What I miss a bit at the project
Hi all At the old OpenOffice project we have had different IRC Channels. Same were more active then others, but we have had a load more activity then now. The fact, that not a load Apache Projects use IRC does not mean that we are not allowed to use IRC. We are not allowed to make dessisions at the IRC, because Apache has clear rouls for dessicion making. IRC has many avantage over a ML. You can discouss problemes life. You have often much faster a answare. And at same problems. work togeter is more afective and make more. I realy would like a more active IRC Channel. I propose #dev.openoffice.org at freenode as our main channel. I encourage you to jump in too. Greetings Raphael - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: What I miss a bit at the project
Hm. Why use #openoffice.org when, say, #openoffice or the like, would do? louis On 20 March 2013 09:28, Raphael Bircher r.birc...@gmx.ch wrote: Hi all At the old OpenOffice project we have had different IRC Channels. Same were more active then others, but we have had a load more activity then now. The fact, that not a load Apache Projects use IRC does not mean that we are not allowed to use IRC. We are not allowed to make dessisions at the IRC, because Apache has clear rouls for dessicion making. IRC has many avantage over a ML. You can discouss problemes life. You have often much faster a answare. And at same problems. work togeter is more afective and make more. I realy would like a more active IRC Channel. I propose #dev.openoffice.org at freenode as our main channel. I encourage you to jump in too. Greetings Raphael - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: What I miss a bit at the project
Hi Rafael, as you know we had several channels on freenode.net #openoffice.org (user channel) #dev.openoffice.org (developer channel) #qa.openoffice.org (qa channel) +1 to use IRC and not to use tools like Google+ or Facebook or the like... I realy would like a more active IRC Channel. I propose #dev.openoffice.org at freenode as our main channel. I encourage you to jump in too. Kind regards, Joost - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: What I miss a bit at the project
On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 9:28 AM, Raphael Bircher r.birc...@gmx.ch wrote: Hi all At the old OpenOffice project we have had different IRC Channels. Same were more active then others, but we have had a load more activity then now. The fact, that not a load Apache Projects use IRC does not mean that we are not allowed to use IRC. We are not allowed to make dessisions at the IRC, because Apache has clear rouls for dessicion making. IRC has many avantage over a ML. You can discouss problemes life. You have often much faster a answare. And at same problems. work togeter is more afective and make more. I realy would like a more active IRC Channel. I propose #dev.openoffice.org at freenode as our main channel. I encourage you to jump in too. It would be wonderful if someone could update this wiki page: http://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/IRC_Communication And also maybe put a link to it on the website someplace, maybe even a link from the navigator on http://openoffice.apache.org, next to mailing lists. -Rob Greetings Raphael - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: What I miss a bit at the project
IRC is great and all, and I'm all for having as many channels as people feel a need for. Just keep in mind that the ASF approach to projects is to ensure that decision making is done in public and very openly. I think the implication of that is that most discussion that leads directly to a decision, and definitely any actual decision making, should happen on the mailing list(s). That's the way I've always understood it anyway. Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong. Phil On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 8:28 AM, Raphael Bircher r.birc...@gmx.ch wrote: Hi all At the old OpenOffice project we have had different IRC Channels. Same were more active then others, but we have had a load more activity then now. The fact, that not a load Apache Projects use IRC does not mean that we are not allowed to use IRC. We are not allowed to make dessisions at the IRC, because Apache has clear rouls for dessicion making. IRC has many avantage over a ML. You can discouss problemes life. You have often much faster a answare. And at same problems. work togeter is more afective and make more. I realy would like a more active IRC Channel. I propose #dev.openoffice.org at freenode as our main channel. I encourage you to jump in too. Greetings Raphael - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: What I miss a bit at the project
On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 11:19 AM, Phillip Rhodes motley.crue@gmail.com wrote: IRC is great and all, and I'm all for having as many channels as people feel a need for. Just keep in mind that the ASF approach to projects is to ensure that decision making is done in public and very openly. I think the implication of that is that most discussion that leads directly to a decision, and definitely any actual decision making, should happen on the mailing list(s). That's the way I've always understood it anyway. Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong. That's the general idea. But not everything needs discussion. JFDI has a place as well. For example, if the build broke and the developers meet in IRC to figure out how to fix it, I'd expect them to just JFDI. No need to report back to the dev list or discuss further or to ask permission. The commit logs will record what was done. But in general, decisions are not urgent. They don't need to be made at short notice. So the mailing list is more respectful of participation of project members in many time zones, including many native languages, and individuals who might need to check a dictionary occasionally to understand what is said. The mailing list is inclusive. Real-time meetings, in person, via phone, Google Hangouts, IRC, etc., are tied to a specific time, and so they are less inclusive. But they still have a role to play, I think. -Rob Phil On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 8:28 AM, Raphael Bircher r.birc...@gmx.ch wrote: Hi all At the old OpenOffice project we have had different IRC Channels. Same were more active then others, but we have had a load more activity then now. The fact, that not a load Apache Projects use IRC does not mean that we are not allowed to use IRC. We are not allowed to make dessisions at the IRC, because Apache has clear rouls for dessicion making. IRC has many avantage over a ML. You can discouss problemes life. You have often much faster a answare. And at same problems. work togeter is more afective and make more. I realy would like a more active IRC Channel. I propose #dev.openoffice.org at freenode as our main channel. I encourage you to jump in too. Greetings Raphael - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: What I miss a bit at the project
Well said, Rob. I should have been more explicit in explaining that when I say decision making I mean big decisions for some value of big. It's a little bit subjective and will always be a judgment call, but I think your example is perfect. How to fix the broken build can absolutely be done on IRC. Deciding to rewrite Calc in Ada, OTOH would not be something you would want to do on IRC. Personally I'm looking forward to a move active IRC presence for AOO people, as I'm a big IRC fan. I just want to make sure we stay aligned with the Apache Way. Phil On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 10:41 AM, Rob Weir robw...@apache.org wrote: On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 11:19 AM, Phillip Rhodes motley.crue@gmail.com wrote: IRC is great and all, and I'm all for having as many channels as people feel a need for. Just keep in mind that the ASF approach to projects is to ensure that decision making is done in public and very openly. I think the implication of that is that most discussion that leads directly to a decision, and definitely any actual decision making, should happen on the mailing list(s). That's the way I've always understood it anyway. Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong. That's the general idea. But not everything needs discussion. JFDI has a place as well. For example, if the build broke and the developers meet in IRC to figure out how to fix it, I'd expect them to just JFDI. No need to report back to the dev list or discuss further or to ask permission. The commit logs will record what was done. But in general, decisions are not urgent. They don't need to be made at short notice. So the mailing list is more respectful of participation of project members in many time zones, including many native languages, and individuals who might need to check a dictionary occasionally to understand what is said. The mailing list is inclusive. Real-time meetings, in person, via phone, Google Hangouts, IRC, etc., are tied to a specific time, and so they are less inclusive. But they still have a role to play, I think. -Rob Phil On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 8:28 AM, Raphael Bircher r.birc...@gmx.ch wrote: Hi all At the old OpenOffice project we have had different IRC Channels. Same were more active then others, but we have had a load more activity then now. The fact, that not a load Apache Projects use IRC does not mean that we are not allowed to use IRC. We are not allowed to make dessisions at the IRC, because Apache has clear rouls for dessicion making. IRC has many avantage over a ML. You can discouss problemes life. You have often much faster a answare. And at same problems. work togeter is more afective and make more. I realy would like a more active IRC Channel. I propose #dev.openoffice.org at freenode as our main channel. I encourage you to jump in too. Greetings Raphael - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
RE: What I miss a bit at the project
+1 There's also the problem of synchronicity. Living in gmt-0800 (now gmt-0700 until the end of October), it is very difficult to find an useful window. And if I am not present, I am not aware and have no available record. The Apach lists and procedures recognize the need for asynchronous activity and allowing for the different times and availabilities of participants. I personally do not use IRC much, and even in conference calls I avoid instant design as much as possible. That's my personal dynamic for managing multiple activities. I gather that there are folks who find IRC very useful. My closest to that is some regular, time-blocked Google+ Hangout meetings. They have the advantage of audio (plus video), even though one can use chat in a sidebar. I am not objecting to IRC. But it is not a panacea. - Dennis -Original Message- From: Phillip Rhodes [mailto:motley.crue@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2013 08:19 To: dev@openoffice.apache.org Subject: Re: What I miss a bit at the project IRC is great and all, and I'm all for having as many channels as people feel a need for. Just keep in mind that the ASF approach to projects is to ensure that decision making is done in public and very openly. I think the implication of that is that most discussion that leads directly to a decision, and definitely any actual decision making, should happen on the mailing list(s). That's the way I've always understood it anyway. Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong. Phil On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 8:28 AM, Raphael Bircher r.birc...@gmx.ch wrote: Hi all At the old OpenOffice project we have had different IRC Channels. Same were more active then others, but we have had a load more activity then now. The fact, that not a load Apache Projects use IRC does not mean that we are not allowed to use IRC. We are not allowed to make dessisions at the IRC, because Apache has clear rouls for dessicion making. IRC has many avantage over a ML. You can discouss problemes life. You have often much faster a answare. And at same problems. work togeter is more afective and make more. I realy would like a more active IRC Channel. I propose #dev.openoffice.org at freenode as our main channel. I encourage you to jump in too. Greetings Raphael - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: What I miss a bit at the project
The lack of available record thing can be addressed - to some extent - by logging the channel traffic and posting the log somewhere where it will be publicly available. Offhand, I'd say this is something we should do, if we aren't already, to the extent that we use IRC. Phil On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 11:11 AM, Dennis E. Hamilton dennis.hamil...@acm.org wrote: +1 There's also the problem of synchronicity. Living in gmt-0800 (now gmt-0700 until the end of October), it is very difficult to find an useful window. And if I am not present, I am not aware and have no available record. The Apach lists and procedures recognize the need for asynchronous activity and allowing for the different times and availabilities of participants. I personally do not use IRC much, and even in conference calls I avoid instant design as much as possible. That's my personal dynamic for managing multiple activities. I gather that there are folks who find IRC very useful. My closest to that is some regular, time-blocked Google+ Hangout meetings. They have the advantage of audio (plus video), even though one can use chat in a sidebar. I am not objecting to IRC. But it is not a panacea. - Dennis -Original Message- From: Phillip Rhodes [mailto:motley.crue@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2013 08:19 To: dev@openoffice.apache.org Subject: Re: What I miss a bit at the project IRC is great and all, and I'm all for having as many channels as people feel a need for. Just keep in mind that the ASF approach to projects is to ensure that decision making is done in public and very openly. I think the implication of that is that most discussion that leads directly to a decision, and definitely any actual decision making, should happen on the mailing list(s). That's the way I've always understood it anyway. Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong. Phil On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 8:28 AM, Raphael Bircher r.birc...@gmx.ch wrote: Hi all At the old OpenOffice project we have had different IRC Channels. Same were more active then others, but we have had a load more activity then now. The fact, that not a load Apache Projects use IRC does not mean that we are not allowed to use IRC. We are not allowed to make dessisions at the IRC, because Apache has clear rouls for dessicion making. IRC has many avantage over a ML. You can discouss problemes life. You have often much faster a answare. And at same problems. work togeter is more afective and make more. I realy would like a more active IRC Channel. I propose #dev.openoffice.org at freenode as our main channel. I encourage you to jump in too. Greetings Raphael - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: What I miss a bit at the project
Hi Phil Am 20.03.13 16:19, schrieb Phillip Rhodes: IRC is great and all, and I'm all for having as many channels as people feel a need for. Just keep in mind that the ASF approach to projects is to ensure that decision making is done in public and very openly. I think the implication of that is that most discussion that leads directly to a decision, and definitely any actual decision making, should happen on the mailing list(s). I don't talk about using the IRC as a tool to have meetings to make decisions. I talk about daily discussion like questions from newbies and questions about the work. E.g: I don't understand what user XY means with comment Z in issue X, can samone help me? Or I don't know why this is in the Code, has sameone a answare? This has nothing to do with decision making neiter with a discoussion about decision making. For that i want to use IRC channels. But this works only if people participate. That's the way I've always understood it anyway. Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong. Phil On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 8:28 AM, Raphael Bircher r.birc...@gmx.ch wrote: Hi all At the old OpenOffice project we have had different IRC Channels. Same were more active then others, but we have had a load more activity then now. The fact, that not a load Apache Projects use IRC does not mean that we are not allowed to use IRC. We are not allowed to make dessisions at the IRC, because Apache has clear rouls for dessicion making. IRC has many avantage over a ML. You can discouss problemes life. You have often much faster a answare. And at same problems. work togeter is more afective and make more. I realy would like a more active IRC Channel. I propose #dev.openoffice.org at freenode as our main channel. I encourage you to jump in too. Greetings Raphael Greetings Raphael - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
