Re: [dev-biblio] ODF and xsd schema

[Gannon Dick]

--- Bruce D'Arcus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Oh please; don't shoot the messenger. I'm just telling you a) you're 
> not being clear, and b) the scope of these discussions are typically 
> not for this list, but rather for the OASIS lists.

>From my viewpoint (and point of view) information I need to know comes
from both the specs for OpenOffice (this list) and Open Document
(OASIS).  But you have a point; I must assume that OpenOffice will meet
the Open Document specs.  The only difference directly affecting meta
data that I'm aware of is the new (type attribute) "meta:user-defined
meta:type=".

> > Having said that, RDF is not the destination, it's the common
> measure.
> 
> What does "common measure" mean?
> 
What I mean by "common measure" is that the concepts, while reducible
to RDF,  might be more understandable other ways.  FOAF, for example,
uses an almost childish vocabulary but is nonetheless tightly bound to
RDF.



 

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Re: [dev-biblio] ODF and xsd schema

[Bruce D'Arcus]

On Oct 31, 2006, at 6:24 PM, Gannon Dick wrote:


a) ODF is authored in RELAX NG, which has far more power to validate
this sort of stuff than XSD.


The Dublin Core is "authored" in XSD or RDF, and both namespaces are
controlled by the W3C.  I don't want to produce RELAX NG schema for
Dublin Core as a prerequsite for further work.  I assume in this that
OpenOffice produces valid ODF output, and that ODF uses the dublin core
properly when the dublin core is used directly.


Dublin Core is just a set of property terms really. It's 
technology-agnostic.


But in ODF, the existing DC support is defined in RELAX NG, as is 
everything else in ODF.


...


I'll ignore the absurd presumption of high-priesthood rank for your
cartel, but will say that I haven't asked you to modify ODF in any way.


Oh please; don't shoot the messenger. I'm just telling you a) you're 
not being clear, and b) the scope of these discussions are typically 
not for this list, but rather for the OASIS lists.


And anyone can join the ODF Metadata SC, you included.


 You should feel free to summarily dismiss any proposal that was never
made.  "What to see my schema ?", I asked.  I'll take that as a "no".


Answering the question "want to see my schema?" presumes I understand 
what you are attempting to achieve with the schema, something that you 
have not made clear.



As I said, I'm not trying to be rude, but I am pressing you to
clarify what you are trying to do, and maybe rethink whether it's the 
best

approach.


I assuming ODF correct, which should explain the XSD schema.  As I see
it you have three types of output 1) meta namespace 2) dc namespace and
3) intermediate (user-defined).


Now user-defined properties are not namespaced.

To move data from the meta or dc namespaces to the RDF namespace is 
fairly mechanical.


You wouldn't be moving metadata between these namespaces. You would be 
placing the metadata within the RDF framework/model; that's it. E.g. 
this:


http://ex.net/1";>
  Some Title


... is just an RDF resource description with a dc:title property. The 
property is represented exactly the same in ODF 1.0; in the same 
namespace.


Moving the intermediate to the RDF namespace can be done in two ways: 
1) give meta:user-defined an xsi:type attribute as is the 
recommendation of DCMI for their dc and dcterms. or, 2) Use a GRDDL 
transformation ala the W3C. This is fairly new and not too well 
defined, but Chemists and Physicists familiar with Wave Mechanics will 
appreciate: A QName is 2/3 of a RDF tupple,


OK, you need to change the language here. You are talking about 
transforming non-RDF XML to RDF. Yes, you can can use GRDDL (e.g. 
XSLT), or perhaps schema annotations in whatever language (XSD, etc.).



Having said that, RDF is not the destination, it's the common measure.


What does "common measure" mean?

...


My aim is to develop practical guidelines for applications which use
ODF as a starting point.


"Practical guidelines" for what and whom? And to return to the subject 
I raised above, isn't this the job of the ODF TC? They develop the 
standard and write the documentation after all.


Bruce

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Re: [dev-biblio] ODF and xsd schema

[Gannon Dick]

> a) ODF is authored in RELAX NG, which has far more power to validate 
> this sort of stuff than XSD.

The Dublin Core is "authored" in XSD or RDF, and both namespaces are
controlled by the W3C.  I don't want to produce RELAX NG schema for
Dublin Core as a prerequsite for further work.  I assume in this that
OpenOffice produces valid ODF output, and that ODF uses the dublin core
properly when the dublin core is used directly.  

>And there's debate about whether we want
> 
> to be validating the XML vocabulary terms at all. So why are you
> using 
> XSD to try to do just that? It doesn't make any technical sense 

According to those team assignments, (we/you) How Dare I ?
 
> (particularly the bit about sticking the user-defined content in the
> dc 
> or dcterms namespace!).

No, I never said anything about "content".  The name tag, 'Info 1' etc.
of the user-defined fields if a qualified name (QName) should be
validated.  For user-defined meta data to be sharable, the author is
responsible for correct tagging and valid content.  In the case where
the ODF specifies a tag (e.g. dc:creator) then the author is at most
"responsible" only for content.

> 
> b) the ODF metadata SC (and me in particular) have been working on
> and 
> thinking about the use cases, requirements, and technical details of 
> the enhanced metadata support for the past 12 months.

I understand.  I read your PDF.  I am a user, whatever you do is fine
by me.  I'll cope.

> Notwithstanding
> 
> the administrative issues with you making proposals outside the OASIS
> 
> process, do you really think that you are going to tell us anything 
> that we haven't already thought about?

I'll ignore the absurd presumption of high-priesthood rank for your
cartel, but will say that I haven't asked you to modify ODF in any way.
 You should feel free to summarily dismiss any proposal that was never
made.  "What to see my schema ?", I asked.  I'll take that as a "no".

> As I said, I'm not trying to be rude, but I am pressing you to
> clarify 
> what you are trying to do, and maybe rethink whether it's the best 
> approach.

I assuming ODF correct, which should explain the XSD schema.  As I see
it you have three types of output 1) meta namespace 2) dc namespace and
3) intermediate (user-defined).  To move data from the meta or dc
namespaces to the RDF namespace is fairly mechanical.  Moving the
intermediate to the RDF namespace can be done in two ways: 1) give
meta:user-defined an xsi:type attribute as is the recommendation of
DCMI for their dc and dcterms. or, 2) Use a GRDDL transformation ala
the W3C.  This is fairly new and not too well defined, but Chemists and
Physicists familiar with Wave Mechanics will appreciate: A QName is 2/3
of a RDF tupple, ***to a high degree of probability***.

Having said that, RDF is not the destination, it's the common measure.

> 
> If you want to know how *you* would set up a workflow (maybe XSD 
> based?) in this new world that I have been talking about, then I can 
> probably help you think that through. It wouldn't be that hard. But 
> it's just not clear from what you've said.

It is my belief that the subject of meta data is one for which Open
Source is peerless.  Of the three types of output above, only the
dublin core namespace can ever be trustworthy in Non-Open Source.

e.g. black   white 

My aim is to develop practical guidelines for applications which use
ODF as a starting point.




 

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Re: [dev-biblio] ODF and xsd schema

[Bruce D'Arcus]

On Oct 29, 2006, at 4:51 PM, Gannon Dick wrote:


With this validation, I was able to solve at least one of the problems
with a "generic API for meta data".  The validation constrains the XML
to a set of "core" DC elements (dc:title, dc:subject ...[6, I think])
and constrains the "User Defined Name" attribute to a QName in the DC
or DCTERMS namespace (exact, Not just any QName looking thing will do).
 I have still to add XLINK to the office:meta namespace, but that's
shouldn't be too big a chore.


I don't mean to be rude, but I'm not at all following what you're 
trying to do here:


a) ODF is authored in RELAX NG, which has far more power to validate 
this sort of stuff than XSD. And there's debate about whether we want 
to be validating the XML vocabulary terms at all. So why are you using 
XSD to try to do just that? It doesn't make any technical sense 
(particularly the bit about sticking the user-defined content in the dc 
or dcterms namespace!).


b) the ODF metadata SC (and me in particular) have been working on and 
thinking about the use cases, requirements, and technical details of 
the enhanced metadata support for the past 12 months. Notwithstanding 
the administrative issues with you making proposals outside the OASIS 
process, do you really think that you are going to tell us anything 
that we haven't already thought about?


As I said, I'm not trying to be rude, but I am pressing you to clarify 
what you are trying to do, and maybe rethink whether it's the best 
approach.


If you want to know how *you* would set up a workflow (maybe XSD 
based?) in this new world that I have been talking about, then I can 
probably help you think that through. It wouldn't be that hard. But 
it's just not clear from what you've said.


Bruce

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Re: [dev-biblio] ODF and xsd schema

[Gannon Dick]

I have XSD schemas for ODF 1.0, but limited to two namespaces (meta and
settings).  The problem of course is that all 27 namespaces would need
definition.  So, I write flat ODF with an identity transform filter
then reduce that to //office:document/office:meta or
//office:document/office:settings.  I also have a DTD for these
document types.  Validation is with xalan.  I use both DTD and XSD to
validate (e.g. -s -v switches), until I'm sure that the schema is
working properly.

With this validation, I was able to solve at least one of the problems
with a "generic API for meta data".  The validation constrains the XML
to a set of "core" DC elements (dc:title, dc:subject ...[6, I think])
and constrains the "User Defined Name" attribute to a QName in the DC
or DCTERMS namespace (exact, Not just any QName looking thing will do).
 I have still to add XLINK to the office:meta namespace, but that's
shouldn't be too big a chore. 

I can publish my schemas Tuesday if anyone is interested. (Sorry, work
day for me tonight)

--- Bruce D'Arcus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> 
> On Oct 27, 2006, at 4:51 AM, juskenabble wrote:
> 
> > Does anybody know where to find a specific xsd schema, which the
> open
> > document format part context.xml must comply ? I have been
> searching 
> > for
> > quite a long time, but I havent found anything.
> 
> There is none; it's RELAX NG. Available from here:
> 
> 
> 
> Bruce
> 
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> 



 

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Re: [dev-biblio] ODF and xsd schema

[Bruce D'Arcus]

On Oct 27, 2006, at 4:51 AM, juskenabble wrote:


Does anybody know where to find a specific xsd schema, which the open
document format part context.xml must comply ? I have been searching 
for

quite a long time, but I havent found anything.


There is none; it's RELAX NG. Available from here:



Bruce

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[dev-biblio] ODF and xsd schema

[juskenabble]

Does anybody know where to find a specific xsd schema, which the open
document format part context.xml must comply ? I have been searching for
quite a long time, but I havent found anything.
-- 
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