Re: OpenOffice lost again 6000 users (was: Improved OOXML support?)
From: Jürgen Schmidt [mailto:jogischm...@gmail.com] I believe a decision like the one in Berlin is always political motivated. See for example the upcoming discussion about the same topic in Munich after changes in the administration. You're absolutely right, but what can we do about it? I know reactions of the OOo community to the former situation in Freiburg, and there were no optimal arguments. I think the key would be to get involved in politically motivated questions those companies in the public debate, which are sponsors and supporters of AOO. Why Companies? Because companies better understand the needs of business customers. Jörg - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: OpenOffice lost again 6000 users (was: Improved OOXML support?)
On 24/10/14 07:54, Jörg Schmidt wrote: Hello, From: Andreas Säger [mailto:saege...@t-online.de] Being a customer, I do see things differently. Every OOXML file is a vote against ODF. theoretically correct, but practically? One day in future LO will save ODF as a secondary option. Possible. But where is the problem? Either OOXML *is* ISO standard or is not ISO-standard. If the problem is however that MS is 'meddling' in the standard, then it is a political issue that requires policy responses - not a question of software development. Finally MS wins There is no tomorrow (or finally) for it - MS wins today. For example: http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/Berliner-Finanzaemter-wechseln-zurueck-auf-Microsoft-Office-2430961.html MS comes up with the next shit life is not a pony farm and competition is not a throw with cotton balls. It is about the competition and we have to face, and not whine. I believe a decision like the one in Berlin is always political motivated. See for example the upcoming discussion about the same topic in Munich after changes in the administration. Juergen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: OpenOffice lost again 6000 users (was: Improved OOXML support?)
Dňa 24.10.2014 o 09:59 Jürgen Schmidt napísal(a): On 24/10/14 07:54, Jörg Schmidt wrote: Hello, From: Andreas Säger [mailto:saege...@t-online.de] Being a customer, I do see things differently. Every OOXML file is a vote against ODF. theoretically correct, but practically? One day in future LO will save ODF as a secondary option. Possible. But where is the problem? Either OOXML *is* ISO standard or is not ISO-standard. If the problem is however that MS is 'meddling' in the standard, then it is a political issue that requires policy responses - not a question of software development. Finally MS wins There is no tomorrow (or finally) for it - MS wins today. For example: http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/Berliner-Finanzaemter-wechseln-zurueck-auf-Microsoft-Office-2430961.html MS comes up with the next shit life is not a pony farm and competition is not a throw with cotton balls. It is about the competition and we have to face, and not whine. I believe a decision like the one in Berlin is always political motivated. See for example the upcoming discussion about the same topic in Munich after changes in the administration. If you had elections in Berlin recently, that is it why ... Juergen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: OpenOffice lost again 6000 users (was: Improved OOXML support?)
Am 24.10.2014 um 09:59 schrieb Jürgen Schmidt: On 24/10/14 07:54, Jörg Schmidt wrote: Hello, For example: http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/Berliner-Finanzaemter-wechseln-zurueck-auf-Microsoft-Office-2430961.html I believe a decision like the one in Berlin is always political motivated. See for example the upcoming discussion about the same topic in Munich after changes in the administration. Juergen Hi, The article on heise.de says it all. They exchange data through office documents; and they don't want to fall behind ... whatever bleeding edge [contradiction in itself]. Oh, of course they need MS Office for security reasons ... WTF? A full featured OOXML suite exists. It costs some money and it should always be used when OOXML is required. Your business opportunities are the same as with ODF. Today virtually everybody writes filters and parsers for OOXML but not for ODF. If ODF were a lost case, both ODF suites would be lost anyway. Writing another full featured OOXML suite would be a hopeless undertaking because it is too much to implement differently in no time. Anything less than full featured would not be accepted, OOXML Strict neiter. Everything needs to be fully compatible and interoperable with MS products which implies tight integration into MS operation system and separation from other OSes. Even if such a product existed, Berlin authorities would still insist in MS products because Berlin is one of the most sleazy places in Germany. They don't care about money because political life in Berlin is a pony farm indeed. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: OpenOffice lost again 6000 users (was: Improved OOXML support?)
On Fri, Oct 24, 2014 at 1:54 AM, Jörg Schmidt joe...@j-m-schmidt.de wrote: Hello, From: Andreas Säger [mailto:saege...@t-online.de] Being a customer, I do see things differently. Every OOXML file is a vote against ODF. theoretically correct, but practically? One day in future LO will save ODF as a secondary option. Possible. But where is the problem? Either OOXML *is* ISO standard or is not ISO-standard. If the problem is however that MS is 'meddling' in the standard, then it is a political issue that requires policy responses - not a question of software development. Finally MS wins There is no tomorrow (or finally) for it - MS wins today. For example: http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/Berliner-Finanzaemter-wechseln-zurueck-auf-Microsoft-Office-2430961.html MS comes up with the next shit life is not a pony farm and competition is not a throw with cotton balls. It is about the competition and we have to face, and not whine. To put it in perspective, since your note was sent, 6 hours ago, we've had over 30,000 downloads of AOO. I think we need to consider that there are two broad groups of users: 1) Those who choose which suite to use. 2) Those who have no choice, because their employer decides for them, either directly, or via their selection of a Linux distribution. For those who have a choice I think we do very well, especially for those who also must pay themselves. But clearly selling to a corporation (or a government) is something else. In some cases a government has an internal champion who pushes adoption of open source. If he fails, he and the open source are gone. But even if he succeeds, he may later change jobs and his successor might have other ideas. I've seen this happen repeatedly in government with ODF adoption. What one energetic champion accomplishes is reversed by someone later. Regards, -Rob Greetings, Jörg - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: OpenOffice lost again 6000 users (was: Improved OOXML support?)
On 10/24/2014 01:54 AM, Jörg Schmidt wrote: But where is the problem? Either OOXML *is* ISO standard or is not ISO-standard. If the problem is however that MS is 'meddling' in the standard, then it is a political issue that requires policy responses - not a question of software development. I am not overly informed on this, but, I think that the primary complaint was that the OOXML ISO standard supports storing proprietary binary blobs that are not part of the standard as aprt of the document. -- Andrew Pitonyak My Macro Document: http://www.pitonyak.org/AndrewMacro.odt Info: http://www.pitonyak.org/oo.php - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
RE: OpenOffice lost again 6000 users (was: Improved OOXML support?)
orcnote below. -Original Message- From: Andrew Douglas Pitonyak [mailto:and...@pitonyak.org] Sent: Friday, October 24, 2014 06:18 To: dev@openoffice.apache.org Subject: Re: OpenOffice lost again 6000 users (was: Improved OOXML support?) On 10/24/2014 01:54 AM, Jörg Schmidt wrote: But where is the problem? Either OOXML *is* ISO standard or is not ISO-standard. If the problem is however that MS is 'meddling' in the standard, then it is a political issue that requires policy responses - not a question of software development. I am not overly informed on this, but, I think that the primary complaint was that the OOXML ISO standard supports storing proprietary binary blobs that are not part of the standard as aprt of the document. orcnote This was and is a red herring. The ODF specification is just as permissive in this regard. For example, there is no specification on the binary formats of images that are incorporated in ODF packages by our favorite ODF-supporting software. Also, the allowance of OLE objects opens a very wide door in ODF that is exploited by the prominent implementations. What would be more interesting is to see what either specification says about how such material is identified so implementations can determine what is present. It would also be interesting to know how well implementations identify what cases of this that are supported, somewhere that the information is readily available for the information of non-implementers. /orcnote -- Andrew Pitonyak My Macro Document: http://www.pitonyak.org/AndrewMacro.odt Info: http://www.pitonyak.org/oo.php - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: OpenOffice lost again 6000 users (was: Improved OOXML support?)
On 10/24/2014 11:42 AM, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote: orcnote below. -Original Message- From: Andrew Douglas Pitonyak [mailto:and...@pitonyak.org] Sent: Friday, October 24, 2014 06:18 To: dev@openoffice.apache.org Subject: Re: OpenOffice lost again 6000 users (was: Improved OOXML support?) On 10/24/2014 01:54 AM, Jörg Schmidt wrote: But where is the problem? Either OOXML *is* ISO standard or is not ISO-standard. If the problem is however that MS is 'meddling' in the standard, then it is a political issue that requires policy responses - not a question of software development. I am not overly informed on this, but, I think that the primary complaint was that the OOXML ISO standard supports storing proprietary binary blobs that are not part of the standard as aprt of the document. orcnote This was and is a red herring. The ODF specification is just as permissive in this regard. For example, there is no specification on the binary formats of images that are incorporated in ODF packages by our favorite ODF-supporting software. Also, the allowance of OLE objects opens a very wide door in ODF that is exploited by the prominent implementations. What would be more interesting is to see what either specification says about how such material is identified so implementations can determine what is present. It would also be interesting to know how well implementations identify what cases of this that are supported, somewhere that the information is readily available for the information of non-implementers. /orcnote More specifically, I was under the impression that you could include a binary blob of say a doc file. -- Andrew Pitonyak My Macro Document: http://www.pitonyak.org/AndrewMacro.odt Info: http://www.pitonyak.org/oo.php - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: OpenOffice lost again 6000 users (was: Improved OOXML support?)
orcnote below. -Original Message- From: Andrew Douglas Pitonyak [mailto:and...@pitonyak.org] Sent: Friday, October 24, 2014 17:27 To: dev@openoffice.apache.org Subject: Spam (9.566):Re: OpenOffice lost again 6000 users (was: Improved OOXML support?) On 10/24/2014 11:42 AM, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote: orcnote below. -Original Message- From: Andrew Douglas Pitonyak [mailto:and...@pitonyak.org] Sent: Friday, October 24, 2014 06:18 To: dev@openoffice.apache.org Subject: Re: OpenOffice lost again 6000 users (was: Improved OOXML support?) [ ... ] I am not overly informed on this, but, I think that the primary complaint was that the OOXML ISO standard supports storing proprietary binary blobs that are not part of the standard as aprt of the document. [ ... ] More specifically, I was under the impression that you could include a binary blob of say a doc file. orcnote More specifically, can you point me to an authoritative source For this claim? I don't want to take a search of the OOXML specification without some specific details. /orcnote -- Andrew Pitonyak My Macro Document: http://www.pitonyak.org/AndrewMacro.odt Info: http://www.pitonyak.org/oo.php - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: OpenOffice lost again 6000 users (was: Improved OOXML support?)
On 10/24/2014 08:50 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote: orcnote below. -Original Message- From: Andrew Douglas Pitonyak [mailto:and...@pitonyak.org] Sent: Friday, October 24, 2014 17:27 To: dev@openoffice.apache.org Subject: Spam (9.566):Re: OpenOffice lost again 6000 users (was: Improved OOXML support?) On 10/24/2014 11:42 AM, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote: orcnote below. -Original Message- From: Andrew Douglas Pitonyak [mailto:and...@pitonyak.org] Sent: Friday, October 24, 2014 06:18 To: dev@openoffice.apache.org Subject: Re: OpenOffice lost again 6000 users (was: Improved OOXML support?) [ ... ] I am not overly informed on this, but, I think that the primary complaint was that the OOXML ISO standard supports storing proprietary binary blobs that are not part of the standard as aprt of the document. [ ... ] More specifically, I was under the impression that you could include a binary blob of say a doc file. orcnote More specifically, can you point me to an authoritative source For this claim? I don't want to take a search of the OOXML specification without some specific details. /orcnote Well, there was a time that I spent many hours worrying about exactly what was in the standard. I had downloaded a bunch of files and spent time reading them and following the discussion. If you want authoritative documents, you can find them places such as here: http://www.iso.org/iso/iso_catalogue/catalogue_tc/catalogue_detail.htm?csnumber=51463 http://standards.iso.org/ittf/PubliclyAvailableStandards/index.html (search for 29500) http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/office/gg607163%28v=office.14%29.aspx#IIOXML_H2 But I don't think that is what you are asking... I think that you are asking either: Am I able to point you to a more authoritative source that says that people were concerned that the standard allowed embedding arbitrary MSO binary stuff into OOXML files? or Are there concerns well founded? Let me start by stating that my intent was to clarify their concerns. At this point I hardly care if their concerns are accurate and I have no desire to justify them or defend them. Why? Because I am just too busy to care about it. If I bang my head against the wall and take a stiff drink, I have vague recollections of an xlink attribute that may end up referencing a binary version of the document, which, as an end result, means that supporting OOXML implies that you also support all previous MSO document formats. I am unable without more study than I am willing to undertake to remember if that is all linked using OLE or something else. I only say this because I suspect that it is likely related to OLE, but I don't really remember anyone saying as much. I don't like that OOXML relies so heavily on embedding OLE objects (I think that you can do this sort of thing using ODF as well). Back when I was blowing hours trying to read through the standard (and yeah, I wasted probably even more time reading the ODF standard), I was struck by how poorly the behavior was defined for the spreadsheet portion. I remember, at the time, thinking that it was even worse than the original ODF stuff, which has been fully hammered out at this point. Perhaps this has been solved for OOXML as well by now, but I am surly not going to read that stuff again unless a really compelling reason arises (like a for pay gig, which I am not looking for, I lack the time). Note that I am exposed so often to OOXML, I should probably care more about this than I currently do. Now I can go back to trying to figure out how I can find Northern Spy apples in the middle of Ohio. -- Andrew Pitonyak My Macro Document: http://www.pitonyak.org/AndrewMacro.odt Info: http://www.pitonyak.org/oo.php - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: OpenOffice lost again 6000 users (was: Improved OOXML support?)
Do you know off hand if this is through OLE or some other mechanism? I have been handed a docx files with something embedded inside that prevents viewing because I do not happen to have that particular application installed on my computer. On 10/25/2014 12:50 AM, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote: To be clear, I can put a complete Word Document (as a binary blob) inside of an ODF Text document too. I just don't know if that particular avenue is what was taken as a smoking gun about OOXML or not. I can put a complete ODF Text document (as a binary blob) inside of an OOXML .docx too. The fact that this is possible is no blemish on either of the ODF and OOXML specifications. It is not something anyone makes ridiculous practice of. - Dennis -- Andrew Pitonyak My Macro Document: http://www.pitonyak.org/AndrewMacro.odt Info: http://www.pitonyak.org/oo.php - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
OpenOffice lost again 6000 users (was: Improved OOXML support?)
Hello, From: Andreas Säger [mailto:saege...@t-online.de] Being a customer, I do see things differently. Every OOXML file is a vote against ODF. theoretically correct, but practically? One day in future LO will save ODF as a secondary option. Possible. But where is the problem? Either OOXML *is* ISO standard or is not ISO-standard. If the problem is however that MS is 'meddling' in the standard, then it is a political issue that requires policy responses - not a question of software development. Finally MS wins There is no tomorrow (or finally) for it - MS wins today. For example: http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/Berliner-Finanzaemter-wechseln-zurueck-auf-Microsoft-Office-2430961.html MS comes up with the next shit life is not a pony farm and competition is not a throw with cotton balls. It is about the competition and we have to face, and not whine. Greetings, Jörg - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
