Re: volunteer activity tracking
On 24.11.2019 13:19, Jörg Schmidt wrote: > > >> -Original Message- >> From: Peter Kovacs [mailto:pe...@apache.org] >> Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2019 11:28 AM >> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org >> Subject: Re: volunteer activity tracking >> >> >> On 24.11.19 09:30, Jörg Schmidt wrote: >>>> Normally we discuss to get a consensus. Crucial votes are >>>> out-of-favour. >>>> This is the only way to keep the community together. >>> No, that is only a way of unification. >> But if there is no unification, voices have not been taken >> sufficiently >> into account. >> >> If this happens to often, people will go away, and the community is >> diminished. > That's not gonna happen. That's happened. > > Lots and lots of former volunteers left the OpenOffice project and either > went to LO or turned away from free software. > Doesn't it show the weakness of our project that we couldn't even stand up to > a newcomer like LO? (Nothing general against LO, only it is not our project. > Our task is to ensure the success of AOO.) > > The example of the ProOO-Box shows how wrong the procedure is in some cases. > With OOo, the ProOO box was part of the project, with AOO it was suddenly no > longer part of the project, but was declared a "third party" without any > substantial reason. > At the persistent request of the volunteers, it was explained that the ProOO > box could apply as a separate incubator project. > Does nobody understand how absurd this proposal was? Does no one understand > how it offended volunteers? I don't know anything about this story, but in general terms: as far as I'm aware, a software grant (or other kind of IP contribution) can go directly to an existing PMC without having to pass through the Incubator. If anyone said otherwise, they were simply wrong. -- Brane - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
RE: volunteer activity tracking
> -Original Message- > From: Peter Kovacs [mailto:pe...@apache.org] > Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2019 11:28 AM > To: dev@openoffice.apache.org > Subject: Re: volunteer activity tracking > > > On 24.11.19 09:30, Jörg Schmidt wrote: > >> Normally we discuss to get a consensus. Crucial votes are > >> out-of-favour. > >> This is the only way to keep the community together. > > No, that is only a way of unification. > > But if there is no unification, voices have not been taken > sufficiently > into account. > > If this happens to often, people will go away, and the community is > diminished. That's not gonna happen. That's happened. Lots and lots of former volunteers left the OpenOffice project and either went to LO or turned away from free software. Doesn't it show the weakness of our project that we couldn't even stand up to a newcomer like LO? (Nothing general against LO, only it is not our project. Our task is to ensure the success of AOO.) The example of the ProOO-Box shows how wrong the procedure is in some cases. With OOo, the ProOO box was part of the project, with AOO it was suddenly no longer part of the project, but was declared a "third party" without any substantial reason. At the persistent request of the volunteers, it was explained that the ProOO box could apply as a separate incubator project. Does nobody understand how absurd this proposal was? Does no one understand how it offended volunteers? Of course my answer to Michael is not about the dissent being better, but just about the fact that we have to be willing to learn from our own mistakes and to implement improvements. greetings, Jörg - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: volunteer activity tracking (was: Ariel is back in our PMC and developer circle)
On 24.11.19 09:44, Jörg Schmidt wrote: >>> Thank you for this (imho) very important info. Not good >> that the community was not informed about it, but this info >> was apparently only known internally. >> >> It was informed and the discussion was started on September >> 1, 2016. [1] >> >> I am proud of the community’s progress since then. > Maybe there are some things to be proud of, only the years go by and AOO is > only a shadow compared to the previous OOo. > > We haven't managed to become so attractive that more programmers, more > volunteers overall, find their way into the project. I'm afraid that's also a > consequence of bad project management. > A self-critical analysis and discussion could improve that, not the kind of > talk I unfortunately just read from Michael. I am open on any suggestion to improve recruitment. My main problem is that people showing up want a quick easy access and clear understamble tasks what to do. I have no open PMC actions that would help me to improve current situation. I am listening to your suggestions! I have not seen any so far, but it is never to late to start. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: volunteer activity tracking
On 24.11.19 09:30, Jörg Schmidt wrote: >> Normally we discuss to get a consensus. Crucial votes are >> out-of-favour. >> This is the only way to keep the community together. > No, that is only a way of unification. But if there is no unification, voices have not been taken sufficiently into account. If this happens to often, people will go away, and the community is diminished. A concent is that you accept the proposed resolution, even if you do not agree with the others opinion on the vote. A resolution is always an action, or a by-rule or a goal to achieve. I do not see how your argument is not supporting Michaels argument. So imho you argument needs to be: Yes, that is a way of unification. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
RE: volunteer activity tracking
> -Original Message- > From: Branko Čibej [mailto:br...@apache.org] > Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2019 9:31 PM > To: dev@openoffice.apache.org > Subject: Re: volunteer activity tracking > I'm not sure what you mean by "legally acquired merit." I mean that community members became PMC members in the way the Apache rules dictate. > > Or are members of the PMC not allowed to have different > opinions when voting? > > > They surely are, but a healthy community will reach a > consensus through > discussion, not by majority fiat through a vote. This is actually a > crucial point and what the ASF is all about: and, if you find yourself > making decisions by voting, rather than the vote being just a way to > formally confirm prior consensus, then something has gone very wrong. I think so as much as you do. Unfortunately, I also feel that some project or PMC members (not all) are not welcome to make critical remarks. So far, I still hope I'm wrong. > Different opinions /should/ be ironed out through discussion. > If they're > not, eventually the community will break up. If the community finds > itself unable to form consensus about some topic, it's better to > postpone any decision, or explore alternatives. > > > > And if they may, may they not have different opinions in > the future than at the time when they became a PMC member? > > > Of course they may. That's a normal consequence of learning, > after all. Thank you. It's good to hear that there are people who see it that way. greetings, Jörg - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
RE: volunteer activity tracking (was: Ariel is back in our PMC and developer circle)
> -Original Message- > From: Dave Fisher [mailto:w...@apache.org] > Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2019 7:42 PM > To: dev@openoffice.apache.org > Subject: Re: volunteer activity tracking (was: Ariel is back > in our PMC and developer circle) > > > > > On Nov 21, 2019, at 4:11 AM, Jörg Schmidt > wrote: > > Thank you for this (imho) very important info. Not good > that the community was not informed about it, but this info > was apparently only known internally. > > It was informed and the discussion was started on September > 1, 2016. [1] > > I am proud of the community’s progress since then. Maybe there are some things to be proud of, only the years go by and AOO is only a shadow compared to the previous OOo. We haven't managed to become so attractive that more programmers, more volunteers overall, find their way into the project. I'm afraid that's also a consequence of bad project management. A self-critical analysis and discussion could improve that, not the kind of talk I unfortunately just read from Michael. greetings, Jörg - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
RE: volunteer activity tracking
> From: Dr. Michael Stehmann [mailto:anw...@rechtsanwalt-stehmann.de] > Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2019 3:40 PM > To: dev@openoffice.apache.org > Subject: Re: volunteer activity tracking > > Hello, > > Am 21.11.19 um 14:42 schrieb Jörg Schmidt: > > > Or are members of the PMC not allowed to have different > opinions when voting? And if they may, may they not have > different opinions in the future than at the time when they > became a PMC member? > > > > Normally we discuss to get a consensus. Crucial votes are > out-of-favour. > This is the only way to keep the community together. No, that is only a way of unification. Jörg - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: volunteer activity tracking (was: Ariel is back in our PMC and developer circle)
> On Nov 21, 2019, at 1:41 PM, Dave Fisher wrote: > > I am proud of the community’s progress since then. > FWIW, so am I. I think it was Good that we (the entire AOO community) took time to really decide what we wanted, and expected, from the project and out of the project and made sure that those decisions and expectations matched with reality.
Re: volunteer activity tracking
On 21.11.2019 14:42, Jörg Schmidt wrote: > > >> -Original Message- >> From: Branko Čibej [mailto:br...@apache.org] >> Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2019 2:16 PM >> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org >> Subject: Re: volunteer activity tracking > >> I have not heard of a single instance in the history of the ASF where >> merit was bought -- either through donations or through salaried >> employees. I'm sure there have been attempts, we all know >> what nonsense >> "smart" managers are capable of coming up with. > And I didn't(!!!) say anyone intended to buy "merit". I was talking about > legally acquired merit. I'm not sure what you mean by "legally acquired merit." > Or are members of the PMC not allowed to have different opinions when voting? They surely are, but a healthy community will reach a consensus through discussion, not by majority fiat through a vote. This is actually a crucial point and what the ASF is all about: and, if you find yourself making decisions by voting, rather than the vote being just a way to formally confirm prior consensus, then something has gone very wrong. Different opinions /should/ be ironed out through discussion. If they're not, eventually the community will break up. If the community finds itself unable to form consensus about some topic, it's better to postpone any decision, or explore alternatives. > And if they may, may they not have different opinions in the future than at > the time when they became a PMC member? Of course they may. That's a normal consequence of learning, after all. -- Brane - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: volunteer activity tracking
Hello, Am 21.11.19 um 14:42 schrieb Jörg Schmidt: > Or are members of the PMC not allowed to have different opinions when voting? > And if they may, may they not have different opinions in the future than at > the time when they became a PMC member? > Normally we discuss to get a consensus. Crucial votes are out-of-favour. This is the only way to keep the community together. Kind regards Michael signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
RE: volunteer activity tracking
> -Original Message- > From: Branko Čibej [mailto:br...@apache.org] > Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2019 2:16 PM > To: dev@openoffice.apache.org > Subject: Re: volunteer activity tracking > I have not heard of a single instance in the history of the ASF where > merit was bought -- either through donations or through salaried > employees. I'm sure there have been attempts, we all know > what nonsense > "smart" managers are capable of coming up with. And I didn't(!!!) say anyone intended to buy "merit". I was talking about legally acquired merit. Or are members of the PMC not allowed to have different opinions when voting? And if they may, may they not have different opinions in the future than at the time when they became a PMC member? greetings, Jörg - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: volunteer activity tracking
On 21.11.2019 13:35, Jörg Schmidt wrote: > Hello, > >> -Original Message- >> From: Hagar Delest [mailto:delest.ha...@gmail.com] >> Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2019 7:29 PM >> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org >> Subject: Re: volunteer activity tracking >> >> Le 20/11/2019 à 09:33, Jörg Schmidt a écrit : >>> for example: At first glance, activity is activity, but I >> think there >>> is a certain difference between the activity of people who >> only work >>> in the project because they are paid for it by companies and people >>> who work in the project out of their own interest. >> I don't understand the point. If he someone is paid to work on the >> project, at least he produces something. Why would it be >> considered less >> than the energy put by someone contributing of his own? What >> if the guy >> is paid AND he likes what he does? > My opinion is that "merit" is something specific other than "important" (Your > wording was: "Why would it be considered less..."). "merit" is something very > personal. > > For me, this is personal because each of us, with skill, effort and perhaps > also some luck, can earn and donate any amount of money. On the other hand > the day has only 24 hours for each of us and nobody can increase this time. > > And please, don't get me wrong: > the support by companies or other donors, I don't think is unimportant or of > less value in the core, but "merit" is something which for me also contains a > pinch of what one could call "honor". (Perhaps not the best choice of words, > but hopefully understandable) I have not heard of a single instance in the history of the ASF where merit was bought -- either through donations or through salaried employees. I'm sure there have been attempts, we all know what nonsense "smart" managers are capable of coming up with. If you have evidence that specific people have a secret agenda to undermine or otherwise steer this project in ways that are not in the best interests of the users, then by all means bring it up, either here, or on the private@ list, or to the Board. Open discussion is definitely encouraged at the ASF. But please be careful if you do: saying "I have a feeling" is not evidence. -- Brane - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
RE: volunteer activity tracking
Hello, > -Original Message- > From: Hagar Delest [mailto:delest.ha...@gmail.com] > Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2019 7:29 PM > To: dev@openoffice.apache.org > Subject: Re: volunteer activity tracking > > Le 20/11/2019 à 09:33, Jörg Schmidt a écrit : > > for example: At first glance, activity is activity, but I > think there > > is a certain difference between the activity of people who > only work > > in the project because they are paid for it by companies and people > > who work in the project out of their own interest. > I don't understand the point. If he someone is paid to work on the > project, at least he produces something. Why would it be > considered less > than the energy put by someone contributing of his own? What > if the guy > is paid AND he likes what he does? My opinion is that "merit" is something specific other than "important" (Your wording was: "Why would it be considered less..."). "merit" is something very personal. For me, this is personal because each of us, with skill, effort and perhaps also some luck, can earn and donate any amount of money. On the other hand the day has only 24 hours for each of us and nobody can increase this time. And please, don't get me wrong: the support by companies or other donors, I don't think is unimportant or of less value in the core, but "merit" is something which for me also contains a pinch of what one could call "honor". (Perhaps not the best choice of words, but hopefully understandable) > If there was any 3rd party influence, that would mean that at least > someone is trying to steer the project with some agenda. According to > the development level of the project, I'm not sure we should > be afraid > about that, or should we? The "development level of the project" is not a criterion for this. greetings, Jörg > > If there was any 3rd party influence, that would mean that at least > someone is trying to steer the project with some agenda. According to > the development level of the project, I'm not sure we should > be afraid > about that, or should we? > > Let's be realistic and work on the problems instead of preventing > hypothetical wrong use of the instances. > > Hagar (EN Forum moderator) > Not a developer, just admiring those remaining on the project. > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
RE: volunteer activity tracking (was: Ariel is back in our PMC and developer circle)
Hello, > -Original Message- > From: Peter Kovacs [mailto:pe...@apache.org] > Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2019 8:32 AM > To: dev@openoffice.apache.org > Subject: Re: volunteer activity tracking (was: Ariel is back > in our PMC and developer circle) > > hi everyone, > [...] I did not complain about the dominance of a company! I don't want to say anything more about the rest because I consider it pointless. I feel that an open discussion is not desired, I have to take note of that. These statements do not concern you Peter, but others. You, Peter, have tried to help me several times, my thanks for that. greetings, Jörg - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
RE: volunteer activity tracking (was: Ariel is back in our PMC and developer circle)
> -Original Message- > From: Dave Fisher [mailto:w...@apache.org] > Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2019 4:51 PM > To: dev@openoffice.apache.org > Subject: Re: volunteer activity tracking (was: Ariel is back > in our PMC and developer circle) > At the Foundation we expect that everyone working on a > project are doing so as individuals and any merit attained is > as an individual. [1] In the initial formation of a project > at The ASF the original PMC and Committers is often > determined in part by those entities who are bringing the > donation to the Foundation. Incubation is about helping > project communities to work in the “Apache Way”. [2] > OpenOffice.org’s proposal was unique in that the Initial > Committer list was made open for all those who were > interested. I signed up as interested as did some other > members of the Apache POI PMC (we were interested in MSFT > document compatibility). I took it upon myself to help with > Infrastructure like the websites, confluence wikis, and domain names. Absolutely clear for me and absolutely no problem for me! I had already made explicit reference to the ASF rules, and of course the usual procedures also belong to them for me. > > For me, and this may be my personal opinion, one must not > put good agreement above success - you have to find a balance > between both things. > > > >> The influence of enterprises were drastic in the > >> moment they stopped supporting us. > > > > Exactly, and why are no consequences drawn? The problem was > not that the company stopped its support, but that one > company was doing it at absolutely the wrong time and under > the wrong circumstances. > > When IBM withdrew support it did not mean that PMC Members > who were employed by IBM stopped contributing. They stopped > as individuals slowly over time. > > We had one PMC Chair who seriously started a discussion about > shutting down the project. Thank you for this (imho) very important info. Not good that the community was not informed about it, but this info was apparently only known internally. greetings, Jörg - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: volunteer activity tracking (was: Ariel is back in our PMC and developer circle)
hi everyone, Since I joined the Project I have the feeling that people who still feel that they belong to the openoffice.org community do not understand how the ASF operates. I have the feeling Jörgs issues belongs to the same category. We do not have the Issue of a company that dominates OpenOffice. And I say every company has a hard time to do so, because of the people on the project. Lets take a minute, to take a look on the case. In my opinion a dominating company dominates by development power. They can push through development decision on the dev list using their developers. The PMC in the sense of Project domination is not that important. The PMC decides: 1) trademark enforcement of the market name OpenOffice. 2) decides how our funds are spend. (we have less then you think ;) and these funds are a special case left overs from Oracle ) 3) organize funds from the foundation if we need money for a topic. (like the trademark is paid from the funds. 4) It decides who can become a committer and who is invited to the PMC. (this is the most obvious power to lock down a project, and the most obvious.) 5) media / press communication 6) company / privat person inquery / complain address. I think except for 4) all point are not meaning full from a domination perspective. Now the Foundation as such is aware that companies can dominate. So the Foundation has some mechanism to control and act. 1) the board. Once a quarter the report is filed and reviewed by the board. 2) the mentors. When a project becomes a podling in the incubator mentors are supervising the project and help teaching the ASF way. After the incubator ends, the mentors remain in the projects. Our mentors are very silent because of the very experienced people we have. 3) ASF Members. Every ASF Member has full access to the private List. I hope this helps and my view is complete. So Jörg, you are fine with the ASF is our Steward and nothing more as the Steward? We had this issue with the paid resources, where the ASF will not pay for developers because they only Steward the projects. So we still have this topic on building our own community organization which can fills such a role. But this is OT. If we want to discuss this topic, please make a seperate topic. Also for companies or recruiting. Just discuss it in an own topic. All the Best Peter On 20.11.19 12:12, Jörg Schmidt wrote: > > >> -Original Message- >> From: Dr. Michael Stehmann [mailto:anw...@rechtsanwalt-stehmann.de] >> Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2019 10:14 AM >> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org >> Subject: Re: volunteer activity tracking (was: Ariel is back >> in our PMC and developer circle) >> >> Hello, >> >> Am 20.11.19 um 09:33 schrieb Jörg Schmidt: >>> Hello Peter, >>> >>>> -Original Message- >>>> From: Peter Kovacs [mailto:pe...@apache.org] >>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2019 7:50 AM >>>> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org >>>> Subject: volunteer activity tracking (was: Ariel is back in >>>> our PMC and developer circle) >>>> >>>> Hello Jörg, >>>> >>>> >>>> It is still unclear why you want to track activity. Can you >>>> elaborate on >>>> this point maybe? >>> First let me say: I don't think it is necessary to find out >> in real time who is active at the moment, it would probably >> be enough to publish it once a month. >>> Why do I want to know who is active? >>> For decisions of the PMC the majority principle applies >> (imho). The majority, however, depends on the votes >> (respectively the opinions) of the people who are currently active. >>> >>> And in the long run: Has no one really thought about the >> principle that no one can be excluded from the PMC and that >> third parties can install majorities there? >>> for example: At first glance, activity is activity, but I >> think there is a certain difference between the activity of >> people who only work in the project because they are paid for >> it by companies and people who work in the project out of >> their own interest. >> I do not remember any case, in which a permanent inactive PMC member >> "jumps out of the box" to influence a voting. > I have not mentioned any names (elsewhere) because I do not want to turn > against people, because I don't hold them responsible for what companies have > done. > On the other hand, why is it merit for people if they have only done their > paid job... > > For me, and this may be my personal opinion, one must not put good agreement > above success - you have to find a balance between both things. > >> The influe
Re: volunteer activity tracking
Le 20/11/2019 à 09:33, Jörg Schmidt a écrit : for example: At first glance, activity is activity, but I think there is a certain difference between the activity of people who only work in the project because they are paid for it by companies and people who work in the project out of their own interest. I don't understand the point. If he someone is paid to work on the project, at least he produces something. Why would it be considered less than the energy put by someone contributing of his own? What if the guy is paid AND he likes what he does? If there was any 3rd party influence, that would mean that at least someone is trying to steer the project with some agenda. According to the development level of the project, I'm not sure we should be afraid about that, or should we? Let's be realistic and work on the problems instead of preventing hypothetical wrong use of the instances. Hagar (EN Forum moderator) Not a developer, just admiring those remaining on the project. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: volunteer activity tracking (was: Ariel is back in our PMC and developer circle)
> On Nov 20, 2019, at 3:12 AM, Jörg Schmidt wrote: > > > >> -Original Message- >> From: Dr. Michael Stehmann [mailto:anw...@rechtsanwalt-stehmann.de] >> Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2019 10:14 AM >> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org >> Subject: Re: volunteer activity tracking (was: Ariel is back >> in our PMC and developer circle) >> >> Hello, >> >> Am 20.11.19 um 09:33 schrieb Jörg Schmidt: >>> Hello Peter, >>> >>>> -Original Message- >>>> From: Peter Kovacs [mailto:pe...@apache.org] >>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2019 7:50 AM >>>> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org >>>> Subject: volunteer activity tracking (was: Ariel is back in >>>> our PMC and developer circle) >>>> >>>> Hello Jörg, >>>> >>>> >>>> It is still unclear why you want to track activity. Can you >>>> elaborate on >>>> this point maybe? >>> >>> First let me say: I don't think it is necessary to find out >> in real time who is active at the moment, it would probably >> be enough to publish it once a month. >>> >>> Why do I want to know who is active? >>> For decisions of the PMC the majority principle applies >> (imho). The majority, however, depends on the votes >> (respectively the opinions) of the people who are currently active. >>> >>> >>> And in the long run: Has no one really thought about the >> principle that no one can be excluded from the PMC and that >> third parties can install majorities there? >>> >>> for example: At first glance, activity is activity, but I >> think there is a certain difference between the activity of >> people who only work in the project because they are paid for >> it by companies and people who work in the project out of >> their own interest. >>> > >> I do not remember any case, in which a permanent inactive PMC member >> "jumps out of the box" to influence a voting. > > I have not mentioned any names (elsewhere) because I do not want to turn > against people, because I don't hold them responsible for what companies have > done. > On the other hand, why is it merit for people if they have only done their > paid job... At the Foundation we expect that everyone working on a project are doing so as individuals and any merit attained is as an individual. [1] In the initial formation of a project at The ASF the original PMC and Committers is often determined in part by those entities who are bringing the donation to the Foundation. Incubation is about helping project communities to work in the “Apache Way”. [2] OpenOffice.org’s proposal was unique in that the Initial Committer list was made open for all those who were interested. I signed up as interested as did some other members of the Apache POI PMC (we were interested in MSFT document compatibility). I took it upon myself to help with Infrastructure like the websites, confluence wikis, and domain names. > > For me, and this may be my personal opinion, one must not put good agreement > above success - you have to find a balance between both things. > >> The influence of enterprises were drastic in the >> moment they stopped supporting us. > > Exactly, and why are no consequences drawn? The problem was not that the > company stopped its support, but that one company was doing it at absolutely > the wrong time and under the wrong circumstances. When IBM withdrew support it did not mean that PMC Members who were employed by IBM stopped contributing. They stopped as individuals slowly over time. We had one PMC Chair who seriously started a discussion about shutting down the project. Yet, we still continue. All as volunteers - as far as we know. > > Where was the PMC in this situation? Where was the attempt to influence? > Where was the will to discuss things openly with the community? Personally I was very busy elsewhere. IMO there was a lot of shock and it took some time for the project to recover and continue producing releases. > > > > > Enough for today, because I feel that any attempt at critical discussion here > is only perceived as disturbing. Not necessarily. It would be a little easier if you started a separate thread ;-) Regards, Dave [1] https://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#hats [2] https://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html [3] https://community.apache.org/projectIndependence.html#apache-projects-are-managed-independently > > > > greetings, > Jörg > > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
RE: volunteer activity tracking (was: Ariel is back in our PMC and developer circle)
> -Original Message- > From: Dr. Michael Stehmann [mailto:anw...@rechtsanwalt-stehmann.de] > Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2019 10:14 AM > To: dev@openoffice.apache.org > Subject: Re: volunteer activity tracking (was: Ariel is back > in our PMC and developer circle) > > Hello, > > Am 20.11.19 um 09:33 schrieb Jörg Schmidt: > > Hello Peter, > > > >> -Original Message- > >> From: Peter Kovacs [mailto:pe...@apache.org] > >> Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2019 7:50 AM > >> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org > >> Subject: volunteer activity tracking (was: Ariel is back in > >> our PMC and developer circle) > >> > >> Hello Jörg, > >> > >> > >> It is still unclear why you want to track activity. Can you > >> elaborate on > >> this point maybe? > > > > First let me say: I don't think it is necessary to find out > in real time who is active at the moment, it would probably > be enough to publish it once a month. > > > > Why do I want to know who is active? > > For decisions of the PMC the majority principle applies > (imho). The majority, however, depends on the votes > (respectively the opinions) of the people who are currently active. > > > > > > And in the long run: Has no one really thought about the > principle that no one can be excluded from the PMC and that > third parties can install majorities there? > > > > for example: At first glance, activity is activity, but I > think there is a certain difference between the activity of > people who only work in the project because they are paid for > it by companies and people who work in the project out of > their own interest. > > > I do not remember any case, in which a permanent inactive PMC member > "jumps out of the box" to influence a voting. I have not mentioned any names (elsewhere) because I do not want to turn against people, because I don't hold them responsible for what companies have done. On the other hand, why is it merit for people if they have only done their paid job... For me, and this may be my personal opinion, one must not put good agreement above success - you have to find a balance between both things. > The influence of enterprises were drastic in the > moment they stopped supporting us. Exactly, and why are no consequences drawn? The problem was not that the company stopped its support, but that one company was doing it at absolutely the wrong time and under the wrong circumstances. Where was the PMC in this situation? Where was the attempt to influence? Where was the will to discuss things openly with the community? Enough for today, because I feel that any attempt at critical discussion here is only perceived as disturbing. greetings, Jörg - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: volunteer activity tracking (was: Ariel is back in our PMC and developer circle)
Hello, Am 20.11.19 um 09:33 schrieb Jörg Schmidt: > Hello Peter, > >> -Original Message- >> From: Peter Kovacs [mailto:pe...@apache.org] >> Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2019 7:50 AM >> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org >> Subject: volunteer activity tracking (was: Ariel is back in >> our PMC and developer circle) >> >> Hello Jörg, >> >> >> It is still unclear why you want to track activity. Can you >> elaborate on >> this point maybe? > > First let me say: I don't think it is necessary to find out in real time who > is active at the moment, it would probably be enough to publish it once a > month. > > Why do I want to know who is active? > For decisions of the PMC the majority principle applies (imho). The majority, > however, depends on the votes (respectively the opinions) of the people who > are currently active. > > > And in the long run: Has no one really thought about the principle that no > one can be excluded from the PMC and that third parties can install > majorities there? > > for example: At first glance, activity is activity, but I think there is a > certain difference between the activity of people who only work in the > project because they are paid for it by companies and people who work in the > project out of their own interest. > IMO the best way to improve a system is to solve its practical problems. I do not remember any case, in which a permanent inactive PMC member "jumps out of the box" to influence a voting. I do not see any PMC member, which tries to undercut AOO in collaboration with others. IMO the influence of third parties, esp. enterprises is in AOO more negligible than it is in other Apache projects. The influence of enterprises were drastic in the moment they stopped supporting us. And unfortunately I do not know any enterprise, who is willing to support us substantially in future. That is one of our actual problems. So IMO we should focus our energy and resources to solve the practical problems we really have. As an example: Let us reflect, how we can transact the proposals of Patricia to recruit new developers. And another one: Let us reflect, how we get the infrastructure we need to work well. Kind regards Michael signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
volunteer activity tracking (was: Ariel is back in our PMC and developer circle)
Hello Jörg, It is still unclear why you want to track activity. Can you elaborate on this point maybe? Cheers, Peter On 19.11.19 21:52, Jörg Schmidt wrote: > > >> -Original Message- >> From: Dave Fisher [mailto:w...@apache.org] >> Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2019 8:24 PM >> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org >> Subject: Re: Ariel is back in our PMC and developer circle >> >> >> >>> On Nov 19, 2019, at 11:08 AM, Jörg Schmidt >> wrote: >>> Can you please explain to me what "back in our PMC" means? >> Better wording would be “has reengaged in OpenOffice development. > Thank you. That's very interesting. > > Is it at all clear to the PMC members that this was the background to my > proposal, which was strongly rejected some time ago? > > > Your answer today makes one thing clear: > there are PMC members who are currently actively involved in OpenOffice > development and those who are not. > And my whole concern was: Where can I see who is currently active? > > Maybe now it's easier to understand that it wasn't my intention to remove > non-active people from the PMC, but only to clearly mark who is currently > active. > > > And please: it is not enough to look up who is committing code, because we > also have committers who work elsewhere. > > > greetings, > Jörg > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
