nate Schultz
 
 
 
 



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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Bug Submission Assistant : status report

2011-09-16 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi Loic, all!

Am Freitag, den 16.09.2011, 00:07 +0200 schrieb Loic Dachary:
 Hi,
  As an additional note - do we get the source code to work on further
  refinements / changes after the challenge is over?
 
 I will provide the deliverables as a layered XCF file and it will be under 
 GPLv3+ as the code.

That's great - XCF and SVG files is something we can easily work with
(whilst SVG provides a bit more flexibility).

* See: My favorite so far ...

Oh, See already has made an update - excellent progress and very close
of what I had in mind :-)
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/cgi_img_auth.php/7/75/BSAsee01.jpeg

[...]

* but:
* The text BugText does not fit into our
  branding scheme

Has been corrected. The current font decision resides here:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Marketing/Branding#Fonts

* Furthermore, the textured background for
  Submit and the header is a bit different to what
  we use ... if possible, a green on (different)
  green motif should be used for large areas

Already fixed. The motif examples might have helped here...

http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/cgi_img_auth.php/7/7b/ROUGH_postcard_PRESENTED.jpg

http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/cgi_img_auth.php/b/b3/ScatterInContext_bunch.jpg

* the dashed lines do not fit and adds visual
  noise
* the Submit button is something good -
  red/orange is a warning color (in most
  countries), e.g. blue would fit better

Also fixed, looks very nice and is far better from the usability
point-of-view; colors according:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Marketing/Branding#Colors

 Could you please add URLs (as precise as possible) explaining the relevant 
 part of the branding scheme for the text or the required textured background 
 ? I've noticed that they don't have time to research or read more than what 
 is strictly necessary.
 
 I don't understand what you say about the dashed lines. Do you mean they 
 don't fit the branding scheme and should be removed ?

To be honest, we've never decided on the user of whatever lines ... so
there is neither a best practice nor a guidelines. But, dashed lines are
something that catch attention - good if that's required, less good if
the surrounding elements do have priority (here, the line was just a
divider).

And for the sake of completeness - the branding page also covers a
temporary description of the intended visual design:
  * Clean: The visual design is straight and clean. Reduced
geometric elements are combined to visualize the intended
message.
  * Balanced: The visual design avoids any extremes. For example,
neither extreme coloring nor intensive surface shining effects
are used.
  * Friendly: The visual design creates a smooth and joyful
environment. For example, rounded corners and the fresh color
palette are used.

Nik, who puts lots of work into the motif and the website, added some
time ago use lots of white.

 I communicated your remarks to see anyway but it would help for me to know 
 more ;-)

  By the way, I don't know whether it is possible, but maybe the designers
  could add a large problem icon based on the Tango icons set (default
  in LibO)?
  http://tango.freedesktop.org/Tango_Icon_Theme_Guidelines
 
 Could you please phrase this a self contained request ? I'm sure see will 
 agree to it if time allows.

Okay, but only if it fits, since I don't have any clue how binding the
99designs work description is.

Rationale: Bugs aren't funny, but for our website it would help to have
a visual anchor that tells the user bug this way, please. Furthermore,
a hiqh quality graphic lets us appear more professional ... although it
is still the same product (note: users tend to be more forgiving, if the
product - the BSA - is a pleasure to use)

Request: Create an graphic that can be used to refer to bug reporting
for a) in the product LibreOffice, b) the bug submitting assistant, c)
the feedback selection website. If the detail level is mid and the
file type vector (SVG), then we can adapt and tweak it afterwards.

Visual Design Hints:
  * Primary: Consider the Tango Desktop Icons styleguides
  * Secondary: Consider the LibreOffice branding guidelines

Proposal: I don't have any proposal for a metaphor ... :-\

Examples:
  * If I remember correctly, Ubuntu uses a black exclamation mark on
an orange explosion callout sign.
  * Bugzilla uses/used:
http://www.brightcreative.com/i/projects/bugzilla-lg.gif
  * I once created a cracked note to symbolize the work in
progress when we've worked on the Writer comments feature:
http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Notes2_Development_Releases


Re: [libreoffice-design] Future libreoffice.org web page: design request

2011-09-16 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi all,

after my rather lengthly explanation yesterday, here is an structural
example (based on See's design) of how it could look like:
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/PLZvWTs1NiL_w3auPyfUjA?feat=directlink

Cheers,
Christoph

Am Freitag, den 16.09.2011, 00:40 +0200 schrieb Christoph Noack:
 Good evening Loic!
 
 18 minutes to go before tomorrow gets today ;-)
 
 Am Mittwoch, den 14.09.2011, 12:57 +0200 schrieb Loic Dachary:
  On 09/14/2011 01:01 AM, Christoph Noack wrote:
   Hi Loic, hi all!
  
   I've refined the interaction design a bit and uploaded it to the wiki -
 
 [...]
 
  I noticed the next button and the fact that each step would be
  displayed on its own.
  I assume that the user would be able to click on a previous step to
  amend its choice. Is that right ?
 
 Yep, otherwise the progress indicator on the left side isn't that much
 needed ... the Next approach helps to slice the required information
 in reasonable chunks being (hopefully) more understandable, and it
 ensures a constant screen height. Of course, there are other
 solutions ... but not knowing exactly the workflow and the questions, I
 assumed this to work best.
 
  If it is the case, let say (s)he changes the component. How would
  (s)he be notified that a new subcomponent must be chosen ?
  In the case of a single page displaying all the information, I though
  there would be an error message + red border around the missing field.
  With a multipage display I can't picture how it would work
 
 Okay, there are some assumptions on my side, so let's go through some
 use cases. I lack the time to do the example graphics, so I hope some
 descriptions are sufficient to understand it. I hope something like that
 can be done technically ...
 
 The problem:
   * We have procedure of several steps,
   * the procedure might be tree like instead of linear,
   * (future) steps may be added when working with the wizard
   * (future) steps may also be removed when working with the wizard,
   * the user might choose to go back and to change options,
   * selected steps need to be checked for consistency/correctness,
   * assumption: the user can only continue to the next step, if the
 current step (and the steps before) are valid.
 
 So, we need to introduce some states for each step (the stuff in the
 squared brackets will be used for further description):
   * not available
   * [  1  ] a step with number 1 not worked on yet
   * [ 1 ] a step with number 1 already currently being worked on
   * [ *1* ] a step with number 1 already finished
   * [*1*] a step with number 1 already finished (before),
 currently being worked on (because user visits it again)
   * [ ... ] a placeholder for one or more steps not worked on yet
 and not known yet (because we have to implement the tree like
 procedure)
   * [ --- ] a step not worked on yet after [ ... ]; step number
 cannot be calculated, but the action is known
 
 Example:
 [ *1* ] Preparation
 [ *2* ] Component
 [ 3 ] Sub-Component
 [  4  ] Version
 [ ... ] 
 [ --- ] Description
 [ --- ] Submit
 [ --- ] Attachment
 
 It might look overly complex, but I'm sure you know such indications
 from websites and other software. Let's dig into it ... the use cases
 (each of the cases starts with the conditions in the example above).
 
 Current: The user works on step 3, he successfully completed steps 1 and
 2. The next step 4 requires to chose the LibO version - but this may
 have impact on insert_reason_here, so we may need additional step(s)
 [...]. Therefore, we skip the numbers for Description, Submit and
 Attachment.
 
 Go back: User goes back to step 2 but doesn't change anything.
   * [ *1* ] Preparation
   * [*2*] Component
   * [  3  ] Sub-Component
   * [  4  ] Version
   * [ ... ] 
   * [ --- ] Description
   * [ --- ] Submit
   * [ --- ] Attachment
 Note: If the user changes the component in step 2, then (in our
 constructed case) all future steps are dependent and get set to not
 worked on yet.
 
 Go forward: The user choses to have a look at one of the steps not yet
 done. Here we have two alternatives (technical constraints will decide
 here):
  1. We don't offer to go there (inactive button)
  2. We show the BSA page, but the whole page content is inactive
 
 Add steps: The user selects the sub-component in step 3 and confirms.
 Now we are sure that we need two additional steps - the workflow is
 linear now. So we can add step 5 and 6, and the remaining steps can get
 numbers as well: 
   * [ *1* ] Preparation 
   * [ *2* ] Component 
   * [ *3* ] Sub-Component 
   * [ 4 ] Version 
   * [  5  ] Whateveroption
   * [  6  ] Evenanotherwhateveroption
   * [  7  ] Description 
   * [  8  ] Submit 
   * [  9  ] Attachment
 Note: This behavior is similar

[libreoffice-design] Personal Summary: Hackfest 2011

2011-09-15 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi all,

since I think its interesting for the Design Team, I've wanted to shed
some (personal) light on what happened at the Hackfest in Munich two
weeks ago. So maybe some inspiration for other topics ... or simply some
entertaining. Up to you to decide :-)

http://luxate.blogspot.com/2011/09/personal-hackfest-2011-summary.html

Cheers,
Christoph


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[libreoffice-design] Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Bug Submission Assistant : status report

2011-09-15 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi Lic, hi all!

CCing the Design Team ... please reply to the QA list.

Am Donnerstag, den 15.09.2011, 22:12 +0200 schrieb Loic Dachary:
 Hi,
 
 Today was mostly about the web design. There are three candidates
 designs
 (http://99designs.com/web-design/contests/bug-submission-web-form-design-wanted-libreoffice-95945)
  that I just uploaded at
 http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Bug_Submission_Assistant_-_ToDo#Deliverables
 I would really like your input. If nothing else a simple I better
 like this URL will suffice.

Oh, thanks for the links ... we should really avoid to let the BSA look
much better than LibreOffice itself ;-)

To be serious, I'd like to judge on the basis of our branding guidelines
and some usability findings - that makes choosing the right one a bit
easier.

 When commenting on these proposals, please bear in mind that
  a) it's a contest and only one designer will be paid,
  b) the deadline of the contest is in 48 hours,
  c) the prize is USD$495 (thanks to Free Software Foundation France for 
 funding this work).

Very cool - I wasn't aware that FSF is so kind to fund this :-)

As an additional note - do we get the source code to work on further
refinements / changes after the challenge is over?

 When interacting with the web designers, I heavily relied on Christoph
 Noack interaction schematics
 ( http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/cgi_img_auth.php/d/df/BSAinteraction.png 
 ) with one noticeable difference : I stick to a one page application instead 
 of implementing the Next button allowing for multi pages, because the multi 
 page interaction has not been defined yet.

Hope to do that today ... at least a bit.

 My goal is to integrate the web design that will be available in two
 days so that the minimal version of the bug submission assistant is
 better looking than it currently is. My dream is that the web design
 produced will be useful for the evolution of the bug submission
 assistant.

Okay, so here is what I think - basically each of the designs needs
tweaking to really fit, but one fits more than the other:

  * Hitron: While quite similar to the LibreOffice UI, the texts are
hard to read (accessibility) and the tree views are incorrect
(usability). Furthermore, it doesn't really fit to the branding
guidelines stating e.g. Friendly: The visual design creates a
smooth and joyful environment. For example, rounded corners and
the fresh color palette are used..
  * Iva: I think it fits a bit better from the visual POV, although
I've found some usability issues. For example, the captions (the
green bubbles) might look like buttons for some - the closed
design does not refer to the input fields. Furthermore, the
grouping via the gray background is sometimes a bit strange
(doesn't include that should be grouped). Furthermore, the
information element (orange) in the lower right is too far away
from the name/password input ... people might not notice it.
  * See: My favorite so far ...
  * because:
  * everything is grouped in a box ... easy to
understand what belongs together
  * the understandability of the sequence steps
(left side) is much better than in the last
iteration
  * but:
  * The text BugText does not fit into our
branding scheme
  * Furthermore, the textured background for
Submit and the header is a bit different to what
we use ... if possible, a green on (different)
green motif should be used for large areas
  * the dashed lines do not fit and adds visual
noise
  * the Submit button is something good -
red/orange is a warning color (in most
countries), e.g. blue would fit better

We should See whether some of these things could be resolved ... then
we get close to perfectionism ;-)

By the way, I don't know whether it is possible, but maybe the designers
could add a large problem icon based on the Tango icons set (default
in LibO)?
http://tango.freedesktop.org/Tango_Icon_Theme_Guidelines

[...]

Hope this helped a bit ...

Cheers,
Christoph


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Re: [libreoffice-design] Future libreoffice.org web page: design request

2011-09-15 Thread Christoph Noack
Good evening Loic!

18 minutes to go before tomorrow gets today ;-)

Am Mittwoch, den 14.09.2011, 12:57 +0200 schrieb Loic Dachary:
 On 09/14/2011 01:01 AM, Christoph Noack wrote:
  Hi Loic, hi all!
 
  I've refined the interaction design a bit and uploaded it to the wiki -

[...]

 I noticed the next button and the fact that each step would be
 displayed on its own.
 I assume that the user would be able to click on a previous step to
 amend its choice. Is that right ?

Yep, otherwise the progress indicator on the left side isn't that much
needed ... the Next approach helps to slice the required information
in reasonable chunks being (hopefully) more understandable, and it
ensures a constant screen height. Of course, there are other
solutions ... but not knowing exactly the workflow and the questions, I
assumed this to work best.

 If it is the case, let say (s)he changes the component. How would
 (s)he be notified that a new subcomponent must be chosen ?
 In the case of a single page displaying all the information, I though
 there would be an error message + red border around the missing field.
 With a multipage display I can't picture how it would work

Okay, there are some assumptions on my side, so let's go through some
use cases. I lack the time to do the example graphics, so I hope some
descriptions are sufficient to understand it. I hope something like that
can be done technically ...

The problem:
  * We have procedure of several steps,
  * the procedure might be tree like instead of linear,
  * (future) steps may be added when working with the wizard
  * (future) steps may also be removed when working with the wizard,
  * the user might choose to go back and to change options,
  * selected steps need to be checked for consistency/correctness,
  * assumption: the user can only continue to the next step, if the
current step (and the steps before) are valid.

So, we need to introduce some states for each step (the stuff in the
squared brackets will be used for further description):
  * not available
  * [  1  ] a step with number 1 not worked on yet
  * [ 1 ] a step with number 1 already currently being worked on
  * [ *1* ] a step with number 1 already finished
  * [*1*] a step with number 1 already finished (before),
currently being worked on (because user visits it again)
  * [ ... ] a placeholder for one or more steps not worked on yet
and not known yet (because we have to implement the tree like
procedure)
  * [ --- ] a step not worked on yet after [ ... ]; step number
cannot be calculated, but the action is known

Example:
[ *1* ] Preparation
[ *2* ] Component
[ 3 ] Sub-Component
[  4  ] Version
[ ... ] 
[ --- ] Description
[ --- ] Submit
[ --- ] Attachment

It might look overly complex, but I'm sure you know such indications
from websites and other software. Let's dig into it ... the use cases
(each of the cases starts with the conditions in the example above).

Current: The user works on step 3, he successfully completed steps 1 and
2. The next step 4 requires to chose the LibO version - but this may
have impact on insert_reason_here, so we may need additional step(s)
[...]. Therefore, we skip the numbers for Description, Submit and
Attachment.

Go back: User goes back to step 2 but doesn't change anything.
  * [ *1* ] Preparation
  * [*2*] Component
  * [  3  ] Sub-Component
  * [  4  ] Version
  * [ ... ] 
  * [ --- ] Description
  * [ --- ] Submit
  * [ --- ] Attachment
Note: If the user changes the component in step 2, then (in our
constructed case) all future steps are dependent and get set to not
worked on yet.

Go forward: The user choses to have a look at one of the steps not yet
done. Here we have two alternatives (technical constraints will decide
here):
 1. We don't offer to go there (inactive button)
 2. We show the BSA page, but the whole page content is inactive

Add steps: The user selects the sub-component in step 3 and confirms.
Now we are sure that we need two additional steps - the workflow is
linear now. So we can add step 5 and 6, and the remaining steps can get
numbers as well: 
  * [ *1* ] Preparation 
  * [ *2* ] Component 
  * [ *3* ] Sub-Component 
  * [ 4 ] Version 
  * [  5  ] Whateveroption
  * [  6  ] Evenanotherwhateveroption
  * [  7  ] Description 
  * [  8  ] Submit 
  * [  9  ] Attachment
Note: This behavior is similar for removing steps.
Note: The bullet points show the most simple linear use case we will
implement now, I assume.


I hope that explains most of the behavior - I hope some of the basic
ideas came through (and hopefully I did not make too many mistakes). 

Let's see how to transform that into visual feedback ... using [1] as a
reference.
  * [  1  ] shown small number in small circle, semi-transparent

Re: [libreoffice-design] Future libreoffice.org web page: design request

2011-09-14 Thread Christoph Noack
Hi all!

Short mobile reply: most of the questions can be resolved easily, but it 
requires some compromises and some interactive handling of the BSA. But not 
today...

Note: all interested people should have a look at the libo-qa list for 
technical updates.

See you!
Christoph
-- 
Sent via mobile...



Loic Dachary l...@dachary.org schrieb:

On 09/14/2011 01:01 AM, Christoph Noack wrote:
 Hi Loic, hi all!

 I've refined the interaction design a bit and uploaded it to the wiki -
 replacing the file you've uploaded for me (thanks!):
Hi,

 http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Bug_Submission_Assistant_-_ToDo#Web_design

 Comments on the new version:
 * It is still a draft ...
 * I refined the structure so that it matches better with the
 design proposal you've send to me (navigation on the left side,
 more dominant header).
 * Added a few more steps and thought a bit how things could be
 explained in a rather user-friendly language (whereas I tried to
 be as understandable as possible until the bug report assistant
 is entered).

I noticed the next button and the fact that each step would be displayed on 
its own.
I assume that the user would be able to click on a previous step to amend its 
choice. Is that right ?
If it is the case, let say (s)he changes the component. How would (s)he be 
notified that a new subcomponent must be chosen ?
In the case of a single page displaying all the information, I though there 
would be an error message + red border around the missing field.
With a multipage display I can't picture how it would work
 * I've tried to follow your current workflow, added snippets
 provided by Michael and Rainer ... and considered getting help
 and joining a user survey. However, the essential part bug
 report would also work stand-alone.
 * The structure contains a lot of Full Description elements -
 added for scalability reasons, if the normal field size is too
 small. So, they can be removed if not needed.
I'm not sure what you're referring to. Are there the Read on... links ?
 * Personally, I think the structure is just a contain to add the
 real workflow like the one by Michael. I don't know what's
 currently planned, but it would provide more guidance (asking
 for crashes, rendering fidelity ...).
I suppose the bug report will eventually be a tree of decisions. Because of that
it won't be possible to display all the steps in advance on the leftmost menu. 
But
for now it is and changing later should not be too much of a problem.
 * I've left some placeholders due to missing time and missing
 knowledge, here it would be great if the others could jump in to
 help us finalize the work.
 * I might have missed some (or many) details, since I've tried to
 avoid reading further mails this evening ... aehm ... night :-)
 * And, grr, already found some caption mistakes after
 uploading ... but that doesn't affect the concept.

 Feedback appreciated ... :-)

There are two technical issues that impact the user experience.

a) the fact that the bug assistant cannot register a new user (this has been 
covered extensively already and there is nothing to add, I think)
b) the fact that bugzilla only allows for an attachment once the bug is 
created. It means that no attachment can be required to the user *before* the 
bug is submitted. Of course, the bug assistant could hide this from the user. 
For instance the bug could be submitted just before the first attachment is 
required from him. However, since the goal of the bug submission assistant is 
to reduce the number of bugs that are poorly described, this should be done 
only after there is enough information in the bug report, so that even if the 
user gives up before attaching the document the created bug report is useable.

It is possible to workaround this limitation (attachments). However that 
implies the creation and maintainance of a server side temporary cache for 
attachments. This is not complex, but it adds a new layer to the bug submission 
assistant. It currently is client side only and there are no server side part. 
I'm happy to implement it if you think it's worth the trouble but I wanted to 
let you know what it entails, technically.
 Since this mail is send to the QA list / Design list as well, I'll keep
 most of the discussion we had so far.

I'm expecting proposals from a web designer participating in the following 
contest
http://99designs.com/web-design/contests/bug-submission-web-form-design-wanted-libreoffice-95945/brief
The work you've done with 
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:BSAinteraction.png makes it a lot 
easier for them to understand what's going on. Much easier than playing with 
the live example.

Cheers
 Am Dienstag, den 13.09.2011, 10:01 +0200 schrieb Loic Dachary:
 On 09/13/2011 12:44 AM, Christoph Noack wrote:
 [...]
 So I've started to read most of the specs lying around and tried to
 understand the motivation by Rainer and Michael. Next, I've tried you
 bug report assistant and read the mails

  1   2   3   4   >