I think I went too far with my comments and I really sorry, Mr. Visser,
specifically apologize to you because I think you're older than me, so
respect to you is even greater. At the end I think we got great respect
by Ubuntu as always and I think that finally the passions around this
bug is calmed
** Description changed:
- *** As per the design team's request***
+ === Master Bug ===
+ (As per the design team's request)
All bugs concerning the window controls are being duped to this master bug.
All the decisions regarding the position/order/alignment will be dealt as a
one.
- -
Unless i can get a distro with the buttons in the correct position i
will move to Fedora. I know i have no say in this decision but I'm not
going to make this change on every PC I install this on.
--
[Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
@Bob, fyi, and not to derail this bug, but you'll find that Fedora is a
lot more bleeding edge than say Ubuntu or one of its' derivatives (like
Linux Mint) are.
--
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https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633
You received this bug notification
thanks, yeah i think i might just skip this release and wait for
Fedora's next release and go with that.
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You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu
Desktop Bugs, which
I just downloaded and tried the latest Lucid:
1) I don't like the menu button order. Too confusing.
2) I don't like the button location on the left. Too confusing.
In both cases, my mouse hangs to the right by default.
3) I like how clear the default theme is, but the purple background,
button
I have the good impression that Lucid will be a big success. It's the
beautifulest and full with great features (Ubuntu's Indicator-Applets,
Music-Store, Software-Center, ...) Distro far and wide in the Linux-
World. Since Karmic I love the good progress Ubuntu is going. Even
Windows 7 looks now
After Mark S. clear statement we got here only comments of peoples they
can't stop crying. It's so, because they know that Mark S. is here and
is reading the comments. I hope that this exploitation will stop now and
we will get here ***only*** clear datas from the key-peoples. Thanks.
--
Pyramid Technologies 508:
Have you been running Karmic? My understanding that the GDM customization
issue you refer to was introduced when moving to GDM 2.26 from 2.20 because of
the refactoring of upstream GDM the original gdmconfig no longer works. Ubuntu
skipped several upstream releases of
My apologies if this is redundant data.
Most certainly due to the popularity of this bug, the buttons are nearly
completely configurable in either left or right side situations.
However, if additional .png associations could be made for the close
and menu buttons, specifically when they are
I generally don't keep up with all the new releases, and when I upgraded
from 8.04 I was generally very impressed by all the improvements that
have happened over the past 2 years. And then I noticed that the buttons
were on the wrong side. For me on my own personal computer it isn't a
big deal
Yann, I'm also think that this is an excellent compromise. I think that
other people in this channel will like it too, if not, we gonna reach
the comment #1000 soon :)
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https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633
You received this bug
@Devin Walters Yes, and I fundamentally disagree with pretty much every
single one of Mark's responses to the criticism. etc etc.
So what? He's response to all users is his billions of dollars invest in
something that is given to you for prize ZERO!
You know what a real democracy is? When
I think the compromise is a good one - I have just updated to the newest
packages in 10.04 and changed between the two themes: Human and
Radiance. Human had buttons on the right and Radiance had buttons on the
left. In the end I will stay with Human theme for the button layout, but
change all its
@Yann
The application icon for the window menu button was removed following
this bug report -
https://bugs.launchpad.net/human-gtk-theme/+bug/405426
It only affects the human gtk themes (Human and Human-Clearlooks), other
gtk themes besides high-contrast still has application icons in their
-- Forwarded message --
From: J.G. Visser
Date: Sat, Mar 27, 2010 at 3:44 PM
Subject: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons:
position/order/alignment
To: Pako
Pako,
I suppose you want a place in history as the top contributor of this bug
report. You have reached
Folks, this bug is looking more like a mailing list every day. Can I
suggest that we stop just poking at one another here. There are
differing points of view, and insulting one another doesn't add to our
ability to settle this matter. So, I'd suggest that we only add comments
to this bug if they
So you said that you are not prepared for small changes, well what about the
huge change in (GNOME aka 3.0) It's a desktop design that is 360 degrease
different from all desktops today.
What would be your complain about? Revert my GNOME 2.0 back because I'm used to
work in such a environment
I agree with the comments Jeff Burns makes. For me personally the
position of the buttons is not a massive issue, but I am probably not
anything like the average user - I'm more in the power user bracket.
The main issues with having the buttons on the left are:
i) It may pose issues for some
@Pako
Watched the screencasts so I could make somewhat of fair judgment. As
far as I can tell window management buttons are still on the right :P.
I'm kidding, though again I think even here I can generalize. I'd say
Gnome 3.0 shell allows you to keep your old basic habbits, window
management on
Btw,I should clarify. I don't think it's an outrage that Canonical threw
the buttons over to the left in this beta. On the contrary, I think it
was a great experiment. So an alpha/beta is the place to do it.
It has spawned a lively debate and in this debate I'm simply expressing
my opinion. I
When support for LTS will expire in 2015, I assume there will be GNOME
5.0 which might be shipped without buttons at all, that's why it is
better for you to start (sooner the better) to learn things used to do
step by step.
--
[Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
@Mark Shuttleworth
Would data collected in Windows be considered useful? Since we're using
this to make a UI design change the current UI shouldn't affect it
right? What matters, presumably is how we interact with documents that
will look mostly the same on any operating system. I will try to
Don't change things for the sake of change, or to differentiate. Make changes
because they make improvements.
(as I said before, no one would just changes the order of throttle and brake in
a car, without a very good reason)
I think differentiate is important. Every OS should have his own
Hey guys, stop bitching and download today's metacity update in lucid.
It lets you switch the button position through the theme, so human
buttons are back on the right, ambiance on the left.
--
[Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633
You
fair enough
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On 27/03/10 13:19, Tom Harris wrote:
Would data collected in Windows be considered useful?
Yes, certainly. There'd be arguments about interpretations, but a good
data gathering exercise would identify that.
Mark
--
[Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
Besides... I saw in the Ubuntu-Forum in Germany that the Threat about
the new button-placing is poor in visits and comments. The Offtopic-
Lucid-Threat are many voices that peoples loves the new look and way. I
don't thing that the whole world is against that. And who's against, can
change the
Let me mark the marketing in that statement:
-differentiate is important
-Better cars (Sprot-Cars, expensive Cars) moved the gearshifts to the steering
wheel
-Apple slogan is: Think different ... and
First and last are pretty much the same. A comment on that better cars
though. Euhm, a lot of
@ Bernhard:
Wow, true. This was a really good idea what they did with the Metacity-
update. If Grandma likes it on the right, so she can switching in a
simple the theme... Dust for example. ;) I thing it's a good
compromise - like it. This could calm the most of the present inscribers
here in
Bernhard wrote
-Hey guys, stop bitching and download today's metacity update in lucid.
It lets you switch the button position through the theme, so human
buttons are back on the right, ambiance on the left.
Pako wrote
fair enough
--
[Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
here in this list, no? Maybe a Ambiance-left (default) and a Ambiance-
right is a idea from me. What about that?
I'm sure those will be downloadable from gnome-look.org pretty soon!
--
[Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633
You
@ Spang (that would include 62 year olds)
If we ask our grandmas what we should do with future technology, will
not get far.
--
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https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633
You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu
* We will not get far
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Pako, Pako, Pako...
My friend, you misinterpret me. But trust me, I understand what you are
saying. 10 years ago I'd be with you on this debate/argument because I
didn't have experiences that I do now supporting UI related stuff.
Change is good right? Well maybe not sometimes... So when I say
@Jeff Burns, Please write shorter posts because English is not my native
language, so is very difficult for me to understand you.
I have to compile my sentence before posting here and that's a time waste. ;)
--
[Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
Jeff makes a good point about his wife exclaiming Can't they leave
anything alone??. We had similar immense pain when we upgraded to
Office 2007 at my work. The office ribbon wasn't just viewed as a
waste of developer time by our staff, but also caused actual affront.
As if Microsoft had
@Pako
If what I said leads you to that conclusion, you're cutting a bit to
much corners...
@Bernhard scholli
The theme dependent position is indeed somewhat of a compromise. I don't
think it changes anything at the core of the debate though.
Anyhow, I think I've done enough community
@ Scaine
What you think it's spam from me are only my intents for opening the
mind, see the stuff from another angle (point) and show that most of
the arguments don't haves the gravity they looks like at first moment.
This threat is a meeting form I am against it-folk and I am in mission
to give
The theme-dependent buttons are _bad news_, for two reasons:
1) they make clear that the experiment is much more than an experiment
2) the reason for the switch was to put something new (and certainly
great - though unfortunately secret, at the moment) on the right side:
it means that whatever
No Pietro. The custom-themes haves now the possibility to do their
themes with the control-buttons on the left or the right (look down).
The rest of the themes have it on the right, because they was made for
it and they looks better this way.
---
index.theme
[Desktop Entry]
@Bernhard
First off, please read the Code of Conduct you signed. No need for the
offensive language.
Second, the updates thus far do not allow one to switch from the icons
being on the left back to the right. The only thing I have noticed is
the theme manager telling you that if you've got the
I'm surprised no one has used this fun little tool:
http://iographica.com/
Download it, and in a terminal run this:
cd FOLDER (depends on where you saved it)
java -jar IOGraph.jar
If you wish, you can add a screenshot of your desktop for reference.
Just click the options button (tiny little tool
More or less roughly scanning through this whole debate, one can observe
a vast majority of contributors against this change of the UI with at
least plausible arguments and illustrations. They frequently state to
represent other (less experienced) users. On the other side are a few
very explicit
Switching themes enables me to move the buttons to the right, e.g.
switch to human theme or dust. If you still think it's not working as
intended, please file a bug against metacity or comment here: bug
533758.
If you want to comment, please describe exactly what you did, by switch
icons do you
28 minutes of shorter mouseways with the control-buttons left. I do my
usual work with the new adopt habits.?field.comment=28 minutes of
shorter mouseways with the control-buttons left. I do my usual work with
the new adopt habits.
** Attachment added: IOGraphica (Scholli) - 28 minutes (from
@Albert H
Take Office 2007. People HATE it. Even after all that learning, they still
want 2003 (and a menu for 2010 and higher). Some people don't even
bother upgrading.
So why upgrading to GNOME 3.0 anyway? Let's stick with GNOME 1.0
--
[Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
@Mark Shuttleworth
As promised, here's an 1.5 hour mousetrack from earlier today. I figure
any longer amount of time and the data is pointless because of the sheer
number of different styles of task being performed. The lines obviously
show mouse movement, the circles are the mouse not moving,
Mark Said:
Collect data on what's interesting to you. Most of us do this because
it's interesting, and we like both the company (that's you ;-)) and the
domain. I can't guarantee that any contribution will make it into
Ubuntu, whether it be a patch or a translation or a package or an idea.
@ Davin Walters:
Mark said that the design decision in not under voting, but good thata
(against or not left position) is welcome for the final decision...
That's what he said... And I don't see any problem with that, it's
something logical
(Read post comment #110 and #167 for more info)
martincasc: I've re-read both posts carefully; It does not change my
response. I don't feel like he ever really said anything in any of his
posts. He would give an inch, take an inch. We haven't moved in 300
threads. Is this not obvious to anyone else?
--
[Master] Window Control buttons:
@David Walters:
Comment #110 (...) The default position of the window controls will remain the
left,
throughout beta1. We're interested in data which could influence the
ultimate decision.(...)
comment #167 ·(...) If you want to tell us
that we are all part of it, we want information, and we
@MartinCasc
Yes, and I fundamentally disagree with pretty much every single one of
Mark's responses to the criticism that follows in the previous *300*
posts. There are so many instances in this thread where, as I just
said, Mark writes two paragraphs which consist of absolutely *nothing*.
For me, the issue is almost solved: Theme now update buttons position,
so one's can choose Dust for instance... I currently give it a try in
a VM (I don't like Ambiance background color that remain in terminal
windows even if background image is changed).
Button layout reversal for new themes is
On 25/03/10 22:18, gabriel_samfira wrote:
1. I prefer to have Select windows when the mouse moves over them (or
focus-on-hover), so my mouse is all over the place. I rarely close a
window, but i do maximize and minimize allot.
I understand that this is a relatively common preference, but
On 25/03/10 22:25, Atel Apsfej wrote:
Good, finally some guidance. You shouldn't wait for people to think up
data products on their own, that risks people spinning their wheels
creating data that gets discarded because it doesn't meet your
definition and leads to people feeling they are being
Here's my little grain of data:
My mouse pointer usually hovers above the right part of the screen
simply because text on the screen is aligned left and on the right side
it's out of the way.
--
[Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633
You
Many right things have been said (and scarcely considerated, but that's
another story), just one added observation: all comments of the form
they're just buttons, you can change it, and partially also you can
change distribution are simply irresponsible.
_I_ can change it, and probably will. But
Colin D Bennett wrote
If the window buttons are moved to the left, the scroll bar must also be moved
to the left hand side.
In my case and I hope in many of yours, I never use the right scrollbar
since I'm able to use my touchpad scrollbar on my laptop, it is much
faster and more efficient and
@Pietro Battiston: I don't think you can be 100% sure that Debian (or
any other distro) won't do something in the future you will dislike...
Tech people think that non-techies (your grandmother) will ZOMG what
happened to the buttons. Just try to explain that she has to click on
the left now to
Imre Gergely You are absolutely right! The example of a normal, average,
everyday user is my sister. She has a Macbook, not because she knows
something about computers or OSes, but she is an trend setter, she
doesn't even know where the shutdown button is! So what really is
important to her is
Il giorno ven, 26/03/2010 alle 10.41 +, Imre Gergely ha scritto:
@Pietro Battiston: I don't think you can be 100% sure that Debian (or
any other distro) won't do something in the future you will dislike...
I'm 100% sure it won't do something that the majority dislikes,
justifying it with
I agree, but my grandmother would not know how to change the layouts and
not even she bother, I think you're making things confusing even though
I am 100% sure you already know how to adjust your desktop by you
measure.
--
[Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
I just ended my call with my grandma on Skype. Asking her what side of
buttons she prefer, she said Left, because she is a Karmic user, please
point me how to explain her to change the layout (She wants to be an
modern grandma). She desperately trying to do that and I can't help her.
--
[Master]
So maybe the first category of data should be: what percentage of the
Ubuntu user base cares/notices/is pissed about this change. From ALL the
users who use Ubuntu desktop. Because it aims to be for everyone not
just for tech-savvy people, right?
Go upgrade to beta at your
Imre, why there's 500-600MB of RAM used up after booting in Gnome?
Because there are more wishes than bug reports in launchpad, those
wishes require а lot of RAM and processor power.
--
[Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633
You received
On Fri, 26 Mar 2010 08:18:42 -
Warlon samps...@hotmail.com wrote:
Here's my little grain of data:
My mouse pointer usually hovers above the right part of the screen
simply because text on the screen is aligned left and on the right
side it's out of the way.
I had this same thought.
On Fri, 26 Mar 2010 10:08:40 -
Pako elektroban...@gmail.com wrote:
Colin D Bennett wrote
If the window buttons are moved to the left, the scroll bar must
also be moved to the left hand side.
In my case and I hope in many of yours, I never use the right
scrollbar since I'm able to use
@pako #438
So then run Enlightenment or XFCE.
Ideally, everything (*nix, Gnome, KDE, XFCE, Konversation, etc) should
have a developmental branch and a production branch; with nothing in the
Dev version being put into the Prod version until fully tested.
--
[Master] Window Control buttons:
By some reason Debian GNOME works with only 90 MB. of RAM
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Yeah, Gnome uses a lot less than KDE, but XFCE uses even less than
GNome, but of course true geeks ask GUI? What's that? We're in CLUI
since the 70's man. No mouse needed. What's the fuss?
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[Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633
You
Mark:
Even when you crowdsource information you still need a framework.
Frameworks like Ideastorm or Brainstorm are crowdsourcing
frameworks...frameworks you aren't using for your design decisions. It's
just a weebit inconsistent to come back after-the-fact and claim you
were diligently waiting
@Jefspa Leta: AMEN!!!
Not defining what you want will not get you what you want; and that is
what Mar kis doing. It's like going to a party and asking people Hey...
you remember that one time that one guy did that one thing you know
where with you know who?
u yeah..suuure.
--
[Master]
just to correct my typo error in previous comment. works with only 90MB
of RAM uses only 90MB of RAM.
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You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu
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While Jefspa Leta brings up all good points, I don't see a need to keep
saying could'a would'a should'a or I told you so to Mark at this
point.
I do hope Mark takes this to heart for future design changes. Most
critics of the change fully understand that Mark is in charge and that
this isn't a
To gain more data I posted a poll on the Ubuntuforums Community Cafe board.
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=9031462
The reason for posting it there and not on the Lucid Lynx Testing board
is to better to get a broader user base to answer (not only the beta
testers).
The poll seeks two
aysui:
Would you like to suggest a better engagement strategy to get Mark
talking? He's been pretty reluctant to communicate about specifics in
the role he sees externals playing in design decisions until I started
poking him in the eye..over and over and over again. I'd like nothing
better than
@Everyone.
April 29th, the release date is the scheduled release date of the 3rd
LTS release...at this point, rather than copy Microsoft and release
Canonical's version of Vista because of this Button-Gate; maybe it's
also time to:
1) Resolve it the way the majority of people want it or...
** Branch unlinked: lp:~alexeftimie/+junk/gcc
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@ Pyramid Technologies
What a nonsense. In what relations you can put together the Vista-fail
with the buttons?
1. you are sure the majority want it? You want it. Peoples who didn't tried it
for a long period will say firstly no. But this statement is generally not
fair.
2. this is a fair
@Pako
Until 2005, I ran Debian GNOME or jhbuild GNOME (on Debian) with only 96MB RAM.
That was a Toshiba Portege 3010, you can look up the rest of the specs.
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Maybe we could ask Steve Jobs and Bill Gates what they think and why
they have chosen left and right layouts? Why not ;)
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@scholli
What a nonsense
Such is your opinion. I have stated mine and you disagree. cool. So be
it.
In what relations you can put together the Vista-fail with the
buttons?
Vista was going to be this be-all-end-all-wonderful thing with the GREAT
idea of the UAC.. just like how there is a GREAT
450+ are not majority, 30.00+ are.
How about that explanation about the reasons for the button order change
Well, the time is running and there is still no particular reason and argument,
why should be the right buttons retained.
--
[Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
Il giorno ven, 26/03/2010 alle 20.41 +, Pako ha scritto:
Well, the time is running and there is still no particular reason and
argument, why should be the right buttons retained.
Please, at this point we are all taking as _obvious_ that right buttons
are to be retained _in absence_ of a
As the debate is still alive and kicking, let met drop in example of an
argument that has surely passed the board. (What about novice users, and
their willingness to migrate)
About a month ago I migrated my 62 year old mothers PC (pretty much used
for PC-banking only), from XP tot Karmic.
Sprang, I agree.
Every year there is a list that comes out of the most popular distros,
and for quite a few, Ubuntu held that, but I really do believe that if
this move goes through, Ubuntu will become as current and relevant in
today's world as NeXtstep, BeOS, Amiga and OS/2 are.
It's bad
Pako wrote:
450+ are not majority, 30.00+ are.
How about that explanation about the reasons for the button order change
Well, the time is running and there is still no particular reason and
argument, why should be the right buttons retained.
I have yet to hear a compelling reason why to move
Thank you Jeff. You've said a lot of what is on my mind, as well as the
mind of others, and you also included the issues that IT/Support people
are going to face with this button order/move issue.
I think at this point, I could list many things, but so many people have
listed them so many times,
** Description changed:
*** As per the design team's request***
All bugs concerning the window controls are being duped to this master bug.
All the decisions regarding the position/order/alignment will be dealt as a
one.
-
Please centre the window title like in previous Human
Now the sheer irony... post #404 and talking about spy software not
found in Ubuntu.
404indeed.
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Yes, Mark, if you can clarify a bit about what kind of data you will
actually consider as a factor in your decision, perhaps people here can
actually help you by providing that data so we can avoid arguments that
just go around in circles.
What are you looking for? Polls? Anecdotes?
If polls,
That should say currently collecting
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aysiu:
Yes this is one of the fundamental communication breakdowns between the
closed door design team and the external community. Shuttleworth and
the design team want data.. but they haven't communicated what that
means. Why hasn't that happened? Is the team concerned that the
passionate
passionate contributing with 0.001%?? with such a poor percentage most of
people in this list doesn't even deserve a launchpad account, nor to make
decisions in the name of approximately 30.00 Ubuntu users, especially
because they get the OS for FREE.
Whether the new users will like the
In terms of mouse heat map maybe we could get people to use the rather
funky java based app IOGraph which tracks mouse movement and depicts
it graphically.
http://iographica.com/
I just downloaded it and ran it from the command line:-
a...@wopr:~/Desktop$ java -version
java version 1.6.0_18
This is the image without my desktop behind it.
** Attachment added: IOGraphica - 8.1 minutes (from 22-04 to 22-12)n.png
http://launchpadlibrarian.net/4167/IOGraphica%20-%208.1%20minutes%20%28from%2022-04%20to%2022-12%29n.png
--
[Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
@Mark
I don't know if this is the right place to give you data on those 3
items, but at the moment there doesn't seem to be a more suitable
medium, so here we go:
1. I prefer to have Select windows when the mouse moves over them (or
focus-on-hover), so my mouse is all over the place. I rarely
Hi Mark
Maybe it would be an idea to setup something like:
https://testpilot.mozillalabs.com/
Alpha/Beta/ Lon-term loyal users could then install a test-pilot package
and opt-in to certain test that Canonical need done for feedback.
You could then run say the heat map test for 5 days with
Mark:
Good, finally some guidance. You shouldn't wait for people to think up
data products on their own, that risks people spinning their wheels
creating data that gets discarded because it doesn't meet your
definition and leads to people feeling they are being ignored.
You and the design team
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