I would like to point out some things for those who are willing
to listen:
1) Mark has not stated that the window controls decision has been
finalized. He said that he supported the interface team's decision to
do it this way for the beta. I think we do Ubuntu and the Canonical
team great
Does anyone know if this bug might be related to maximus failing to hide
the window decorations? I am currently running ubuntu (not the netbook
remix) with maximus and window-picker to maximize on desktop real
estate.
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[light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to
John Lewis wrote on 2010-03-19:
Basically when everything has to be decided
by committee/consensus view it a) slows the
decision making process down a lot and
b) some pretty silly decisions get made in the
interests of trying to keep everyone happy.
Rafael Gattringer wrote on 2010-03-20:
Honestly people. Really? This whole thread has devolved into watching a
flock of birds peck at one another. Trying to belabor this process to
death by having a running popularity contest of who likes what where
won't convince anybody of anything. I would be willing to go out on a
limb and
To whom it might concern:
- The proposed changes should not happen suddenly on a LTS.
- Things should happen for a reason: Do you have a way to show us where this is
leading to? Do you have factual data that supports that this is the best
solution?.
- Our changes and customization should not be
I honestly can't believe what I read here.
Mark's response to fewt were clear and very truthful. If everyone out
there got to make design decisions for ubuntu, it would ship by default
with hundreds of xp, vista + osx clone themes and thousands of tasteless
bikini wallpapers with ubuntu tagged
Optimus 55, if you don't like the ability to customize your desktop or
implement alternative themes, there are a number of proprietary
operating systems that already accommodate you. As for Ubuntu, one of
the really neat things is that it does have a number of themes that ship
with it as well as
Personally, at the time of writing this, I do not like this change as it
seems to be more a change for changes sake in an effort to simply be
different. There seems to have been an element of groupthink in the
design and decision process. This is a pity because for the most part,
despite a few
I'm against making that change, at least now, without having them a few
months in beta testing for find out all the regression bugs that it
generates and how the people feel about it.
Maybe since the first 10.10 alpha?
The fact that this is an LTS cuts both ways. If I'm confident that
10.10,
Moved them back to the right side from the left (wrong side for me)
by doing this thanks to iRock:
gconftool-2 --set /apps/metacity/general/button_layout --type string
menu:minimize,maximize,close
Among other things, with them on the Beta default left, I frequently
lose a line on the 1024x768
@Mark Appier,
I couldn't agree with you more. The reason there are so many comments is
because people do feel passionate about Ubuntu, which implies they are doing
something very right. I love customizing my desktop and understand that if i
want to change something, I can.
It doesn't matter if
Putting the buttons on the left side is very functional. Make a test and
you'll notice that whenever you open the window, the pointer is always
closer to the left than the right side of the window, meaning less
pointer movements over the desktop.
--
[light-theme] please revert the order of the
Fine add it as an option to put it on the left, but leave it on the
right for default as the little gain (which is very debatable) does not
to weigh the outrage from users. Look at what yo have from alpha testers
which are people who expect change and want to try something different.
Imagine what
@Mark Shuttleworth (if you still check this)
Given the amount of disappointment, I (as well as the design team) would listen
to what people are saying, but of course, you said it wasn't reasonable to do
so for the future (for new features). Then at least give our thoughts *some*
consideration.
On Sat, 20 Mar 2010 00:55 +, j_baer bae...@gmail.com wrote:
My belief is this decision was not made by the flip of a coin, the toss
of a dart, or the personal preference of any single individual. I
believe the concept was discussed, debated, and evaluated as to adding
value to Ubuntu as
I would of expected a user survey to go out, or something along those
lines to get an accurate, and full understanding of what USERS would
feel best with. After all, ubuntu is an OS that is built around open and
free ideals. Not letting everyone, or at least OPENLY DISCUSS CHANGE, is
a breach of
This has probably been mentioned many times before, however. The way I
look at it, I don't mind them on the left side. What I have a problem
with, is that they just threw the buttons on the left side, and left it
in the same order as they were on the right, meaning the close button is
on the
Moving the buttons left is a *big* step ahead. User look from the top-left to
bottom-right. Currently I am a KDE-user (Kubuntu) but will switch to GNOME
with lucid. Aligning the title left is also a very good idea. I never liked
centered titles.
--
[light-theme] please revert the order of the
very bad decision
like to have the window controls on the right
--
[light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to
menu:minimize,maximize,close
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633
You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu
Desktop Bugs, which
For me it makes no big difference, left or right, if the developers want
it this way, let it be. I left Windows almost 10 years ago, and I've
changed my habits several times, this is certainly not going to be the
last or the biggest.
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[light-theme] please revert the order of the window
I would have a more constructive idea that respects the ideas of
canonical and the ideas of some users of the community.
should also be easy to implement.
Bug #542772
2 click and we are all happy.
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[light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to
I too am strongly opposed to this change. I just hope it does not catch
on in Kubuntu, or Linux Mint.
--
[light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to
menu:minimize,maximize,close
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633
You received this bug notification because you are a
I think it's amazing how Ubuntu manages to screw up every major version
with some serious deal-breaker. 9.10 broke my wireless and graphics
drivers (that worked perfectly in 9.04), and asked me for a password
every minute. I never got to using it. And now 10.04 comes along with
ridiculous purple
Looking back at this thread, the issue seems completely misunderstood by
Ubuntu representatives.
Maybe to understand the debate, it should be made clear that this is the
straw that broke the camel's back!
Someone hereupper complain about regressions every 6 months... the most
annoying and not
OK, just a short comment:
I like change and I think Ubuntu should be able to change things to be better
than their competition.
But I also use Chrome, Kubuntu and Windows and this is really hard to get used
to (I tried for weeks now).
IMO it is better to change these things with upstream in
I am somewhat disappointed that none of the community contributors as so
far is aware of the real intentions of this issue. Moving the buttons to
the left is not a change for the sake of change as someone earlier
supposed.
No, they are keen enough at Canonical's and have weighted this
carefully.
My mouse cursor usually hovers around the right side
of windows because the vertical scroll bars are on the
right. Also, since I read left-to-right, it seems easier to
interact with windows at the right side.
That's a very good point.
There's no sense moving the min/max/close buttons to the
On 19/03/10 10:53, Mr. X wrote:
My mouse cursor usually hovers around the right side
of windows because the vertical scroll bars are on the
right. Also, since I read left-to-right, it seems easier to
interact with windows at the right side.
That's a very good point.
There's no sense
No, notifications were not the primary driver.
Why not simply say that you cannot tell us the reason? :)
--
[light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to
menu:minimize,maximize,close
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633
You received this bug notification because you
** Description changed:
Please centre the window title like in previous Human theme, and also
re-order the window controls in classic order, positioned on the right
side (menu - title - minimize, maximize close).
Workaround
To revert to old layout, enter in terminal:
$
@Mark
Scrollbars are still very useful even with a mousewheel, when navigating
in a large document for example by either scrolling the bar or middle
clicking, please don't kill them at least *before* something as useful
is implemented :)
Furthermore, a lot of users (at least around me) don't
Mark Shuttleworth wrote:
Our design roadmap calls for us to reduce the visibility of
scrollbars, and emphasise:
- touch scrolling
- scrollwheels
If you are actually considering touch scrolling, than you should also
consider that touch screens are much less precise than mouse pointers:
Shouldn't this bug, by now, be assigned to someone on the desktop
experience team? And can anyone confirm when a decision will be made
regarding this?
And still no comments from anyone who was responsible for this? Other,
obviously, Mark himself. Or any rebuttal to comments made in post 71?
Forgive me if I'm confusing this bug with the one about moving buttons
back to the right side of the window, but I actually like this order:
gconftool-2 --set /apps/metacity/general/button_layout --type string
minimize,maximize:close
It seems to me that there is some argument is around having
I totally agree with all the people that don't want such a big change in an LTS.
As Mark said: He wants to free space for something NEW, but people want to
work with an LTS for several years and don't want to be bothered by a design
based on an in between conception.
If you're sure you want to
Our design roadmap calls for us to reduce the visibility of scrollbars,
and emphasise:
- touch scrolling
- scrollwheels
Most people don't scroll with the scrollbar any more. The use the
scrollbar to gauge how much fo the document am I seeing.
Hum... I think the very long list of concerns in
According to comment #208, if we are going to change button position and order,
this is the best:
(left:) maximize, (right:) restore, minimize, close.
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[light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to
menu:minimize,maximize,close
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633
You
I hear alway touchscreens as argument. But it's a funny argument in my
eyes. The pick-up'ed Icons on the panel, switch off - button on the
panel, control-buttons (right or left), hide windows-applet, ... all is
too small for that feature. Honestly it needs a different Desktop-
Interface like the
My opinion...
Love em on the left!!
--
[light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to
menu:minimize,maximize,close
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633
You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu
Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in
My 2 cents worth:-
1. From a purely productive point of view, having the minimize, maximize
and close buttons near the menus saves having to move the mouse pointer
to the opposite side of the screen under certain circumstances.
Personally I would rather waste untold seconds of my life enjoying a
I think most people are right handed and now their way (with the mouse) is
greater than before.
Please let the icons on the right side of the bar. Users who come from another
OS are confused and so they
search for an alternative OS. Stop this wired things.!!
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[light-theme] please revert the
ok. guys.. I didn't read all the posts because the bickering started to
make my head hurt. I am as passionate about Ubuntu as most of the people
that posted here. I'd show you the tattoo but it's in a private place.
:) Seriously, the passion of this argument is good but not directed in
the right
Window-Buttons-Editor or *mwbuttons* (Metacity Window Buttons}, as the
original script
was called, (c) 2010 Pablo Seminario pab...@gmail.com.
Is a simple GUI script to place the buttons on the Titlebar in any order,
and right or left.
Create a link, put it in the menu, desktop, menubar, etc.-
Amazing, what a fuss just because it was decided to move some buttons to
a different side
This is a setting and not a hard coded feature... it can be changed by the user.
Let me guess all here complaining still have the default wallpaper, theme,
login splash, ... you never changed nothing
from
scholli:
I make no claim that this particular issue is as important as the
emotion displayed in the discourse would suggest.
It's like when I have a big argument with my wife over something small.
Once the emotions are spent and we rationally talk through why the out-
of-proportion argument
It is my opinion as well that the button should be in the right edge,
because this is where ALL users are going to look for it.
--
[light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to
menu:minimize,maximize,close
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633
You received this bug
I would just like to add that this is very hard to trackpad users.
Pushing the mouse to the right takes longer and is harder to do. Pulling
your finger is much easier.
If I had to test a location for the buttons I would use the center.
Hopefully you consider laptop users in the decision.
--
Fine, move the button thingies to the left. Whatever. But the least you
could do is give the users the ability to move it back using the gui, by
putting something in the preferences appearance config menu, so they
don't have to mess with gconfig to get the buttons to where they are
consistent. Is
I agree with Luiz Felipe Talvik.
Changing it is not only completely pointless but it is just annoying the
users and it is completely inconsistent with every previous version of
ubuntu and every other distro (for no reason)
--
[light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to
I think the real problem here isn't whether the controls are on the left
or on the right. If users don't like something, they will find a way to
change it, and share those changes with other like minded users. The
real issue seems to be about whether or not the novice user will be able
to make
I did not read all the comments here, but some of them are really
annoying and stupid. i got used to the new position and now i like it.
The only thing which confuses me is the shutdown button still being on
the right.
All these people here complaining about the issue with google chrome
having
It's very disappointing to know that people don't like to try anything
new, they always like to be happy whit whatever going on and usual,
Lucid tried somthing new this time and all of you are disagreeing with
it :(
Very bad! i like th new feature and it's good! I strongly contrary to
this bug!
On 19/03/10 18:52, Atel Apsfej wrote:
Contrast how the Canonical design team works with how the recent Gnome
hackfest participants communicated what was going on at the event.
http://live.gnome.org/UsabilityProject/London2010
Out of all the listed participants on that page with blogs... how
From a support standpoint this is a nightmare.
I can see that if this was a smaller project, it wouldn't create many
waves. But come on, Ubuntu is #1. I'm moving to Lucid from Hardy because
of LTS. I run LTSP servers for thousands of students and teachers. They
are ALL going to complain to me. As
Mark:
I did not make any assumptions about intent or motivations on the behalf
of anyone at Canonical.
What I am saying is that maybe...just maybe the Canonical design team
isn't communicating enough about intent and motivation so that the
external community can see individual changes in context
Already now a large number of people are upset by the changed placement
of the window controls. There's still time to fix it before the release
though. Just admit people don't like the change and revert it! Put up a
poll if you don't believe it. Releasing this change would have a major
negative
@Mark Shuttleworth: You said in #248,
Most people don't scroll with the scrollbar any more. The use the
scrollbar to gauge how much fo the document am I seeing.
Can you site any references to this? Scrolling through this bug report,
for instance, would take a LONG time with a mouse wheel.
--
Jordan:
I don't think you can hold up webpages this long as typical or even moderately
common usage.
Having to scroll all the way to the bottom to see newest comments and to get to
the Add comment box in Launchpad is more indicative of a design failure of
the launchpad web interface itself
@Atel, Yes, the web is broken. Ubuntu is changing it's design, and the
web is not compatible with it. The web must change.
Seriously?
--
[light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to
menu:minimize,maximize,close
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633
You received this
@Atel I ALWAYS use the scrollbar to scroll, and I know more people who
does.
I just hope this possible change isn't made the same way that the
buttons', and some usability testing is done before doing changes that
may seriously affect lots of people like me.
Not to talk about having to redesign
It appears there are two items causing concern with this team.
The first – the window control buttons are now located in the upper
left hand quadrant of the window frame.
The second - the order of the buttons has changed.
There is plenty of data to support locating the buttons in the upper
Respectfully I want to say that moving the buttons to the left and
changing buttons position is a very bad idea, if you want to do that
create a new theme and don't make it the default for the minority that
wants that.
Sure, I'll vote with my feet too if you ship like that because you are
not
Luckily I know understand that I can configure the buttons with
gconftool. My anger is finally gone. After many times scanning the
gconftool shell command I actually didn't understand the meaning of :.
The good outcome of this bug is that I have my minimize and close button
back on the right.
As far as I know, there have been no papers or research published on
window button placement, or the advantages/disadvantages of any of the
suggested positions and combinations.
What we do know already is that it appears that MS arbitrarily chose the
top-right position, and Apple chose the left
Hello,
i hope this was not already mentioned (i can't read 283 comments now) but when
you use gnome-shell the buttons are very near to the activity button.
sometimes i open the overlay mode when i want to use the buttons.
This can suck ;-)
on the other side when i don't use gnome-shell i prefer
# 281:
Really the minority? I had understand in a post before that 99.9% are
happy with it and 0.1% unhappy... they come here in search of shout loud
somewhere! and let a comment. :-) ... Well, maybe I am only saturated a
little bit with the 280 comments: yes, not, anger, off-topic, chantage,
XDD I'm really impressed how this decision has made so many noise,
they're are just buttons!! and can be changed!! so, where's the problem?
that everybody is used to the buttons to the right?, well, everybody is
used to other OS too
1. I agree in putting buttons to left, they're better when
@aysiu
The problem with your Forums post is that it says this is what really
happened and is, in fact, quite incorrect.
Some members of the design team asked that the window controls be
grouped on the left, and presented the visualisation. So it wasn't that
I prefer it that way. I didn't like it
On 17/03/10 22:34, fewt wrote:
you don't get to second-guess their decisions
You don't get to see a lot of what they see unless you're on that team.
being an open community is not the same as saying everybody has a say in
everything.
There aren't any good reasons for that
we are not voting
I suggest one simple thing.
Move to another distribution if you don't like Mark/Canonnical's philosophy
GNU/Linux world is big enough to find the distribution that fit your needs.
Personally i don't find polite the way someone treated Mark (and at the same
time Mark treated the community) but i
I'd like to add just a simple thing:
it's not easy to make every user happy...
... yes but it seems that nobody's happy.. :-D
--
[light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to
menu:minimize,maximize,close
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633
You received this bug
Hi Mark. I didn't take anything out of context, those were your words,
I just put quotes around them to emphasize how ridiculous they were. If
that's a problem maybe you shouldn't have said them.
As for personally attacking me, well I guess when you cannot win an
argument on merit, go for the
Mark, I want to ask you: What is you vision about GnomeShell? It fit's
with what you are planing? Can we see blueprints of you plans?
At first I disliked the change, now I don't care. But I must say that I
hate half baked solutions... like the new GDM (you must admit it, the
default theme is
Yes, Mark: flamewars aside, please ensure buttons on the left are not
turning into a nightmare when GNOME Shell is used. I can confirm that
reaching e.g. the icon button in the left corner of a maximized window
is very likely to lead you to hit the hot corner, especially on
touchpads - and even
Mark Shuttleworth:
However, it does line things up nicely for work I would like us to do in
future. And the major argument against it appears solely to be we're used to
it here, which is important, but not overriding.
There are many places in applications, like tabs and panels, where close
Maybe Shuttleworth should let his Communitizer handle this, if he can't
keep his cool among the very community he claims this purple OS is
about? Very unbecoming to lose your temper like that. Even for a
dictator.
--
[light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to
This is a very simple matter of people who feel strongly against a
change always seem to shout the loudest. I have the feeling that 99.9%
of users dont feel strongly about this issue either way. That the .1% of
people are just against change. Ive been using the buttons on the left
side since the
@ Mark Shuttleworth
I'm happy to see how launchpad and canonical is open to personal
contribute, but it i don't understand what we can promote and what no.
We have for example ubuntu brainstorm, forum, and other ways to comment
your work, but please, you have to say at all community exactly
forget to say that Launchpad is a good way to integrate our support in
development of application
--
[light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to
menu:minimize,maximize,close
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633
You received this bug notification because you are a
I have the feeling that 99.9% of users dont feel strongly about this
issue either way.
Oh and just a note, quoting polls is completely useless because unless
its taken from a controlled group the results are always biased.
Are the poll results as biased as your feelings, man? Comic stuff,
that
@dariocaruso
You can contribute anywhere you can so if you can write a good bug report join
the testing team.
If you can develop start contributing code and apply to be a contributing
developer.
You can become a MOTU.
Just go to the irc channel of the team you want to join and ask where to
Are the poll results as biased as your feelings, man? Comic stuff,
that there. At least the community ran a poll. How about canonical?
I didnt say it wasnt based on feelings I said it was useless because not
everyone feels strongly enough to choose right or left because they
simply dont care.
I
Can we please focus this bug on the actual problems? There are at least two
that have been reported:
- The theme preview in the GNOME appearance panel shows the buttons on the
right for these themes.
- Switching to the theme moves the buttons to the left, but switching away from
the theme does
We all make Ubuntu, but we do not all make all of it. In other words, we
delegate well. We have a kernel team, and they make kernel decisions.
You don't get to make kernel decisions unless you're in that kernel
team. You can file bugs and comment, and engage, but you don't get to
second-guess
I believe everyone has the right to comment on the issues at hand but if you
cant think up a reason against it other than
A. Im not used to it
B. Its not like how windows does it
C. Misquoting fitts law
then you shouldnt comment at all. Trolling and repeating the same reasons isnt
at all
The fact that requests for valid reasons for this drastic change is
perpetually met with such childish defensiveness, just goes to show that
there wasn't any design team who came up with this. Order from above.
In true dictator fashion.
--
[light-theme] please revert the order of the window
@Pablo Quiros, I wish YOU were the Community Manager. Excellent post.
--
[light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to
menu:minimize,maximize,close
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633
You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu
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@dayo read the second paragraph
https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/light-themes/+bug/532633/comments/188
All the 3 reasons I quoted were mentioned multiple times everywhere.
--
[light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to
menu:minimize,maximize,close
Initially I didn't like the design change either. But looking at other
design improvements, I decided to forget (forgive may be a strong word)
about the decision. previously I used Sidux and that came only with KDE.
Since I like gnome I had to install gnome.
I guess its just 3 clicks to change
This thread would be shorter, better and more serious for the design
team if we 'switch of' emotions finally.
# 194 is a back to topic and has interesting points. The design team
needs good points and facts for take good decisions. Stay by topic is
the most helpful thing that we can do.
One
On 18/03/10 14:01, dariocaruso wrote:
We have for example ubuntu brainstorm, forum, and other ways to comment
your work, but please, you have to say at all community exactly what we can
say about the project and what we can do for canonical EXACTLY.
Brainstorm is great, and lots of good
On 18/03/10 14:07, dayo wrote:
... are not just in it for the buck, like Shuttleworth, who
basically bastardized the true Ubuntu spirit for corporate gain
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubuntu_%28philosophy%29).
Time will tell. I feel quite good about the contribution I'm making, but
you're
On 18/03/10 14:31, Pablo Quirós wrote:
I've read someone who, regarding this matter, said that he is tired of
designers telling him how he should use his computer. And he is right. I
think you are wrong in one thing: you say this is not a democracy, but,
in the end, it is. Design is a
I personally have found the change from left to right strange but easier
for me to use...but that may be the way my brain works
--
[light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to
menu:minimize,maximize,close
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633
You received this bug
** Description changed:
Please centre the window title like in previous Human theme, and also
re-order the window controls in classic order, positioned on the right
side (menu - title - minimize, maximize close).
Workaround
To revert to old layout, enter in terminal:
$
Off-Topic... who cares now!
@ Mark:
Lucid Lynx is frightening good and nice-looking. Microsoft will spend
you another travel to the space for free; better said to the moon,
because they wish you out of the planet earth after the release surely!
Hold the course ... Bug [1]. :D
--
[light-theme]
** Changed in: light-themes (Ubuntu)
Assignee: (unassigned) = Mark Shuttleworth (sabdfl)
** Changed in: light-themes (Ubuntu)
Assignee: Mark Shuttleworth (sabdfl) = (unassigned)
--
[light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to
menu:minimize,maximize,close
@Mark You honestly feel that this change of windows button to the left
is best for Ubuntu? And the best time to make such change is in an LTS?
Personally I am less concerned about the windows way or the apple way
but rather that whatever usability decision the design team make should
have
Mark Shuttleworth :
That doesn't mean we should be cavalier, but I'm not going to shy away from
an opportunity to do something much better now just because Microsoft did
something a particular way 20 years ago.
It is something more than Microsoft whim. In the West culture we are
reading from
Edit: Top *left* is the worst place for close button.
--
[light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to
menu:minimize,maximize,close
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633
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