Re: [dev-biblio] Re: [sw-discussion] Smart Tags in Openoffice Writer

[David Wilson]

On Saturday 02 September 2006 1:14 am, Bruce D'Arcus wrote:
> On 9/1/06, Jakob Lechner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > We consider the primary use case of smart tags to be to link
> > words (that are recognized by an external library) in a document with
> > actions provided by this library. The user usually doesn't add patterns
> > manually, but another application provides the patterns.
> >
> > For example if you have an inventory system, it could register inventory
> > IDs with OpenOffice and so have any documents containing inventory IDs
> > be possible gateways to the inventory system.
>
Jakob,

What you call 'Smart Tags' tags is very similar to the proposed 'Intelligent 
Document Tags' described in the 'StarOffice / OpenOffice.org “Q” Product 
Concept' document. http://tools.openoffice.org/releases/q-concept.html

This document describes proposed enhancements that were to be built into OOo 
version 2. However, much to my disappointment 'Intelligent Document Tags' 
were not included in the OOo version 2 product. It was never clear to me why 
this was left out but I believe it was to lack of priority against the 
available development resources. I was hoping we could have have used 
'Intelligent Document Tags' to build our enhanced bibliographic facility. Now 
we have to take other routes.

David


-- 
---
David N. Wilson
Co-Project Lead for the Bibliographic 
OpenOffice Project
http://bibliographic.openoffice.org

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[dev-biblio] Re: [sw-discussion] Smart Tags in Openoffice Writer

[Jakob Lechner]

Am Freitag, den 01.09.2006, 11:14 -0400 schrieb Bruce D'Arcus:
> [...]
> 
> As I at least am envisioning enhanced metadata, the location of the
> representation is largely irrelevant, and mostly just a question of
> convenience. So think about the ctiation case: in text, you have a URI
> ID. That URI could be some resolvable URL, it could be a more abstract
> URI (like a URN) that a tool can resolve somewhere else, or it could
> also be used to identify the embedded metadata description as a way to
> link the two.

As far as I understand you, what you want is to embed metadata in one
specific document. This is not the case with smarttags. A keyword X in
any document will be handled in the same way.

> E.g. if I am understanding you right, maybe there is room to consider
> both the same kind of use case? You use the smart tags here to enable
> a piece of document content to be in some way associated with some
> data-related 

application-dependent (NOT document data related)

> action or 

> representation.

The word itself looks like any other word. It does and can not change
representation (if it were to, 
1) the recognizer wouldn't recognize it any more and
2) you couldn't see/edit it anymore
), so in the end it wouldn't be a normal word.

> 
> In the inventory case, you're somehow connecting to a record somewhere
> (an online database? maybe tying into XForms? I dunno) to accomplish
> some task (user wants to see or edit  the record maybe).

Yes, kind of, in the case of Smart Tags loadable libraries can do
whatever action is desired.

> In the
> citation case, we need to allow tools to grab a data representation in
> order to process the output for display.

I don't quite follow you. Who creates data representations and where
will it be displayed?

-- 
Jakob Lechner
Research & Development
Fabalabs Software GmbH
Honauerstraße 4
A-4020 Linz
Tel.: [+43] (70) 60 61 62
Fax: [+43] (70) 60 61 62-609
E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web: http://www.fabalabs.org


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[dev-biblio] Re: [sw-discussion] Smart Tags in Openoffice Writer

[Jakob Lechner]

Hi,

Am Freitag, den 01.09.2006, 10:09 -0400 schrieb Bruce D'Arcus:
> [...]

> As a simple example, we at the bibliographic project desperately need 
> the new citation field implemented, and without that support, not only 
> can we not do anything useful with bibliographic features in OOo, but 
> interoperability with Word 2007 -- which is gaining citation support 
> similar to what we want in OOo -- will be quite difficult. If I 
> understand right from reading the latest Open XML spec, Microsoft is 
> implementing citation support using something like smart tags (I think 
> they call it "structured tags"?). It's really just a field with some 
> pointers to bibliographic source records, and the rendered content.

(Our) Smart Tags are mostly for linking to external resources, not
really for storing extra data (metadata) within the same document.
Also, recognized Smart Tags are not document dependent, but universally
valid for every document.

> But more broadly, at the metadata sc we are really interested in 
> creative solutions to link content with custom metadata, which I think 
> is the primary use case for "smart tags."

We consider the primary use case of smart tags to be to link
words (that are recognized by an external library) in a document with
actions provided by this library. The user usually doesn't add patterns
manually, but another application provides the patterns.

For example if you have an inventory system, it could register inventory
IDs with OpenOffice and so have any documents containing inventory IDs
be possible gateways to the inventory system.

-- 
Jakob Lechner
Research & Development
Fabalabs Software GmbH
Honauerstraße 4
A-4020 Linz
Tel.: [+43] (70) 60 61 62
Fax: [+43] (70) 60 61 62-609
E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web: http://www.fabalabs.org


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[dev-biblio] Re: [sw-discussion] Smart Tags in Openoffice Writer

[Bruce D'Arcus]

On Sep 1, 2006, at 11:32 AM, Jakob Lechner wrote:


As far as I understand you, what you want is to embed metadata in one
specific document. This is not the case with smarttags. A keyword X in
any document will be handled in the same way.


But what *is* a "keyword" in this context?

In your original email you wrote:


2.  If the user clicks with the left mouse button holding the ctrl key
on the underlined word a dropdown menu is opened where the user
can select one of the predefined actions provided from the smarttag
library that matched this word.


To me, you are using natural language processing to tag a term with  
some structured information that says "this is not just dumb text, it  
means X, process like so ..."


The keyword then is just one kind of content anchor.

Content tagging is in fact one of the metadata use cases. I can't say  
I've thought in detail about how this would work, but I could imagine  
it being quite similar.


Like, saying you have a span of "word." In my thinking on this so far,  
you might be able to attach a URI ID to it either directly, or  
indirectly thorough styles; maybe something like this in the first  
case:


	http://ex.net/terms/1";  
text:class="tag">word


So you have an a globally unique ID attach to the text.  If you want,  
you can include additional information in the file wrapper about that  
term which might well include information that can be used for  
processing.


In the more structured case (like citations) you use that association  
to actually generic rendered content.


In the citation case, we need to allow tools to grab a data  
representation in

order to process the output for display.


I don't quite follow you. Who creates data representations and where
will it be displayed?


"Who" is typically an application; could be OOo, or could be an  
external database. Display is inline.


Here's what Microsoft's new citation tag GUI looks like:





So citation is the field that contains an ID, the tag stuff provides  
the UI, and the source is then used to general the on-screen display.


I think what I'm talking about here is maybe a more general issue than  
your word example, but is otherwise quite similar.


Bruce

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[dev-biblio] Re: [sw-discussion] Smart Tags in Openoffice Writer

[Bruce D'Arcus]

On 9/1/06, Jakob Lechner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


We consider the primary use case of smart tags to be to link
words (that are recognized by an external library) in a document with
actions provided by this library. The user usually doesn't add patterns
manually, but another application provides the patterns.

For example if you have an inventory system, it could register inventory
IDs with OpenOffice and so have any documents containing inventory IDs
be possible gateways to the inventory system.


OK, that helps clarify. Thanks.

As I at least am envisioning enhanced metadata, the location of the
representation is largely irrelevant, and mostly just a question of
convenience. So think about the ctiation case: in text, you have a URI
ID. That URI could be some resolvable URL, it could be a more abstract
URI (like a URN) that a tool can resolve somewhere else, or it could
also be used to identify the embedded metadata description as a way to
link the two.

E.g. if I am understanding you right, maybe there is room to consider
both the same kind of use case? You use the smart tags here to enable
a piece of document content to be in some way associated with some
data-related action or representation.

In the inventory case, you're somehow connecting to a record somewhere
(an online database? maybe tying into XForms? I dunno) to accomplish
some task (user wants to see or edit  the record maybe). In the
citation case, we need to allow tools to grab a data representation in
order to process the output for display.

Bruce

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[dev-biblio] Re: [sw-discussion] Smart Tags in Openoffice Writer

[Bruce D'Arcus]

On Sep 1, 2006, at 8:44 AM, Jakob Lechner wrote:


We would like to implement "Smart Tags"-like functionality in
Openoffice Writer.


I'd like to offer a suggestion. I'm the co-project lead for the 
OpenOffice bibliographic project, a member of the OpenDocument TC, and 
heavily-involved in the current metadata subcommittee work there. I 
feel like all of this work -- as well as related features in Open XML 
-- may have overlap with the "smart tags" use cases, and so would be 
grateful if you consider possible synergies here.


As a simple example, we at the bibliographic project desperately need 
the new citation field implemented, and without that support, not only 
can we not do anything useful with bibliographic features in OOo, but 
interoperability with Word 2007 -- which is gaining citation support 
similar to what we want in OOo -- will be quite difficult. If I 
understand right from reading the latest Open XML spec, Microsoft is 
implementing citation support using something like smart tags (I think 
they call it "structured tags"?). It's really just a field with some 
pointers to bibliographic source records, and the rendered content.


But more broadly, at the metadata sc we are really interested in 
creative solutions to link content with custom metadata, which I think 
is the primary use case for "smart tags."


In other words, perhaps rather than just recreate where MS was five 
years ago, we can really innovate here in ways that are built on top of 
ODF standards?


Bruce

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