Re: NLD10 and GNOME

2006-02-08 Thread Kalle Vahlman
On 2/7/06, Dan Winship [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So to sum up: design by committee is bad, endless debates that result in code not actually being written are bad, design by very small teams is good, software with a unified vision is good, trying out cool new UI ideas is good, free code at least

Be nice to the contributors (was Re: NLD10 and GNOME)

2006-02-08 Thread Vincent Untz
Le mardi 07 février 2006 à 15:55 +0100, Christian Fredrik Kalager Schaller a écrit : Hi, While it would be good to get fixes and improvements right away I do think its to hard to criticize anyone for holding back a bit on things they are doing. Being able to ship something first is an

Re: Sorry State [Was: NLD10 and GNOME]

2006-02-08 Thread Vincent Untz
Le mercredi 08 février 2006 à 04:49 -0200, Evandro Fernandes Giovanini a écrit : I think the process used by Novell is very common in the GNOME community (and Free Software in general). For example take metacity. Sawfish was the default window manager, so Havoc could have started a

Re: Sorry State

2006-02-08 Thread Arturo González
El mi, 08--2006 a las 10:10 +0100, Manu Cornet escribi: I'm not saying taking our time to discuss changes is wrong (of course not). But sometimes I just need to try something out. If there's a new feature proposal, and some developers find it is a bad idea, but it basically looks like a

Re: Design by Community

2006-02-08 Thread Christian Fredrik Kalager Schaller
On Wed, 2006-02-08 at 15:36 +1100, Jeff Waugh wrote: quote who=Dan Winship But it seems to me now that everyone other than me (and possibly Jono) is actually talking about Xgl, and I have no comment on that. (OTOH, if you really were saying that Novell's writing a replacement for the

Re: Design by Community

2006-02-08 Thread Jeff Waugh
quote who=Christian Fredrik Kalager Schaller I was not talking exclusively about Novell, Xgl, or the new panel applet. I was talking about a serious problem in our community, and the destructive ideas, memes and role models that support it. Isn't what we got here exactly what has been

Need for lead (Re: NLD10 and GNOME)

2006-02-08 Thread Xavier Bestel
On Tue, 2006-02-07 at 19:53, Elijah Newren wrote: So, we have two merged window manager + compositing manager codebases now. My question is whether and how we can merge these. I think that's precisely the heart of the problem: decisions in the GNOME project are made not to hurt community

Re: Design by Community

2006-02-08 Thread Rodrigo Moya
On Wed, 2006-02-08 at 11:01 +0100, Christian Fredrik Kalager Schaller wrote: On Wed, 2006-02-08 at 15:36 +1100, Jeff Waugh wrote: quote who=Dan Winship But it seems to me now that everyone other than me (and possibly Jono) is actually talking about Xgl, and I have no comment on that.

Re: Design by community

2006-02-08 Thread Dave Neary
Hi, Evandro Fernandes Giovanini said: I think the process used by Novell is very common in the GNOME community (and Free Software in general). Compare contrast with Spatial nautilus and the GTK+ file selector. It's also funny that you should pick Metacity - Havoc wrote a document on his

Re: Design by Community

2006-02-08 Thread Rodrigo Moya
On Wed, 2006-02-08 at 12:57 +0800, Davyd Madeley wrote: This course of action will create a time when GNOME goes the way of propriortary UNIX: Tru64, Solaris, AIX, HP-UX, IRIX... imagine a world with Novell Desktop, Topaz, Java Desktop, the Hatrack Environment: all competing products...

Re: Design by Community

2006-02-08 Thread Bill Haneman
Jeff said (after 'Sorry State') ... .. I put it in emotive terms because *someone* has to offset all the hugging and back-slapping about Dan's mail. All this positivity about a mail that basically says this community shit is too hard! fuck it!, and just puts that meme right back in centre

Re: Design by Community

2006-02-08 Thread Jamie McCracken
Rodrigo Moya wrote: On Wed, 2006-02-08 at 12:57 +0800, Davyd Madeley wrote: This course of action will create a time when GNOME goes the way of propriortary UNIX: Tru64, Solaris, AIX, HP-UX, IRIX... imagine a world with Novell Desktop, Topaz, Java Desktop, the Hatrack Environment: all competing

Re: Design by Community

2006-02-08 Thread Thom Holwerda
I put it in emotive terms because *someone* has to offset all the hugging and back-slapping about Dan's mail. All this positivity about a mail that basically says this community shit is too hard! fuck it!, and just puts that meme right back in centre square. Nat and Miguel blogging about

Re: Sorry State

2006-02-08 Thread Rodrigo Moya
On Wed, 2006-02-08 at 10:42 +0100, Arturo González wrote: El mié, 08--2006 a las 10:10 +0100, Manu Cornet escribió: I'm not saying taking our time to discuss changes is wrong (of course not). But sometimes I just need to try something out. If there's a new feature proposal, and some

Re: Design by Community

2006-02-08 Thread Jeff Waugh
quote who=Thom Holwerda What I am missing in your replies is some sort of thank you to Novell. They seem to have done some serious amount of work -- behind closed doors, but they did it. They released their code for everyone to benefit from. So what is the big problem? So, again, despite

Re: UI Review

2006-02-08 Thread Calum Benson
On Tue, 2006-02-07 at 10:25 -0700, Elijah Newren wrote: On 2/7/06, Calum Benson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Uh, we're just over a week *past* UI freeze. ;-) I know, but didn't we always do UI reviews after the freeze, with s/the freeze/a freeze/ maintainers having special release team

Re: Design by Community

2006-02-08 Thread James Henstridge
Rodrigo Moya wrote: On Wed, 2006-02-08 at 11:01 +0100, Christian Fredrik Kalager Schaller wrote: On Wed, 2006-02-08 at 15:36 +1100, Jeff Waugh wrote: quote who=Dan Winship But it seems to me now that everyone other than me (and possibly Jono) is actually talking about Xgl, and

Re: Design by Community

2006-02-08 Thread Jeff Waugh
quote who=Thom Holwerda But my point remains. How far are you willing to go? Must developers adhere to some sort of code of conduct-- a sort of extra set of requirements-- before they can contribute to the GNOME project? Because that is kind of how your viewpoint comes across here. I don't

Re: Design by Community

2006-02-08 Thread Alan Cox
It isn't about Design by community but Design IN the community. The former assumes everyone has something useful to say, the latter merely recognizes the value of code review, security checking, third party input that -may- be valuable, and possibly getting help. If you design stuff in secret

Re: Design by Community

2006-02-08 Thread Alan Cox
On Mer, 2006-02-08 at 12:07 +0100, Rodrigo Moya wrote: This course of action will create a time when GNOME goes the way of propriortary UNIX: Tru64, Solaris, AIX, HP-UX, IRIX... imagine a world with Novell Desktop, Topaz, Java Desktop, the Hatrack Environment: all competing products...

Re: Design by Community

2006-02-08 Thread Jeff Waugh
quote who=Alan Cox It isn't about Design by community but Design IN the community. *Exactly* - and it's so easy to fall to laziness in the face of all the challenges Dan so eloquently explained in his email... and that's what has been happening in GNOME for a long time now. Let's break the

Re: Sorry State

2006-02-08 Thread Rodrigo Moya
On Wed, 2006-02-08 at 12:45 +0100, Arturo González wrote: El mié, 08--2006 a las 12:29 +0100, Rodrigo Moya escribió: On Wed, 2006-02-08 at 10:42 +0100, Arturo González wrote: El mié, 08--2006 a las 10:10 +0100, Manu Cornet escribió: I'm not saying taking our time to discuss

Re: Design by Community

2006-02-08 Thread Rodrigo Moya
On Wed, 2006-02-08 at 19:51 +0800, James Henstridge wrote: Isn't what we got here exactly what has been asked for? That 'big' changes to GNOME needs to come from 'outside' projects? Havoc for instance was advocating that in his blog entries. So if people are unhappy about XYZ in GNOME, for

Re: Design by Community

2006-02-08 Thread Kjartan Maraas
ons, 08,.02.2006 kl. 23.20 +1100, skrev Jeff Waugh: quote who=Alan Cox It isn't about Design by community but Design IN the community. *Exactly* - and it's so easy to fall to laziness in the face of all the challenges Dan so eloquently explained in his email... and that's what has been

Re: UI Review

2006-02-08 Thread Luis Villa
On 2/8/06, Calum Benson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 2006-02-07 at 10:25 -0700, Elijah Newren wrote: On 2/7/06, Calum Benson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Uh, we're just over a week *past* UI freeze. ;-) I know, but didn't we always do UI reviews after the freeze, with s/the

Re: Design by Community

2006-02-08 Thread Gustavo J. A. M. Carneiro
On Wed, 2006-02-08 at 11:09 +, Jamie McCracken wrote: Rodrigo Moya wrote: On Wed, 2006-02-08 at 12:57 +0800, Davyd Madeley wrote: This course of action will create a time when GNOME goes the way of propriortary UNIX: Tru64, Solaris, AIX, HP-UX, IRIX... imagine a world with Novell

Re: UI Review

2006-02-08 Thread Calum Benson
On Wed, 2006-02-08 at 08:56 -0500, Luis Villa wrote: Just wanted to say, Calum (and perhaps others listening in) that I firmly believe that, done right, the UI reviews can be very, very useful. It is clear that we're not doing it very well, though- perhaps it needs to be more proactive, and

Re: Design by Community

2006-02-08 Thread Ross Burton
On Wed, 2006-02-08 at 14:20 +, Gustavo J. A. M. Carneiro wrote: I know some very wise people have decided, apparently without much discussion with the community, that GNOME would switch to Subversion. But I keep thinking that, although Subversion is much better than CVS, maybe we would

Re: Design by Community

2006-02-08 Thread Thomas Vander Stichele
Hi, I know some very wise people have decided, apparently without much discussion with the community, that GNOME would switch to Subversion. But I keep thinking that, although Subversion is much better than CVS, maybe we would benefit more from a distributed version control system, like

Re: Sorry State [Was: NLD10 and GNOME]

2006-02-08 Thread Jeff Waugh
quote who=Anna Marie Dirks What a big jerkbird! So lazy! So community-tearing! Definitely the work of an evil, evil noncontributor. Anna, as I mentioned in another email, this frustration is about a broader problem we have in our community than the particular acts of contributing organisations

Re: NLD10 and GNOME

2006-02-08 Thread Dan Winship
Alan Cox wrote: So if Fedora, Ubuntu and every other Gnome using distribution also start doing tons of private development (Excluding Xgl, there was hardly tons of private development.) then trying to jam it all in CVS afterwards how do you expect Gnome to develop when all these variants

Re: Design by Community

2006-02-08 Thread Davyd Madeley
On Wed, Feb 08, 2006 at 02:20:15PM +, Gustavo J. A. M. Carneiro wrote: perhaps but the real question is why isn't this a branch in CVS? Why is there a need for clandestine development? Maybe because CVS branches are inherently complicated. And maybe because you have to ask

Re: UI Review

2006-02-08 Thread Davyd Madeley
On Wed, Feb 08, 2006 at 02:41:16PM +, Calum Benson wrote: On Wed, 2006-02-08 at 08:56 -0500, Luis Villa wrote: Just wanted to say, Calum (and perhaps others listening in) that I firmly believe that, done right, the UI reviews can be very, very useful. It is clear that we're not doing

Re: Design by Community

2006-02-08 Thread Gustavo J. A. M. Carneiro
On Wed, 2006-02-08 at 15:10 +, Ross Burton wrote: On Wed, 2006-02-08 at 14:20 +, Gustavo J. A. M. Carneiro wrote: I know some very wise people have decided, apparently without much discussion with the community, that GNOME would switch to Subversion. But I keep thinking that,

Re: NLD10 and GNOME

2006-02-08 Thread Kjartan Maraas
ons, 08,.02.2006 kl. 10.55 -0500, skrev Dan Winship: Alan Cox wrote: So if Fedora, Ubuntu and every other Gnome using distribution also start doing tons of private development (Excluding Xgl, there was hardly tons of private development.) then trying to jam it all in CVS afterwards

Re: G_MODULE_BIND_LOCAL broke nautilus-python extension

2006-02-08 Thread Gustavo J. A. M. Carneiro
So it seems that the desktop wide decision to load all modules with G_MODULE_BIND_LOCAL, for performance reasons, may break python extensions. So far, nautilus-python was affected by this. Do people have any suggestions? Clearly Python has to be fixed, but that is a long term fix; how to fix

Re: UI Review

2006-02-08 Thread Thomas Wood
Davyd Madeley wrote: On Wed, Feb 08, 2006 at 02:41:16PM +, Calum Benson wrote: On Wed, 2006-02-08 at 08:56 -0500, Luis Villa wrote: Just wanted to say, Calum (and perhaps others listening in) that I firmly believe that, done right, the UI reviews can be very, very useful. It is

Re: Gnome-utils branched to gnome-2-14

2006-02-08 Thread Alan Horkan
On Mon, 6 Feb 2006, Wouter Bolsterlee wrote: Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 20:56:56 +0100 From: Wouter Bolsterlee [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: desktop-devel-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Gnome-utils branched to gnome-2-14 P?? Mon, Feb 06, 2006 at 11:41:16AM -0600, Shaun McCance skrev: On Mon, 2006-02-06

Re: NLD10 and GNOME

2006-02-08 Thread Rodney Dawes
On Wed, 2006-02-08 at 17:43 +0100, Kjartan Maraas wrote: In a sense, but a theme is more self-contained and wouldn't need review in full the samme way that an extension to the panel menu code would. It's not an extension to the panel menu code. It's not even a patch. It's a completely separate

Re: UI Review

2006-02-08 Thread Calum Benson
On Thu, 2006-02-09 at 00:07 +0800, Davyd Madeley wrote: If we're going with the new Clearlooks, does that need any sort of UI or a11y review? I know that there have been sweeping changes. There is a lot more blue. Theme changes, even to the default theme, haven't historically come under the

Re: UI Review

2006-02-08 Thread Alan Horkan
On Tue, 7 Feb 2006, Ross Burton wrote: Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2006 15:28:33 + From: Ross Burton [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Calum Benson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: desktop-devel-list@gnome.org desktop-devel-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: UI Review On Tue, 2006-02-07 at 15:17 +, Calum Benson wrote:

Re: Credit, Leadership and Vision [Was: Sorry State]

2006-02-08 Thread Havoc Pennington
On Thu, 2006-02-09 at 04:01 +1100, Jeff Waugh wrote: quote who=Havoc Pennington Jeff, you're right that Steve Jobs style big press release is incompatible with community development (though I don't think it's a moral issue perhaps, I think it's legitimate to make the tradeoff as long as

Re: NLD10 and GNOME

2006-02-08 Thread Kjartan Maraas
ons, 08,.02.2006 kl. 12.09 -0500, skrev Rodney Dawes: On Wed, 2006-02-08 at 17:43 +0100, Kjartan Maraas wrote: In a sense, but a theme is more self-contained and wouldn't need review in full the samme way that an extension to the panel menu code would. It's not an extension to the panel

Re: UI Review

2006-02-08 Thread Ross Burton
On Wed, 2006-02-08 at 17:36 +, Alan Horkan wrote: I'd appreciate raving hordes of UI-zealots attacking Sound Juicer with its new (well, from 2.12) playback mode, if only so that I can ignore most of the feedback. Sound Juicer was a great ripper. Sound Juicer was not a music player.

Re: NLD10 and GNOME

2006-02-08 Thread Jamie McCracken
Rodney Dawes wrote: On Wed, 2006-02-08 at 17:43 +0100, Kjartan Maraas wrote: In a sense, but a theme is more self-contained and wouldn't need review in full the samme way that an extension to the panel menu code would. It's not an extension to the panel menu code. It's not even a patch. It's

Re: NLD10 and GNOME

2006-02-08 Thread Joe Shaw
Hi, On Wed, 2006-02-08 at 12:09 -0500, Rodney Dawes wrote: It's not an extension to the panel menu code. It's not even a patch. It's a completely separate applet. This is in fact, in no way different than a theme engine in terms of integrating it upstream, into a larger conglomerate package.

Re: Design by Community

2006-02-08 Thread Gustavo J. A. M. Carneiro
On Wed, 2006-02-08 at 23:57 +0800, Davyd Madeley wrote: On Wed, Feb 08, 2006 at 02:20:15PM +, Gustavo J. A. M. Carneiro wrote: perhaps but the real question is why isn't this a branch in CVS? Why is there a need for clandestine development? Maybe because CVS branches are

Re: UI Review

2006-02-08 Thread Alan Horkan
On Wed, 8 Feb 2006, Ross Burton wrote: Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2006 18:10:42 + From: Ross Burton [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Alan Horkan [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: desktop-devel-list@gnome.org desktop-devel-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: UI Review On Wed, 2006-02-08 at 17:36 +, Alan Horkan wrote:

Less antiquated format for animations (was: Plan to fix icons [was: Re: breakage caused by removed icons from gnome-icon-theme])

2006-02-08 Thread Tommi Komulainen
On 2/7/06, Matthias Clasen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: b) I believe we should pick a file format that did not already look antiquated when it was first employed in wanda the fish 5 years ago. Even gif animations look modern and featureful compared to this. FWIW we chose to use ANIs for animations

Re: NLD10 and GNOME

2006-02-08 Thread Kalle Vahlman
On 2/8/06, Jamie McCracken [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: wrt to yer blog post regarding code drops at release time, I hope you and Novell can be persuaded to do more development in the open just for the sake of fairness (as we currently have a level playing field with the vast majority of Gnome

Re: UI Review

2006-02-08 Thread Shaun McCance
On Wed, 2006-02-08 at 17:19 +, Calum Benson wrote: On Thu, 2006-02-09 at 00:07 +0800, Davyd Madeley wrote: If we're going with the new Clearlooks, does that need any sort of UI or a11y review? I know that there have been sweeping changes. There is a lot more blue. Theme changes,

Re: Less antiquated format for animations

2006-02-08 Thread Rodney Dawes
On Wed, 2006-02-08 at 21:27 +0200, Tommi Komulainen wrote: On 2/7/06, Matthias Clasen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: b) I believe we should pick a file format that did not already look antiquated when it was first employed in wanda the fish 5 years ago. Even gif animations look modern and

Re: Less antiquated format for animations

2006-02-08 Thread Matthias Clasen
On 2/8/06, Rodney Dawes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, 2006-02-08 at 21:27 +0200, Tommi Komulainen wrote: On 2/7/06, Matthias Clasen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: b) I believe we should pick a file format that did not already look antiquated when it was first employed in wanda the fish 5

Re: Sorry State [Was: NLD10 and GNOME]

2006-02-08 Thread Jon K Hellan
On Wed, 2006-02-08 at 11:28 -0500, Havoc Pennington wrote: If you guys want a specific productive suggestion, I think these are two de facto directions that could just be adopted; one is a kind of building block platform shared among the GNOME desktop, Maemo, GPE, XFCE even [2]; it might

Re: Less antiquated format for animations

2006-02-08 Thread Rodney Dawes
On Wed, 2006-02-08 at 15:33 -0500, Matthias Clasen wrote: That spec is a one-man show, I assume then ? The Icon Naming Spec? Or the APNG spec? I don't know much aobut the APNG spec really. It was brought up in #tango a week or so ago, when we were discussing animations and how to deal with them.

Re: Less antiquated format for animations

2006-02-08 Thread Matthias Clasen
On 2/8/06, Rodney Dawes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, 2006-02-08 at 15:33 -0500, Matthias Clasen wrote: That spec is a one-man show, I assume then ? The Icon Naming Spec? Or the APNG spec? I don't know much aobut the APNG spec really. It was brought up in #tango a week or so ago, when we

Re: Sorry State [Was: NLD10 and GNOME]

2006-02-08 Thread Havoc Pennington
On Wed, 2006-02-08 at 21:54 +0100, Jon K Hellan wrote: However, if we decide to target a niche audience, on a niche operating system, that's niche squared. I doubt if that's sustainable. Didn't say niche, I said specific. The group can still be large. There are many, many well-defined subsets

Re: Sorry State [Was: NLD10 and GNOME]

2006-02-08 Thread Jeff Waugh
quote who=Havoc Pennington On Wed, 2006-02-08 at 21:54 +0100, Jon K Hellan wrote: However, if we decide to target a niche audience, on a niche operating system, that's niche squared. I doubt if that's sustainable. Didn't say niche, I said specific. The group can still be large. There are

Re: CVS branches

2006-02-08 Thread Behdad Esfahbod
On Wed, 8 Feb 2006, Gustavo J. A. M. Carneiro wrote: And I have a case when I forgot to add a regular tag at the start of a branch. So now I'm finding it very hard to obtain a diff of all changes since I started the branch. I'll have to do it manually, file by file, looking at revision

Re: NLD10 and GNOME

2006-02-08 Thread Jamie McCracken
Kalle Vahlman wrote: I mean, I'm making a theme engine (for Maemo) but haven't released anything yet. Will you behead me for being secretive when I do or just let it slide because I'm tweeny-tiny myself and not a big company? I only take exception when a large company (especially one that

Re: Gnome-utils branched to gnome-2-14

2006-02-08 Thread Federico Mena Quintero
On Wed, 2006-02-08 at 17:06 +, Alan Horkan wrote: I remain baffled how the file chooser button was designed. Everywhere we have text entries followed by a Browse button but the File Chooser button looks nothing like this. Instead of a widget to encapsulate this established idea there

Re: Less antiquated format for animations

2006-02-08 Thread Matthias Clasen
So, to give some positive input to this discussion, if gif, ani (or more esoteric formats like mng or apng) are not acceptable because they are not already supported by gnome and kde, how about making use of a mechanism already present in the icon theme spec, and define a set of extra keys for

It's not about Novell (was Re: NLD10 and GNOME)

2006-02-08 Thread Vincent Untz
Le mercredi 08 février 2006 à 23:17 +, Jamie McCracken a écrit : Hopefully, Novell will release the source soonish and put this issue to rest. Please, we're mainly talking about a problem that is not about Novell. We should let Novell people know that we love them, as much as we love the

Re: requesting official list of modules and versions for GNOME 2.14

2006-02-08 Thread Vincent Untz
Hi Davyd, Le mardi 07 février 2006 à 12:06 +0800, Davyd Madeley a écrit : Has the official list of what's in and what's out been given for GNOME 2.14 yet? Several contentious modules have been proposed for inclusion and several version holds have also been requested by people. The

Re: requesting official list of modules and versions for GNOME 2.14

2006-02-08 Thread Vincent Untz
Here's my personal opinion. Le jeudi 09 février 2006 à 08:27 +0100, Vincent Untz a écrit : Here's the list of modules that are waiting for a decision: + libnotify notification-daemon = depends on libsexy. What should we do about it? Add it to the desktop set? Say it's a

Re: requesting official list of modules and versions for GNOME 2.14

2006-02-08 Thread Davyd Madeley
On Thu, Feb 09, 2006 at 08:27:43AM +0100, Vincent Untz wrote: So, we (the release team) seriously sucked on this. We're having a meeting on Friday to take some decisions. Here's the new modules that are in: + pyorbit + deskbar-applet + fast-user-switch-applet +

Re: requesting official list of modules and versions for GNOME 2.14

2006-02-08 Thread Davyd Madeley
On Thu, Feb 09, 2006 at 08:33:39AM +0100, Vincent Untz wrote: + libnotify notification-daemon = depends on libsexy. What should we do about it? Add it to the desktop set? Say it's a blessed dependency? Don't accept it? I'm opposed to have another library for general widgets