Re: Working Ecosystems at ASF
On Thu, Jan 19, 2017 at 10:48 AM, Hadrian Zbarceawrote: > > David, your answer gets 5 stars from me. Ditto... End of the day, the money for said paid developers will be coming from some monetary contributors, and instead of fighting that they have no say in how the money is to be spent, we can simply say "Hire the developers yourself, and do the work you see most fit for you.", which is what happens in reality. If you look at the "local time of commits", I think it is pretty clear that a large portion of all contributions are "at work" or "paid for". And we are fine with that... A more interesting question would be; Are projects allowed "Hire a community member" pages, where individuals can announce their availability to get paid to work on features or even downstream application of their Apache Foo project? I can't recall seeing that, although there are such pages referencing hiring entire companies for this. So, I am curious whether a market actually exist... since I have on a couple of occasions secured freelance contracts (without the advert/announcement of availability) at ASF projects. Cheers -- Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer http://polygene.apache.org - New Energy for Java
Re: Working Ecosystems at ASF
1++ On Wed, Jan 18, 2017 at 6:48 PM Hadrian Zbarceawrote: > David, your answer gets 5 stars from me. > > > > On the funding piece we didn't even try because we don't want to go > > there. It's not really a cause, more like an effect. > > > > Cheers, > > Hadrian > > > > > > On 01/18/2017 06:01 PM, David Nalley wrote: > > > On Wed, Jan 18, 2017 at 9:33 AM, Raphael Bircher > > > wrote: > > >> Hi Bertrand > > >> > > >> Am .01.2017, 15:03 Uhr, schrieb Bertrand Delacretaz > > >> : > > >> > > >>> Hi Raphael, > > >>> > > >>> On Wed, Jan 18, 2017 at 2:44 PM, Raphael Bircher > > >>> wrote: > > > > ...Has anybody ever used crowd funding to cover development costs?... > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> I know of one documented case, > > >>> http://community.apache.org/committers/funding-disclaimer.html but I > > >>> don't have info on how well it went. > > >>> > > >>> The disclaimer was important to properly dissociate such initiatives > > >>> form the ASF, which does not fund software development. > > >> > > >> > > >> Thanks for the link. This rise a question, i got never a real answer > for it. > > >> Why ASF dosen't found Developers?. Some people say, because to > non-profit > > >> status. Others say, this are our rules. But what are the reasons > behind. It > > >> would be nice, if someone take the time to explain this. > > >> > > > > > > Resources and positions are always limited. > > > Hiring a developer and deciding what they are going to work on means > > > you are essentially picking what is important to the Foundation. The > > > ASF has long said that it is happy to pick runners not winners. That > > > means that we are happy for projects, even projects that compete with > > > each other, to call the ASF home. We hope they are all successful, but > > > we are essentially letting the community decide where to allocate its > > > time. When you pay people, you have to decide what they are going to > > > work on, and even what specific aspects of that project that they are > > > going to work on. This means someone who controls the payroll can > > > decide which of two competing projects gets more resources, and > > > potentially even effect the direction that they are headed in > > > technically. > > > > > > It also has the side effect of creating a division between the > > > developers paid by the ASF and those who aren't. (Read that as the > > > privileged developers, and the the unprivileged developers.) Today, > > > everyone (in the eyes of the ASF) is on equal footing because no > > > developer is employed by the ASF to work on code at the ASF. > > > > > > Finally - we frankly don't have the money to do so. > > > > > > > > > --David > > > > > > - > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org > > > > > > > - > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org > > > >
Re: Working Ecosystems at ASF
David, your answer gets 5 stars from me. On the funding piece we didn't even try because we don't want to go there. It's not really a cause, more like an effect. Cheers, Hadrian On 01/18/2017 06:01 PM, David Nalley wrote: On Wed, Jan 18, 2017 at 9:33 AM, Raphael Bircherwrote: Hi Bertrand Am .01.2017, 15:03 Uhr, schrieb Bertrand Delacretaz : Hi Raphael, On Wed, Jan 18, 2017 at 2:44 PM, Raphael Bircher wrote: ...Has anybody ever used crowd funding to cover development costs?... I know of one documented case, http://community.apache.org/committers/funding-disclaimer.html but I don't have info on how well it went. The disclaimer was important to properly dissociate such initiatives form the ASF, which does not fund software development. Thanks for the link. This rise a question, i got never a real answer for it. Why ASF dosen't found Developers?. Some people say, because to non-profit status. Others say, this are our rules. But what are the reasons behind. It would be nice, if someone take the time to explain this. Resources and positions are always limited. Hiring a developer and deciding what they are going to work on means you are essentially picking what is important to the Foundation. The ASF has long said that it is happy to pick runners not winners. That means that we are happy for projects, even projects that compete with each other, to call the ASF home. We hope they are all successful, but we are essentially letting the community decide where to allocate its time. When you pay people, you have to decide what they are going to work on, and even what specific aspects of that project that they are going to work on. This means someone who controls the payroll can decide which of two competing projects gets more resources, and potentially even effect the direction that they are headed in technically. It also has the side effect of creating a division between the developers paid by the ASF and those who aren't. (Read that as the privileged developers, and the the unprivileged developers.) Today, everyone (in the eyes of the ASF) is on equal footing because no developer is employed by the ASF to work on code at the ASF. Finally - we frankly don't have the money to do so. --David - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: Working Ecosystems at ASF
On Wed, Jan 18, 2017 at 9:33 AM, Raphael Bircherwrote: > Hi Bertrand > > Am .01.2017, 15:03 Uhr, schrieb Bertrand Delacretaz > : > >> Hi Raphael, >> >> On Wed, Jan 18, 2017 at 2:44 PM, Raphael Bircher >> wrote: >>> >>> ...Has anybody ever used crowd funding to cover development costs?... >> >> >> I know of one documented case, >> http://community.apache.org/committers/funding-disclaimer.html but I >> don't have info on how well it went. >> >> The disclaimer was important to properly dissociate such initiatives >> form the ASF, which does not fund software development. > > > Thanks for the link. This rise a question, i got never a real answer for it. > Why ASF dosen't found Developers?. Some people say, because to non-profit > status. Others say, this are our rules. But what are the reasons behind. It > would be nice, if someone take the time to explain this. > Resources and positions are always limited. Hiring a developer and deciding what they are going to work on means you are essentially picking what is important to the Foundation. The ASF has long said that it is happy to pick runners not winners. That means that we are happy for projects, even projects that compete with each other, to call the ASF home. We hope they are all successful, but we are essentially letting the community decide where to allocate its time. When you pay people, you have to decide what they are going to work on, and even what specific aspects of that project that they are going to work on. This means someone who controls the payroll can decide which of two competing projects gets more resources, and potentially even effect the direction that they are headed in technically. It also has the side effect of creating a division between the developers paid by the ASF and those who aren't. (Read that as the privileged developers, and the the unprivileged developers.) Today, everyone (in the eyes of the ASF) is on equal footing because no developer is employed by the ASF to work on code at the ASF. Finally - we frankly don't have the money to do so. --David - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: Working Ecosystems at ASF
On 18/01/2017 17:04, 李 铭 wrote: This [insert noun of choice here] has been removed from this list for spamming. While I was at it I checked and there are not subscribed to any other ASF lists. Mark - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: Working Ecosystems at ASF
On 1/18/17 8:03 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote: > Hi Raphael, > > On Wed, Jan 18, 2017 at 3:33 PM, Raphael Bircher >wrote: >> ...Why ASF dosen't found Developers?. Some people say, because to non-profit >> status. Others say, this are our rules > "These are our rules" would be a bad answer IMO ;-) > > The way I see it, the ASF funding development would create advantages > for companies which depend on funded projects, which is incompatible > with our charity status. There are a lot of other non-profit charities that pay people to pursue their core mission and in fact the ASF now pays people to work on infrastructure, so I don't think this really has (or has to have) anything to do with our nonprofit status. I think the long-standing tradition of the ASF not paying "volunteers" to code on projects derives more from the first part of your answer: we don't want to pick winners. Also, we want to encourage actual volunteering. > > Strict rules might help avoid that but it's probably much easier to > handle funding independently of the ASF, as was done in the example > that I mentioned here earlier. +1 I guess that's another reason that we don't pay developers: others means exist to get funding and we have neither need nor desire to get into that. Phil > > -Bertrand > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org > > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: Working Ecosystems at ASF
Hi Raphael, On Wed, Jan 18, 2017 at 3:33 PM, Raphael Bircherwrote: > ...Why ASF dosen't found Developers?. Some people say, because to non-profit > status. Others say, this are our rules "These are our rules" would be a bad answer IMO ;-) The way I see it, the ASF funding development would create advantages for companies which depend on funded projects, which is incompatible with our charity status. Strict rules might help avoid that but it's probably much easier to handle funding independently of the ASF, as was done in the example that I mentioned here earlier. -Bertrand - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: Working Ecosystems at ASF
Hi Bertrand Am .01.2017, 15:03 Uhr, schrieb Bertrand Delacretaz: Hi Raphael, On Wed, Jan 18, 2017 at 2:44 PM, Raphael Bircher wrote: ...Has anybody ever used crowd funding to cover development costs?... I know of one documented case, http://community.apache.org/committers/funding-disclaimer.html but I don't have info on how well it went. The disclaimer was important to properly dissociate such initiatives form the ASF, which does not fund software development. Thanks for the link. This rise a question, i got never a real answer for it. Why ASF dosen't found Developers?. Some people say, because to non-profit status. Others say, this are our rules. But what are the reasons behind. It would be nice, if someone take the time to explain this. Regards, Raphael -- Mein Blog: https://raphaelbircher.blogspot.ch - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: Working Ecosystems at ASF
Hi Raphael, On Wed, Jan 18, 2017 at 2:44 PM, Raphael Bircherwrote: > ...Has anybody ever used crowd funding to cover development costs?... I know of one documented case, http://community.apache.org/committers/funding-disclaimer.html but I don't have info on how well it went. The disclaimer was important to properly dissociate such initiatives form the ASF, which does not fund software development. -Bertrand - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Working Ecosystems at ASF
Hi at all According the survey, there are only 50% of the developers spare time developers. The rest works during there worktime. My question is, what for models are used outthere. I'm interested how the model works. So other Apache project can learn from it. Has anybody ever used crowd funding to cover development costs? Regards Raphael -- Mein Blog: https://raphaelbircher.blogspot.ch - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org