Re: [dev-biblio] Re: [users-biblio] JabRef - OpenOffice integration

[Bruce D'Arcus]

On Dec 5, 2007 7:55 PM, David Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Currently there are complexities involved with Zotero and other 3rd party
> bibliographic apps in sharing documents and the related bibliographic data,
> which would be greatly reduced with an integrated bibliographic facility.

Well, they'll be solved by an integrated API and standardized ODF
encoding. If JabRef and Zotero, for example, both use the same
mechanism for citation insertion and updating, and embed the same
citation and bib data code in the files, then it achieves that
objective. My point is we need that regardless of whether we build
something on top of it as an integrated tool.

So I'd like to see if we can work with developers from Zotero, JabRef,
etc. to enhance that baseline support. If out that some other
developer start to build the integrated tool we originally envisioned,
that's great. But I don't think we can depend on that panning out. And
in any case, as I say, it's not an either/or choice; just a question
of immediate priorities.

Bruce

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Re: [dev-biblio] Re: [users-biblio] JabRef - OpenOffice integration

[David Wilson]

I largely different with Bruce, and encourage the development of Bibliographic 
applications that can effectively interact with OpenOffice. I differ from 
Bruce in not yet being fully convinced that we should abandon the idea of 
building a native integrated bibliographic facility in to OpenOffice. 

However, whilst some Bibliographic enhancements ARE scheduled for OpenOffice 
version 3.  ( http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Features ). There is 
no date set for this release, although I would hazard a guess for mid to late 
2008. Also there is as yet no decision as to the Bibliographic features that 
would be included in that release. We know that the Writer development team 
has rather limited development resources and as a OOo Project.  Thus third 
solution for a usable bibliographic facility now or in the near future.

Currently there are complexities involved with Zotero and other 3rd party 
bibliographic apps in sharing documents and the related bibliographic data, 
which would be greatly reduced with an integrated bibliographic facility.  
Maybe applications like Zotero will solve these problems (they are being 
discussed on the Zotero development wiki) and if they can solve them then my 
desire for an integrated bibliographic application may well be weakened. 

Regarding "deprecate the existing citation and bib support ASAP", I have never 
considered it usable, and would be happy to see it gone.

A list member recently pointed out to me that my first enhancement request 
that started this project #5038, "was filed 1999 days ago by yours truly" . 
and that it "makes me wonder if we'll see any working implementation before I 
retire (in about 15 years)." I have not yet given up hope.

I urge all the list members to to contact any skilled developers that they 
know who may be interesting in working on this project. A couple of skilled 
and committed programmers could really accelerate this project. Otherwise we 
completely are at the mercy of the priorities and limitations of the SUN 
Writer development team.


regards

david

On Wed, 5 Dec 2007, Bruce D'Arcus wrote:
>
> This brings up something I've been thinking about for awhile. I'm not
> sure if David or others agree with me on this, but here's my thinking:
>
> The OOo bibliographic project started with the idea to replace the
> integrated bibliographic component with something much better, but
> still developed within the framework of OOo.
>
> For a variety of reasons, I think this is the wrong way to go. One of
> those reasons is that the Zotero project has pretty much done what I'd
> hope to achieve with OOoBib:
>
> 1) a rich data model and nice UI
> 2) good import/export
> 3) use of the CSL citation styling language
> 4) integration iwith Word and OOo
>
> ... and so, finally a good, cross-platform application that is
> suitable for a wide range of fields, including the social sciences and
> humanities (where traditional tools often fail). I'm currently using
> it for an article manuscript.
>
> I'd like to see this project, then, work on enhancing the integration
> of tools like Zotero and JabRef with OOo. I'd encourage people, for
> example, to get their hands dirty with testing, with trying to offer
> support on places like the Zotero forums, and where possible to spend
> time figuring out the code so that we can ensure excellent support
> long-term, enhancements, and so forth.
>
> I'd ideally like to use this work to converge on an enhanced citation
> API in OOo that allows for standardized integration (and encoding in
> ODF 1.2)
>
> I'd also like to see other projects pick up CSL, but that's a somewhat
> separate issue.
>
> So I'm basically suggesting a shift in focus designed to get stuff
> working NOW, and enhance as we go.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Bruce
>
> PS - Oh, and I think we should urge Sun deprecate the existing
> citation and bib support ASAP.
>
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-- 
---
David N. Wilson
Co-Project Lead for the Bibliographic 
OpenOffice.org Project
http://bibliographic.openoffice.org

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[dev-biblio] Re: [users-biblio] JabRef - OpenOffice integration

[Bruce D'Arcus]

On Dec 5, 2007 9:21 AM, Morten Omholt Alver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> There are two other links needed for the interaction: first, where is
> the information specified by CSL coming from? In JabRef's case, it
> comes from BibTeX fields, filtered by JabRef's formatters (as in the
> FORMATTERS section of my style file). I guess we would need to find
> some other place (outside of the CSL) for this information?

Think of CSL as providing it's own generic model that one can map
different input formats to.

But WRT to OOo and ODF, I expect to be using an RDF representation
(since ODF 1.2 will suppoort RDF for metadata):



BTW, there's a developer at the Xbib project who has been working on a
ruby CSL engine and biblio ontoloogy object model.

> The other thing is whether OpenOffice will support CSL, or if we need
> to transform it ourselves into OO's bibliography structure? I
> understand that this could possibly be a difficult question to answer
> at the moment.

I have talked with the ODF TC about formally including CSL in the ODF
spec, so that may happen at some point. But I would consider the
existing support in OOo and ODF as legacy that will at some point get
deprecated. Indeed, Zotero completely bypasses it now.

Bruce

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[dev-biblio] Re: [users-biblio] JabRef - OpenOffice integration

[Bruce D'Arcus]

On Dec 5, 2007 12:52 AM, Paolo Cavallini <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I completely agree with you. Even if still work has to be done on it,
> Zotero seems really the killing app in this field.
> Unfortunately, for the moment the styles are few, and there is not a
> practical way of contributing, but I understand this is going to change
> soon.

Have you seen ...



...? In the space of a few weeks, the number of styles has grown
dramatically, mostly as the result of contributions from one person.

Oh, and with Zotero 1.02, you can install them by clicking the
"install" link; works beautifully. Also, the styles are free for any
project to use.

Bruce

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