Re: [libreoffice-design] Topic for design team to investigate: Content hosting consolidation on ask.libreoffice.org

[Maarten Brouwers (murb)]

Hi Cor,

> My impression is not that people in this discussion think that it will
> be easy per see.

I got a bit different impression, and still see the extensive requirements doc 
(also the new one) highly contrasting with what I read as the idea of ‘just 
start iterating from ask.libreoffice.org ’ (I 
know, no-one said that as simply). Sure you can do your bookkeeping in Writer, 
no need for Calc (or Base), but I just wonder if you should even considering 
starting with Writer.

> Since there are some advantages on Askbot, and the fact that boosting
> the existing extensions site to a certain level somehow didn't work, we

I’d suggest we first start with ’somehow’, much of what is specced is already 
working to some extend.

- Lack of integration with LibreOffice? -> Create an API on top of the current 
database and integrate it with LibreOffice (another thing that I guess would be 
hard to realize with a foundation based on Askbot)
- Lack of downloaders? -> 
   - Maybe the site wasn’t looking professional enough? 
   - Lack of discoverability, where to find a link to the extensions-site 
(Under “Discover?", that’s where you start before you’ve downloaded 
LibreOffice, not when you’re using it)
   - Maybe the screenshots were too small to even get an idea of what they’re 
getting?
   - Maybe the focus on ’new’ instead of ‘popular' made people wary of the 
quality of what is on offer?
   - Maybe the majority of the users don’t even care as much about extensions 
as much as we’d hope they do, and users don’t expect to find templates there as 
well?
- Lack of contributors? -> All of the above + Maybe a function of the lack of 
downloaders? (no reward in creating & maintaining stuff that is not being used 
as much as you’d hoped for?)
- Lack of moderators? -> All of the above?

I really doubt that OAuth or not has anything to do with it. Localisation, 
probably yes.

g.,


Maarten
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Topic for design team to investigate: Content hosting consolidation on ask.libreoffice.org

[Maarten Brouwers (murb)]

Hi Bjoern,

> That -- and the fact that we have 45.000 accounts on it -- are the reason I
> brought up Askbot. Content and accounts are the things that are hard earned 
> on a
> platform, maintainers and moderators are a bit easier, but still hard. The
> pure technical platform is the easiest part.

I wonder how important having existing accounts is for an extension site. I’d 
like to be convinced otherwise, but I think that a usable submission & 
maintenance process will convince people to contribute their extensions. A more 
prominent call for volunteers could help registering the few people needed for 
occasional quality assurance (which with all security threats these days is not 
something you want to do with simply up and down votes [1]). Registering for 
one more account is the least part of creating a good extension / template 
(although it would be a nice to have if you wouldn’t have to). Big exception 
where every hassle of creating accounts might hold back user contributions back 
is feedback from users (star-ratings / comments / up/down-votes). Maybe the ask 
libreoffice org platform could help there (like discourse can be used to allow 
for discussion on pages), but I strongly believe that getting the UX right for 
a good extension website is the hard part, which also requires quite some 
technical skill if you build something like that [2] from scratch (building a 
template site from a Q/A platform is basically building from scratch, support 
for templates is just scratching the surface of what is needed [again, 2]).

g.,


Maarten

[1] I wonder to what extend installing extensions can be called safe in 
LibreOffice. I was wondering if I could make a nice looking extension that does 
something useful and simultaneously sends some user data to a server?
[2] Euh, this: https://nextcloud.documentfoundation.org/s/E5RX5xK6jxQPLdK





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Re: [libreoffice-design] Topic for design team to investigate: Content hosting consolidation on ask.libreoffice.org

[Maarten Brouwers (murb)]

Forgot that Bjoern actually mentioned some of the somehows

Technical infrastructure was lacking for contributors:
> [1] Seen e.g. by:
>a/ repeated cries for help on twitter, some examples: (both technical 
> issues)
>   https://twitter.com/nimbleslides/status/1020899933161848832 
>  
>   https://twitter.com/FloraCanou/status/1020517686453735424 
> 
and lack of categorisation-ability which makes it useless for sharing certain 
templates:
>b/ currently no presentation templates being offered there, despite this
>   being the most common use case:
>   
> https://extensions.libreoffice.org/templates?getCategories=Presentation=any
>  
> 
>   and massive template collections actually being hosted elsewhere e.g.:
>   https://github.com/dohliam/libreoffice-impress-templates 
> 

Those look mainly like technical problems to me. I’m not sure Plone is the 
right basis (don't know it), but maybe helping the current maintainer out and 
addressing the right issues may be a more fruitful attempt to keep a good 
extension site running than starting from scratch and rediscovering the same 
old problems. As said, I’m happy to assist him/her, but just redrafting 
requirements without any observation-based ideas about what makes a great 
template site (and I just don’t buy the idea that is mainly about the 
user-accounts) doesn’t end really well anywhere in my book. Maintaining 
software doesn’t become easier when you build a complex tool (an extensions 
website) on something that isn’t meant for it (a Q/A site).

Yours,


Maarten



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Re: [libreoffice-design] Topic for design team to investigate: Content hosting consolidation on ask.libreoffice.org

[Maarten Brouwers (murb)]

Hi Bjoern,

> Stating that a classic CMS is by definition better suited for the task at hand
> than something more interactive like discourse is a foregone conclusion. Given
> that the lack of community involvement is the core reason for many limitations
> of the current setup, its not a valid one.

I think the quickest route to success is adopting a proven framework for 
hosting extensions. If you want to build something unique start from scratch, 
I’d use a generic framework (again, not sure about Plone, I couldn’t find the 
repo for the current site), but really never a framework made for a very 
specific function. I’ve been there (helping others professionaly) and pulling 
my hair out as a developer when I was asked to add some new functionality that 
didn’t align with the core functionality that that specific framework offered. 

> 
>> - Lack of integration with LibreOffice? -> Create an API on top of the
>> current database and integrate it with LibreOffice (another thing that I
>> guess would be hard to realize with a foundation based on Askbot)
>> [...]
>> - Lack of moderators? -> All of the above?
> 
> Please dont guess or speculate on this, you will likely get it wrong. This is
> something that needs to be evaluated by trying.

Sure, these are questions. But I’d always want to try the simplest route that 
also is promising for future development and do basic experiments in the 
current situation when possible that will learn us something more about the 
requirements. You’ve been suggesting starting with a MVP on ask.libreoffice.org 
. Sure, try the templates function, you always 
learn, but I can assure you it will be a deadlock when you want to grow it into 
a full fledged extensions site. Look at the growing list of ideas. One day you 
want features comparable to other platforms and I can’t see how a Q/A platform 
will get us there.

>> I really doubt that OAuth or not has anything to do with it. Localisation, 
>> probably yes.
> 
> Well, where do the 45.000 accounts on askbot come from? The site is far from
> being perfect, but still doing better that all other forums we have. OAuth 
> etc.
> certainly has a role in that, as does gamification, badges and social media
> integration.

Sure, but again, I doubt it matters to an extensions website. Mozilla has no 
OAuth, and still has imho a great extensions website. In an ideal world 
everyone contributes and consumes, but in reality it is just a small 
percentage. Especially when it comes to more complicated stuff like building 
extensions and quality themes.

> For the community the decision should go with the team that gets the most
> content, interaction and users on their platform. 

Interaction & users should imho not be the primary goal for an extensions 
website, great extensions should be. If clearly communicated, I strongly 
believe the 1% of users that is willing to volunteer will step up, but until 
the moment you opened the thread there wasn’t really a way I could see this was 
something I could help out, and I’m subscribed to a list oriented toward 
LibreOffice’s end-user experience (this list). 

g.,


Maarten


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Re: [libreoffice-design] Topic for design team to investigate: Content hosting consolidation on ask.libreoffice.org

[Maarten Brouwers (murb)]

Hi Bjoern,

> So tl;dr: This is the design list, we do 1/ "Identify core needs and usecases"
> here. No tools/platform discussion[1]. Next up would be finding enthusiastic
> people willing to work on this. 

Ok, so one of the core needs you actually emphasise is actual support by 
*multiple* volunteers, not relying on a single person to do moderation and/or 
maintenance, which is currently a problem with extensions.libreoffice.org 
<http://extensions.libreoffice.org/>. Very valid point indeed.

A Q/A site by definition gets a lot of users, and satisfied users turn into 
actual contributors on such sites. Good to learn that it is also maintained 
properly. But from that it doesn’t follow that it is the right tool for the job 
of serving extensions & templates. As the earlier mentioned GDoc pointed out, 
there are other requirements than having moderators and maintainers, even 
though no UGC-site can really exist without them. Having said that, I agree 
with the critiques that the old ‘requirements’-document has way too many 
requirements.

Let’s start with some stake holders (not extensive):

The users
- Want to find extensions that solve their needs (and that are trustworthy / 
reliable / of quality)
Moderators
- Want to help users find the best extensions as simply as possible
The extension creators
- Want to make their extension findable
LibreOffice.org <http://libreoffice.org/>
- Wants the site to be maintained well

I believe you came to the design list mainly reasoning problems that 
LibreOffice.org <http://libreoffice.org/> is having with the current 
extensions-site as an organisation. I guess most on this list think primarily 
from a users’ perspective, secondary extension creators perspective. A design 
list-member cannot guarantee any long term support from maintainers (requires 
technical skills) and moderators (requires experimentation), although they may 
be able to point out why a current solution is not working well for any of the 
people involved (although again, maintenance is quite a different skill). I’d 
like to assume that a popular site should be able to get the (possibly paid) 
maintenance it requires.

A pragmatic approach to this problem, which I believe you’re after, requires 
not only design list involvement, but also people who want to maintain (and or 
build) it, otherwise we’re after a waterfall style approach where the design 
team is thinking of great features which are too hard to implement and will 
never turn into something that is properly realised.

From what I can see now: adapting ask.libreoffice.org 
<http://ask.libreoffice.org/> requires way more effort to turn it into a proper 
extension-site than either adapting the current extensions-site or adopting an 
existing solution of another project, because I believe ask.libreoffice.org 
<http://ask.libreoffice.org/> currently lacks:

* Structured storing of metadata, most importantly: versions that it works 
with, screenshot(s), authorship, license, links to further documentation / 
source (automatically extracted or not)
* Listing should feature part of this metadata directly (title and votes is not 
enough)
* Should communicate ‘Extensions-site’ (it should at least quack like a duck if 
it wants to be a duck), not Q/A
* Clear separation of certain categories (most importantly Extensions & 
Templates, but I could imagine Language support as another main category, not 
just a random collection of ’tags’)

I was unaware of the extensions’ site problem with lack of volunteers actually. 
Some call for volunteers in that respect there would help :) To be honest, I 
don’t even have extensions installed. I think it is partly caused by the lack 
of end-user centric design; as extensions weren’t really well promoted in the 
first place it looked a bit amateurish. I’m actually able to help there (as a 
front-end developer) and think a few things would help a lot already:

* First and mostly: Remove the focus from ‘most recent’ and focus on most 
popular; currently some 
* Allow for more (high resolution) screenshots that can better communicate what 
the extensions are doing
* Promote the download link
* Downplay ‘requirements’ if those requirements are being fulfilled by the 
default installations of 5.x and greater release already (isn’t Python UNO part 
of the default installation?)
* Ask for moderators on the site if there aren’t really any :)

I’d hope that more volunteers would follow from a more used & usable 
extensions-site.

Maybe we should move the discussion to a spot where all stakeholders and 
potential volunteers are involved. I’m happy to subscribe to that spot :)

g.,


Maarten






> Op 12 okt. 2018, om 16:02 heeft Bjoern Michaelsen 
>  het volgende geschreven:
> 
> Hi Maarten,
> 
> On Fri, Oct 12, 2018 at 02:06:54PM +0200, Maarten Brouwers (murb) wrote:
>> What about adapting Mozilla’s extension-site? 
> 
> So l

Re: [libreoffice-design] Topic for design team to investigate: Content hosting consolidation on ask.libreoffice.org

[Maarten Brouwers (murb)]

What about adapting Mozilla’s extension-site? From an and-user’s perspective I 
think they’ve well figured out how such site should work, at least from a 
consumer’s perspective. Adopting a Q/A site for something that allows for a 
structured presentation of an extension looks like turning a bus into a car. 
Sure it will function, but I wouldn’t expect the UX to gain anything from it. 

Live site: https://addons.mozilla.org 

Source:
https://github.com/mozilla/addons-server 
 (Python / Django based)
https://github.com/mozilla/addons-frontend 
 (JavaScript / React based)


g.,


Maarten Brouwers

> Op 11 okt. 2018, om 22:56 heeft Miguel Ángel Ríos Vázquez 
>  het volgende geschreven:
> 
> Can we really think about using Ask for that?
> 
> My impression is that it is not even very well accepted as a forum. Not an 
> example of success.
> 
> For me the current web of extensions looks and works well enough.
> 
> And on the other hand we could be more thankful with the volunteer work of 
> the people in the project, whether we like it or not.
> 
> Miguel Ángel.
> 
> El 11/10/18 a las 14:58, Bjoern Michaelsen escribió:
>> Hello Design Team,
>> as you might be aware, the user experience of our extension and template
>> website causes users a lot of concern[1]. This is despite volunteer efforts
>> trying to move this forward, but stalling due to limited resources, which led
>> to TDF even attempting to get commercial support for Plone[2] to augment the
>> the limited volunteer ressources available. The latter did not help to
>> meaningfully improve the situation either.
>> So as all current efforts there are stalled, I looked around for alternative
>> solutions to our usecase -- which is hosting auxiliary content for 
>> LibreOffice
>> consumers. We already have a platform that does that, which is 
>> ask.libreoffice.org.
>> ask.libreoffice.org already allows uploading of templates as attachments to
>> questions, so it can already be used for templates. Doing so (e.g. by 
>> posting a
>> self-answered question) is possible, but not exactly intuitive. However, 
>> askbot
>> also provides:
>> - various logins including OAuth etc. (which currently is a hassle on Plone)
>> - distributed moderation and gamification (which currently is a bottleneck 
>> on Plone)
>> - better discoveribility, tagging and social media integration
>> - markdown, mini-wiki and discussion of content
>> - multi-language support
>> That is, the experience for template creators and consumers is already much 
>> better
>> on askbot than it is on the current extension and templates website, which is
>> stalled and currently has no clear path to even get to a experience 
>> comparable
>> with askbot -- let alone beyond.
>> As such, I would like to suggest the design team to investigate, if it is 
>> feasable:
>> - to extend askbots existing UI to offer uploading of templates
>>   (well, technically that is already possible: This is just about making the
>>   usecase more obvious to users, e.g. with a guided "templates upload 
>> wizard")
>> - to extend askbots configuration to also allow .oxt files as uploads and 
>> offer
>>   the same for extensions
>> - finally, use e.g. tags to provide a "template" or "extension" view of
>>   ask.libreoffice.org
>> Unlike the rather limited successes we had with Plone, TDF sucessfully 
>> triggered
>> improvements of askbot in the past[3], so given some well-scoped choices and
>> selections made by the design team wrt askbot could help guide the same in 
>> the
>> future.
>> Best,
>> Bjoern
>> [1] Seen e.g. by:
>> a/ repeated cries for help on twitter, some examples:
>>https://twitter.com/nimbleslides/status/1020899933161848832
>>https://twitter.com/FloraCanou/status/1020517686453735424
>> b/ currently no presentation templates being offered there, despite this
>>being the most common use case:
>>
>> https://extensions.libreoffice.org/templates?getCategories=Presentation=any
>>and massive template collections actually being hosted elsewhere e.g.:
>>https://github.com/dohliam/libreoffice-impress-templates
>> [2] see entry for 2016-02-18 on 
>> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/TDF/BoD_Decisions
>> [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Askbot
> 
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