Re: Maintenance of AOO Wiki and Forum

2015-09-12 Thread Andrea Pescetti 

On 11/09/2015 jan i wrote:

I see this mail goes public on dev@ which seems to have changed a lot


I was answering your mail sent to dev.


Your description sounds ok (at least for a sales brochure), reality might
be a bit more complicated but not that much.


Well, you had stated here that maintenance takes 1 hour per month and I 
asked if we could have some details on how that hour is spent so that 
people would be able to understand if they could help.



However you avoid the real  problem, the upgrade


I did it once. I know it is painful due to the setup and I wouldn't put 
a new person on it. I mean, if someone joins the team they are more 
likely to start with the ordinary updates that take one hour per month, 
not with the upgrade of an application which is configured (for legacy 
reasons) in a very peculiar way with lots of pitfalls.



nor do I want to interfere in talks between the AOO chair and Infra.


Neither do I, and I am not aware of the contents (if any) of such talks.


naturally I am available for help when needed


Good, thanks! I remembered that we still have some updates pending that 
are not real application updates (like changing the forum homepage, the 
static one; so not even a sysadmin task) and it helps to know that 
someone may help in getting them online once they are ready.


Regards,
  Andrea.

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Re: Maintenance of AOO Wiki and Forum

2015-09-11 Thread Andrea Pescetti 

On 14/08/2015 jan i wrote:

this might be a good time for a new maintainer to step up.
The actual maintenance is  about 1 hour pr month.


Coming back to this, it is likely to be easier to find someone if we 
define this "ordinary maintenance" better. I mean, updating the 
application takes surely more than 1 hour but that is "extraordinary 
maintenance".


What falls in the "ordinary maintenance"? Login to the VM, say, every 
few days, apt-get upgrade, taking a look at the logs and basic system 
health indicators? If these are the tasks then expanding the team with 
one extra volunteer will look less daunting than upgrading the forum to 
the latest version, which is made very complex by the extremely 
complicated setup we inherited from the pre-Apache era.


Note: I did read the companion thread too, but still it didn't get into 
concrete maintenance tasks.


By the way, Jan let me thank you in public for the infrastructure work: 
unfortunately, like all sysadmin tasks, if one does a good job it 
doesn't show since everything just keeps working and people forget that 
this is due to someone properly administering them.


Regards,
  Andrea.

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Re: Maintenance of AOO Wiki and Forum

2015-09-11 Thread jan i 
I see this mail goes public on dev@ which seems to have changed a lot into
a single person deciding what happens (or at least what is
communicated outside the project). This is of course only my opinon as one
who do not follow the project closely, but I respond accordingly.

If the AOO project finds it easier to define "ordinary maintenance" then
please do so, there are lots of references in the archives as to what that
means, written by myself and other PMC members. If you have specific
questions I am happy to help.

Your description sounds ok (at least for a sales brochure), reality might
be a bit more complicated but not that much. However you avoid the real
problem, the upgrade, in my private opinion the servers need an makeover
for security reasons, but that is my personal opinion (to any hackers: the
servers are currently well protected from the outside due to the https
structure that infra prefers to use)

I understand from other lists, which I cannot refer to, that the AOO chair
(I have not seen it confirmed anywhere from the PMC) is talking with infra,
so I do not understand the background for your question, nor do I want to
interfere in talks between the AOO chair and Infra.

As I have said many times I am part of Infra and part of apache, so
naturally I am available for help when needed, but please do not use me as
a go-between infra and the project.

rgds
jan i




On Friday, September 11, 2015, Andrea Pescetti  wrote:

> On 14/08/2015 jan i wrote:
>
>> this might be a good time for a new maintainer to step up.
>> The actual maintenance is  about 1 hour pr month.
>>
>
> Coming back to this, it is likely to be easier to find someone if we
> define this "ordinary maintenance" better. I mean, updating the application
> takes surely more than 1 hour but that is "extraordinary maintenance".


>
> What falls in the "ordinary maintenance"? Login to the VM, say, every few
> days, apt-get upgrade, taking a look at the logs and basic system health
> indicators? If these are the tasks then expanding the team with one extra
> volunteer will look less daunting than upgrading the forum to the latest
> version, which is made very complex by the extremely complicated setup we
> inherited from the pre-Apache era.
>
> Note: I did read the companion thread too, but still it didn't get into
> concrete maintenance tasks.
>
> By the way, Jan let me thank you in public for the infrastructure work:
> unfortunately, like all sysadmin tasks, if one does a good job it doesn't
> show since everything just keeps working and people forget that this is due
> to someone properly administering them.
>
> Regards,
>   Andrea.
>


-- 
Sent from My iPad, sorry for any misspellings.

Re: Maintenance of AOO Wiki and Forum

2015-09-11 Thread jan i 
On Friday, September 11, 2015, Andrea Pescetti  wrote:

> On 14/08/2015 jan i wrote:
>
>> this might be a good time for a new maintainer to step up.
>> The actual maintenance is  about 1 hour pr month.
>>
>
> Coming back to this, it is likely to be easier to find someone if we
> define this "ordinary maintenance" better. I mean, updating the application
> takes surely more than 1 hour but that is "extraordinary maintenance".
>
> What falls in the "ordinary maintenance"? Login to the VM, say, every few
> days, apt-get upgrade, taking a look at the logs and basic system health
> indicators? If these are the tasks then expanding the team with one extra
> volunteer will look less daunting than upgrading the forum to the latest
> version, which is made very complex by the extremely complicated setup we
> inherited from the pre-Apache era.
>
> Note: I did read the companion thread too, but still it didn't get into
> concrete maintenance tasks.
>
> By the way, Jan let me thank you in public for the infrastructure work:
> unfortunately, like all sysadmin tasks, if one does a good job it doesn't
> show since everything just keeps working and people forget that this is due
> to someone properly administering them.
>
> Regards,
>   Andrea.
>


-- 
Sent from My iPad, sorry for any misspellings.

Re: QUESTIONS RE: Maintenance of AOO Wiki and Forum

2015-08-18 Thread jan i 
On 17 August 2015 at 23:23, Dennis E. Hamilton orc...@apache.org wrote:

 Thanks Tony, this reminds me of some questions that would help us
 understand what is involved.  These questions are anyone knowledgable of
 the current arrangements:

 I see four levels of support to wikis and forums:

  1. User Account and Content Administration
 I believe this is handed.  Does anyone believe it is not?

this is done by the wiki administrators.


  2. Administering the Running Service
 That is, a server administrator for the service (not necessarily the
 host)
 Is this done?  Do we need a replacement or an expansion here?  What
 are prerequisite qualifications for being able to do this.

I do that at the moment. I would strongly suggest at least an expansion.



  3. Administrating the Server that hosts the Service
 I assume this is where one deals with Ubuntu upgrades and such,
 whether the server is real or virtual.
 Is this provided by the project?  Do we need a replacement/expansion
 here from within the project?  Again, what are prerequisite qualifications?

Yes it is provided by the project, and actually it is extremely hard to
divided 2 and 3, they are interconnected.

I strongly suggest at least an expansion, also because the project might
have wishes which I would not see, are be able to facilitate (e.g. change
the login
configuration).

Sysadm experience brings you a long way, otherwise it is not hard to read
up on Mediawiki, mysql, ATS and Ubuntu.




  4. I assume hardware IT support is not the business of the project, and
 changing boxes is a different deal.  Yes?

It is vm´s and not physical boxes.

At the moment one of the biggest problems is how to recreate them if they
break. Infra nowadays use Puppet for that purpose. The Vms are defined in
puppet2 but
not puppet3.



 I suspect this is known.  I don't know if the necessary information is
 anywhere in project materials (haven't looked).

It is in the mail archives and on the vms themself.


 This is an area of ignorance for me.  I am not raising my hand.  I just
 want to ensure that the necessary requirements are understood and we know
 what is and is not adequately covered.

  - Dennis

 -Original Message-
 From: Tony Stevenson [mailto:t...@pc-tony.com]
 Sent: Monday, August 17, 2015 12:54
 To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
 Subject: Re: Maintenance of AOO Wiki and Forum



 On Fri, 14 Aug 2015, at 01:31 PM, jan i wrote:
  Hi.
 
  The AOO Forum vm could do with an upgrade to Ubuntu 14.04 and be defined
  in
  the new puppet structure. Defining it in the new puppet structure has the
  advantage that Infra can roll a new vm in case of problems, and thereby
  reducing downtime.
 
  The AOO Wiki vm is in strong need of a reconfiguration and update (Ubuntu
  14.04 see above). Currently there is a ATS running on the same vm in
  front
  of the mediawiki (django) application. The ATS veersion is no longer
  supported by the traffic server project. Running it on a separate vm (or
  even as the HTPPS proxy) has a lot of merit, but it has not been done.
 
  As I am reducing my engagement in the project, this might be a good time
  for a new maintainer to step up. The actual maintenance is  about 1 hour
  pr
  month.

 Can I take this opportunity to remind the community that if this service
 fails to be maintained appropriately it will be turned off, or made
 unavailable by Infra until such time it is brought up to date and
 managed.

Tony@ I assume you by maintained really think of security, Infra do not
care which
version of e.g. mediawiki the project uses, as long as there are no known
security risks.


 AIUI this was the agreement that we had with the project when it was
 handed over to enable you to manage yourselves.

I can confirm, that is what I have been told when I started, and how I
handled it.

rgds
jan i.



 Many thanks,

 --
 Tony



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Re: QUESTIONS RE: Maintenance of AOO Wiki and Forum

2015-08-17 Thread Tony Stevenson 
On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 02:23:48PM -0700, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
 Thanks Tony, this reminds me of some questions that would help us understand 
 what is involved.  These questions are anyone knowledgable of the current 
 arrangements:
 
 I see four levels of support to wikis and forums:
 
  1. User Account and Content Administration
 I believe this is handed.  Does anyone believe it is not?


How do you mean handled? This function is managed within the two
products by those who manage them already. In other words this is fully
devolved to the AOO PMC to determine how this should be managed.


  2. Administering the Running Service
 That is, a server administrator for the service (not necessarily the host)
 Is this done?  Do we need a replacement or an expansion here?  What are 
 prerequisite qualifications for being able to do this.


Again this is down to the PMC to determine how to best do this.  Right
now Infra provide a number of VMs for AOO to run the service on. This is
mostly due to significant historical inertia when AOO first joined the
ASF, but also because it is what the PMC wanted to make their lives
easier. 

If you want these to be come more managed by Infra then a significant
number of changes would need to be made to make this happen.  Not least
of which is moving the system into Puppet. This is a non-trivial piece
of work which I'd estimate would take a member of paid staff at least
4-6 weeks to complete (minimum). 


 
  3. Administrating the Server that hosts the Service
 I assume this is where one deals with Ubuntu upgrades and such, whether 
 the server is real or virtual.
 Is this provided by the project?  Do we need a replacement/expansion here 
 from within the project?  Again, what are prerequisite qualifications?


Again, due to historical inertia and what I suspect is fear of letting
go in the past (perhaps even now in the present) this element was
handled at the PMC's discretion - with the caveat that Infra would force
an update where required (say SSL vulnerability etc), or if the PMC did
not do it itself the service would be shutdown and the instance shutdown
until such time that the problem had been resolved. 

Right now, I do not believe that these instances are being properly
maintained, and are in need of significant TLC to make them tick along
nicely once more. However, owing to the obscenely difficlut (and in my
opinion frankly ridiculous) setup of the services this is near
impossible to do well. 


  4. I assume hardware IT support is not the business of the project, and 
 changing boxes is a different deal.  Yes?
 

Correct, the PMC is provided with a number of virtual machines (not
native hardware, just to avoid any confusion).  If you need to move (and
frankly I would push for this very hard) we would need to stand up the
new instances for you, based on an open discussion of your requirements.

Infra are responsible for making sure that the instances are up, and
that the hardware they run is available. 



 I suspect this is known.  I don't know if the necessary information is 
 anywhere in project materials (haven't looked). 
 
 This is an area of ignorance for me.  


I hope I have helped clarify somewhat. 


--

Many thanks,
Tony


pgpEMbLdOugGK.pgp
Description: PGP signature

RE: QUESTIONS RE: Maintenance of AOO Wiki and Forum

2015-08-17 Thread Dennis E. Hamilton 
Oh, sorry Tony.  I was hoping other on AOO could supply what they know of this 
situation.
 
I was clear that the project has responsibilities for (1) and thank you for 
clarifying (2-3) which appear to be in dangerous shape.  Thanks for clarifying 
that these are AOO responsibilities in particular.

I would like to know who are providing effort in categories (2-3) at the moment 
and also their view of the situation and the required capabilities.

I suppose any retiring incumbents can also specify what the qualifications for 
a successor are and then we can see who is equipped to perform such work.

 - - - - - - -

It seems the next question is to understand the desired state we want for the 
MediaWiki (that's the one?) and the Forums in terms of sustainable operational 
support and what is a roadmap that can get us there.

We also need to look at the most urgent steps and the least that can provide 
relief.

Is that what you see needed at this rather high level?

Finally, assuming it could be done, is there any benefit to Puppet for 
non-Infrastructure usage or are we talking about a regime that is specific to 
operation under ASF Infra?

 - - - - - - -

It should be obvious that I am an Infrastructure dufus.  

Yet I think the AOO community needs to have a clear picture and also awareness 
of the gravity of the support that is required to be provided by the project.

 - Dennis



-Original Message-
From: Tony Stevenson [mailto:t...@pc-tony.com] 
Sent: Monday, August 17, 2015 14:42
To: dev@openoffice.apache.org; orc...@apache.org
Subject: Re: QUESTIONS RE: Maintenance of AOO Wiki and Forum

On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 02:23:48PM -0700, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
 Thanks Tony, this reminds me of some questions that would help us understand 
 what is involved.  These questions are anyone knowledgable of the current 
 arrangements:
 
 I see four levels of support to wikis and forums:
 
  1. User Account and Content Administration
 I believe this is handed.  Does anyone believe it is not?


How do you mean handled? This function is managed within the two
products by those who manage them already. In other words this is fully
devolved to the AOO PMC to determine how this should be managed.


  2. Administering the Running Service
 That is, a server administrator for the service (not necessarily the host)
 Is this done?  Do we need a replacement or an expansion here?  What are 
 prerequisite qualifications for being able to do this.


Again this is down to the PMC to determine how to best do this.  Right
now Infra provide a number of VMs for AOO to run the service on. This is
mostly due to significant historical inertia when AOO first joined the
ASF, but also because it is what the PMC wanted to make their lives
easier. 

If you want these to be come more managed by Infra then a significant
number of changes would need to be made to make this happen.  Not least
of which is moving the system into Puppet. This is a non-trivial piece
of work which I'd estimate would take a member of paid staff at least
4-6 weeks to complete (minimum). 


 
  3. Administrating the Server that hosts the Service
 I assume this is where one deals with Ubuntu upgrades and such, whether 
 the server is real or virtual.
 Is this provided by the project?  Do we need a replacement/expansion here 
 from within the project?  Again, what are prerequisite qualifications?


Again, due to historical inertia and what I suspect is fear of letting
go in the past (perhaps even now in the present) this element was
handled at the PMC's discretion - with the caveat that Infra would force
an update where required (say SSL vulnerability etc), or if the PMC did
not do it itself the service would be shutdown and the instance shutdown
until such time that the problem had been resolved. 

Right now, I do not believe that these instances are being properly
maintained, and are in need of significant TLC to make them tick along
nicely once more. However, owing to the obscenely difficlut (and in my
opinion frankly ridiculous) setup of the services this is near
impossible to do well. 


  4. I assume hardware IT support is not the business of the project, and 
 changing boxes is a different deal.  Yes?
 

Correct, the PMC is provided with a number of virtual machines (not
native hardware, just to avoid any confusion).  If you need to move (and
frankly I would push for this very hard) we would need to stand up the
new instances for you, based on an open discussion of your requirements.

Infra are responsible for making sure that the instances are up, and
that the hardware they run is available. 



 I suspect this is known.  I don't know if the necessary information is 
 anywhere in project materials (haven't looked). 
 
 This is an area of ignorance for me.  


I hope I have helped clarify somewhat. 


--

Many thanks,
Tony


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Re: Maintenance of AOO Wiki and Forum

2015-08-17 Thread Tony Stevenson 


On Fri, 14 Aug 2015, at 01:31 PM, jan i wrote:
 Hi.
 
 The AOO Forum vm could do with an upgrade to Ubuntu 14.04 and be defined
 in
 the new puppet structure. Defining it in the new puppet structure has the
 advantage that Infra can roll a new vm in case of problems, and thereby
 reducing downtime.
 
 The AOO Wiki vm is in strong need of a reconfiguration and update (Ubuntu
 14.04 see above). Currently there is a ATS running on the same vm in
 front
 of the mediawiki (django) application. The ATS veersion is no longer
 supported by the traffic server project. Running it on a separate vm (or
 even as the HTPPS proxy) has a lot of merit, but it has not been done.
 
 As I am reducing my engagement in the project, this might be a good time
 for a new maintainer to step up. The actual maintenance is  about 1 hour
 pr
 month.

Can I take this opportunity to remind the community that if this service
fails to be maintained appropriately it will be turned off, or made
unavailable by Infra until such time it is brought up to date and
managed. 

AIUI this was the agreement that we had with the project when it was
handed over to enable you to manage yourselves. 


Many thanks,

--
Tony



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QUESTIONS RE: Maintenance of AOO Wiki and Forum

2015-08-17 Thread Dennis E. Hamilton 
Thanks Tony, this reminds me of some questions that would help us understand 
what is involved.  These questions are anyone knowledgable of the current 
arrangements:

I see four levels of support to wikis and forums:

 1. User Account and Content Administration
I believe this is handed.  Does anyone believe it is not?

 2. Administering the Running Service
That is, a server administrator for the service (not necessarily the host)
Is this done?  Do we need a replacement or an expansion here?  What are 
prerequisite qualifications for being able to do this.

 3. Administrating the Server that hosts the Service
I assume this is where one deals with Ubuntu upgrades and such, whether the 
server is real or virtual.
Is this provided by the project?  Do we need a replacement/expansion here 
from within the project?  Again, what are prerequisite qualifications?

 4. I assume hardware IT support is not the business of the project, and 
changing boxes is a different deal.  Yes?

I suspect this is known.  I don't know if the necessary information is anywhere 
in project materials (haven't looked). 

This is an area of ignorance for me.  I am not raising my hand.  I just want to 
ensure that the necessary requirements are understood and we know what is and 
is not adequately covered. 

 - Dennis

-Original Message-
From: Tony Stevenson [mailto:t...@pc-tony.com] 
Sent: Monday, August 17, 2015 12:54
To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
Subject: Re: Maintenance of AOO Wiki and Forum



On Fri, 14 Aug 2015, at 01:31 PM, jan i wrote:
 Hi.
 
 The AOO Forum vm could do with an upgrade to Ubuntu 14.04 and be defined
 in
 the new puppet structure. Defining it in the new puppet structure has the
 advantage that Infra can roll a new vm in case of problems, and thereby
 reducing downtime.
 
 The AOO Wiki vm is in strong need of a reconfiguration and update (Ubuntu
 14.04 see above). Currently there is a ATS running on the same vm in
 front
 of the mediawiki (django) application. The ATS veersion is no longer
 supported by the traffic server project. Running it on a separate vm (or
 even as the HTPPS proxy) has a lot of merit, but it has not been done.
 
 As I am reducing my engagement in the project, this might be a good time
 for a new maintainer to step up. The actual maintenance is  about 1 hour
 pr
 month.

Can I take this opportunity to remind the community that if this service
fails to be maintained appropriately it will be turned off, or made
unavailable by Infra until such time it is brought up to date and
managed. 

AIUI this was the agreement that we had with the project when it was
handed over to enable you to manage yourselves. 


Many thanks,

--
Tony



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