RE: [discussion] Documentation Contribution based or produced by LO? (was: How to join Docs team)
Two short additions. 1) When we revise existing documentation we must take into account their licenses. If someone thinks we can (and don't) change an existing license to Apache, they can do so themselves. On the other hand, if a license change is not possible, it is not for us either. 2. please note that prooo-box.org is a separate platform, just like ODF authors, and welcome the work of both or neither of them. greetings, Jörg - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
RE: [discussion] Documentation Contribution based or produced by LO? (was: How to join Docs team)
Hello, > -Original Message- > From: Dave Fisher [mailto:wave4d...@comcast.net] > Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2020 2:09 AM > To: dev@openoffice.apache.org > Subject: Re: [discussion] Documentation Contribution based or > produced by LO? (was: How to join Docs team) > I made a commit on the website that was valid, but he thought > it was a bad idea. So he reverted it instead of asking me. Well, it happened to me. Can you understand that I still think this is much less bad than the insults and lies from TDF/LO? > This was not proper. TBH I found him to be omnipresent and > while very helpful did not leave others enough room to grow > into also helpful. It was as if every fourth email was from > him. And then IBM pulled out and ... Rob slowly went away. This, however, is an interesting observation. I find it amazing that the PMC still insists on keeping these people in their ranks. Even though they are no longer doing anything for the project. Do you think that's right? My opinion is: IBM has done harm to the project by uncoordinatedly withdrawing its support. Specifically, this concerns the OOXML filters. > BTW we can now put the registered trademark (R) next to > Apache and OpenOffice. We had every right to it for > OpenOffice.org back at that time. It’s what I did. He had > incorrect fear that doing that was some type of major legal jeopardy. But why do we use these legal possibilities so little? Why, for example, do we not take legal action against fraudulent sites such as openoffice.de and dispute their rights? > > > > I don't understand what you mean. What do you think I want? > > > > I can say what I want myself: > > I want AOO (i mean the project and the community) to be > treated with respect. Respect, however, is a question of > joint discussion and not of one-sided subjugation. > > We all want that. All right, if we agree on this. greetings, Jörg - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: [discussion] Documentation Contribution based or produced by LO? (was: How to join Docs team)
Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 1, 2020, at 1:21 PM, Jörg Schmidt wrote: > > >> >> -Original Message- >> From: Dave Fisher [mailto:w...@apache.org] >> Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2020 10:05 PM >> To: dev >> Subject: Re: [discussion] Documentation Contribution based or >> produced by LO? (was: How to join Docs team) > >> Rob Weir never apologized to me. There are people in this >> world who never, ever admit to any errors. >> >> I’m not one of them. >> >> Apologies. While I agree with your sentiment it will not lead >> to what you want if we keep bringing this issue up. > > What did Rob have to apologize for? I don't know anything he has to apologize > for. I made a commit on the website that was valid, but he thought it was a bad idea. So he reverted it instead of asking me. This was not proper. TBH I found him to be omnipresent and while very helpful did not leave others enough room to grow into also helpful. It was as if every fourth email was from him. And then IBM pulled out and ... Rob slowly went away. BTW we can now put the registered trademark (R) next to Apache and OpenOffice. We had every right to it for OpenOffice.org back at that time. It’s what I did. He had incorrect fear that doing that was some type of major legal jeopardy. > > I don't understand what you mean. What do you think I want? > > I can say what I want myself: > I want AOO (i mean the project and the community) to be treated with respect. > Respect, however, is a question of joint discussion and not of one-sided > subjugation. We all want that. We just disagree about how that may happen. Best, Dave > > > greetings, > Jörg > > > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
RE: [discussion] Documentation Contribution based or produced by LO? (was: How to join Docs team)
Moin, In the past, the Prooo-Box was informed about the updating and revision of the German documentation. The only response was to state that it did not comply with the Apache license. If this is the main concern, one should not be surprised that motivation knows no bounds. Some more information about our work: The English documentation for version 3.3 serves as a basis. In this documentation some functions are described incorrectly or there are descriptions are missing. This means that all functionalities must be tested or reproduced for the new documentation will be. Alternative paths are also offered for faulty functions. Jan - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
RE: [discussion] Documentation Contribution based or produced by LO? (was: How to join Docs team)
> -Original Message- > From: Dave Fisher [mailto:w...@apache.org] > Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2020 10:05 PM > To: dev > Subject: Re: [discussion] Documentation Contribution based or > produced by LO? (was: How to join Docs team) > Rob Weir never apologized to me. There are people in this > world who never, ever admit to any errors. > > I’m not one of them. > > Apologies. While I agree with your sentiment it will not lead > to what you want if we keep bringing this issue up. What did Rob have to apologize for? I don't know anything he has to apologize for. I don't understand what you mean. What do you think I want? I can say what I want myself: I want AOO (i mean the project and the community) to be treated with respect. Respect, however, is a question of joint discussion and not of one-sided subjugation. greetings, Jörg - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: [discussion] Documentation Contribution based or produced by LO? (was: How to join Docs team)
> On Apr 1, 2020, at 12:55 PM, Jörg Schmidt wrote: > > Hello, > >> -Original Message- >> From: Dave Fisher [mailto:w...@apache.org] >> Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2020 8:30 PM >> To: dev >> Subject: Re: [discussion] Documentation Contribution based or >> produced by LO? (was: How to join Docs team) >> >> >> >>> On Apr 1, 2020, at 11:11 AM, BMCS wrote: >>> >>> Jörg, your strident proclamations make enemies of those who would be >>> friends of AOO. Many of us, Peter and myself included, >> understand that >>> there can be no reunification, but we seek for cooperation >> between the >>> projects whenever possible. There is no benefit or gain in >> continually >>> resurrecting past animosities and dead issues. >> >> +1. Let’s try to keep the past animosity in the now distant >> past as that is what to my recollection drove Jean to move >> elsewhere during the initial incubation of OpenOffice.org at >> the ASF. The flames on dev@ at that time we equivalent to >> recent wildfires in California and Australia. > > Lies and slander of the past need an apology, only then can they be forgotten. Rob Weir never apologized to me. There are people in this world who never, ever admit to any errors. I’m not one of them. Apologies. While I agree with your sentiment it will not lead to what you want if we keep bringing this issue up. Regards, Dave > > > Jörg > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
RE: [discussion] Documentation Contribution based or produced by LO? (was: How to join Docs team)
Hello, > -Original Message- > From: Dave Fisher [mailto:w...@apache.org] > Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2020 8:30 PM > To: dev > Subject: Re: [discussion] Documentation Contribution based or > produced by LO? (was: How to join Docs team) > > > > > On Apr 1, 2020, at 11:11 AM, BMCS wrote: > > > > Jörg, your strident proclamations make enemies of those who would be > > friends of AOO. Many of us, Peter and myself included, > understand that > > there can be no reunification, but we seek for cooperation > between the > > projects whenever possible. There is no benefit or gain in > continually > > resurrecting past animosities and dead issues. > > +1. Let’s try to keep the past animosity in the now distant > past as that is what to my recollection drove Jean to move > elsewhere during the initial incubation of OpenOffice.org at > the ASF. The flames on dev@ at that time we equivalent to > recent wildfires in California and Australia. Lies and slander of the past need an apology, only then can they be forgotten. Jörg - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
RE: [discussion] Documentation Contribution based or produced by LO? (was: How to join Docs team)
Hello, > -Original Message- > From: BMCS [mailto:b...@apache.org] > Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2020 8:12 PM > To: dev@openoffice.apache.org > Subject: Re: [discussion] Documentation Contribution based or > produced by LO? (was: How to join Docs team) > The potential new AOO documentation contributor did NOT say that his > contribution would be a copy of the LO Base documentation. yes, you're right. > I suspected > that he might not be aware of "The Apache Way", so I indicated that it > would be advisable to for him to make full disclosure of his > work on the > LO documentation to the AOO project before moving forward. My comment meant something different, namely that the documentation for OOo 3.3.0 is closer to AOO 4.1.7 than any current LO documentation. It is therefore a question of pure expediency to rely on the old OOo documentation. > > We, the ProOO-Box team, are working on the German-language > documentation for AOO, using the English originals of OOo 3.3 > as a basis, which has proven to be very useful. > > That is good news, but how does this help the AOO > Documentation This helps in so far as this documentation is of course also available for use by AOO without restriction. If this were not the case, we would not have noted on the AOO website that we are taking care of the documentation. It is due to the practical situation that there are no uploads on the AOO website yet. This is the concrete situation, but generally (imho): Shouldn't we be grateful for ANY help for AOO? No matter who it comes from? Why do we argue about formalities in times where we lack volunteers? > and why > haven't you Jörg spoken up about this before now? I have, of course, talked about it (years ago), or do you think I work in secret? > > We use the Apache way and this is meritocratic, as we have > been told in other cases over and over again! > What has this to do with a potential new AOO documentation contributor > offering his services. Very simple: here they try to organize the writing of the documentation centrally and this confuses me because all proposals I made in the past have been rejected with reference to the meritocratic approach. I myself am very much in agreement with (centralised) organisation, but this must not lead to certain content issues being promoted and other content issues being hindered. > > It may not be finished yet, but we've been working on the > documentation all the time, where no one else was doing it, > and we've been working as much as we could. > I repeat my previous question: How does this help the AOO > Documentation > and why haven't you Jörg spoken up about this before now? This helps the project, because it makes current (4.x) documentation, also for the project, available in German language. > > So it's not true that nobody would work on the documentation. > > Jörg, please quote the words I wrote, not your distorted > interpretation. Excuse me, but when I refer to Peter's statement, I cannot quote you (Dave). > In other words, VERY LITTLE new or updated material has been added to > the main AOO documentation website pages. Since the main AOO > website is > in English that statement can be taken to mean the English > documentation. > > > greetings, > > Jörg > > Jörg, your strident proclamations make enemies of those who would be > friends of AOO. Many of us, Peter and myself included, understand that > there can be no reunification, but we seek for cooperation between the > projects whenever possible. There is no benefit or gain in continually > resurrecting past animosities and dead issues. I'm for collaboration, but for working together as equals and I'm against any claim of leadership from LO in this collaboration. Several times I was allowed to experience that members of the AOO-community reached out their hand, but LO did not reply. Michael for example speaks of "our friends at LO", but I never read a public statement from the LO-community that spoke of "our friends at AOO". Such things make me wonder. greetings, Jörg - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: [discussion] Documentation Contribution based or produced by LO? (was: How to join Docs team)
> On Apr 1, 2020, at 11:11 AM, BMCS wrote: > > Jörg, your strident proclamations make enemies of those who would be > friends of AOO. Many of us, Peter and myself included, understand that > there can be no reunification, but we seek for cooperation between the > projects whenever possible. There is no benefit or gain in continually > resurrecting past animosities and dead issues. +1. Let’s try to keep the past animosity in the now distant past as that is what to my recollection drove Jean to move elsewhere during the initial incubation of OpenOffice.org at the ASF. The flames on dev@ at that time we equivalent to recent wildfires in California and Australia. Anyone who contributes in any manner to the whole ODF ecosystem should be welcome within the license constraints. If there is a better place for documentation that must be hosted externally to the ASF by a community member then that is fine with me. Regards, Dave
Re: [discussion] Documentation Contribution based or produced by LO? (was: How to join Docs team)
On 01/04/2020 17:31, Jörg Schmidt wrote: > Hello, > >> -Original Message- >> From: Peter Kovacs [mailto:leg...@posteo.de] >> Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2020 4:24 PM >> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org >> Subject: [discussion] Documentation Contribution based or >> produced by LO? (was: How to join Docs team) >> >> I can not state the history as Dave said. Thanks for your view. >> >> >but you should be aware that there are members of of the >> > Apache OpenOffice who are vehemently opposed to anything and >> everything > related or connected to the TDF and LO. >> >> I have no issues if the work is based on top of LO >> Documentary efforts. > I do, because this documentation is far too far away from the needs of AOO. The potential new AOO documentation contributor did NOT say that his contribution would be a copy of the LO Base documentation. I suspected that he might not be aware of "The Apache Way", so I indicated that it would be advisable to for him to make full disclosure of his work on the LO documentation to the AOO project before moving forward. > We, the ProOO-Box team, are working on the German-language documentation for > AOO, using the English originals of OOo 3.3 as a basis, which has proven to > be very useful. That is good news, but how does this help the AOO Documentation and why haven't you Jörg spoken up about this before now? > We use the Apache way and this is meritocratic, as we have been told in other > cases over and over again! What has this to do with a potential new AOO documentation contributor offering his services. > It may not be finished yet, but we've been working on the documentation all > the time, where no one else was doing it, and we've been working as much as > we could. I repeat my previous question: How does this help the AOO Documentation and why haven't you Jörg spoken up about this before now? > So it's not true that nobody would work on the documentation. Jörg, please quote the words I wrote, not your distorted interpretation. When I choose to write I write FACTS and I did NOT say "nobody would work on the documentation", I wrote: Over the years Keith N. McKenna has made many valiant attempts to maintain the project's documentation and enlist new contributors, but the regrettable situation is that very little new or updated AOO documentation has been written for a very long time. In other words, VERY LITTLE new or updated material has been added to the main AOO documentation website pages. Since the main AOO website is in English that statement can be taken to mean the English documentation. > greetings, > Jörg Jörg, your strident proclamations make enemies of those who would be friends of AOO. Many of us, Peter and myself included, understand that there can be no reunification, but we seek for cooperation between the projects whenever possible. There is no benefit or gain in continually resurrecting past animosities and dead issues. Dave - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
RE: [discussion] Documentation Contribution based or produced by LO? (was: How to join Docs team)
Hello, > -Original Message- > From: Peter Kovacs [mailto:leg...@posteo.de] > Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2020 4:24 PM > To: dev@openoffice.apache.org > Subject: [discussion] Documentation Contribution based or > produced by LO? (was: How to join Docs team) > > I can not state the history as Dave said. Thanks for your view. > > >but you should be aware that there are members of of the > > Apache OpenOffice who are vehemently opposed to anything and > everything > related or connected to the TDF and LO. > > I have no issues if the work is based on top of LO > Documentary efforts. I do, because this documentation is far too far away from the needs of AOO. We, the ProOO-Box team, are working on the German-language documentation for AOO, using the English originals of OOo 3.3 as a basis, which has proven to be very useful. We use the Apache way and this is meritocratic, as we have been told in other cases over and over again! It may not be finished yet, but we've been working on the documentation all the time, where no one else was doing it, and we've been working as much as we could. So it's not true that nobody would work on the documentation. greetings, Jörg - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
