Re: Become the IMAP client for documents [Re: Differentiate or Die]

2016-09-20 Thread Peter Kovacs
Yeah I mean weird.

Xen  schrieb am So., 18. Sep. 2016, 15:17:

> Peter Kovacs schreef op 18-09-2016 5:38:
>
> >> I don't know how much can be gained by simply using an alternative
> >> that is in essence, the same kind of program. I still won't have cloud
> >> access and will be far away from using something like Google Drive or
> >> OneDrive.
> > btw. have you tried dropbox?
> > they have an official Linux client.
>
>
> I wouldn't really ever feel safe with Dropbox.
>
> That's just disaster waiting to happen, in a way.
>
>
>
> > I recommend the documentary: indi games: the movie. Gives you an Idea
> > on why people do wired things.
>
> You mean weird?
>
> I am not really talking about those kinda guys. I am really talking
> about games that have no market at all. Downloading the film though.
> When Diablo II was released it was not a many-million-dollar budget
> game. Of course they had professional musicians and all of that.
>
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Re: Become the IMAP client for documents [Re: Differentiate or Die]

2016-09-18 Thread Xen

Peter Kovacs schreef op 18-09-2016 5:38:

I don't know how much can be gained by simply using an alternative 
that is in essence, the same kind of program. I still won't have cloud 
access and will be far away from using something like Google Drive or 
OneDrive.

btw. have you tried dropbox?
they have an official Linux client.



I wouldn't really ever feel safe with Dropbox.

That's just disaster waiting to happen, in a way.




I recommend the documentary: indi games: the movie. Gives you an Idea
on why people do wired things.


You mean weird?

I am not really talking about those kinda guys. I am really talking 
about games that have no market at all. Downloading the film though. 
When Diablo II was released it was not a many-million-dollar budget 
game. Of course they had professional musicians and all of that.


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Re: Become the IMAP client for documents [Re: Differentiate or Die]

2016-09-17 Thread Peter Kovacs

On 17.09.2016 17:10, Xen wrote:


I had not known about it, so thank you.

I am not impressed with its looks, but they don't feature large size 
screenshots, so I don't know.
you are welcome. I was also not impressed. the last writing tool that 
impressed me was Scribus. However that tool is really bad with tables.

[...]
I don't know how much can be gained by simply using an alternative 
that is in essence, the same kind of program. I still won't have cloud 
access and will be far away from using something like Google Drive or 
OneDrive.

btw. have you tried dropbox?
they have an official Linux client.


Migrating to a non-prominent tool for me is never a very appealing 
thing. It's the same with computer games: there are a 100.000 of them 
but only a few that really appeal. The "no name" or "B-brand" computer 
games generally are not that interesting and I wonder why companies 
even *try*. If you do something, at least try to be the best, and 
don't just copy what another has done in the hopes of some success.


With computer games, this is often shown with the lack of creative story.
I recommend the documentary: indi games: the movie. Gives you an Idea on 
why people do wired things.

I believe Open Source as such has no Market interest. They exist as
long as someone has the Code. Development is not the main focus.


That almost sounds like it is just a storage place for projects, a 
dump place of sorts, where projects can retire ;-).

I am sure Oracle had the same thought. ;-)

All the best.
Peter


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RE: Become the IMAP client for documents [Re: Differentiate or Die]

2016-09-17 Thread Dennis E. Hamilton


> -Original Message-
> From: Xen [mailto:l...@xenhideout.nl]
> Sent: Saturday, September 17, 2016 12:57
> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Become the IMAP client for documents [Re: Differentiate or
> Die]
> 
> toki schreef op 17-09-2016 17:52:
> > On 17/09/2016 10:46, Peter Kovacs wrote:
> >
> >> (Maybe WPS is a good alternate to you then. I read in the german
> Linux
> >
> > Why would a program whose developers, in the name of destroying the
> > user
> > experience, removed features, functionalities, and capabilities. The
> > only user case in which that is a virtue, is one in which the user has
> > no qualms about not being able to open documents created with the
> > software.
> 
> After reading some threads on a Dutch review site I can't say I have
> really seen any positive reviews or remarks about WPS. Most of that came
> down to ill compatibility with MS products. I am sure it works fine on
> its own but also cannot save or open(?) in ODT.
> 
> I'm not sure if it is still based on OpenOffice?
[orcmid] 

Current versions of WPS do not support ODF Formats.  Only Microsoft Office 
formats are supported, beside the native .wps format.

The Windows version uses Qt and while one might see similarities in the GUI, I 
don't think there is any meaningful connection with OpenOffice. The "native" 
.wps format does not use a Zip package.  LibreOffice opens it though.  It is in 
the Microsoft DocFile format and could be a flavor of .doc.

Also, the software installs in AppData\Local\Kingsoft\WPS Office\ (on Windows 
10).

It all appears very smooth.  I have no idea about the quality of Microsoft 
format support, including OOXML.


[ ... ]


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Re: Become the IMAP client for documents [Re: Differentiate or Die]

2016-09-17 Thread Xen

toki schreef op 17-09-2016 17:52:

On 17/09/2016 10:46, Peter Kovacs wrote:


(Maybe WPS is a good alternate to you then. I read in the german Linux


Why would a program whose developers, in the name of destroying the 
user

experience, removed features, functionalities, and capabilities. The
only user case in which that is a virtue, is one in which the user has
no qualms about not being able to open documents created with the 
software.


After reading some threads on a Dutch review site I can't say I have 
really seen any positive reviews or remarks about WPS. Most of that came 
down to ill compatibility with MS products. I am sure it works fine on 
its own but also cannot save or open(?) in ODT.


I'm not sure if it is still based on OpenOffice?

Seeing the number of changes they have made to their (international) 
versions and their name, I don't think they have a very consistent 
outlook on the thing. It seems rather 'spurious' or haphazard. Very 
successful in China apparently. And the Android app is apparently 
greatly recommended over any alternative (so for tablet use etc). Recent 
free versions should have less limitations (no watermark on printing) 
but may still not save in .docx format.


Personally I generally mistrust Chinese products. I have only once tried 
a Chinese email client, and it was not a good product.


I also hardly trust their "phone home" capabilities, but that aside.

I tend to want to filter Chinese products through Japanese or western 
agencies ;-).


Also never really happy with the cheap stuff I order from the cheap 
websites... it just feels dirty to me, except one time with some plugs.


So I don't really think WPS is a good alternative, but then I also don't 
really know what you mean here, Toki ;-).


Regards.

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Re: Become the IMAP client for documents [Re: Differentiate or Die]

2016-09-17 Thread toki
On 17/09/2016 10:46, Peter Kovacs wrote:

> (Maybe WPS is a good alternate to you then. I read in the german Linux

Why would a program whose developers, in the name of destroying the user
experience, removed features, functionalities, and capabilities. The
only user case in which that is a virtue, is one in which the user has
no qualms about not being able to open documents created with the software.

jonathon

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Re: Become the IMAP client for documents [Re: Differentiate or Die]

2016-09-17 Thread Xen

Peter Kovacs schreef op 17-09-2016 12:46:

Hello


I have a question.

I dont know the Open Document Foundation. But maybe they work on it. I
mean they forked from Oracle OpenOffice because they were frustrated
that the errors were not fixed.

I personly do not know, but I would not be surprised if Apache
Foundation as the successor to Oracle has not has such structures. I
think classic way is within Apaches Foundation that they cooperate
with one or more  interst groups (free devlopers, communities,
cooperations / Companies) that has an interest in development of the
Product. With this method different Companies can cooperate in order
to achieve their individual goals and save money with synergy. Can
someone maybe enlight this point? Am I right?

So the question is which Structures does Apache Open Office offers to 
users?



Xen are you willing to pay a sum in order to get a fullfillment of
your needs? - Or is it more important to you that the feature you need
already exist?

(Maybe WPS is a good alternate to you then. I read in the german Linux
magazin (I think latest edition) that they are pretty stable and quite
good on working with docx.)


I had not known about it, so thank you.

I am not impressed with its looks, but they don't feature large size 
screenshots, so I don't know.


I hesitate to go to completely new solutions particularly if it means 
abandoning what I am already familiar with and also if it is not 
actually a new type of solution, but really more of the same. Something 
like Google Docs is, of course, inspiring. I am also a developer.


I don't know how much can be gained by simply using an alternative that 
is in essence, the same kind of program. I still won't have cloud access 
and will be far away from using something like Google Drive or OneDrive.


At least on Linux, and even though on Windows these things are obviously 
much easier


I don't want to bitch here but Windows usage is not very possible for me 
just yet. Having stuff in the Cloud is even a form of data security for 
me. I have little to hide at this point and just having secure data (not 
losing it) is more important than any thoughts of "oh google".


Migrating to a non-prominent tool for me is never a very appealing 
thing. It's the same with computer games: there are a 100.000 of them 
but only a few that really appeal. The "no name" or "B-brand" computer 
games generally are not that interesting and I wonder why companies even 
*try*. If you do something, at least try to be the best, and don't just 
copy what another has done in the hopes of some success.


With computer games, this is often shown with the lack of creative 
story.





I believe Open Source as such has no Market interest. They exist as
long as someone has the Code. Development is not the main focus.


That almost sounds like it is just a storage place for projects, a dump 
place of sorts, where projects can retire ;-).


I realize what I say could be visionary or "different" or challenging or 
odd or weird or non-functional.


It is just that I approach it as a developer with a bit of an 
entrepeneurial mind. I see the potential for something, you just have to 
believe in it. Not saying I can do it, but if people would be inspired 
with the same, I would not be the last to be interested to join in on 
that.


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Re: Become the IMAP client for documents [Re: Differentiate or Die]

2016-09-17 Thread Peter Kovacs

Hello


I have a question.

I dont know the Open Document Foundation. But maybe they work on it. I 
mean they forked from Oracle OpenOffice because they were frustrated 
that the errors were not fixed.


I personly do not know, but I would not be surprised if Apache 
Foundation as the successor to Oracle has not has such structures. I 
think classic way is within Apaches Foundation that they cooperate with 
one or more  interst groups (free devlopers, communities, cooperations / 
Companies) that has an interest in development of the Product. With this 
method different Companies can cooperate in order to achieve their 
individual goals and save money with synergy. Can someone maybe enlight 
this point? Am I right?


So the question is which Structures does Apache Open Office offers to 
users?



Xen are you willing to pay a sum in order to get a fullfillment of your 
needs? - Or is it more important to you that the feature you need 
already exist?


(Maybe WPS is a good alternate to you then. I read in the german Linux 
magazin (I think latest edition) that they are pretty stable and quite 
good on working with docx.)



I believe Open Source as such has no Market interest. They exist as long 
as someone has the Code. Development is not the main focus.


All the best.

Peter

On 16.09.2016 13:40, Xen wrote:

Phillip Rhodes schreef op 08-09-2016 22:18:

So anyway, just wanted to seed this discussion and hopefully provoke 
some
serious thinking around this.  Let's think hard about what we want to 
be so

that
we can easily say "Why develop/use AOO instead of X?" type questions.


I just wanted to take this opportunity to voice my ideas again ;-).

I will keep it short this time.

I am a user who is disgrunted by both the features and stability of 
LibreOffice and probably also OpenOffice, since many features are the 
same. One important feature for me is a GOOD undo facility and both 
products don't have it, because they don't store, or merge, block 
level undo's resulting from typing. In mostly any editor I can go 
infinitely into the past as I undo stuff but in OO and LO it is 
limited to a few sentences at most.


Last time this happened I swore to never use LO again and started 
using Google Docs.


The only reason I am not using Microsoft Office (365) now is that 
there is no Linux variant of it.


Given these flaws and failings for me (and sometimes LO just crashes 
and takes your work with you and it is unrecoverable) and given the 
fact that I think OO looks outdated (on Linux), I would have ventured 
in the past that these were the most important things for me:


* I do not want to be exclusively dependent on the ODT format editors 
anymore
- In Windows I have much better fonts available (or more of them) than 
in Linux
- Even Google Docs just has much better fonts than Linux and it even 
has the Linux fonts, so there you ahve that.


* I would like AOO (or anything) to be a glue between the platforms. 
Cloud is becoming very important or is already so. Being able to 
reference documents on Google Drive can be important. Being able to 
reference documents on Microsoft OneDrive can be important.


- Google Docs natively saves.. or ehm, downloads, documents in .docx, 
but can also process .odt, I believe. So in order to stay relevant you 
must focus, for instance, on perfect interoperability between AOO and 
the .docx that result from Google Docs.


- Since there is no Microsoft Office client on Linux, and neither do 
they have an online editor, it becomes product to become that client 
to Microsoft OneDrive that can also edit or save in .docx format. Now 
there are a few meagre solutions for using OneDrive on Linux, but it 
is not much.


Suppose AOO had its own OneDrive client plugin? That you could use AOO 
to browse and modify, load and save, documents on OneDrive?


Just the same as that Microsoft Office would do, is what I mean. Just 
become cloud-ready. Just allow a person to save on OneDrive.


* Fix the OpenOffice looks (at least on Linux). That black hard shadow 
behind the "page" is not good enough anymore. Make sure it looks nice 
enough and start with that thick black border.


Google Docs works awesomely if a bit slow (due to the internet 
connection) and you can't do everything you can do in a regular editor 
(particularly positioning and such things) (and you can only choose a 
few font sizes) but in general (apart from not being able to actually 
manually really save stuff) the editing experience is much nice than 
either OpenOffice or LibreOffice. And it's just a new product, right.


It's not perfect but looks much better than anything else I've seen 
and you don't run the risk of losing your content, that I constantly 
have with LibreOffice/OO.


I have probably lost important court battles due to LibreOffice.

So I will say 3 things:

- fix the looks
- interoperate with OneDrive and Google Drive if possible (OneDrive 
more important) and ensure perfect compability with these 

Re: Become the IMAP client for documents [Re: Differentiate or Die]

2016-09-16 Thread Xen

Dennis E. Hamilton schreef op 16-09-2016 18:23:


However, OneDrive does accept ODT documents and they can be viewed
on-line via Microsoft Office Web Apps (now called Office Online).
There is online editing although it might require being a Microsoft
Office user.  I will have to check that.  Also, it might be that a
Linux-operating browser isn't compatible with what the Web Apps
require.


Oh, apologies. I seriously had not been able to find "Office Online" 
when I had searched for it :-/.


I haven't been able to test it and the site is very slow, also your 
screens didn't make it through(?).


I can say I instantly dislike it though. But then, I dislike most of 
anything Microsoft does these days (that started with Windows 7 and the 
ribbon and the new configuration screen and start menu, and got much 
worse with Windows 8).


I probably personally could not get myself to use this product (Office 
Online) even though it seems to work fine with Linux (I am not an 
exclusive Linux user, but for now..) and Google Docs is just a much 
better product from my point of view,


but I myself am currently also a Lumia user (and I detest it) and 
because Google has its accounts linked to everything (YouTube, etc.) I 
run a much larger risk of having to dump my "Google Accounts" because 
something happens in one of the other "services" that makes me want to 
get rid of it. This is why personally I hesitate strongly to use Google 
for anything permanent or even persistent.


For me, Microsoft is only : OneDrive and my (this) phone. Microsoft is 
also more married to the platform (of Windows). So for me personally 
Microsoft has a great advantage because the chances that I will dump my 
Microsoft account "for no good reason" are just much slimmer (knocks on 
dead wood).


Microsoft software is abysmal compared to android from my POV. But the 
platform itself has advantages for me (Windows 10, OneDrive). I guess my 
stance on OpenOffice should change.


But I still think there are two aspects that speak in its favour:

* the desktop is being abandoned by many suppliers. However it is in 
part hype. Tablets are not really that usable and even hybrid devices 
have their detriments. They are not sturdy, you can lose components, you 
cannot replace batteries, etc. etc. Ideally there'd be cloud services 
offered by smaller suppliers that do not have to be as big as the big 
software companies but that can "tackle on" to a larger framework where 
actual hosting is done by independents of some sort, but the framework 
is supported by a community or industry standard.


* Microsoft software is just very poor ;-).

LibreOffice does not really target Windows users at all. I hardly doubt 
I can find a person within 10 minutes of searching on the street (I live 
in a city centre, and it is friday night) who has ever heard about 
LibreOffice if I tried. Well, one person would, but it was a techie, and 
another whom I meet now and then is also a programmer.


"Free Software" does not inspire anyone outside of tech, really, apart 
from the fact that you don't have to pay money for it.


People are perfectly fine with not being in "control" of their devices 
in that sense.


As long as their devices do what needs to be done, they don't give jack 
shit about who is doing it or who controls the software, mostly.


So if LibreOffice's only selling point is "FOSS" or because of its 
superior build system or because of its lean code, well... that only 
applies to programmers, and programmer-lovers, not to actual real 
people.


I use LibreOffice today because it looks better, but even though I don't 
like it, I really have to use Google Docs or risk losing my work due to 
crashes or the inability to undo.


Of course (???) people mention that developing for LibreOffice is much 
easier (?) than for AOO.


But LibreOffice really has no future other than becoming like the only 
open source Linux solution that exists.


There is not going to be a future where Windows or Mac users will ever 
want to know about it. People are not interested in a product that only 
has great quality code, but not great quality features or anything of 
the kind.


So the future for AOO, if there is any, still lies with Windows users 
mostly.


It is still the free alternative, but these days the free alternative 
must also support cloud services.


That's all I can say. If Microsoft software doesn't support ODF all that 
well, then maybe you just have to deal with that in a way.


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RE: Become the IMAP client for documents [Re: Differentiate or Die]

2016-09-16 Thread Dennis E. Hamilton
Minor touch-up about OneDrive and Microsoft Office Web Apps.

> -Original Message-
> From: Xen [mailto:l...@xenhideout.nl]
> Sent: Friday, September 16, 2016 04:40
> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
> Subject: Become the IMAP client for documents [Re: Differentiate or Die]
> 
[ ... ]

> - Since there is no Microsoft Office client on Linux, and neither do
> they have an online editor, it becomes product to become that client to
> Microsoft OneDrive that can also edit or save in .docx format. Now there
> are a few meagre solutions for using OneDrive on Linux, but it is not
> much.
[orcmid] 

True, the Microsoft Office Linux client-penetration case is via Android.  

However, OneDrive does accept ODT documents and they can be viewed on-line via 
Microsoft Office Web Apps (now called Office Online).  There is online editing 
although it might require being a Microsoft Office user.  I will have to check 
that.  Also, it might be that a Linux-operating browser isn't compatible with 
what the Web Apps require. 

I have attached two PNG that show an ODT being opened in Word Online from 
OneDrive.  If they come through, you can see what the Microsoft Office Web apps 
look like.  The browser in one case is Internet Explorer 11.  In the second 
case, I used Chrome (and notice the offer of an Office Online Extension for 
Chrome).  In both cases the document is a trivial .odt that I created just to 
be able to check to check on the improvement of Office Online support for ODF 
over time.

PS: Since I have a Microsoft Lumia (Windows 10) smartphone, I just used the 
OneDrive application there to access the same file. In this case, the file 
requests permission to use an on-line conversion service and then opens the 
result as read-only and editing is only available if I allow the document to be 
saved in an Office format.  
   An unfortunate aspect of this mobile OneDrive client is that it does not 
show filename extensions and I don't see any way to change that. There is a 
thumbnail icon, but it is for Word, so a .docx of the same name looks like a 
second copy of the same file.  I have no idea how the OneDrive application 
manages and the Office mobile applications work together on Android and iOS.

> 
> Suppose AOO had its own OneDrive client plugin? That you could use AOO
> to browse and modify, load and save, documents on OneDrive?
> 
> Just the same as that Microsoft Office would do, is what I mean. Just
> become cloud-ready. Just allow a person to save on OneDrive.
> 
[ ... ]


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Become the IMAP client for documents [Re: Differentiate or Die]

2016-09-16 Thread Xen

Phillip Rhodes schreef op 08-09-2016 22:18:

So anyway, just wanted to seed this discussion and hopefully provoke 
some
serious thinking around this.  Let's think hard about what we want to 
be so

that
we can easily say "Why develop/use AOO instead of X?" type questions.


I just wanted to take this opportunity to voice my ideas again ;-).

I will keep it short this time.

I am a user who is disgrunted by both the features and stability of 
LibreOffice and probably also OpenOffice, since many features are the 
same. One important feature for me is a GOOD undo facility and both 
products don't have it, because they don't store, or merge, block level 
undo's resulting from typing. In mostly any editor I can go infinitely 
into the past as I undo stuff but in OO and LO it is limited to a few 
sentences at most.


Last time this happened I swore to never use LO again and started using 
Google Docs.


The only reason I am not using Microsoft Office (365) now is that there 
is no Linux variant of it.


Given these flaws and failings for me (and sometimes LO just crashes and 
takes your work with you and it is unrecoverable) and given the fact 
that I think OO looks outdated (on Linux), I would have ventured in the 
past that these were the most important things for me:


* I do not want to be exclusively dependent on the ODT format editors 
anymore
- In Windows I have much better fonts available (or more of them) than 
in Linux
- Even Google Docs just has much better fonts than Linux and it even has 
the Linux fonts, so there you ahve that.


* I would like AOO (or anything) to be a glue between the platforms. 
Cloud is becoming very important or is already so. Being able to 
reference documents on Google Drive can be important. Being able to 
reference documents on Microsoft OneDrive can be important.


- Google Docs natively saves.. or ehm, downloads, documents in .docx, 
but can also process .odt, I believe. So in order to stay relevant you 
must focus, for instance, on perfect interoperability between AOO and 
the .docx that result from Google Docs.


- Since there is no Microsoft Office client on Linux, and neither do 
they have an online editor, it becomes product to become that client to 
Microsoft OneDrive that can also edit or save in .docx format. Now there 
are a few meagre solutions for using OneDrive on Linux, but it is not 
much.


Suppose AOO had its own OneDrive client plugin? That you could use AOO 
to browse and modify, load and save, documents on OneDrive?


Just the same as that Microsoft Office would do, is what I mean. Just 
become cloud-ready. Just allow a person to save on OneDrive.


* Fix the OpenOffice looks (at least on Linux). That black hard shadow 
behind the "page" is not good enough anymore. Make sure it looks nice 
enough and start with that thick black border.


Google Docs works awesomely if a bit slow (due to the internet 
connection) and you can't do everything you can do in a regular editor 
(particularly positioning and such things) (and you can only choose a 
few font sizes) but in general (apart from not being able to actually 
manually really save stuff) the editing experience is much nice than 
either OpenOffice or LibreOffice. And it's just a new product, right.


It's not perfect but looks much better than anything else I've seen and 
you don't run the risk of losing your content, that I constantly have 
with LibreOffice/OO.


I have probably lost important court battles due to LibreOffice.

So I will say 3 things:

- fix the looks
- interoperate with OneDrive and Google Drive if possible (OneDrive more 
important) and ensure perfect compability with these formats
- focus less on your own prominence as a True Alternative and become a 
slave, so to say, to the document formats used by the Big Two, (which 
are .docx and .odt) and just make sure your program can use these 
formats AND interface with the cloud storage that they use.


Then if you've got that settled you can eventually maybe migrate or move 
to your own cloud platform or provider or choice of providers so that 
you become like an IMAP client to IMAP servers, even being capable to 
copy documents in between, etc. Become the IMAP client for documents.


That's what I will say: become the IMAP "mail" client for documents, 
that can interface with various cloud platforms as you edit locally but 
can also save remotely.


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Re: Differentiate or Die

2016-09-16 Thread Xen

Jim Jagielski schreef op 09-09-2016 20:11:

One of the great things about FOSS is the tight connection
between users and developers. After all, most developers are
users that have an itch to scratch.

If there are things that the user community wants, then
chances are good that developers will be jazzed about working
on them, or, at least, the pool of potential developers
might be increased.


This is hardly ever the case.

The whole point of developing is that users who are not developers, can 
also use it.


There is no great project that can come about by mere itch-scratching. 
You cannot take a 100 developers that are not connected and have them 
agree on a product that needs to surface.


What I mean is that this might work for small deviations of an already 
existing project, but I venture that most successful (smaller) projects 
are started by individuals that may be scratching their own itch, but 
they are also visionary about it and are doing something they really 
like.


A bigger entity like OpenOffice needs vision that is shared by multiple 
people (or the group as a whole) and cannot depend on random or spurious 
individuals who seek about to change something. That's like individually 
trying to change the leaves of a tree, but only a small part of them. 
You can never change the tree that way.


Most of the stuff that has been suggested of what I've seen is only 
small, meagre changes, if I can put it that way. Changes that do not 
really require vision at all, at least not something bigger than what 
there already is.


If the user wants something but cannot develop it, and if the developer 
wants something, and can, we have a problem, because users (in general) 
and developers are not the same kind of people.


The general request in general of users in FOSS to endlessly file 
unwanted bug reports is one example. They are not treated as users, but 
as developers, and this doesn't work. People become disheartened over 
such onslaught of bugs and the constant requirement to file them.


A developer needs to be responsible, and needs to responsibly listen to 
the users. That's the only way it can work. You need to be a service 
provider.


For me, rare is the occasion that a FOSS developer will say: right, you 
are right, I am going to implement that thing for you.


It happens. But not that often.

Mostly they want your free time, and not do anything themlves, and then 
have you develop their feature that they might want, but they will only 
say so after the fact whether they actually do. Lazy bums, I call them 
;-).


Free labour and you can turn it down as much as you like ;-).

Recently for me the AutoFS developer was interested in a feature or 
discussion, and the libblkid developer instantly agreed to develop 
something, as it was apparently needed to fix other things.


Both are kernel projects, so maybe there is a hint ;-).

The only thing you can do, potentially, ever, is to envision a future 
and then agree on it. You need vision to start with. You cannot 
haphazardly have individuals make minor changes or even structural 
changes that don't change the base project or where it was going. There 
was once a company that had vision and a product came about.


And now, if you don't agree to have the same level of vision, you won't 
go anywhere. You will stay stuck where you are right now.




But open source, and open source projects, should not be
run in a normal, corporate s/w development mode, where some
"entity" decides what features are needed, etc... We should
be in touch with what our users, and our potential users, want.



You are right, and pardon me if I misinterpreted your message a little 
bit (you were top-posting).


But the corporate mode ideally also just listens to users.

And then creates a product that they know will sell.

And this is true of everyting. Just because you are FOSS and there is no 
money involved doesn't mean you should create unsellable products.


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Re: Differentiate or Die

2016-09-09 Thread toki
On 09/09/2016 18:11, Jim Jagielski wrote:
> We should be in touch with what our users, and our potential users, want.

Do you mean something other
https://bz.apache.org/ooo/buglist.cgi?f1=votes=greaterthan=Bug%20Number_format=advanced=---=100

jonathon

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Re: Differentiate or Die

2016-09-09 Thread Hagar Delest

Le 09/09/2016 à 20:11, Jim Jagielski a écrit :

One of the great things about FOSS is the tight connection
between users and developers. After all, most developers are
users that have an itch to scratch.

If there are things that the user community wants, then
chances are good that developers will be jazzed about working
on them, or, at least, the pool of potential developers
might be increased.

But open source, and open source projects, should not be
run in a normal, corporate s/w development mode, where some
"entity" decides what features are needed, etc... We should
be in touch with what our users, and our potential users, want.

No need to go very far. There is a bug tracker with Requests For Enhancements 
and votes.

Hagar

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Re: Differentiate or Die

2016-09-09 Thread Jim Jagielski
One of the great things about FOSS is the tight connection
between users and developers. After all, most developers are
users that have an itch to scratch.

If there are things that the user community wants, then
chances are good that developers will be jazzed about working
on them, or, at least, the pool of potential developers
might be increased.

But open source, and open source projects, should not be
run in a normal, corporate s/w development mode, where some
"entity" decides what features are needed, etc... We should
be in touch with what our users, and our potential users, want.

> On Sep 9, 2016, at 1:53 PM, Jorg Schmidt  wrote:
> 
>> From: Jim Jagielski [mailto:j...@jagunet.com] 
> 
>>> LibreOffice has a list of big ideas, called "crazy ideas", at
>>> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Development/Crazy_Ideas
>>> These require big effort and it would be great if an office suite
>>> would implement them.
>>> Notable examples are
>>> 1. multi process instances
>>> 2. split MSOffice support in library
>>> 
>>> Picking one of those and implementing it, would allow to 
>> differentiate.
>>> 
>> 
>> Why not ask our user community?
> 
> Yes, that would be a theoretically good way, but I fear that's in practice a 
> very
> complicated subject.
> 
> Let me formulate in short: open source communities work mostly meritocratic, 
> not
> democratic
> 
> 
> Jorg
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: Differentiate or Die

2016-09-09 Thread Jim Jagielski

> On Sep 9, 2016, at 11:31 AM, Simos Xenitellis  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> LibreOffice has a list of big ideas, called "crazy ideas", at
> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Development/Crazy_Ideas
> These require big effort and it would be great if an office suite
> would implement them.
> Notable examples are
> 1. multi process instances
> 2. split MSOffice support in library
> 
> Picking one of those and implementing it, would allow to differentiate.
> 

Why not ask our user community?


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Re: Differentiate or Die

2016-09-09 Thread Pedro Giffuni

Hi Jörg;

...

> From: Pedro Giffuni [mailto:p...@apache.org]

> The thing about so-called "marketing gurus" is that their assumptions
> about how the markets work may break down when we are talking about
> software that has zero cost.
>
> I will simplify the marketing issue making a bold statement: "We have
> millions of users because we do 80% of what the market leader
> does but
> with 0% of the price."


No, the success of free software is not a question of price.


The success of free software is based on many things, of which price is 
only one of them. In the case of OpenOffice I sustain that the main 
factor for success is that end-users perceive it as free as in price. 
That and not the fact that we have less developers than other projects 
or that we are not being distributed in major linux distributions 
accounts for the project being successful today.




The development model of free software is something else, but it's not free. 
That is not the
goal.

read:
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/selling.en.html


The GNU copyleftists have always struggled with economics but that is 
rather off-topic.


The notion of living on distribution costs is a dead end from a gone 
era. Distribution costs have diminished hugely with the Internet, in 
such a way that even commercial producers sell more software online than 
on CDs. Have you ever paid for using GCC, or do you know anyone that 
would prefer clang because it's cheaper to download?


Nowadays, support is likely the mayor source of revenue for independent 
developers and publicity is the mayor source of revenue for content 
producers.




Furthermore:
The development and use of OpenOffice is not free, because developers have to 
be paid by their
companies or donate their own time. Users have cost for installation, 
maintenance and staff
training.
Absolutely, just compiling the code involves electricity costs, but the 
end user doesn't have to carry the burden. Many don't even know or have 
to be aware of the costs involved.


No one has really quantified the real cost of producing OpenOffice and 
then if we charged even just $1 we would more than cover what we spend 
in development (100 million in budget.. yay!).




The work of Apache is also not free, because Apache needs donations to be able 
to work.

For example see:
https://www.apache.org/foundation/sponsorship.html

on:
http://www.apache.org/foundation/thanks.html

you can see that the sum of the sponsorship is (currently, per year):

Platinum: 700,000$
Gold: 320,000$
Silver: 260,000$
Bronze: 90,000$



Such costs existed before OpenOffice was an Apache Project, and we can't 
at all quantify how much OpenOffice's value is for the Apache Software 
Foundation.


Have there been more donations thanks to OpenOffice? And then .. if 
Microsoft or Google make a donation to the ASF does it mean either of 
them is in direct support of OpenOffice?


Part of the appeal of the ASF is making use of Foundation resources like 
buildbots and mailinglists but noways anyone can fork they own codebase 
on github, enable travis-ci and distribute the code through other means. 
Money is important everywhere but it is not an absolute truth that 
opensource necessarily obeys market rules.


Pedro.




Re: Differentiate or Die

2016-09-09 Thread Simos Xenitellis
On Fri, Sep 9, 2016 at 5:53 PM, Phillip Rhodes
 wrote:
> Sure, I don't claim it's a perfect analogy between "their" world and the
> world of F/OSS.
> But I think the broad point generalizes well enough to apply to us:
>
> Have *some* differentiating factor that defines why a group of people would
> find your
> product more desirable than the other options.
>
> If, for us, that is "it's almost like MS Office, but free" and we're good
> with that, then that's
> cool.  But I kinda think we ought to stretch for something a little more
> specific, especially
> given that "almost like MS Office, but free" isn't a unique position.
>
> And I'm not proposing any big, elaborate "process" or suggesting we
> radically change
> directions (unless we want too!) but rather just saying we could/should
> spend some
> time thinking about what makes AOO special.
>

LibreOffice has a list of big ideas, called "crazy ideas", at
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Development/Crazy_Ideas
These require big effort and it would be great if an office suite
would implement them.
Notable examples are
1. multi process instances
2. split MSOffice support in library

Picking one of those and implementing it, would allow to differentiate.

Simos

> On Fri, Sep 9, 2016 at 1:41 AM, Jörg Schmidt  wrote:
>
>>
>> > From: Pedro Giffuni [mailto:p...@apache.org]
>>
>> > The thing about so-called "marketing gurus" is that their assumptions
>> > about how the markets work may break down when we are talking about
>> > software that has zero cost.
>> >
>> > I will simplify the marketing issue making a bold statement: "We have
>> > millions of users because we do 80% of what the market leader
>> > does but
>> > with 0% of the price."
>>
>>
>> No, the success of free software is not a question of price.
>>
>> The development model of free software is something else, but it's not
>> free. That is not the goal.
>>
>> read:
>> https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/selling.en.html
>>
>> Furthermore:
>> The development and use of OpenOffice is not free, because developers have
>> to be paid by their companies or donate their own time. Users have cost for
>> installation, maintenance and staff training.
>>
>> The work of Apache is also not free, because Apache needs donations to be
>> able to work.
>>
>> For example see:
>> https://www.apache.org/foundation/sponsorship.html
>>
>> on:
>> http://www.apache.org/foundation/thanks.html
>>
>> you can see that the sum of the sponsorship is (currently, per year):
>>
>> Platinum: 700,000$
>> Gold: 320,000$
>> Silver: 260,000$
>> Bronze: 90,000$
>>
>>
>>
>> Jörg
>>
>>
>> -
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
>>
>>

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Re: Differentiate or Die

2016-09-09 Thread Phillip Rhodes
Sure, I don't claim it's a perfect analogy between "their" world and the
world of F/OSS.
But I think the broad point generalizes well enough to apply to us:

Have *some* differentiating factor that defines why a group of people would
find your
product more desirable than the other options.

If, for us, that is "it's almost like MS Office, but free" and we're good
with that, then that's
cool.  But I kinda think we ought to stretch for something a little more
specific, especially
given that "almost like MS Office, but free" isn't a unique position.

And I'm not proposing any big, elaborate "process" or suggesting we
radically change
directions (unless we want too!) but rather just saying we could/should
spend some
time thinking about what makes AOO special.


Phil


This message optimized for indexing by NSA PRISM

On Fri, Sep 9, 2016 at 1:41 AM, Jörg Schmidt  wrote:

>
> > From: Pedro Giffuni [mailto:p...@apache.org]
>
> > The thing about so-called "marketing gurus" is that their assumptions
> > about how the markets work may break down when we are talking about
> > software that has zero cost.
> >
> > I will simplify the marketing issue making a bold statement: "We have
> > millions of users because we do 80% of what the market leader
> > does but
> > with 0% of the price."
>
>
> No, the success of free software is not a question of price.
>
> The development model of free software is something else, but it's not
> free. That is not the goal.
>
> read:
> https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/selling.en.html
>
> Furthermore:
> The development and use of OpenOffice is not free, because developers have
> to be paid by their companies or donate their own time. Users have cost for
> installation, maintenance and staff training.
>
> The work of Apache is also not free, because Apache needs donations to be
> able to work.
>
> For example see:
> https://www.apache.org/foundation/sponsorship.html
>
> on:
> http://www.apache.org/foundation/thanks.html
>
> you can see that the sum of the sponsorship is (currently, per year):
>
> Platinum: 700,000$
> Gold: 320,000$
> Silver: 260,000$
> Bronze: 90,000$
>
>
>
> Jörg
>
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
>
>


Re: Differentiate or Die

2016-09-08 Thread Jörg Schmidt

> From: Pedro Giffuni [mailto:p...@apache.org] 

> The thing about so-called "marketing gurus" is that their assumptions 
> about how the markets work may break down when we are talking about 
> software that has zero cost.
> 
> I will simplify the marketing issue making a bold statement: "We have 
> millions of users because we do 80% of what the market leader 
> does but 
> with 0% of the price." 


No, the success of free software is not a question of price.

The development model of free software is something else, but it's not free. 
That is not the goal.

read:
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/selling.en.html

Furthermore:
The development and use of OpenOffice is not free, because developers have to 
be paid by their companies or donate their own time. Users have cost for 
installation, maintenance and staff training.

The work of Apache is also not free, because Apache needs donations to be able 
to work.

For example see:
https://www.apache.org/foundation/sponsorship.html

on:
http://www.apache.org/foundation/thanks.html

you can see that the sum of the sponsorship is (currently, per year):

Platinum: 700,000$
Gold: 320,000$
Silver: 260,000$
Bronze: 90,000$

 

Jörg


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Re: Differentiate or Die

2016-09-08 Thread Pedro Giffuni

Hi Phillip;

The thing about so-called "marketing gurus" is that their assumptions 
about how the markets work may break down when we are talking about 
software that has zero cost.


I will simplify the marketing issue making a bold statement: "We have 
millions of users because we do 80% of what the market leader does but 
with 0% of the price." Yes, there are other software packages that 
comply with the same criteria and may even be better in some place, but 
we keep the same consistent interface and branding that people have come 
to love.


We *can* indeed still differentiate from *other-name*Office as long as 
we keep the application consistent with what our current users have come 
to love. In other words, we have to play conservative but we can 
innovate in the things that people don't see easily. OOXML is in that list.


About the license, it is certainly a strength. Not only it is finely 
recognized and permissive license, it is *one* license (well there are 
some minor pieces under other licenses but they are all permissively 
compatible). This quite honestly makes a difference as a starting point 
for other projects. LibreOffice, from the last time I looked, opted to 
obfuscate the parts of the code that are under ALv2 by just slapping 
MPLv2 on everything. This said, and IANAL so don't take this as legal 
advice, after the linux-vmware law suit it seems clear that restrictive 
licenses will be very difficult to enforce unless someone that ewants to 
enforce the licnese is getting copyright assignment.


If I had some resources, I think I would focus on the plugin mechanism, 
perhaps port some of LibreOffice features as extensions and encourage 
special purpose forks (I have also considered a personal closed-source 
fork as well). It would also be important to have some sandboxing 
capability there.


I just don't have resources for that, so for the time being I am toying 
with the idea of using APR to hijack the SAL layer, which would make AOO 
consistent with other Apache projects.


Pedro.


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