Re: What would OpenOffice NON-retirement involve?

[Dave Barton]

I am an a moderator for this and other AOO lists. Feel free to add me to
the list of moderators.

Regards
Dave

 Original Message  
From: Patricia Shanahan 
To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2016 15:51:18 -0700
> Thanks. Any views on whether the archive should be private or public?
> 
> Alternative volunteer for moderator?
> 
> On 9/2/2016 3:22 PM, Andrea Pescetti wrote:
>> Patricia Shanahan wrote:
>>> If you can send me a pointer to documentation on the correct moderator
>>> tools, I can also do that. How soon can we get the list started?
>>
>> Request form is here: https://infra.apache.org/officers/mlreq and
>> requests are usually honored within 48 hours.
>>
>> You'll have to specify a second moderator. I'm not so inclined to be
>> one, but if this speeds up things feel free to put my Apache e-mail
>> address there, at least for the time being (next month or so).
>>
>>> to strike while the iron is hot, and we can get a lot of publicity for
>>> an appeal for developers.
>>
>> I'm unsure about this. As you have seen in the last 24 hours, visibility
>> is only given to what the journalist/blogger likes.
>>
>> Regards,
>>   Andrea.



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Office Writer Spell Check...

[Robert]

The Spell Check option “Ignore All” doesn’t work. 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

Starting Introduction to Contributing to Apache OpenOffice Module

[Ed Fallin]

Hello there —

Having read an article in Ars about your difficulties keeping a large group on 
the project, I’d like to join.  It looks like you have a C++ code base, whereas 
my experience is primarily in C#.  I have touched on and read upon C++ though.  
My day job is a dev in a C# base, and I’m doing some of my own stuff in that 
technology of an evening, primarily web-facing with an emphasis on using 
abstraction and design to enhance feature sets with fewer lines of code.  I’ve 
been programming professionally for about 5 years, I follow the principles of 
clean code and TDD in my work.

I’m located in California, SoCal to be specific.

C# notwithstanding, if you’d value my joining your work, I’d like to do a 
little bit here and there at first to get solid in C++, avoiding memory leaks 
and so on (if those are still an issue — is there a GC now?), perhaps with 
let’s say "enhanced review” from a tolerant mentor.  As time goes by I could 
address bigger topics with minimal support.

Is this reasonable?  Helpful?

Someone please let me know!

— Ed Fallin


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Re: What would OpenOffice NON-retirement involve?

[Patricia Shanahan]

I have requested creation of the mailing list, with Andrea and myself as 
moderators.


On 9/2/2016 3:22 PM, Andrea Pescetti wrote:

Patricia Shanahan wrote:

If you can send me a pointer to documentation on the correct moderator
tools, I can also do that. How soon can we get the list started?


Request form is here: https://infra.apache.org/officers/mlreq and
requests are usually honored within 48 hours.

You'll have to specify a second moderator. I'm not so inclined to be
one, but if this speeds up things feel free to put my Apache e-mail
address there, at least for the time being (next month or so).


to strike while the iron is hot, and we can get a lot of publicity for
an appeal for developers.


I'm unsure about this. As you have seen in the last 24 hours, visibility
is only given to what the journalist/blogger likes.

Regards,
  Andrea.

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Re: What would OpenOffice NON-retirement involve?

[Bruce Byfield]

On September 3, 2016 12:38:56 AM toki wrote:
>On 02/09/2016 19:06, Pedro Giffuni wrote:
>>> What can Apache OpenOffice offer that related projects like
>
>LibreOffice cannot?
>
>> That is not an important question:
>In terms of marketing that is the only question that is relevant.
>It doesn't matter if you are trying to get more developers, or trying
>to get more corporations to use AOo, or trying to get more individual
>users to use AOo.

I would suggest that the question goes beyond marketing. It is about 
purpose as well. What makes AOO worth spending time on, as opposed to 
any other similar project?

Perhaps you might start by asking those who have been involved in AOO 
and OpenOffice.org what attracted them in the past, and why or why not 
the same attractions still exist.

For that matter ask why people have NOT chosen AOO. I know that could 
get contentious, of course. But why, for example, is AOO almost totally 
unrepresented in ODF Authors, when much of its work applies as much to 
AOO as any project?

-- 
Bruce Byfield 604.421.7189 (Pacific time)
Writer of "Designing with LibreOffice"
http://designingwithlibreoffice.com/

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Re: [DISCUSS] What Would OpenOffice Retirement Involve? (long)

[Dave Fisher]

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 2, 2016, at 5:37 PM, toki  wrote:
> 
>> On 02/09/2016 20:12, Dave Fisher wrote:
>> 
>> I disagree with consumer vs corporate. Individuals have benefited greatly 
>> from all of the free projects like HTTPD,
> 
> HTTPD is a Daemon, run for websites --- corporate, not individuals.

A question what is the procurement process for individuals, governments, NGOs 
and corporations for any Apache software? Non-existent.

This helps all of the public.

Individuals are benefited. Any Jane Q Public can put together a website and 
service for next to no software cost. It's free and communities are willing to 
help. 

> 
>> tomcat,
> 
> Web server. Again, corporate, not individuals.
> 
>> poi
> 
> This is a set of Java Libraries. Again corporate, not individuals
> 
>> Tika,
> 
> Content detection software. Again corporate, not individuals
> 
>> Solr,
> Enterprise search platform. Again, corporate not individuals
> 
>> Lucene,
> 
> Information retrieval software library.  Again, corporate not individuals.
> 
>> We are striving to be a community and not a marriage. The bar to enter or 
>> exit a community is much different.
> 
> The problem with parables, as that the audience more often that not
> fails to understand their meaning.

Or they might reject there application.

Regards,
Dave


> 
> jonathon
> 
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Re: What would OpenOffice NON-retirement involve?

[toki]

On 02/09/2016 19:06, Pedro Giffuni wrote:

>> What can Apache OpenOffice offer that related projects like
LibreOffice cannot?

> That is not an important question:

In terms of marketing that is the only question that is relevant.
It doesn't matter if you are trying to get more developers, or trying to
get more corporations to use AOo, or trying to get more individual users
to use AOo.

> The question is indeed what we want OpenOffice to be.

That would be the second question.
Part of the answer to that question, is a derivative of the first question.

> They may not necessarily want a green thing with different GUI and
different behaviour.

AOo can do roughly a dozen things, that LibO can not do. I'd be
surprised if as many as 0.01% of both the developer base, and the
user base of either program, could list those things.

The odds are that Joe Random User won't even notice the absence of those
12 things.

jonathon

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Re: [DISCUSS] What Would OpenOffice Retirement Involve? (long)

[toki]

On 02/09/2016 20:12, Dave Fisher wrote:

> I disagree with consumer vs corporate. Individuals have benefited greatly 
> from all of the free projects like HTTPD, 

HTTPD is a Daemon, run for websites --- corporate, not individuals.

>tomcat, 

Web server. Again, corporate, not individuals.

>poi

This is a set of Java Libraries. Again corporate, not individuals

>Tika,

Content detection software. Again corporate, not individuals

>Solr,
Enterprise search platform. Again, corporate not individuals

>Lucene,

Information retrieval software library.  Again, corporate not individuals.

> We are striving to be a community and not a marriage. The bar to enter or 
> exit a community is much different.

The problem with parables, as that the audience more often that not
fails to understand their meaning.

jonathon

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Re: What would OpenOffice NON-retirement involve?

[Andrea Pescetti]

Patricia Shanahan wrote:

Any views on whether the archive should be private or public?


We have no options here. Archives have to be public for this kind of 
lists (ASF archives are never really private, but this is another matter).


Regards,
  Andrea.

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Re: The AOO build system

[Damjan Jovanovic]

On Fri, Sep 2, 2016 at 8:44 PM, Phillip Rhodes 
wrote:

> Forgive my level of ignorance here, but I haven't been a very active
> participant to this point, so there's a lot I don't know.
>
> In a lot of the discussion around this whole "retirement" thing (both on
> the mailing list and on forums like LWN, etc.) I see a lot of talk about
> the problems with the AOO build system.
>
> So my question(s) are:
>
> 1. What is the main problem with the build system as it is?
>

https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Build_System_Analysis#
The_recursive-make_problem


> 2. Do we need a whole new system, or just incremental improvements to
> what we have?
>

We have a new build system, gbuild, started back in the Sun/Oracle days,
based on GNU make and which was eventually intended to replace both build.pl
and dmake.


> 3. Regarding Mac in particular, I'll repeat this question from an earlier
> thread:  Does the ASF have Mac hardware for doing Mac builds, or are we
> dependent solely on developer machines for that?
> 4. I keep hearing about how LO adopted this great new build system... can
> we in any way leverage work that they did?  Or has that already been done?
> Or is it not possible?
>

41 of our 182 modules (22.5%) have been ported to gbuild. LO completed all
of them but we can't copy from them.

5. Other than Mac builds, are any other platforms especially limited or
> restricted in any way?
>

Possibly Solaris?


> 6. Do we still build for OS/2? :-)  (Sorry, I'm sentimental old fool).
>
>
> Phil
> ~~~
> This message optimized for indexing by NSA PRISM
>

Re: What would OpenOffice NON-retirement involve?

[Andrea Pescetti]

Jim Jagielski wrote:

The issue, currently, is that the Mac OS X build requires, last I
checked, an extremely old version of OSX, Xcode, et.al. No one
has such a beast laying around.


When did you check? And what does "extremely old" mean?

OpenOffice 4.1.2 was built with a version of XCode released 6 months 
earlier.


I trust you've looked at our reference environments, right? If you need 
the link again just look at archives from the last 24 hours, I've posted 
it into another conversation.


Regards,
  Andrea.

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Re: What would OpenOffice NON-retirement involve?

[Patricia Shanahan]

Thanks. Any views on whether the archive should be private or public?

Alternative volunteer for moderator?

On 9/2/2016 3:22 PM, Andrea Pescetti wrote:

Patricia Shanahan wrote:

If you can send me a pointer to documentation on the correct moderator
tools, I can also do that. How soon can we get the list started?


Request form is here: https://infra.apache.org/officers/mlreq and
requests are usually honored within 48 hours.

You'll have to specify a second moderator. I'm not so inclined to be
one, but if this speeds up things feel free to put my Apache e-mail
address there, at least for the time being (next month or so).


to strike while the iron is hot, and we can get a lot of publicity for
an appeal for developers.


I'm unsure about this. As you have seen in the last 24 hours, visibility
is only given to what the journalist/blogger likes.

Regards,
  Andrea.

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Re: What would OpenOffice NON-retirement involve?

[Patricia Shanahan]

Do we understand the reason for the old version of OSX etc.?

On 9/2/2016 3:48 PM, Jim Jagielski wrote:

The issue, currently, is that the Mac OS X build requires, last I
checked, an extremely old version of OSX, Xcode, et.al. No one
has such a beast laying around.

I have tried creating a VMware Fusion guest but it is difficult
finding all the bits and pieces.

There was some discussion on (re)purchasing a MacMini to serve
as our OSX build machine. I can host it here in my house or
we can plop it in our NOC. Hell, I may just purchase one myself.


On Sep 2, 2016, at 12:20 PM, toki  wrote:

On 02/09/2016 14:59, Phillip Rhodes wrote:


What is the most important thing/things we could be working on?


On your own hardware:

Repeat:
  Build a Mac OS X Binary;
  Fix the error messages you get;
  Write notes about what you did;
  Test the program functionality;
Until it builds properly and all functions work as expected;

Then submit the patches and notes your you wrote to the SVN.


How do we counter the FUD that is already being promulgated in

response to the "retirement" discussion?

At this stage, the only thing that might be adequate, is a release
before the end of the weekend, followed up by a release before New Years.

jonathon

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Re: What would OpenOffice NON-retirement involve?

[Jim Jagielski]

The issue, currently, is that the Mac OS X build requires, last I
checked, an extremely old version of OSX, Xcode, et.al. No one
has such a beast laying around.

I have tried creating a VMware Fusion guest but it is difficult
finding all the bits and pieces.

There was some discussion on (re)purchasing a MacMini to serve
as our OSX build machine. I can host it here in my house or
we can plop it in our NOC. Hell, I may just purchase one myself.

> On Sep 2, 2016, at 12:20 PM, toki  wrote:
> 
> On 02/09/2016 14:59, Phillip Rhodes wrote:
> 
>> What is the most important thing/things we could be working on?  
> 
> On your own hardware:
> 
> Repeat:
>   Build a Mac OS X Binary;
>   Fix the error messages you get;
>   Write notes about what you did;
>   Test the program functionality;
> Until it builds properly and all functions work as expected;
> 
> Then submit the patches and notes your you wrote to the SVN.
> 
>> How do we counter the FUD that is already being promulgated in
> response to the "retirement" discussion?
> 
> At this stage, the only thing that might be adequate, is a release
> before the end of the weekend, followed up by a release before New Years.
> 
> jonathon
> 
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> 


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Re: [DISCUSS] What Would OpenOffice Retirement Involve? (long)

[Jim Jagielski]

Yes, still VERY valid!

> On Sep 2, 2016, at 12:37 PM, Dave Fisher  wrote:
> 
> Hi Jim,
> 
> I seem to recall that you made an offer to help with Mac builds. I know you 
> helped during incubation. Is your offer still valid?
> 
> Regards,
> Dave
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Sep 2, 2016, at 6:59 AM, Jim Jagielski  wrote:
>> 
>> 
 On Sep 2, 2016, at 9:48 AM, Jörg Schmidt  wrote:
 
 From: Dr. Michael Stehmann [mailto:anw...@rechtsanwalt-stehmann.de]
>>> 
 Patricia, we are still discussing. We are balancing reasons, 
 advantages
 and disadvantages, for different solutions. There is no decision made.
 
 And more and more I believe, it was a good idea to start that 
 discussion
 on a public list. So everything is transparent.
 
 I like the debian Social Contract and point 3 is:
 
 "We will not hide problems"
>>> 
>>> This is a reasonable approach for a project which is surrounded by friends. 
>>> 
>>> It is not necessarily a good concept for a project that has been cleaved by 
>>> third
>>> parties and whose aim is to destroy it. When the TDF had only had the 
>>> intention to
>>> make OpenOffice independent of Oracle, they would never have attacked AOO.
>> 
>> sorry, but I can't agree with that.
>> 
>> Will self-serving trolls contort what we say here to promote their
>> own agendas? Sure. What we want is the *truth* to be out there,
>> so when these trolls spew their FUD, the reality of the situation
>> is there for others to read, and understand, and grok.
>> 
>> At the very least, if what you say is true, we can claim the
>> high-ground. We should strive for that no matter what.
>> -
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>> 
> 
> 
> -
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Re: What would OpenOffice NON-retirement involve?

[Andrea Pescetti]

Patricia Shanahan wrote:

If you can send me a pointer to documentation on the correct moderator
tools, I can also do that. How soon can we get the list started?


Request form is here: https://infra.apache.org/officers/mlreq and 
requests are usually honored within 48 hours.


You'll have to specify a second moderator. I'm not so inclined to be 
one, but if this speeds up things feel free to put my Apache e-mail 
address there, at least for the time being (next month or so).



to strike while the iron is hot, and we can get a lot of publicity for
an appeal for developers.


I'm unsure about this. As you have seen in the last 24 hours, visibility 
is only given to what the journalist/blogger likes.


Regards,
  Andrea.

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Re: What would OpenOffice NON-retirement involve?

[Patricia Shanahan]

On 9/2/2016 10:37 AM, Patricia Shanahan wrote:


On 9/2/2016 10:18 AM, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:




-Original Message- From: Patricia Shanahan
[mailto:p...@acm.org] Sent: Friday, September 2, 2016 09:26 To:
dev@openoffice.apache.org Subject: Re: What would OpenOffice
NON-retirement involve?

...

I would like a special mailing list
recruitm...@openoffice.apache.org, just for signing up and
organizing new developers. No need for them to start with dev@,
especially the less experienced developers. Just send an e-mail to
recruitment@

[orcmid]

We can, of course, add a mailing list.  That does mean we need
moderators and we also need someone to watch the list and figure out
what to do with the offers.


I've already volunteered to mentor and organize volunteers. How that
works would depend on how many volunteers we get.


If you can send me a pointer to documentation on the correct moderator
tools, I can also do that. How soon can we get the list started? I want
to strike while the iron is hot, and we can get a lot of publicity for
an appeal for developers.

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Re: What would OpenOffice NON-retirement involve?

[Hagar Delest]

Message posted on the EN forum: 
https://forum.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=49=84952

If you need the message to be changed, don't hesitate, I can edit it.

Hagar


Le 02/09/2016 à 18:25, Patricia Shanahan a écrit :

On 9/2/2016 7:59 AM, Phillip Rhodes wrote:

OK, counter-point to the other thread... let's talk specifically about what
needs to happen next, given that some (plenty|most|all|???) of us want this
project to
continue moving forward.

What has to happen next?  What is the most important thing/things we could
be
working on?  What could I do *right now* to help move things in a positive
direction?

How can we attract more developers?  How do we counter the FUD that is
already being promulgated in response to the "retirement" discussion?
 etc...


The "other thread" is actually liberating. Let's go public with the risk that 
AOO will be shut down, despite the wishes and best efforts of its remaining developers.

I would like to see every possible medium used to present one message: "AOO is at 
serious risk of dying, unless we get more volunteer developers, especially C++ 
programmers."

I know we need other skills as well, but I don't want to dilute or complicate 
that message.

I would like a special mailing list recruitm...@openoffice.apache.org, just for 
signing up and organizing new developers. No need for them to start with dev@, 
especially the less experienced developers. Just send an e-mail to recruitment@

The message should go out every way it can:

us...@openoffice.apache.org
OpenOffice forums
Press release
memb...@apache.org
d...@community.apache.org

We should also strengthen the current download page appeal for developers to 
state the risk of shut down.


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Re: What would OpenOffice NON-retirement involve?

[Dr. Michael Stehmann]

Am 02.09.2016 um 16:59 schrieb Phillip Rhodes:

> 
> What has to happen next?  What is the most important thing/things we could
> be
> working on?  What could I do *right now* to help move things in a positive
> direction?
> 
As I wrote before: If we want to recruit new developer, we need a
contact person and mentors.

And we need the next release - so we need a release manager.

Kind regards
Michael




signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: The AOO build system

[Phillip Rhodes]

I was actually (mostly) joking about the OS/2 thing.  Not that I wasn't a
raving OS/2 fan up until about 2000.  But for AOO, I think the answers to
the other five questions are more important at the moment.  Does anybody
have any commentary on those topics?


Thanks,


Phil


This message optimized for indexing by NSA PRISM

On Fri, Sep 2, 2016 at 4:05 PM, Marcus  wrote:

> Am 09/02/2016 09:24 PM, schrieb Fernando Cassia:
>
>> On Fri, Sep 2, 2016 at 3:44 PM, Phillip Rhodes
>> wrote:
>>
>> 6. Do we still build for OS/2? :-)  (Sorry, I'm sentimental old fool).
>>>
>>
> please have a look here [1] and here [2] for newer OS/2 builds that are
> indeed not part of AOO but offered by volunteers.
>
> [1] http://www.openoffice.org/porting/index.html
> [2] http://www.bitwiseworks.com/press/20151218.php
>
> Marcus
>
> The OO.o OS/2 builds have ALWAYS been done by OS/2 enthusiasts, not the
>> main project (not OO.o nor AOO).
>> The last "officially supported" release done for OS/2 was StarOffice 5.1a
>> back in the Sun days and before OO.o AFAIR
>>
>
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>

Re: What would OpenOffice NON-retirement involve?

[Phillip Rhodes]

On Fri, Sep 2, 2016 at 3:55 PM, Marcus  wrote:
>
>
>> The bad things are:
> - we need a release manager for a 4.2.0 or 4.1.3 version.
> - we need hardware to get builds for Wndows, Linux and Mac.
> - we need a possibility to build on Mac (buildbot or an individual
>   machine)
> - we need people who can help with build problems on Windows and Mac
> - and we need new devs in general
>
>
OK, something I've never been clear on.  Does the ASF Infrastructure team
provide machines to build
on, or is it entirely up to us to get builds built "however"?  If the
former, is there something we need from them today that we don't have?  If
the latter, could this project acquire hardware and have it put in a colo
center or something, so
we have access to what we need?  Or can we rent time in a cloud environment
somewhere?

Sorry for all the uninformed questions, I've just been really out of the
loop for a while.  :-(




> And the best thing is:
> We have already enough food for a new release (many bugfixes, improved
> functions, new translations). We just need to bring this onto the road.
>
> Radical!  Well that's something to be cheerful about anyway.



> This fight you cannot win with words. You can convince the people only
> with doings. And in our standoff we need hard doings.  With a big porton of
> sarcasm. I'm sorry for that. But it's hard to come home from work, find my
> inbox exploded and read about a good friend who has left the project due to
> this b**hit which is going on at the moment. ;-(
>
>
> Understood.  No need to apologize for anything.



Phil
>

Re: The AOO build system

[Marcus]

Am 09/02/2016 09:24 PM, schrieb Fernando Cassia:

On Fri, Sep 2, 2016 at 3:44 PM, Phillip Rhodes
wrote:


6. Do we still build for OS/2? :-)  (Sorry, I'm sentimental old fool).


please have a look here [1] and here [2] for newer OS/2 builds that are 
indeed not part of AOO but offered by volunteers.


[1] http://www.openoffice.org/porting/index.html
[2] http://www.bitwiseworks.com/press/20151218.php

Marcus


The OO.o OS/2 builds have ALWAYS been done by OS/2 enthusiasts, not the
main project (not OO.o nor AOO).
The last "officially supported" release done for OS/2 was StarOffice 5.1a
back in the Sun days and before OO.o AFAIR


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Re: What would OpenOffice NON-retirement involve?

[Marcus]

Am 09/02/2016 04:59 PM, schrieb Phillip Rhodes:

OK, counter-point to the other thread... let's talk specifically about what
needs to happen next, given that some (plenty|most|all|???) of us want this
project to
continue moving forward.


hm, I can only hope that it the *very* most of us. ;-)


What has to happen next?  What is the most important thing/things we could
be
working on?  What could I do *right now* to help move things in a positive
direction?


*In my eyes* it's pretty simple:

We need a new release to proof that we can survice as an Apache TLP.

The bad things are:
- we need a release manager for a 4.2.0 or 4.1.3 version.
- we need hardware to get builds for Wndows, Linux and Mac.
- we need a possibility to build on Mac (buildbot or an individual
  machine)
- we need people who can help with build problems on Windows and Mac
- and we need new devs in general

But there are already good things:
- we have a few devs who can build on Linux
- we have a few devs who can work on Linux problems
- we have our buildbots in a more stable way compared with the past
  months (not at 100% but we are working on it)


And the best thing is:
We have already enough food for a new release (many bugfixes, improved 
functions, new translations). We just need to bring this onto the road.



How can we attract more developers?  How do we counter the FUD that is
already being promulgated in response to the "retirement" discussion?
  etc...


You should answer to this FUD when:
- you want to fight against all bad things that where written.
- you want to give everyone an answer.
- you have too much time and don't know what to do.
- you want to go to hospital due to a mental disorder which will come
  quicker than you want.

You should *not* answer them when you want to get a different impression 
into the people's head.


This fight you cannot win with words. You can convince the people only 
with doings. And in our standoff we need hard doings.


With a big porton of sarcasm. I'm sorry for that. But it's hard to come 
home from work, find my inbox exploded and read about a good friend who 
has left the project due to this b**hit which is going on at the moment. ;-(


Marcus


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Re: [DISCUSS] What Would OpenOffice Retirement Involve? (long)

[toki]

On 02/09/2016 12:52, RA Stehmann wrote:

>> being an end-user focused effort. I would suggest we focus on not
>> being one, but instead being a framework or library that can be consumed
>> by actual end-user implementations.

> If AOO is not an end-user focused project 

AOo is one of the few --- perhaps only --- Apache Foundation project
that is end-user focused. It is the only one that is consumer, as
opposed to corporate focused.

As a framework, or library, the project would be much more aligned with
The Apache Foundation's sphere of expertise and knowledge.

> Also people, who build binaries are obsolete.

Even with frameworks, binaries have to be built. They simply aren't
distributed.

> The first way might be the "Apache way", but it is definitely not the way for 
> and of the OpenOffice community.

Upon meeting, the couple is entranced with each other, and get married.
Having learnt more about each other, they discover that things are not
what they thought they were, so they get divorced.
If both sides had been willing to make adjustments, the divorce would
not have happened.

jonathon

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Re: What would OpenOffice NON-retirement involve?

[Dave Fisher]

Then you should give the project every encouragement to get the build process 
properly prepared.

Our outgoing PMC chair should consider the same.

Regards,
Dave

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 2, 2016, at 12:41 PM, Marvin Humphrey  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On 2016-09-02 09:43 (-0700), Pedro Giffuni  wrote: 
>> 
>> At this time I am unsure what the Board wants from the project.
> 
> My primary concern as a Board member is that the project respond promptly and
> effectively to security reports.
> 
> Marvin Humphrey
> 
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Re: Resigning from Apache OpenOffice

[Marcus]

This is clearly a bad day for OpenOffice. I don't like to read such 
mails and much less when it comes from you.


I know you since our start as Apache podling and even a bit longer. So, 
I'm very said that you have decided to leave the project and I'm very 
disappointed about the reason - which is obvious for all who have 
followed the list here.


I can only hope that you have written the mail in an angry mood and 
would be willing to think again about your retirement. Or at least to 
come back when we have made some progress towards a new release and show 
the world with it that we still can bring out new stuff.


I thank you so much for your work, time and energy that you have brought 
into the project and wish you all the best for you new way.


PS:
I still hope that this is just a bad nightmare.

With 2 big tears in my eyes.

Marcus



Am 09/02/2016 03:43 PM, schrieb Kay Schenk:

I'm resigning from Apache OpenOffice. I've been an unpaid volunteer with
OpenOffice.org and Apache OpenOffice since April, 2001.  At this point, I'm
thinking it's time to move on.

A big THANK YOU to all the developers that made OpenOffice the outstanding
open source product it is today.  THANK YOU to all the community members
who contributed tirelessly to the  ancillary  functions of both these
projects. And finally, special thanks to the infrastructure team at the
Apache Software Foundation for the remarkable job they did for Apache
OpenOffice and continue to do.

Best wishes to all of you, and may the road ahead for OpenOffice be smooth.

I'm assuming that my karma to the following areas will be removed later
today: committer rights to the source svn repository; rights to the PMC and
security lists and repositories.


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Re: What would OpenOffice NON-retirement involve?

[Marcus]

Am 09/02/2016 06:25 PM, schrieb Patricia Shanahan:

On 9/2/2016 7:59 AM, Phillip Rhodes wrote:

OK, counter-point to the other thread... let's talk specifically about
what
needs to happen next, given that some (plenty|most|all|???) of us want
this
project to
continue moving forward.

What has to happen next? What is the most important thing/things we could
be
working on? What could I do *right now* to help move things in a positive
direction?

How can we attract more developers? How do we counter the FUD that is
already being promulgated in response to the "retirement" discussion?
etc...


The "other thread" is actually liberating. Let's go public with the risk
that AOO will be shut down, despite the wishes and best efforts of its
remaining developers.

I would like to see every possible medium used to present one message:
"AOO is at serious risk of dying, unless we get more volunteer
developers, especially C++ programmers."

I know we need other skills as well, but I don't want to dilute or
complicate that message.

I would like a special mailing list recruitm...@openoffice.apache.org,
just for signing up and organizing new developers. No need for them to
start with dev@, especially the less experienced developers. Just send
an e-mail to recruitment@

The message should go out every way it can:

us...@openoffice.apache.org
OpenOffice forums
Press release
memb...@apache.org
d...@community.apache.org

We should also strengthen the current download page appeal for
developers to state the risk of shut down.


if you have some more ideas let me know. This is a point we can get 
quite quickly published.


Marcus


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Re: What would OpenOffice NON-retirement involve?

[Marvin Humphrey]

On 2016-09-02 09:43 (-0700), Pedro Giffuni  wrote: 

> At this time I am unsure what the Board wants from the project.

My primary concern as a Board member is that the project respond promptly and
effectively to security reports.

Marvin Humphrey

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Re: What would OpenOffice NON-retirement involve?

[Dave Fisher]

Hi -

Awesome. These are the kinds of questions that should energize the project. 
Base is a problem, but there are many Java bridges that can be plugged if we 
open up the configuration.

Regards,
Dave

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 2, 2016, at 11:40 AM, Phillip Rhodes  wrote:

>> If you excuse the comment from an outsider, I suggest the question you
>> need to answer is: What can Apache OpenOffice offer that related
>> projects like LibreOffice cannot?
> 
> That's a good question.  The one obvious thing, which matters to some
> people, but not others, is "be licensed under the ALv2".
> 
> From a feature standpoint, I don't think there is anything we can do that
> somebody else couldn't do - in principle.   However, different projects can
> evolve in different directions based on the choices made by the
> developers.  What I'd like to see AOO do a bit (and I hope to help with
> some of this) is to develop tighter integration with the "big data" world,
> which largely revolves around the ASF anyway.  This obviously applies
> mainly to Calc.  But there, I'd like to see easier and more direct ways to
> share data between Calc and, say, a Spark cluster, or Impala, etc.   I'd
> also like to see more in the way of accessing external API's and using 3rd
> party languages like R.  Integration with Arrow is something that could be
> interesting.   And something that was talked about a while back, but I
> think went largely unfulfilled, was the idea of adding more "social"
> integration into AOO.  I'd still like to see us do some things there.
> 
> Now if any of that came to fruition, it's possible that other projects like
> LO might simply choose to integrate those features into their codebase
> (which they're welcome to do).  But maybe they'll decide their interests
> are elsewhere and choose not to.  Who knows?
> 
> 
> Phil


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Re: What would OpenOffice NON-retirement involve?

[toki]

On 02/09/2016 17:21, Phillip Rhodes wrote:

>> a Mac Mini with 500 GB hard disk and Mac OS Yosemite delivered on Sunday. 
> Is such a machine sufficiently powerful for building AOO, 

Yes.

>and doing so in a reasonable period of time?

That depends upon what the user considers "reasonable".

For full fledged development, I think it is inadequate, simply because
of the time it will take to build AOo. As a test bed machine, it is
adequate.

jonathon

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Re: What would OpenOffice NON-retirement involve?

[Phillip Rhodes]

> If you excuse the comment from an outsider, I suggest the question you
> need to answer is: What can Apache OpenOffice offer that related
> projects like LibreOffice cannot?
>

That's a good question.  The one obvious thing, which matters to some
people, but not others, is "be licensed under the ALv2".

>From a feature standpoint, I don't think there is anything we can do that
somebody else couldn't do - in principle.   However, different projects can
evolve in different directions based on the choices made by the
developers.  What I'd like to see AOO do a bit (and I hope to help with
some of this) is to develop tighter integration with the "big data" world,
which largely revolves around the ASF anyway.  This obviously applies
mainly to Calc.  But there, I'd like to see easier and more direct ways to
share data between Calc and, say, a Spark cluster, or Impala, etc.   I'd
also like to see more in the way of accessing external API's and using 3rd
party languages like R.  Integration with Arrow is something that could be
interesting.   And something that was talked about a while back, but I
think went largely unfulfilled, was the idea of adding more "social"
integration into AOO.  I'd still like to see us do some things there.

Now if any of that came to fruition, it's possible that other projects like
LO might simply choose to integrate those features into their codebase
(which they're welcome to do).  But maybe they'll decide their interests
are elsewhere and choose not to.  Who knows?


Phil

Re: What would OpenOffice NON-retirement involve?

[Bruce Byfield]

On September 2, 2016 10:59:55 AM Phillip Rhodes wrote:
>OK, counter-point to the other thread... let's talk specifically about
>what needs to happen next, given that some (plenty|most|all|???) of us
>want this project to
>continue moving forward.
>
>What has to happen next?  What is the most important thing/things we
>could be
>working on?  What could I do *right now* to help move things in a
>positive direction?
>
>How can we attract more developers?  How do we counter the FUD that is
>already being promulgated in response to the "retirement" discussion?
> etc...

If you excuse the comment from an outsider, I suggest the question you 
need to answer is: What can Apache OpenOffice offer that related 
projects like LibreOffice cannot?

(And, incidentally, although I'm a journalist, I am notabout to announc 
that AOO is shutting down. A couple of years ago, the project looked 
shaky, yet it managed to survive. The thread is fascinating, but 
obviously speculative at this point).

-- 
Bruce Byfield 604.421.7189 (Pacific time)
Writer of "Designing with LibreOffice"
http://designingwithlibreoffice.com/

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Re: What would OpenOffice NON-retirement involve?

[Dave Brondsema]

On 9/2/16 12:25 PM, Patricia Shanahan wrote:
> On 9/2/2016 7:59 AM, Phillip Rhodes wrote:
>> OK, counter-point to the other thread... let's talk specifically about what
>> needs to happen next, given that some (plenty|most|all|???) of us want this
>> project to
>> continue moving forward.
>>
>> What has to happen next?  What is the most important thing/things we could
>> be
>> working on?  What could I do *right now* to help move things in a positive
>> direction?
>>
>> How can we attract more developers?  How do we counter the FUD that is
>> already being promulgated in response to the "retirement" discussion?
>>  etc...
> 
> The "other thread" is actually liberating. Let's go public with the risk that
> AOO will be shut down, despite the wishes and best efforts of its remaining
> developers.
> 
> I would like to see every possible medium used to present one message: "AOO is
> at serious risk of dying, unless we get more volunteer developers, especially
> C++ programmers."

IMO yes, this is a good tactic.  Since the news is getting public, best to
embrace it.

> I know we need other skills as well, but I don't want to dilute or complicate
> that message.
> 
> I would like a special mailing list recruitm...@openoffice.apache.org, just 
> for
> signing up and organizing new developers. No need for them to start with dev@,
> especially the less experienced developers. Just send an e-mail to 
> recruitment@
> 
> The message should go out every way it can:
> 
> us...@openoffice.apache.org
> OpenOffice forums
> Press release
> memb...@apache.org
> d...@community.apache.org

As stated on the other thread, SourceForge could run messaging as well, to help
get the word out.  Best for the PMC to craft the content of course, but SF could
run it on many places if desired.  E.g. newsletter, announcement banner on
developer pages, social media, etc.  Lots of options.

> 
> We should also strengthen the current download page appeal for developers to
> state the risk of shut down.
> 
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
> 



-- 
Dave Brondsema : d...@brondsema.net
http://www.brondsema.net : personal
http://www.splike.com : programming
  <><

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Re: What would OpenOffice NON-retirement involve?

[Phillip Rhodes]

Doing some reading, it looks like it may indeed be possible to run OS X on
VirtualBox at least under Windows (not sure about Linux).   If so, I might
be willing to spend some money on an EC2 instance to do Mac builds,
especially if it doesn't need to be up 24x7.

Question:  Does the ASF have any Mac hardware for doing Mac builds?  Or is
everything Mac related left to being done on individual developer machines?


Phil


This message optimized for indexing by NSA PRISM

On Fri, Sep 2, 2016 at 1:33 PM, Patricia Shanahan  wrote:

> I understand your problem. Until now, I have only owned one Apple desktop,
> the Apple II I bought in 1980. I took a dislike to Macs the first time I
> tried one.
>
>
> On 9/2/2016 10:32 AM, Phillip Rhodes wrote:
>
>> No doubt.  My problem on this is that I hate Apple, Macintosh, and
>> everything to do with their proprietary, closed-source, walled-garden
>> ecosystem.  I could possibly pinch my nose shut and buy a cheap Mac to
>> help
>> with AOO development, but there's a limit to how much I'd be willing to
>> spend.
>>
>>
>> Phil
>>
>>
>> This message optimized for indexing by NSA PRISM
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 2, 2016 at 1:26 PM, Patricia Shanahan  wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>> On 9/2/2016 10:21 AM, Phillip Rhodes wrote:
>>>
>>> On Fri, Sep 2, 2016 at 1:18 PM, Patricia Shanahan  wrote:

 Looking at it the other way round, for under $500 I could have a Mac
 Mini

> with 500 GB hard disk and Mac OS Yosemite delivered on Sunday. That is
> less
> than 10 months of macincloud.
>
>


 Is such a machine sufficiently powerful for building AOO, and doing so
 in
 a
 reasonable period of time?


>>> I don't know, but it is more powerful than the macinbcloud offering. If I
>>> were buying myself a Mac, I would go for a more expensive system with
>>> more
>>> cores, bigger memory, and a terabyte-scale disk.
>>>
>>>
>>> -
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
> -
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>
>

Re: What would OpenOffice NON-retirement involve?

[Patricia Shanahan]

On 9/2/2016 10:18 AM, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:




-Original Message- From: Patricia Shanahan
[mailto:p...@acm.org] Sent: Friday, September 2, 2016 09:26 To:
dev@openoffice.apache.org Subject: Re: What would OpenOffice
NON-retirement involve?

On 9/2/2016 7:59 AM, Phillip Rhodes wrote:

OK, counter-point to the other thread... let's talk specifically
about

what

needs to happen next, given that some (plenty|most|all|???) of us
want

this

project to continue moving forward.

What has to happen next?  What is the most important thing/things
we

could

be working on?  What could I do *right now* to help move things
in a

positive

direction?

How can we attract more developers?  How do we counter the FUD
that is already being promulgated in response to the "retirement"
discussion? etc...


The "other thread" is actually liberating. Let's go public with the
risk that AOO will be shut down, despite the wishes and best
efforts of its remaining developers.

[orcmid]

I think that is a great approach, Patricia.



I would like to see every possible medium used to present one
message: "AOO is at serious risk of dying, unless we get more
volunteer developers, especially C++ programmers."

I know we need other skills as well, but I don't want to dilute or
complicate that message.

I would like a special mailing list
recruitm...@openoffice.apache.org, just for signing up and
organizing new developers. No need for them to start with dev@,
especially the less experienced developers. Just send an e-mail to
recruitment@

[orcmid]

We can, of course, add a mailing list.  That does mean we need
moderators and we also need someone to watch the list and figure out
what to do with the offers.


I've already volunteered to mentor and organize volunteers. How that 
works would depend on how many volunteers we get.




Something we can easily do already [as well], and we have not acted
on it, is add the ASF Help Wanted widget in a number of places.  We
can then populate the database the Widget uses with specific requests
for assistance on Apache OpenOffice.  The benefit is that (1) these
can be focused tasks, (2) the Help Wanted will also be visible in
other places among the Help Wanted from other projects, and (3) the
Help Wanted item provides enough properties about skill requirements
and nature of the task, as well as a link to details that help the
interested volunteer find details enough to decide how to
contribute.

Addition of the help-wanted widget can be done immediately.

I have another promised activity for this US Holiday weekend, but I
will dig into that too.

- Dennis




The message should go out every way it can:

us...@openoffice.apache.org OpenOffice forums Press release
memb...@apache.org d...@community.apache.org

We should also strengthen the current download page appeal for
developers to state the risk of shut down.


-



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Re: What would OpenOffice NON-retirement involve?

[Patricia Shanahan]

I understand your problem. Until now, I have only owned one Apple 
desktop, the Apple II I bought in 1980. I took a dislike to Macs the 
first time I tried one.


On 9/2/2016 10:32 AM, Phillip Rhodes wrote:

No doubt.  My problem on this is that I hate Apple, Macintosh, and
everything to do with their proprietary, closed-source, walled-garden
ecosystem.  I could possibly pinch my nose shut and buy a cheap Mac to help
with AOO development, but there's a limit to how much I'd be willing to
spend.


Phil


This message optimized for indexing by NSA PRISM

On Fri, Sep 2, 2016 at 1:26 PM, Patricia Shanahan  wrote:




On 9/2/2016 10:21 AM, Phillip Rhodes wrote:


On Fri, Sep 2, 2016 at 1:18 PM, Patricia Shanahan  wrote:

Looking at it the other way round, for under $500 I could have a Mac Mini

with 500 GB hard disk and Mac OS Yosemite delivered on Sunday. That is
less
than 10 months of macincloud.





Is such a machine sufficiently powerful for building AOO, and doing so in
a
reasonable period of time?



I don't know, but it is more powerful than the macinbcloud offering. If I
were buying myself a Mac, I would go for a more expensive system with more
cores, bigger memory, and a terabyte-scale disk.


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Re: What would OpenOffice NON-retirement involve?

[Phillip Rhodes]

No doubt.  My problem on this is that I hate Apple, Macintosh, and
everything to do with their proprietary, closed-source, walled-garden
ecosystem.  I could possibly pinch my nose shut and buy a cheap Mac to help
with AOO development, but there's a limit to how much I'd be willing to
spend.


Phil


This message optimized for indexing by NSA PRISM

On Fri, Sep 2, 2016 at 1:26 PM, Patricia Shanahan  wrote:

>
>
> On 9/2/2016 10:21 AM, Phillip Rhodes wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Sep 2, 2016 at 1:18 PM, Patricia Shanahan  wrote:
>>
>> Looking at it the other way round, for under $500 I could have a Mac Mini
>>> with 500 GB hard disk and Mac OS Yosemite delivered on Sunday. That is
>>> less
>>> than 10 months of macincloud.
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Is such a machine sufficiently powerful for building AOO, and doing so in
>> a
>> reasonable period of time?
>>
>
> I don't know, but it is more powerful than the macinbcloud offering. If I
> were buying myself a Mac, I would go for a more expensive system with more
> cores, bigger memory, and a terabyte-scale disk.
>
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
>
>

Re: What would OpenOffice NON-retirement involve?

[Patricia Shanahan]

On 9/2/2016 10:21 AM, Phillip Rhodes wrote:

On Fri, Sep 2, 2016 at 1:18 PM, Patricia Shanahan  wrote:


Looking at it the other way round, for under $500 I could have a Mac Mini
with 500 GB hard disk and Mac OS Yosemite delivered on Sunday. That is less
than 10 months of macincloud.




Is such a machine sufficiently powerful for building AOO, and doing so in a
reasonable period of time?


I don't know, but it is more powerful than the macinbcloud offering. If 
I were buying myself a Mac, I would go for a more expensive system with 
more cores, bigger memory, and a terabyte-scale disk.


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Re: What would OpenOffice NON-retirement involve?

[Phillip Rhodes]

On Fri, Sep 2, 2016 at 1:18 PM, Patricia Shanahan  wrote:

> Looking at it the other way round, for under $500 I could have a Mac Mini
> with 500 GB hard disk and Mac OS Yosemite delivered on Sunday. That is less
> than 10 months of macincloud.



Is such a machine sufficiently powerful for building AOO, and doing so in a
reasonable period of time?


Phil

Re: What would OpenOffice NON-retirement involve?

[Patricia Shanahan]

Looking at it the other way round, for under $500 I could have a Mac 
Mini with 500 GB hard disk and Mac OS Yosemite delivered on Sunday. That 
is less than 10 months of macincloud.


On 9/2/2016 10:11 AM, Phillip Rhodes wrote:

That's unfortunate.  And Apple doesn't allow running OSX under a VM on
another
OS do they?


Phil


This message optimized for indexing by NSA PRISM

On Fri, Sep 2, 2016 at 1:09 PM, Patricia Shanahan  wrote:


I looked at some of those services a few weeks ago. For the ones I
found, the relatively inexpensive options did not have the capability of
building software, let alone the capacity for build a substantial body
of software. The options with the capability and capacity would cost
more than a Mac Mini over a few months.

For example, for macincloud we would need the "Dedicated Server" plan
($49+) with added "Optional Build Server Plan". Even their maximum
upgrade of 250 GB would not be enough for AOO building.

The conclusion I reached was that if I were going to do any Mac
development it would take less of my time and energy to buy one of the
more powerful Macs and manage it directly.




On 9/2/2016 9:53 AM, Phillip Rhodes wrote:


Sadly, I don't own a Mac.  I use one at work, but all of my personal
hardware
is PC based, running Linux.

I wonder if it would work to use something like this:

http://www.macincloud.com/

Anybody have any experience with something like that?


Phil


This message optimized for indexing by NSA PRISM

On Fri, Sep 2, 2016 at 12:20 PM, toki  wrote:

On 02/09/2016 14:59, Phillip Rhodes wrote:


What is the most important thing/things we could be working on?




On your own hardware:

Repeat:
   Build a Mac OS X Binary;
   Fix the error messages you get;
   Write notes about what you did;
   Test the program functionality;
Until it builds properly and all functions work as expected;

Then submit the patches and notes your you wrote to the SVN.

How do we counter the FUD that is already being promulgated in



response to the "retirement" discussion?

At this stage, the only thing that might be adequate, is a release
before the end of the weekend, followed up by a release before New Years.

jonathon

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RE: What would OpenOffice NON-retirement involve?

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

> -Original Message-
> From: Patricia Shanahan [mailto:p...@acm.org]
> Sent: Friday, September 2, 2016 09:26
> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
> Subject: Re: What would OpenOffice NON-retirement involve?
> 
> On 9/2/2016 7:59 AM, Phillip Rhodes wrote:
> > OK, counter-point to the other thread... let's talk specifically about
> what
> > needs to happen next, given that some (plenty|most|all|???) of us want
> this
> > project to
> > continue moving forward.
> >
> > What has to happen next?  What is the most important thing/things we
> could
> > be
> > working on?  What could I do *right now* to help move things in a
> positive
> > direction?
> >
> > How can we attract more developers?  How do we counter the FUD that is
> > already being promulgated in response to the "retirement" discussion?
> >  etc...
> 
> The "other thread" is actually liberating. Let's go public with the risk
> that AOO will be shut down, despite the wishes and best efforts of its
> remaining developers.
[orcmid] 

I think that is a great approach, Patricia.

> 
> I would like to see every possible medium used to present one message:
> "AOO is at serious risk of dying, unless we get more volunteer
> developers, especially C++ programmers."
> 
> I know we need other skills as well, but I don't want to dilute or
> complicate that message.
> 
> I would like a special mailing list recruitm...@openoffice.apache.org,
> just for signing up and organizing new developers. No need for them to
> start with dev@, especially the less experienced developers. Just send
> an e-mail to recruitment@
[orcmid] 

We can, of course, add a mailing list.  That does mean we need moderators and 
we also need someone to watch the list and figure out what to do with the 
offers.

Something we can easily do already [as well], and we have not acted on it, is 
add the ASF Help Wanted widget in a number of places.  We can then populate the 
database the Widget uses with specific requests for assistance on Apache 
OpenOffice.  The benefit is that (1) these can be focused tasks, (2) the Help 
Wanted will also be visible in other places among the Help Wanted from other 
projects, and (3) the Help Wanted item provides enough properties about skill 
requirements and nature of the task, as well as a link to details that help the 
interested volunteer find details enough to decide how to contribute.

Addition of the help-wanted widget can be done immediately.  

I have another promised activity for this US Holiday weekend, but I will dig 
into that too.

 - Dennis


> 
> The message should go out every way it can:
> 
> us...@openoffice.apache.org
> OpenOffice forums
> Press release
> memb...@apache.org
> d...@community.apache.org
> 
> We should also strengthen the current download page appeal for
> developers to state the risk of shut down.
> 
> 
> -
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Re: What would OpenOffice NON-retirement involve?

[Patricia Shanahan]

On 9/2/2016 10:09 AM, Patricia Shanahan wrote:

I looked at some of those services a few weeks ago. For the ones I
found, the relatively inexpensive options did not have the capability of
building software, let alone the capacity for build a substantial body
of software. The options with the capability and capacity would cost
more than a Mac Mini over a few months.

For example, for macincloud we would need the "Dedicated Server" plan
($49+) with added "Optional Build Server Plan". Even their maximum
upgrade of 250 GB would not be enough for AOO building.


I'm not being quite fair there. I keep multiple versions of AOO around, 
and can afford disk space. We might be able to make do with the basic 50 
GB of disk space if managed the space more carefully.




The conclusion I reached was that if I were going to do any Mac
development it would take less of my time and energy to buy one of the
more powerful Macs and manage it directly.



On 9/2/2016 9:53 AM, Phillip Rhodes wrote:

Sadly, I don't own a Mac.  I use one at work, but all of my personal
hardware
is PC based, running Linux.

I wonder if it would work to use something like this:

http://www.macincloud.com/

Anybody have any experience with something like that?


Phil


This message optimized for indexing by NSA PRISM

On Fri, Sep 2, 2016 at 12:20 PM, toki  wrote:


On 02/09/2016 14:59, Phillip Rhodes wrote:


What is the most important thing/things we could be working on?


On your own hardware:

Repeat:
   Build a Mac OS X Binary;
   Fix the error messages you get;
   Write notes about what you did;
   Test the program functionality;
Until it builds properly and all functions work as expected;

Then submit the patches and notes your you wrote to the SVN.


How do we counter the FUD that is already being promulgated in

response to the "retirement" discussion?

At this stage, the only thing that might be adequate, is a release
before the end of the weekend, followed up by a release before New
Years.

jonathon

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Re: What would OpenOffice NON-retirement involve?

[Phillip Rhodes]

That's unfortunate.  And Apple doesn't allow running OSX under a VM on
another
OS do they?


Phil


This message optimized for indexing by NSA PRISM

On Fri, Sep 2, 2016 at 1:09 PM, Patricia Shanahan  wrote:

> I looked at some of those services a few weeks ago. For the ones I
> found, the relatively inexpensive options did not have the capability of
> building software, let alone the capacity for build a substantial body
> of software. The options with the capability and capacity would cost
> more than a Mac Mini over a few months.
>
> For example, for macincloud we would need the "Dedicated Server" plan
> ($49+) with added "Optional Build Server Plan". Even their maximum
> upgrade of 250 GB would not be enough for AOO building.
>
> The conclusion I reached was that if I were going to do any Mac
> development it would take less of my time and energy to buy one of the
> more powerful Macs and manage it directly.
>
>
>
>
> On 9/2/2016 9:53 AM, Phillip Rhodes wrote:
>
>> Sadly, I don't own a Mac.  I use one at work, but all of my personal
>> hardware
>> is PC based, running Linux.
>>
>> I wonder if it would work to use something like this:
>>
>> http://www.macincloud.com/
>>
>> Anybody have any experience with something like that?
>>
>>
>> Phil
>>
>>
>> This message optimized for indexing by NSA PRISM
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 2, 2016 at 12:20 PM, toki  wrote:
>>
>> On 02/09/2016 14:59, Phillip Rhodes wrote:
>>>
>>> What is the most important thing/things we could be working on?

>>>
>>> On your own hardware:
>>>
>>> Repeat:
>>>Build a Mac OS X Binary;
>>>Fix the error messages you get;
>>>Write notes about what you did;
>>>Test the program functionality;
>>> Until it builds properly and all functions work as expected;
>>>
>>> Then submit the patches and notes your you wrote to the SVN.
>>>
>>> How do we counter the FUD that is already being promulgated in

>>> response to the "retirement" discussion?
>>>
>>> At this stage, the only thing that might be adequate, is a release
>>> before the end of the weekend, followed up by a release before New Years.
>>>
>>> jonathon
>>>
>>> -
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
>
>

Re: What would OpenOffice NON-retirement involve?

[Patricia Shanahan]

I looked at some of those services a few weeks ago. For the ones I
found, the relatively inexpensive options did not have the capability of
building software, let alone the capacity for build a substantial body
of software. The options with the capability and capacity would cost
more than a Mac Mini over a few months.

For example, for macincloud we would need the "Dedicated Server" plan
($49+) with added "Optional Build Server Plan". Even their maximum
upgrade of 250 GB would not be enough for AOO building.

The conclusion I reached was that if I were going to do any Mac
development it would take less of my time and energy to buy one of the
more powerful Macs and manage it directly.



On 9/2/2016 9:53 AM, Phillip Rhodes wrote:

Sadly, I don't own a Mac.  I use one at work, but all of my personal
hardware
is PC based, running Linux.

I wonder if it would work to use something like this:

http://www.macincloud.com/

Anybody have any experience with something like that?


Phil


This message optimized for indexing by NSA PRISM

On Fri, Sep 2, 2016 at 12:20 PM, toki  wrote:


On 02/09/2016 14:59, Phillip Rhodes wrote:


What is the most important thing/things we could be working on?


On your own hardware:

Repeat:
   Build a Mac OS X Binary;
   Fix the error messages you get;
   Write notes about what you did;
   Test the program functionality;
Until it builds properly and all functions work as expected;

Then submit the patches and notes your you wrote to the SVN.


How do we counter the FUD that is already being promulgated in

response to the "retirement" discussion?

At this stage, the only thing that might be adequate, is a release
before the end of the weekend, followed up by a release before New Years.

jonathon

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Re: What would OpenOffice NON-retirement involve?

[Phillip Rhodes]

Sadly, I don't own a Mac.  I use one at work, but all of my personal
hardware
is PC based, running Linux.

I wonder if it would work to use something like this:

http://www.macincloud.com/

Anybody have any experience with something like that?


Phil


This message optimized for indexing by NSA PRISM

On Fri, Sep 2, 2016 at 12:20 PM, toki  wrote:

> On 02/09/2016 14:59, Phillip Rhodes wrote:
>
> > What is the most important thing/things we could be working on?
>
> On your own hardware:
>
> Repeat:
>Build a Mac OS X Binary;
>Fix the error messages you get;
>Write notes about what you did;
>Test the program functionality;
> Until it builds properly and all functions work as expected;
>
> Then submit the patches and notes your you wrote to the SVN.
>
> > How do we counter the FUD that is already being promulgated in
> response to the "retirement" discussion?
>
> At this stage, the only thing that might be adequate, is a release
> before the end of the weekend, followed up by a release before New Years.
>
> jonathon
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
>
>

Re: [DISCUSS] What Would OpenOffice Retirement Involve? (long)

[Dave Fisher]

Hi Jim,

I seem to recall that you made an offer to help with Mac builds. I know you 
helped during incubation. Is your offer still valid?

Regards,
Dave

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 2, 2016, at 6:59 AM, Jim Jagielski  wrote:
> 
> 
>>> On Sep 2, 2016, at 9:48 AM, Jörg Schmidt  wrote:
>>> 
>>> From: Dr. Michael Stehmann [mailto:anw...@rechtsanwalt-stehmann.de]
>> 
>>> Patricia, we are still discussing. We are balancing reasons, 
>>> advantages
>>> and disadvantages, for different solutions. There is no decision made.
>>> 
>>> And more and more I believe, it was a good idea to start that 
>>> discussion
>>> on a public list. So everything is transparent.
>>> 
>>> I like the debian Social Contract and point 3 is:
>>> 
>>> "We will not hide problems"
>> 
>> This is a reasonable approach for a project which is surrounded by friends. 
>> 
>> It is not necessarily a good concept for a project that has been cleaved by 
>> third
>> parties and whose aim is to destroy it. When the TDF had only had the 
>> intention to
>> make OpenOffice independent of Oracle, they would never have attacked AOO.
> 
> sorry, but I can't agree with that.
> 
> Will self-serving trolls contort what we say here to promote their
> own agendas? Sure. What we want is the *truth* to be out there,
> so when these trolls spew their FUD, the reality of the situation
> is there for others to read, and understand, and grok.
> 
> At the very least, if what you say is true, we can claim the
> high-ground. We should strive for that no matter what.
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org
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> 


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Re: What would OpenOffice NON-retirement involve?

[Pedro Giffuni]

Hello;

At this time I am unsure what the Board wants from the project. They 
probably want to see more activity and may recur to artificial numbers 
like number of commits, number of active developers, or releases.


I very much doubt actions from the Board will solve anything, it's the 
PMC and the developers that do the effective changes in a project.


If we make a release in the following weeks we may take the Board from 
our backs and get time to work on the things that matter.


I have to say that thanks to the brave work of Damjan the project is a
LOT more sustainable than some months ago. We have a testsuite back and
the build environment has improved substantially. Also Don has been 
doing some important cleanups and updates.


Still the problems are:

- Developers: the issue is not actually the number of them but the 
know-how that AOO requires. The majority of the experienced developers

are either still at IBM but with a lot of unrelated work, or have
gravitated slowly to LibreOffice (as in paid to do so).

- A Win64 port: 80% of our users are Windows users.

- The code is just ugly .. really, and that is true for LibreOffice as well.

There are plans (rewrite a lot in Java, more use of APR), but we just
have to be realistic and understand that big changes in the codebase
are not going to happen soon. AOO 5.0 may take at least two years.

Pedro.

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Re: What would OpenOffice NON-retirement involve?

[Dave Fisher]

Really? Substantial work is done on list to improve the build process for 
Windows and you don't think about mentioning that?

Someone who has a Mac and time could help with  that build!

Regards,
Dave

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 2, 2016, at 9:05 AM, Dennis E. Hamilton  
> wrote:
> 
> We all have these questions, Phil.  What we are awaiting is someone to 
> provide an actionable answer.
> 
> There is nothing to do about the FUD (as is already remarked elsewhere on the 
> What would ... thread).  That's a waste of energy.  What we need is energy 
> put into having an AOO that serves its community.
> 
> Patricia and Marcus have already taken some steps and there is a call for 
> volunteers on the download page.  
> 
> We need people to step up.  The folks we have are already spinning more 
> plates than they have arms and legs.
> 
> - Dennis
> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Phillip Rhodes [mailto:motley.crue@gmail.com]
>> Sent: Friday, September 2, 2016 08:00
>> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
>> Subject: What would OpenOffice NON-retirement involve?
>> 
>> OK, counter-point to the other thread... let's talk specifically about
>> what
>> needs to happen next, given that some (plenty|most|all|???) of us want
>> this
>> project to
>> continue moving forward.
>> 
>> What has to happen next?  What is the most important thing/things we
>> could
>> be
>> working on?  What could I do *right now* to help move things in a
>> positive
>> direction?
>> 
>> How can we attract more developers?  How do we counter the FUD that is
>> already being promulgated in response to the "retirement" discussion?
>> etc...
>> 
>> 
>> Phil
>> ~~~
>> This message optimized for indexing by NSA PRISM
> 
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
> 


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Re: What would OpenOffice NON-retirement involve?

[Patricia Shanahan]

On 9/2/2016 7:59 AM, Phillip Rhodes wrote:

OK, counter-point to the other thread... let's talk specifically about what
needs to happen next, given that some (plenty|most|all|???) of us want this
project to
continue moving forward.

What has to happen next?  What is the most important thing/things we could
be
working on?  What could I do *right now* to help move things in a positive
direction?

How can we attract more developers?  How do we counter the FUD that is
already being promulgated in response to the "retirement" discussion?
 etc...


The "other thread" is actually liberating. Let's go public with the risk 
that AOO will be shut down, despite the wishes and best efforts of its 
remaining developers.


I would like to see every possible medium used to present one message: 
"AOO is at serious risk of dying, unless we get more volunteer 
developers, especially C++ programmers."


I know we need other skills as well, but I don't want to dilute or 
complicate that message.


I would like a special mailing list recruitm...@openoffice.apache.org, 
just for signing up and organizing new developers. No need for them to 
start with dev@, especially the less experienced developers. Just send 
an e-mail to recruitment@


The message should go out every way it can:

us...@openoffice.apache.org
OpenOffice forums
Press release
memb...@apache.org
d...@community.apache.org

We should also strengthen the current download page appeal for 
developers to state the risk of shut down.



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Re: What would OpenOffice NON-retirement involve?

[toki]

On 02/09/2016 14:59, Phillip Rhodes wrote:

> What is the most important thing/things we could be working on?  

On your own hardware:

Repeat:
   Build a Mac OS X Binary;
   Fix the error messages you get;
   Write notes about what you did;
   Test the program functionality;
Until it builds properly and all functions work as expected;

Then submit the patches and notes your you wrote to the SVN.

> How do we counter the FUD that is already being promulgated in
response to the "retirement" discussion?

At this stage, the only thing that might be adequate, is a release
before the end of the weekend, followed up by a release before New Years.

jonathon

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RE: [DISCUSS] What Would OpenOffice Retirement Involve? (long)

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

> -Original Message-
> From: Dennis E. Hamilton [mailto:dennis.hamil...@acm.org]
> Sent: Thursday, September 1, 2016 22:08
> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
> Subject: RE: [DISCUSS] What Would OpenOffice Retirement Involve? (long)
> 
> 
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Phillip Rhodes [mailto:motley.crue@gmail.com]
> > Sent: Thursday, September 1, 2016 21:23
> > To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
> > Cc: priv...@openoffice.apache.org
> > Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] What Would OpenOffice Retirement Involve?
> (long)
> >
> > > (3) I think that working towards being able to release rather than
> > patch
> > > as Patricia has suggested is our best way to solve the security
> issue.
> > The
> > > quick patch is not much faster and has been proven to be more of a
> > > challenge then kick starting the broken build process.
> > >
> >
> >
> > Forgive me for being a little behind.  What is broken in the build
> > process?
> > Technical problem, or process issue, or other or what?
[orcmid] 

I should add that the situation recounted below was not the first time this 
happened.

Also, I gave the wrong date for when the CVE-2016-1513 defect was reported to 
us.  It was 2015-10-20, not 2016 of course.

Now, if you look at CVE-2015-1774, 
, you'll see that 
the disclosure and related advisory was made on 2015-04-27 (that was Version 
1.0).  We did not have a fix, we had only the workaround.  This disclosure 
happened because the defect applied in the original openoffice.org code base 
and applied to other products that did have a fix.  The remedy, for AOO, was to 
remove the offending library and its use from 4.1.2 on 2015-10-28.

Furthermore, 4.1.2 was itself an emergency release because of the imminent 
disclosure of the other four CVEs fixed in that release and listed on 
.  The peer distributions 
actually held up their issuance of security updates and disclosure so that AOO 
could catch up with 4.1.2.  If you look at the credits of those four CVEs, 
you'll see that the [OfficeSecurity] list members were instrumental in creating 
fixes that AOO also used.  Our problem was how much longer it took to produce 
the emergency release of 4.1.2 (and also desist from putting in other pent-up 
fixes to do so).

That was a nail-biter.  It was clear that the [Officesecurity] folk had lost 
patience with AOO as a hold-up of rapid repair of common defects in our 
products.  This was also stated very clearly at the AOO PMC.  (The AOO Security 
team can do much to analyze reported defects and figure out fixes, but it 
cannot do releases.  The PMC has to act on that.)

There was some unhappiness about forcing 4.1.2 out the door.  Some preferred 
going straight to 4.2.0 which, with UI and localization changes, would take 
longer and have increased regression risk.  That tension persists.

And here we are.

  2015-10-28 4.1.2
  2014-08-21 4.1.1
  2014-04-29 4.1
  2013-10-01 4.0.1
  2013-07-17 4
  2013-01-30 3.4.1 refresh (8 more languages)
  2012-08-21 3.4.1 incubating
  2012-05-08 3.4   incubating

> >
> [orcmid]
> 
> This is off-topic for this thread, but it may be helpful in illustrating
> why the Board wants to know what the project's considerations are with
> respect to retirement and in particular, with regard to avoiding the
> situation I will now recount.
> 
> The remark about a patch has to do with CVE-2016-1513, with our advisory
> at
> .
> 
> The vulnerability, and a proof of concept were reported to the project
> on 2016-10-20 as Apache OpenOffice 4.1.2 was going out the door.
> 
> We had figured out the source-code fix in March.
> 
> On June 7, the reporter was concerned about sitting on the disclosure
> any longer and gave us a June deadline, proposing to disclose even
> though we had not committed to an AOO update.  We were sitting on the
> fix because we didn't want to give anyone ideas when they saw it applied
> to the source code unless there was a release in the works.
> 
> We negotiated a disclosure extension to July 21.  Part of that agreement
> was our working to create a hotfix instead of attempting to work up a
> full maintenance release (e.g., a 4.1.3).  On July 21 we issued an
> advisory that disclosed existence of the vulnerability without offering
> any repaired software.
> 
> We had the corrected shared library at the time of disclosure, but had
> not tested much for possible regressions with it.  Also, instructions
> needed to be written.  General Availability of the Hotfix, 4.1.2-patch1,
> was on August 30, after more testing, QA of the instructions and the
> fix, and adding a couple of localizations.  The QA period did turn up a
> couple of glitches and improvements to the instructions and also
> included scripts to simplify the task for Windows users.
> 
> There are two prospects for this year: a 4.1.3 maintenance release 

RE: What would OpenOffice NON-retirement involve?

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

We all have these questions, Phil.  What we are awaiting is someone to provide 
an actionable answer.

There is nothing to do about the FUD (as is already remarked elsewhere on the 
What would ... thread).  That's a waste of energy.  What we need is energy put 
into having an AOO that serves its community.

Patricia and Marcus have already taken some steps and there is a call for 
volunteers on the download page.  

We need people to step up.  The folks we have are already spinning more plates 
than they have arms and legs.

 - Dennis

> -Original Message-
> From: Phillip Rhodes [mailto:motley.crue@gmail.com]
> Sent: Friday, September 2, 2016 08:00
> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
> Subject: What would OpenOffice NON-retirement involve?
> 
> OK, counter-point to the other thread... let's talk specifically about
> what
> needs to happen next, given that some (plenty|most|all|???) of us want
> this
> project to
> continue moving forward.
> 
> What has to happen next?  What is the most important thing/things we
> could
> be
> working on?  What could I do *right now* to help move things in a
> positive
> direction?
> 
> How can we attract more developers?  How do we counter the FUD that is
> already being promulgated in response to the "retirement" discussion?
>  etc...
> 
> 
> Phil
> ~~~
> This message optimized for indexing by NSA PRISM


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RE: Release Manager for 4.2.0?

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

I don't have a good place to put this, and 4.2.0 may not be the way to consider 
it, if we are also counting on an early (this year) 4.2.0 to also provide 
important maintenance fixes and any security catch-ups too.

One major change that the TDF made to LibreOffice is very important.  Instead 
of producing complete binary sets (Windows x86, MacOSX, Linux32, and Linux64) 
for *each* localization, LibreOffice provides one complete set for *all* 
localizations.  The off-line Help is only in English, but localized off-line 
Helps can be obtained as small downloads.  The on-line helps reached by default 
are localized.

You can imagine how this simplifies deployment, including QA and binding votes. 
 They have also been using Windows .msi binaries, with Microsoft's signing 
method, for some time.

Somehow, it would be good to have a checklist of the kinds of things that we 
would like to try and confirm using rebuilds of a stable version, not just for 
emergency releases.  There are a number of deployment improvements that could 
be tested and QA'd that way without worrying about regressions inside of a 
feature release.

Just a thought.

 - Dennis

> -Original Message-
> From: Patricia Shanahan [mailto:p...@acm.org]
> Sent: Friday, August 19, 2016 11:30
> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Release Manager for 4.2.0?
> 
> 
> 
> On 8/19/2016 10:41 AM, Kay sch...@apache.org wrote:
> >
> > On 01/28/2016 04:06 PM, Andrea Pescetti wrote:
> >> As I wrote a few day ago, in theory it would be good to release
> >> OpenOffice 4.2.0 in February. If it happens a bit later it wouldn't
> be a
> >> big issue, but I believe that, in the constant balance between
> periods
> >> where we are focused on talks (internal to OpenOffice and with the
> >> enlarged community) and periods where we are more focused on the
> >> OpenOffice product, it's time to start working again towards a
> release.
> >>
> >> For 4.2.0 we need a Release Manager. I would prefer NOT to be the
> >> Release Manager for 4.2.0 since I'm finding that in this period I can
> >> help more productively with tasks that do not require constant
> >> interaction than with tasks that require a constant monitoring of
> >> project channels.
> >>
> >> I am surely available to have a significant role in the 4.2.0
> release,
> >> especially with getting localization working again (actually, this
> mail
> >> also serves as announcement that I am going to ask for higher
> privileges
> >> on the Pootle server in order to check the translation workflow); but
> if
> >> someone else steps in as a Release Manager we could deliver earlier.
> >>
> >> So if anyone is interested feel free to discuss this on list, or to
> >> contact me off-list if you prefer, or to discuss in person at FOSDEM
> >> next weekend!
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >>   Andrea.
> >>
> >
> > Hi all--
> >
> > I am volunteering to be release manager for 4.2.0.  I have been
> involved
> > in all the AOO releases since 3.40, and I'm familiar with the process.
> > Like all of us involved with the project, I am a volunteer. Due to
> this,
> > I can not provide an expected release date. Releases, as we know are
> > community efforts. We'll release when we feel 4.2.0 is ready.
> >
> > So, I will let this offer stand the weekend just in case someone else
> > feels they'd LOVE to do this. If we don't have any objections to my
> > being the next release manager over the next 72 hours, we can get
> > started next week ironing out what needs to be done. We will need LOTS
> > of help!
> 
> This looks ideal to me. I would like to learn the release processes, and
> try to document them as completely as possible. I would prefer to learn
> by watching and helping someone who already knows how it is done, than
> by jumping in the deep end and splashing about.
> 
> I have an agenda of constructing an emergency release procedure but it
> will be easier if I can first see how the normal process goes.
> 
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RE: [DISCUSS] What Would OpenOffice Retirement Involve? (long)

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

Also, .

The article itself is very straightforward.  The comments wander around all 
over the place with the usual pontifications about corporate influence, etc.

An important point is made, by the way, over how it is that LibreOffice 
deployment is far easier than that for AOO, and also much improved.

 - Dennios

> -Original Message-
> From: RA Stehmann [mailto:anw...@rechtsanwalt-stehmann.de]
> Sent: Friday, September 2, 2016 04:01
> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
> Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] What Would OpenOffice Retirement Involve? (long)
> 
> Hello,
> 
> our discussion became public:
> 
> http://www.linux-magazin.de/content/view/full/106599
> 
> This shows a public interest. So "going public" seems not to difficult.
> 
> Kind regards
> Michael
> 
> 



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What would OpenOffice NON-retirement involve?

[Phillip Rhodes]

OK, counter-point to the other thread... let's talk specifically about what
needs to happen next, given that some (plenty|most|all|???) of us want this
project to
continue moving forward.

What has to happen next?  What is the most important thing/things we could
be
working on?  What could I do *right now* to help move things in a positive
direction?

How can we attract more developers?  How do we counter the FUD that is
already being promulgated in response to the "retirement" discussion?
 etc...


Phil
~~~
This message optimized for indexing by NSA PRISM

Re: Resigning from Apache OpenOffice

[Roberto Galoppini]

On Sep 2, 2016 4:03 PM, "Andrea Pescetti"  wrote:
>
> Kay Schenk wrote:
>>
>> I'm resigning from Apache OpenOffice.
>
>
> Seeing your enthusiasm until yesterday, I think I can easily guess the
reason. Rest assured, I am feeling bullied too.
>
> So, what can we, the people who actively work (as volunteers) on
OpenOffice, and who plan releases, and who have committed code until this
very day, do? Should we all reply and leave?

Kay I do know it's hard to get slapped in the face in spite of the good
work, but it's time to stay united and stand.

Please ignore the fuss, your buddies here are with you to keep the ball
rolling, against all odds.

Think it again, PLEASE.

Roberto

> I prefer that we gather support for continuing what we were doing (i.e.,
just plan the next release), maybe getting some excuses from the
well-meaning people who did not want to start a thread with the idea of
destroying a honorable project.
>
> I hope you will reconsider, or at least take the necessary time to see
what people are doing. I'm very disappointed by today's discussions. I'll
stand by for the time being. And I hope all the other "active" people share
this vision and are prepared to offer an alternative to retirement in the
form of a release.
>
> Regards,
>   Andrea.
>
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>

Re: Resigning from Apache OpenOffice

[Andrea Pescetti]

Kay Schenk wrote:

I'm resigning from Apache OpenOffice.


Seeing your enthusiasm until yesterday, I think I can easily guess the 
reason. Rest assured, I am feeling bullied too.


So, what can we, the people who actively work (as volunteers) on 
OpenOffice, and who plan releases, and who have committed code until 
this very day, do? Should we all reply and leave?


I prefer that we gather support for continuing what we were doing (i.e., 
just plan the next release), maybe getting some excuses from the 
well-meaning people who did not want to start a thread with the idea of 
destroying a honorable project.


I hope you will reconsider, or at least take the necessary time to see 
what people are doing. I'm very disappointed by today's discussions. 
I'll stand by for the time being. And I hope all the other "active" 
people share this vision and are prepared to offer an alternative to 
retirement in the form of a release.


Regards,
  Andrea.

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Re: Resigning from Apache OpenOffice

[RA Stehmann]

Am 02.09.2016 um 15:43 schrieb Kay Schenk:
> I'm resigning from Apache OpenOffice. I've been an unpaid volunteer with
> OpenOffice.org and Apache OpenOffice since April, 2001.  At this point, I'm
> thinking it's time to move on.
> .
> 
Thank you very much for your great work. And good luck for the future.

With a little tear in my eye

Michael




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Re: [DISCUSS] What Would OpenOffice Retirement Involve? (long)

[Jim Jagielski]

> On Sep 2, 2016, at 9:48 AM, Jörg Schmidt  wrote:
> 
>> From: Dr. Michael Stehmann [mailto:anw...@rechtsanwalt-stehmann.de] 
> 
>> Patricia, we are still discussing. We are balancing reasons, 
>> advantages
>> and disadvantages, for different solutions. There is no decision made.
>> 
>> And more and more I believe, it was a good idea to start that 
>> discussion
>> on a public list. So everything is transparent.
>> 
>> I like the debian Social Contract and point 3 is:
>> 
>> "We will not hide problems"
> 
> This is a reasonable approach for a project which is surrounded by friends. 
> 
> It is not necessarily a good concept for a project that has been cleaved by 
> third
> parties and whose aim is to destroy it. When the TDF had only had the 
> intention to
> make OpenOffice independent of Oracle, they would never have attacked AOO.
> 
> 

sorry, but I can't agree with that.

Will self-serving trolls contort what we say here to promote their
own agendas? Sure. What we want is the *truth* to be out there,
so when these trolls spew their FUD, the reality of the situation
is there for others to read, and understand, and grok.

At the very least, if what you say is true, we can claim the
high-ground. We should strive for that no matter what.
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Re: [DISCUSS] What Would OpenOffice Retirement Involve? (long)

[Jörg Schmidt]

> From: Roberto Galoppini [mailto:roberto.galopp...@gmail.com] 

> We are on the same page here, and if security issues (real 
> ones) would be
> left uncovered it would be fine if you and/or the board will step in.
> 
> In the meanwhile PLEASE let us work, and let's see if we can 
> keep changing
> in the right direction.

+1, absolute consent from me. I regret that I am not a developer, and thereby 
can not help.


I assure the community that I will continue my work for OpenOffice (macro 
programming and end-user support)



Greetings,
Jörg



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Re: [DISCUSS] What Would OpenOffice Retirement Involve? (long)

[Jim Jagielski]

This whole discussion is a chance to "prove me wrong" (as someone
"out of touch") as well as to prove to the entire OO community
what those "positive things" are.

I am glad that the status-quo of today != the status-quo as of
(today - 3weeksAgo).

I am reminded of this scene from Pulp Fiction (apologies for
the language: I didn't write this. Blame "edgy" QT):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NlrgjgOHrw


> On Sep 2, 2016, at 9:43 AM, Roberto Galoppini  
> wrote:
> 
> On Sep 2, 2016 3:29 PM, "Jim Jagielski"  wrote:
>> 
>> Yes, I would assume that many existing people would leave.
>> 
>> But, as I mentioned, I would assume (hope) that many people
>> would join, and many of those would be from others in the
>> entire OO eco-system.
>> 
>> Your reply seems to suggest that with the current status of AOO,
>> maintaining an end-user focus is possible. Current evidence,
>> unfortunately, makes that somewhat questionable.
> 
> Jim if you're paying attention, and I say if just because I know you have
> been out of touch recently, you can't have missed that a number of positive
> things HAPPENED here. So if you see people having confidence maybe it would
> be good to think twice and wonder if we might have reasons to think
> otherwise.
> 
>> The current status-quo is untenable and unacceptable. Change
>> needs to happen. I suggested one route, nothing more, nothing
>> less.
> 
> We are on the same page here, and if security issues (real ones) would be
> left uncovered it would be fine if you and/or the board will step in.
> 
> In the meanwhile PLEASE let us work, and let's see if we can keep changing
> in the right direction.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Roberto
> 
>> 
>>> On Sep 2, 2016, at 8:52 AM, RA Stehmann 
> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Am 02.09.2016 um 14:14 schrieb Jim Jagielski:
>>> 
 
 What is obvious is that the AOO project cannot support, at the present
 time, being an end-user focused effort. I would suggest we focus on not
 being one, but instead being a framework or library that can be
> consumed
 by actual end-user implementations.
 
>>> 
>>> If AOO is not an end-user focused project a lot of people will leave
>>> this community because they will be useless. People who are doing
>>> end-user support, who are doing end-user documentation and are doing
>>> what we call "marketing" etc.
>>> 
>>> Also people, who build binaries are obsolet. Only coders will be needed
>>> and I don't know, whether all remained will stay under that conditions.
>>> 
>>> I don't see a great difference between that way and a retirement.
>>> 
>>> The first way might be the "Apache way", but it is definitely not the
>>> way for and of the OpenOffice community.
>>> 
>>> Just my 2 cents.
>>> 
>>> Kind regards
>>> Michael
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> 


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Re: [DISCUSS] What Would OpenOffice Retirement Involve? (long)

[Jörg Schmidt]

> From: Dr. Michael Stehmann [mailto:anw...@rechtsanwalt-stehmann.de] 

> Patricia, we are still discussing. We are balancing reasons, 
> advantages
> and disadvantages, for different solutions. There is no decision made.
> 
> And more and more I believe, it was a good idea to start that 
> discussion
> on a public list. So everything is transparent.
> 
> I like the debian Social Contract and point 3 is:
> 
> "We will not hide problems"

This is a reasonable approach for a project which is surrounded by friends. 

It is not necessarily a good concept for a project that has been cleaved by 
third
parties and whose aim is to destroy it. When the TDF had only had the intention 
to
make OpenOffice independent of Oracle, they would never have attacked AOO.


Greetings,
Jörg


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Re: [DISCUSS] What Would OpenOffice Retirement Involve? (long)

[Roberto Galoppini]

On Sep 2, 2016 3:29 PM, "Jim Jagielski"  wrote:
>
> Yes, I would assume that many existing people would leave.
>
> But, as I mentioned, I would assume (hope) that many people
> would join, and many of those would be from others in the
> entire OO eco-system.
>
> Your reply seems to suggest that with the current status of AOO,
> maintaining an end-user focus is possible. Current evidence,
> unfortunately, makes that somewhat questionable.

Jim if you're paying attention, and I say if just because I know you have
been out of touch recently, you can't have missed that a number of positive
things HAPPENED here. So if you see people having confidence maybe it would
be good to think twice and wonder if we might have reasons to think
otherwise.

> The current status-quo is untenable and unacceptable. Change
> needs to happen. I suggested one route, nothing more, nothing
> less.

We are on the same page here, and if security issues (real ones) would be
left uncovered it would be fine if you and/or the board will step in.

In the meanwhile PLEASE let us work, and let's see if we can keep changing
in the right direction.

Thanks,

Roberto

>
> > On Sep 2, 2016, at 8:52 AM, RA Stehmann 
wrote:
> >
> > Am 02.09.2016 um 14:14 schrieb Jim Jagielski:
> >
> >>
> >> What is obvious is that the AOO project cannot support, at the present
> >> time, being an end-user focused effort. I would suggest we focus on not
> >> being one, but instead being a framework or library that can be
consumed
> >> by actual end-user implementations.
> >>
> >
> > If AOO is not an end-user focused project a lot of people will leave
> > this community because they will be useless. People who are doing
> > end-user support, who are doing end-user documentation and are doing
> > what we call "marketing" etc.
> >
> > Also people, who build binaries are obsolet. Only coders will be needed
> > and I don't know, whether all remained will stay under that conditions.
> >
> > I don't see a great difference between that way and a retirement.
> >
> > The first way might be the "Apache way", but it is definitely not the
> > way for and of the OpenOffice community.
> >
> > Just my 2 cents.
> >
> > Kind regards
> > Michael
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

Resigning from Apache OpenOffice

[Kay Schenk]

I'm resigning from Apache OpenOffice. I've been an unpaid volunteer with
OpenOffice.org and Apache OpenOffice since April, 2001.  At this point, I'm
thinking it's time to move on.

A big THANK YOU to all the developers that made OpenOffice the outstanding
open source product it is today.  THANK YOU to all the community members
who contributed tirelessly to the  ancillary  functions of both these
projects. And finally, special thanks to the infrastructure team at the
Apache Software Foundation for the remarkable job they did for Apache
OpenOffice and continue to do.

Best wishes to all of you, and may the road ahead for OpenOffice be smooth.

I'm assuming that my karma to the following areas will be removed later
today: committer rights to the source svn repository; rights to the PMC and
security lists and repositories.

-- 
--
Kay Schenk
Apache OpenOffice

"Things work out best for those who make
 the best of the way things work out."
   -- John Wooden

Re: [DISCUSS] What Would OpenOffice Retirement Involve? (long)

[Dr. Michael Stehmann]

Am 02.09.2016 um 15:08 schrieb Patricia Shanahan:

> 
> This discussion has a serious self fulfilling prophecy downside. The
> less ASF's commitment to AOO, the less my commitment is. I had been
> thinking of buying a Mac and learning to do builds on it. That is an
> investment of time, energy, and a small amount of money. Why do it, if
> AOO is just going to get shut down anyway?

Patricia, we are still discussing. We are balancing reasons, advantages
and disadvantages, for different solutions. There is no decision made.

And more and more I believe, it was a good idea to start that discussion
on a public list. So everything is transparent.

I like the debian Social Contract and point 3 is:

"We will not hide problems"

Kind regards
Michael






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Re: [DISCUSS] What Would OpenOffice Retirement Involve? (long)

[Jim Jagielski]

BTW, can we drop private@ on this and simply continue the
discussion on dev@?

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Re: [DISCUSS] What Would OpenOffice Retirement Involve? (long)

[Jim Jagielski]

Yes, I would assume that many existing people would leave.

But, as I mentioned, I would assume (hope) that many people
would join, and many of those would be from others in the
entire OO eco-system.

Your reply seems to suggest that with the current status of AOO,
maintaining an end-user focus is possible. Current evidence,
unfortunately, makes that somewhat questionable.

The current status-quo is untenable and unacceptable. Change
needs to happen. I suggested one route, nothing more, nothing
less.

> On Sep 2, 2016, at 8:52 AM, RA Stehmann  
> wrote:
> 
> Am 02.09.2016 um 14:14 schrieb Jim Jagielski:
> 
>> 
>> What is obvious is that the AOO project cannot support, at the present
>> time, being an end-user focused effort. I would suggest we focus on not
>> being one, but instead being a framework or library that can be consumed
>> by actual end-user implementations.
>> 
> 
> If AOO is not an end-user focused project a lot of people will leave
> this community because they will be useless. People who are doing
> end-user support, who are doing end-user documentation and are doing
> what we call "marketing" etc.
> 
> Also people, who build binaries are obsolet. Only coders will be needed
> and I don't know, whether all remained will stay under that conditions.
> 
> I don't see a great difference between that way and a retirement.
> 
> The first way might be the "Apache way", but it is definitely not the
> way for and of the OpenOffice community.
> 
> Just my 2 cents.
> 
> Kind regards
> Michael
> 
> 
> 
> 


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Re: [DISCUSS] What Would OpenOffice Retirement Involve? (long)

[Patricia Shanahan]

On 9/2/2016 5:52 AM, RA Stehmann wrote:

Am 02.09.2016 um 14:14 schrieb Jim Jagielski:



What is obvious is that the AOO project cannot support, at the present
time, being an end-user focused effort. I would suggest we focus on not
being one, but instead being a framework or library that can be consumed
by actual end-user implementations.



If AOO is not an end-user focused project a lot of people will leave
this community because they will be useless. People who are doing
end-user support, who are doing end-user documentation and are doing
what we call "marketing" etc.

Also people, who build binaries are obsolet. Only coders will be needed
and I don't know, whether all remained will stay under that conditions.


I certainly won't stay. I am interested in keeping the end user 
application viable. The library/framework idea does not interest me at all.


This discussion has a serious self fulfilling prophecy downside. The 
less ASF's commitment to AOO, the less my commitment is. I had been 
thinking of buying a Mac and learning to do builds on it. That is an 
investment of time, energy, and a small amount of money. Why do it, if 
AOO is just going to get shut down anyway?


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Re: [DISCUSS] What Would OpenOffice Retirement Involve? (long)

[Jorg Schmidt]

> From: Jim Jagielski [mailto:j...@jagunet.com] 

> Secondly, as alluded to above, we should prepare ourselves 
> for the FUD,
> the "AOO is dead" victory chants, the numerous anti-AOO and 
> anti-Apache
> spewings, etc... There are some who will use this as a self-serving
> soapboxing opportunity, and warp the facts into some Bizarro alternate
> universe history. We should be there to set the facts straight but
> also resign ourselves to the fact that their voices will 
> likely be louder
> than ours.

You're absolutely right.


> Secondly, part and parcel with this "pivot" is that we rename 
> the project
> to something more accurate to what our new function would be 
> and we use
> the AOO landing page to reference and redirect to the various OO
> implementations out there. In fact, I would even suggest us 
> considering
> going further and redirecting AOO traffic to LO, so that 
> people considering
> "OpenOffice" get routed to the LO site (either automatically 
> or via some
> click/OK interface).

-1

OpenOffice is not LibreOffice! 

never we forget how members of OpenOffice (for example, Rob Weir) were insulted 
by
TDF representatives.



Greetings,
Jorg


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Re: [DISCUSS] What Would OpenOffice Retirement Involve? (long)

[Jim Jagielski]

Dennis, thanks for opening up this conversation.

As noted over the last few months, it has become obvious to the
board that AOO has not been a healthy project for some time.
Again, there are many, many reasons for this, and it doesn't
help to go into them here and now. The simple fact is that we are at
this point now, so what should be done?

First of all, let's address the elephant in the room: Some people
(mostly naysayers and people who love stirring up sh*t) will say that
"Apache had this coming" or that we were "stupid or arrogant" in
taking on this challenge. Doing so simply shows their own ignorance,
but it still stings I'm sure. Even if AOO had not done 1 single release,
the donation of the codebase *and the relicensing of said codebase to
the ALv2* has been a *significant* plus to the open office ecosystem.
This has allowed the other players in the game to have true IP
provenance, as well as the ability to relicense things, as LO did
almost immediately.

This is something MAJOR that many people will forget and ignore, but it
is something we should be proud of. As things proceed, and the haters
start (continue) hating, these are things we should remind ourselves
of.

Secondly, as alluded to above, we should prepare ourselves for the FUD,
the "AOO is dead" victory chants, the numerous anti-AOO and anti-Apache
spewings, etc... There are some who will use this as a self-serving
soapboxing opportunity, and warp the facts into some Bizarro alternate
universe history. We should be there to set the facts straight but
also resign ourselves to the fact that their voices will likely be louder
than ours.

Now, with that out of the way, here are my thoughts on retirement. I
have previously shared these but am doing so again.

What is obvious is that the AOO project cannot support, at the present
time, being an end-user focused effort. I would suggest we focus on not
being one, but instead being a framework or library that can be consumed
by actual end-user implementations.

This is similar to the initial thoughts behind our acceptance of AOO in
the 1st place: that AOO would form the basis/foundation/core-implementations
and others would build upon those to create more specialized and enhanced
OpenOffice alternatives; and since it was a core, a common shared core,
the expectation was that these alternatives would work together, in true
FOSS fashion, and AOO would see code and patches from these alternatives
in improving this core. As we all know, this did not happen, and instead
of sharing, these alternatives never contributed back.

So with all that being said, you may be asking, "Jim, if they didn't
contribute then why would the contribute now?". Let me answer that.

First of all, I think they saw us as competitors, rather than co-
operators. Some of this was due to bad-blood, and some of it was due
to stupid posturing on both sides. But the main reason why, imo, was
because we were also end-user. End users needed to make a *choice* between
AOO and SomethingElse. By no longer being an end-user application,
that goes away.

Secondly, part and parcel with this "pivot" is that we rename the project
to something more accurate to what our new function would be and we use
the AOO landing page to reference and redirect to the various OO
implementations out there. In fact, I would even suggest us considering
going further and redirecting AOO traffic to LO, so that people considering
"OpenOffice" get routed to the LO site (either automatically or via some
click/OK interface).

With these 2 changes, as obvious olive branches, I think we will
see all players in the OO development eco-system be willing contributors
to the new project. And this will give the new project a new lease
on life.

Cheers!


> On Sep 1, 2016, at 7:37 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton  wrote:
> 
> Here is what a careful retirement of Apache OpenOffice could look like.
> 
>  A. PERSPECTIVE
>  B. WHAT RETIREMENT COULD LOOK LIKE
> 1. Code Base
> 2. Downloads
> 3. Development Support
> 4. Public-Project Community Interfaces
> 5. Social Media Presence
> 6. Project Management Committee
> 7. Branding
> 
> A. PERSPECTIVE
> 
> I have regularly observed that the Apache OpenOffice project has limited 
> capacity for sustaining the project in an energetic manner.  It is also my 
> considered opinion that there is no ready supply of developers who have the 
> capacity, capability, and will to supplement the roughly half-dozen 
> volunteers holding the project together.  It doesn't matter what the reasons 
> for that might be.
> 
> The Apache Project Maturity Model,
> , 
> identifies the characteristics for which an Apache project is expected to 
> strive. 
> 
> Recently, some elements have been brought into serious question:
> 
> QU20: The 

Re: [DISCUSS] What Would OpenOffice Retirement Involve? (long)

[RA Stehmann]

Hello,

our discussion became public:

http://www.linux-magazin.de/content/view/full/106599

This shows a public interest. So "going public" seems not to difficult.

Kind regards
Michael





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Re: [DISCUSS] What Would OpenOffice Retirement Involve? (long)

[Roberto Galoppini]

Quick top note: to avoid multiple mails I'll comment this and the others
messages here.

First, I totally agree with Andrea, let's focus on what needs to be done,
it's inappropriate at best to discuss anything related to the shutdown at
this time. Yet if someone enjoys the exercise of style that's ok, but
please don't ask people doing the work to stop doing the right thing for
engaging in this game. Enough said.

Second, as Michael says we need more developers. When I was at SourceForge
we have been often able to help projects here and there to find more
developers, I'm confident Dave Brondsema (Apache Allura VP) can help us to
get one or more calls out via forums, blog and newsletters.

On the same line we could ask some help to get the news out via Slashdot, I
guess at the end of the day after all the blame it would be a news to let
people know the community is still there, and some how growing. As far as
we're ok with the Slashdot style of communication, we would probably have
good chance to be covered.


On Friday, 2 September 2016, Jörg Schmidt  wrote:

> Hello,
>
> > From: Dr. Michael Stehmann [mailto:anw...@rechtsanwalt-stehmann.de
> ]
>
> > the situation as I see it (I am no developer) is, that we need
> > "developers, developers, developers, developers ... ".
>
> > [...]
>
> This is not wrong, but ...
>
> Developers will participate primarily in projects which remain publicly
> well.
>
> If we look at LibreOffice and compare:
> LibreOffice, that is *good* (not more) software and *excellent* public
> relations.
> OpenOffice, that is *exellent* software and *pretty bad* public relations.
>
> We need to understand evaluate software as the normal user: their first
> scale is essential to public presentation of a software, and only
> secondarily the purely technical characteristics of a software.
>
> We need to understand the difference between a software such as the Apache
> Webserver https://httpd.apache.org/ (a software for experts) and
> OpenOffice (a software for end users).
>
>
> The problem of AOO is a Specific:
>
> many people who have worked for OOo (.org!) done their way and OOo has
> accepted the results and the work integrated into the project.
>
> The operation of Apache is too formalistic for such people, for example,
> for the local German community of OpenOffice. At the time of OpenOffice.org
> many helpers did their part, because there were few organizational hurdles.
>
> Example:
> I have been working for many years for the PrOOo-box (
> http://www.prooo-box.org), at the very beginning was that a purely
> private project, BUT it was always a project to support OpenOffice.
> The community of OOo has recognized this and has the PrOOo-box as part of
> OpenOffice accepted (more precisely, as part of the German community of OO).
>
> In Apache, however we are only "third-party". No question, the
> classification as "third-party" is formally correct, because it conforms to
> the rules of Apache, but it inhibits the practical work.
>
> *It is urgently needed to give local communities more autonomy, which
> would forward the work.*
>
>
> Let me say for my own:
> I work more than 10 years for OpenOffice (.org and Apache) and I am all
> the time loyal to OpenOffice. I am now a committer of Apache, and of course
> I respect the rules of Apache ... BUT in practice, there are task where you
> have to act, and it is not always time to comply with formalities.
>
> example:
> Last month, the PrOOo-box was published in a large German IT magazine [1].
> This was a great success for the PrOOo-box. I would have preferred if it
> had been a success for OpenOffice.
>
> What i mean?
> We (the german community, and all local communities) need the opportunity
> to speak locally for OpenOffice. It is undisputed that this must be
> coordinated with the international Apache OpenOffice community, but this
> coordination can only be done in the form of a frame, not for every single
> little action, because we have no time for the coordination of every detail.


> Having been part of OOo in the old times I remember well the local
> chapters, wonder if that would really collide with the Apache way, though.
> Speak locally not only should be possible, but also praised. I understand
> the "third party" thing might be more complex to handle, still we could
> evalute on a case by case basis what we could do. Even if it takes time,
> maybe it's not a waste of it.


> Roberto


>
>
>
> Greetings
> Jörg
>
>
> [1]
> https://www.idgshop.de/PC-WELT-Plus-09-2016.htm?
> websale8=idg=1-6058=2-5278
>
>
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org
> 
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
> 
>
>

Re: [DISCUSS] What Would OpenOffice Retirement Involve? (long)

[Jörg Schmidt]

Hello, 

> From: Dr. Michael Stehmann [mailto:anw...@rechtsanwalt-stehmann.de] 

> the situation as I see it (I am no developer) is, that we need
> "developers, developers, developers, developers ... ".

> [...]

This is not wrong, but ...

Developers will participate primarily in projects which remain publicly well.

If we look at LibreOffice and compare:
LibreOffice, that is *good* (not more) software and *excellent* public 
relations.
OpenOffice, that is *exellent* software and *pretty bad* public relations.

We need to understand evaluate software as the normal user: their first scale 
is essential to public presentation of a software, and only secondarily the 
purely technical characteristics of a software.

We need to understand the difference between a software such as the Apache 
Webserver https://httpd.apache.org/ (a software for experts) and OpenOffice (a 
software for end users).


The problem of AOO is a Specific:

many people who have worked for OOo (.org!) done their way and OOo has accepted 
the results and the work integrated into the project.

The operation of Apache is too formalistic for such people, for example, for 
the local German community of OpenOffice. At the time of OpenOffice.org many 
helpers did their part, because there were few organizational hurdles.

Example:
I have been working for many years for the PrOOo-box 
(http://www.prooo-box.org), at the very beginning was that a purely private 
project, BUT it was always a project to support OpenOffice.
The community of OOo has recognized this and has the PrOOo-box as part of 
OpenOffice accepted (more precisely, as part of the German community of OO).

In Apache, however we are only "third-party". No question, the classification 
as "third-party" is formally correct, because it conforms to the rules of 
Apache, but it inhibits the practical work.

*It is urgently needed to give local communities more autonomy, which would 
forward the work.*


Let me say for my own:
I work more than 10 years for OpenOffice (.org and Apache) and I am all the 
time loyal to OpenOffice. I am now a committer of Apache, and of course I 
respect the rules of Apache ... BUT in practice, there are task where you have 
to act, and it is not always time to comply with formalities.

example:
Last month, the PrOOo-box was published in a large German IT magazine [1]. This 
was a great success for the PrOOo-box. I would have preferred if it had been a 
success for OpenOffice. 

What i mean?
We (the german community, and all local communities) need the opportunity to 
speak locally for OpenOffice. It is undisputed that this must be coordinated 
with the international Apache OpenOffice community, but this coordination can 
only be done in the form of a frame, not for every single little action, 
because we have no time for the coordination of every detail.


Greetings
Jörg


[1]
https://www.idgshop.de/PC-WELT-Plus-09-2016.htm?websale8=idg=1-6058=2-5278



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Re: [DISCUSS] What Would OpenOffice Retirement Involve? (long)

[Andrea Pescetti]

Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:

One option for remedy that must be considered is retirement of the project.  ...
There are those who fear that discussing retirement can become a 
self-fulfilling prophecy.


This is becoming too much. There are other options. Namely, a new 
release will invalidate the prerequisites for your mail. Out of respect 
for the people who volunteered to steer a new release we should be 
supportive of them instead of playing the "what if" game.


Still, thank you for showing that retirement would be much more 
difficult than making a new release! So the best (my favorite) option is 
now clearly to make a release happen.


Regards,
  Andrea.

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