[dev-biblio] Footnotes and with intext citations.

2006-07-10 Thread David Wilson
I have been thinking about the options needed for the Insert/ Edit Citation 
panel.  

Yet another history complexity. 

This one is from my thesis. Whilst the thesis citation style is Chicago 
footnotes, the thesis is principally an examination of two texts and I 
followed the convention of listing the Abbreviations at the start of the 
document , ie. 
-
Táin LL  Táin Bó Cúalnge from the Book of Leinster. Translated and 
edited by 
Cecile O’Rahilly. Dublin: Dublin Institute for Advanced Studies, 1970.
 
Táin I  Táin Bó Cúalnge Recension 1. Translated and edited by Cecile O’Rahilly. 
Dublin: Dublin Institute for Advanced Studies, 1976.
-
And then using intext citations to these two main texts ie.

---
After Fergus had left, Etarcumul taunted Cú Chulainn:

I think you are fine indeed. You are a comely, splendid, handsome youth with 
brilliant, numerous, various feats of arms. But as for reckoning you among 
goodly heroes or warriors or champions or sledge-hammers of smiting, we do 
not do so nor count you at all. (Táin LL 183)
--
All other citations are footnote citation. This practise is is followed 
because otherwise the text would have a couple of hundred very short 
footnotes of the type - Táin LL 183

So the the upshot of this - Maybe we do need a intext/ footnote selector on 
the  Insert/ Edit Citation panel, even though the document style will select 
which is the default position.  The option may be grayed out if the document 
style really prohibits such mixing. As far as I can tell neither Endnote or 
Ibidem has this ability. 

BTW the 'Táin LL' and the 'Táin 1' strings could be selected in the Ibidem  
panel using Short title (or a custom short title)  and the Exclude Author 
name option.

Maybe we are a position were we could come up with a (almost) definitive list 
of the option the Insert / Edit Citation panel needs to support ?


-- 
---
David N. Wilson
Co-Project Lead for the Bibliographic 
OpenOffice Project
http://bibliographic.openoffice.org

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Re: [dev-biblio] Footnotes and with intext citations.

2006-07-10 Thread Bruce D'Arcus


On Jul 10, 2006, at 7:33 PM, David Wilson wrote:


All other citations are footnote citation. This practise is is followed
because otherwise the text would have a couple of hundred very short
footnotes of the type - Táin LL 183


But does that really matter, or is this more a convenience for authors 
who don't have good citation software, like the dreaded op. cit.?


Bruce
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Re: [dev-biblio] Footnotes and with intext citations.

2006-07-10 Thread Bruce D'Arcus

On 7/10/06, David Wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Would this work? The Add/Edit citation has  text input box with these options-

Custom Short title / Abbreviation (for this citation)
Custom Short title / Abbreviation (use for all subsequent citations)

(The first option is available in Ibidem. See
http://bibliographic.openoffice.org/screenImages/IbidemDescription_html_m729d184e.gif
  )

No need to bother CiteProc, it just replaces CiteProc's version of the cite
string with the one the user added in custom the cote text box for the
subsequent citations. The processing of this would be in Writer.


That's not the problem; the problem is there's no place to store that
information.


Yes it adds an other GUI function, we could put it in an 'Advanced' panel tab
so the standard options are not cluttered. Also if the method I propose could
work it could be added on at any time ... later.


OK.


Perhaps there should be book Abbreviation data element as there is for
Journals. If the user added a Book Abbreviation for a reference, maybe
CiteProc could return that instead of the Short title. That way the user
could decide on the default action?

Another option -
CiteProc returns the Book Abbreviation which is stored in the database and
with the reference data as a separate text string along with my suggested
list-

* In-text citation
* Footnote initial citation
* Footnote subsequent citation
* Endnote initial citation
* Endnote subsequent citation
* Ibid or 'op cite' text


For the record, I strongly object to including support for op cite
citations. They are:

a) an abomination for readers
b) unnecessary with citation software
c) for both these resaons, not recommended in contemporary style manuals

At a certain point we just need to reject old traditions when they defy logic.

Second, I really dislike the complexity of adding three different
kinds of citation style support to any given style. I certainly don't
support it in CSL or citeproc. If I choose APA, I am by definition
using an in-text author-year style, and it makes no sense to to give
users the option to use footnoies and endnotes.

For Chicago, which has different variants, the users can choose which
one; each as separate styles. And whether a note citation is at the
bottom of the page or the end of the document is largely irrelevant as
I've been thinking about it. In CSL, you define note citations, with
an option to distinguish first and subsequent.


* Book Abbreviation (new)

Then the user has the option buttons -

Use Abbreviation instead of Short Title for all subsequent citations y/n
insert intext or footnote


So you want to do this on a per-reference basis? Again, you need
somewhere to store it; don't you?


Also, I was told that if I used major authorities frequently I must use the
standard abbreviations. So we do need a way of using them.


I'm just a little overwhelmed with worrying about all the pieces that
we have to get right here, and will be really impressed if we manage
even to implement the more limited vision we've been talking about
(which is still more amitious, for example, than what MS is doing).

It's worth noting that MS is also adding support for tables of
authorities for legal citations, but they are doing it in a
fundamentally different way than using citation fields. The user just
tags a piece of text as such an entry, and then the list gets
assembled.

I think for some of the more complex stuff, we might need to consider
that option. Not everything can/should be gracefully automated?

Bruce

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