Re: Retiring app menus - planning for 3.32.0

Just my 2 cents I think one of the bigger issues isn't necessarily the difference between close and quit (though disambiguation would be great), it's instead that since we retired showing appindicators there is now no way of visually knowing if an app is still running or not. Granted, not all

Re: Retiring app menus - planning for 3.32.0

Allan Day wrote: ... > > With regard to dropping the 'quit' action, is there any guidance for > > background applications? That is, apps where closing all windows does > > *not* exit the application, but the explicit 'quit' action does. ... GIven that this is only relevant to apps that run in

Re: Retiring app menus - planning for 3.32.0

Been on vacation and amused with this thread... On Fri, 2018-09-21 at 15:54 +0200, Bastien Nocera wrote: > On Fri, 2018-09-21 at 14:26 +0100, Allan Day wrote: > > > > On Fri, 21 Sep 2018 at 12:54, wrote: > > > > > > On Fri, Sep 21, 2018 at 5:36 AM, Bastien Nocera > > > wrote: > > > > It's

Re: Retiring app menus - planning for 3.32.0

On Fri, 2018-09-28 at 16:53 +0100, Alberto Ruiz wrote: > > > 2018-09-28 15:32 GMT+01:00 Allan Day : > > Florian Müllner wrote: > > > > > > With regard to dropping the 'quit' action, is there any guidance > > for > > > background applications? That is, apps where closing all windows > > does > >

Re: Retiring app menus - planning for 3.32.0

2018-09-28 15:32 GMT+01:00 Allan Day : > Florian Müllner wrote: > > > > With regard to dropping the 'quit' action, is there any guidance for > > background applications? That is, apps where closing all windows does > > *not* exit the application, but the explicit 'quit' action does. > FWIW, the

Re: Retiring app menus - planning for 3.32.0

Florian Müllner wrote: > > With regard to dropping the 'quit' action, is there any guidance for > background applications? That is, apps where closing all windows does > *not* exit the application, but the explicit 'quit' action does. Sorry for the slow reply - it's been a busy week. This

Re: Retiring app menus - planning for 3.32.0

On Fri, Sep 21, 2018 at 9:47 PM Bastien Nocera wrote: > On Fri, 2018-09-21 at 21:08 +0200, Tomasz Torcz wrote: > > > Going extra mile to “find” shortcut is never gonna fly. Years ago, > > we > > had a perfect solution for discovering shortcuts – relevant letters > > were underlined in the

Re: Retiring app menus - planning for 3.32.0

On Fri, Sep 21, 2018 at 2:47 PM, Bastien Nocera wrote: Those are not keyboard shortcuts, they're mnemonics, used for navigating menus using the keyboard, not launching keyboard shortcuts without opening the menu. Feel free to start a new discussion about those, but they're really not the

Re: Retiring app menus - planning for 3.32.0

On Fri, 2018-09-21 at 21:08 +0200, Tomasz Torcz wrote: > > Going extra mile to “find” shortcut is never gonna fly. Years ago, > we > had a perfect solution for discovering shortcuts – relevant letters > were underlined in the menus. In some cases underlining appeared > only > after Alt was

Re: Retiring app menus - planning for 3.32.0

On 09/21/2018 12:08 PM, Tomasz Torcz wrote: > Going extra mile to “find” shortcut is never gonna fly. Years ago, we > had a perfect solution for discovering shortcuts – relevant letters > were underlined in the menus. In some cases underlining appeared only > after Alt was pressed, which was

Re: Retiring app menus - planning for 3.32.0

On Fri, 2018-09-21 at 11:59 -0700, Christian Hergert wrote: > On 09/21/2018 11:43 AM, Shaun McCance wrote: > > Can you elaborate on this? One of the goals of Mallard is to allow > > plugin docs to integrate into the main app docs. Is there something > > we > > could be doing better? > > Advertise

Re: Retiring app menus - planning for 3.32.0

On Fri, Sep 21, 2018 at 11:59:54AM -0700, Christian Hergert wrote: > On 09/21/2018 11:43 AM, Shaun McCance wrote: > > Can you elaborate on this? One of the goals of Mallard is to allow > > plugin docs to integrate into the main app docs. Is there something we > > could be doing better? > >

Re: Retiring app menus - planning for 3.32.0

On 09/21/2018 11:43 AM, Shaun McCance wrote: > Can you elaborate on this? One of the goals of Mallard is to allow > plugin docs to integrate into the main app docs. Is there something we > could be doing better? Advertise the feature? :) Does it work when they are installed into different

Re: Retiring app menus - planning for 3.32.0

On Fri, 2018-09-21 at 10:36 -0700, Christian Hergert wrote: > On 09/21/2018 04:24 AM, Allan Day wrote: > > This would reduce > > the number of menu items, allows cross-linking, and so on. > > This doesn't work well for situations where plugins are in play > because > those don't integrate cleanly

Re: Retiring app menus - planning for 3.32.0

With regard to dropping the 'quit' action, is there any guidance for background applications? That is, apps where closing all windows does *not* exit the application, but the explicit 'quit' action does. Cheers, Florian ___ desktop-devel-list mailing

Re: Retiring app menus - planning for 3.32.0

On Fri, Sep 21, 2018 at 4:00 PM Bastien Nocera wrote: > > On Fri, 2018-09-21 at 12:24 +0100, Allan Day wrote: > > To be clear, I'm still thinking this through but, if you had a page > > in > > the user docs which was a simple table of keyboard shortcuts, which > > was one click away in the user

Re: Retiring app menus - planning for 3.32.0

On 09/21/2018 04:24 AM, Allan Day wrote: > This would reduce > the number of menu items, allows cross-linking, and so on. This doesn't work well for situations where plugins are in play because those don't integrate cleanly into the documentation. However, the keyboard shortcuts window can handle

Re: Retiring app menus - planning for 3.32.0

On Fri, 2018-09-21 at 12:24 +0100, Allan Day wrote: > Bastien Nocera wrote: > ... > > > Putting aside the issue of outdated user docs, > > > > Well, it's a pretty big factor here. > > Can't we just remove out of date user docs? We certainly can, though that means there's no place to put the

Re: Retiring app menus - planning for 3.32.0

On Fri, 2018-09-21 at 14:26 +0100, Allan Day wrote: > On Fri, 21 Sep 2018 at 12:54, wrote: > > > > On Fri, Sep 21, 2018 at 5:36 AM, Bastien Nocera > > wrote: > > > It's faster to access for users, has terser explanations (no need > > > to > > > create sentences to describe actions) and it's

Re: Retiring app menus - planning for 3.32.0

On Fri, 21 Sep 2018 at 12:54, wrote: > > On Fri, Sep 21, 2018 at 5:36 AM, Bastien Nocera > wrote: > > It's faster to access for users, has terser explanations (no need to > > create sentences to describe actions) and it's usually better updated > > as it lives in the code, as opposed to being

Re: Retiring app menus - planning for 3.32.0

On Fri, Sep 21, 2018 at 5:36 AM, Bastien Nocera wrote: It's faster to access for users, has terser explanations (no need to create sentences to describe actions) and it's usually better updated as it lives in the code, as opposed to being separate in the docs. It's also larger, well-designed,

Re: Retiring app menus - planning for 3.32.0

Christian Hergert wrote: ... > > "There is no need for the Quit menu item and the recommendation is to > remove it from all locations." > > - What about applications that have multiple windows? It seems > cumbersome to track down all your windows to ensure the application exits. My answer right

Re: Retiring app menus - planning for 3.32.0

On Fri, Sep 21, 2018 at 1:25 PM Allan Day wrote: > Bastien Nocera wrote: > > It's faster to access for users, has terser explanations (no need to > > create sentences to describe actions) and > > To be clear, I'm still thinking this through but, if you had a page in > the user docs which was a

Re: Retiring app menus - planning for 3.32.0

Bastien Nocera wrote: ... > > Putting aside the issue of outdated user docs, > > Well, it's a pretty big factor here. Can't we just remove out of date user docs? I realise that my line of reasoning is somewhat hypothetical here, but if there are issues with the user docs, we ought to fix them.

Re: Retiring app menus - planning for 3.32.0

My main hesitation to having the app level menu items (preferences, keyboard shortcuts, help, about) always available is that it could make the menus unpredictable - there is a clarity in having a definite place for those items. Also, given that many of them are infrequently used, requiring the

Re: Retiring app menus - planning for 3.32.0

On Fri, 2018-09-21 at 11:05 +0100, Allan Day wrote: > Bastien Nocera wrote: > ... > > ... The keyboard shortcuts dialogue in Videos is invaluable. > > > > Its contents used to be in the README file, which users wouldn't > > see, > > the user documentation still shows the old interface (from 4

Re: Retiring app menus - planning for 3.32.0

Nathan Graule wrote: ... > I feel like having the primary menu hidden in an in-window navigation app > would be a regression from current, as a primary menu may apply anywhere, and > having the user modify (and especially here, undo) application state in order > to access a particular menu

Re: Retiring app menus - planning for 3.32.0

Bastien Nocera wrote: ... > ... The keyboard shortcuts dialogue in Videos is invaluable. > > Its contents used to be in the README file, which users wouldn't see, > the user documentation still shows the old interface (from 4 years > ago), and I'd rather not rely on user docs if I can help it.

Re: Retiring app menus - planning for 3.32.0

On 09/20/2018 02:19 AM, Allan Day wrote: > I've written some updated guidelines for the initiative > , > and I'd appreciate it if people could check them over. >From the link: > "There is no need for the Quit menu item and the

Re: Retiring app menus - planning for 3.32.0

I feel like having the primary menu hidden in an in-window navigation app would be a regression from current, as a primary menu may apply anywhere, and having the user modify (and especially here, undo) application state in order to access a particular menu item (that, again, by its definition

Re: Retiring app menus - planning for 3.32.0

On Thu, 2018-09-20 at 15:07 +0200, Alexandre Franke wrote: > Hi, > > On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 12:52 PM Allan Day wrote: > > To be honest, I'm not sure how successful the keyboard shortcut > > windows > > have been and I suspect that they're not being used a great deal. > > What are you basing

Re: Retiring app menus - planning for 3.32.0

Alexandre Franke wrote: > Allan Day wrote: > > To be honest, I'm not sure how successful the keyboard shortcut windows > > have been and I suspect that they're not being used a great deal. > > What are you basing this on? Anecdotal evidence, primarily - my own usage, talking to other

Re: Retiring app menus - planning for 3.32.0

Hi, On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 12:52 PM Allan Day wrote: > To be honest, I'm not sure how successful the keyboard shortcut windows > have been and I suspect that they're not being used a great deal. What are you basing this on? Did you get specific feedback about that, or was there a user testing

Re: Retiring app menus - planning for 3.32.0

Andre Klapper wrote: ... > Personally I've always wondered how the "Keyboard Shortcuts" item > potentially duplicates dedicated pages in some user docs > It would certainly be good to have a coordinated strategy. One obvious question is whether to list shortcuts in a separate section or

Re: Retiring app menus - planning for 3.32.0

[on documenting keyboard shortcuts] On Thu, 2018-09-20 at 11:51 +0100, Allan Day wrote: > Adrien Plazas wrote: > ... > > What about updating the name ofthe "Keyboard Shortcuts" entry? > > To be honest, I'm not sure how successful the keyboard shortcut > windows have been and I suspect that

Re: Retiring app menus - planning for 3.32.0

Adrien Plazas wrote: ... > What about updating the name ofthe "Keyboard Shortcuts" entry? The windows they trigger also contain gestures and in Games they also contain gamepad controls, making them being about way more than keyboards. > > "Shortcuts" is a simple replacement but any other idea is

Re: Retiring app menus - planning for 3.32.0

What about updating the name ofthe "Keyboard Shortcuts" entry? The windows they trigger also contain gestures and in Games they also contain gamepad controls, making them being about way more than keyboards. "Shortcuts" is a simple replacement but any other idea is welcome. Cheers, Adrien