Re: [OSM-dev] New Map Style feedback
2015-11-02 20:02 GMT+01:00 Holger Jeromin : > I do not care if the road is a motorway or trunk if this road is > the only large road into a city. > what might change instantly if motorways were to cost money to use them, and other roads not. FYI, motorways are toll roads in most countries of the world. Cheers, Martin ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] New Map Style feedback
Maarten Deen Wrote in message: > On 2015-11-01 18:09, Amaroussi (OpenStreetMap) wrote: > > I agree that the abandonging of the blue for motorways is a bad choice. Rendering major roads like rivers or forest is not a good idea. We were just used to it, which make it not good. > It is not only a british color, motorways are signalled in blue also in > lots of other countries in europe. The German highway signs are blue, but there is no German map showing blue motorways. After seeing my hometown Aachen I was really surprised how good the structure of road class is. I never saw it with the old style with its random / jumping colors. From the motorway there are big roads like branches into the city centre. > But that is not really the issue. It is not that a colorscheme should > follow the colorscheme of a particular country per se. The current color > scheme just makes it hard to distinguish roads. Teritary roads, being > white, are all but unrecognizable. Looking at motorways, trunk roads or > primary roads, I can not tell one from the other, except when I see two > next to eachother. Do you really have to? To understand a city I need a comparison, no absolute road class. I do not care if the road is a motorway or trunk if this road is the only large road into a city. -- Holger Android NewsGroup Reader http://usenet.sinaapp.com/ ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] New Map Style feedback
I find it strange to see many people arguing that there should be a > similarity between street signs and the colour used on the map. Germany, >> for example, uses blue motorway signs exclusively, >> > > I'm not sure if I read this right, but the Netherlands, Belgium and France > also use blue signs to indicate motorways. > > Belgium uses green signs for motorways. On maps I always saw orange/yellow with two red bands. I guess I only look at Michelin's maps before... I had gotten used to the odd 'UK' colour scheme. I guess we'll get used to this new colour scheme as well, eventually. Polyglot ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] New Map Style feedback
SimonPoole wrote: > And in lots of countries in Europe they are signposted in green. I'm > not quite sure why we are being held ransom to a questionable > decision which was made (not so long ago) by an unrelated third > party. Which interesting enough however doesn't use every > imaginable colour for their road network either > https://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/osmaps/#53.00818632749056,-1.4402046835289466 For the eighty gazillionth time: The old OSM style did not use blue, green and red because these were "Ordnance Survey" colours. The old OSM style used blue, green and red because they were the standard British map colours. In particular, other UK cartographers used green for non-primary roads long before OS did (I think OS only switched in the late '90s). If you want to find a commercial prototype for OSM then the AA maps are a little closer, but actually the colours were directly taken from a map I did for the Cotswold Canals Trust, slightly desaturated: https://twitter.com/richardf/status/632185970037657600 I'm not saying that because I have a particular animus towards the new style (I agree that a change was long overdue, and greatly respect the work that the osm-carto team have put into it); I simply want to squash this erroneous idea that the old colours were OS-derived. Incidentally, the old shields (which should have been taken out back and shot a long time ago, and I'm glad they're gone) were not remotely OS either, as some people have excitedly claimed, but were an unintentional echo of British Railways totem signs from the 1950s: http://website.lineone.net/~alan.c.edwards/railsign.html Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/New-Map-Style-feedback-tp5858553p5858637.html Sent from the Developer Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] New Map Style feedback
Richard Fairhurst wrote: > other UK cartographers used green for non-primary roads (I meant "primary A roads", of course, or in OSM parlance "trunk") Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/New-Map-Style-feedback-tp5858553p5858638.html Sent from the Developer Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Osmosis data corruption on Debian Jessie/Testing
I've added the check. Processing will abort if unicode support is broken, and the error message suggests including a newer version of Xerces. On Mon, 2 Nov 2015 at 17:30 Brett Henderson wrote: > Ah, great I'll take a look this evening and see if I can add a runtime > check. > > On Mon, Nov 2, 2015, 5:15 PM Jochen Topf wrote: > >> As I mentioned below: >> > > > > You can test whether this bug is on your system, too: Download >> the XML >> > > > > for this node: http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/3382756758. >> Then run >> > > > > it through osmosis: >> > > > > >> > > > > osmosis --rx 3382756758.osm --wx out.osm >> > > > > Compare the two files, you'll see the musical notation character >> > > doubling >> >> On Mo, Nov 02, 2015 at 05:34:14 +, Brett Henderson wrote: >> > Sorry, I'm terrible at checking this list. 6 months isn't ideal. Does >> > anybody have an XML snippet that I could use for such a test? >> > >> > On Fri, 6 Mar 2015 at 23:50 Jochen Topf wrote: >> > >> > > I think the bug is important and subtle enough that we should make >> sure it >> > > doesn't resurface again. Either by detecting the runtime or by the >> check >> > > you describe. At least we should put the check into a unit test, so >> that >> > > people who run the tests on their platform after building can be safe. >> > > >> > > Jochen >> > > >> > > On Thu, Mar 05, 2015 at 05:25:12PM +1100, Brett Henderson wrote: >> > > > Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2015 17:25:12 +1100 >> > > > From: Brett Henderson >> > > > To: Jochen Topf >> > > > Cc: OSM-Dev Openstreetmap >> > > > Subject: Re: [OSM-dev] Osmosis data corruption on Debian >> Jessie/Testing >> > > > >> > > > I suspect that attempting to detect the underlying XML runtime >> would be >> > > > brittle. Another option might be to embed that bit of data in >> Osmosis >> > > > itself and do a self test before attempting to execute any XML >> tasks. >> > > > >> > > > I'm surprised that this is still an issue in standard Java. I tried >> > > > raising tickets against Sun Java before it moved under Oracle but >> never >> > > got >> > > > a response. I gave up, embedded Xerces in the main Osmosis >> distribution, >> > > > and then forgot about it. >> > > > >> > > > On 5 March 2015 at 10:16, Jochen Topf wrote: >> > > > >> > > > > Hi! >> > > > > >> > > > > Just spent a few hours debugging this problem: The way Osmosis is >> > > packaged >> > > > > on Debian Jessie seems to be wrong. It doesn't use the Xerces XML >> > > parser >> > > > > but seems to fall back to Java default XML parser which mangles >> Unicode >> > > > > characters. >> > > > > >> > > > > This can lead to data corruption (and has for me today) when using >> > > Osmosis >> > > > > for planet updates etc. >> > > > > >> > > > > You can test whether this bug is on your system, too: Download >> the XML >> > > > > for this node: http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/3382756758. >> Then run >> > > > > it through osmosis: >> > > > > >> > > > > osmosis --rx 3382756758.osm --wx out.osm >> > > > > >> > > > > Compare the two files, you'll see the musical notation character >> > > doubling >> > > > > in the second case when your Osmosis is broken. The fix is >> simple: Add >> > > > > a line "load /usr/share/java/xercesImpl.jar" to >> > > /etc/osmosis/plexus.conf. >> > > > > As I understand this, it tells Java to load Xerces replacing the >> > > built-in >> > > > > XML parser. >> > > > > >> > > > > I have opened a bug with Debian. >> > > > > >> > > > > Arguably Osmosis should somehow detect when Xerces isn't found and >> > > return >> > > > > an >> > > > > error instead of using a different implemenation. But I don't know >> > > enough >> > > > > about >> > > > > Java to say whether thats possible. >> > > > > >> > > > > Jochen >> > > > > -- >> > > > > Jochen Topf joc...@remote.org http://www.jochentopf.com/ >> > > > > +49-173-7019282 >> > > > > >> > > > > ___ >> > > > > dev mailing list >> > > > > dev@openstreetmap.org >> > > > > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev >> > > > > >> > > >> > > -- >> > > Jochen Topf joc...@remote.org http://www.jochentopf.com/ >> > > +49-173-7019282 >> > > >> >> -- >> Jochen Topf joc...@remote.org http://www.jochentopf.com/ >> +49-351-31778688 >> > ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] New Map Style feedback
+1 Cheers Andy -Original Message- From: Maarten Deen [mailto:md...@xs4all.nl] Sent: 02 November 2015 08:40 To: dev@openstreetmap.org; talk...@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [OSM-dev] New Map Style feedback On 2015-11-01 18:09, Amaroussi (OpenStreetMap) wrote: > Hi all, > > I have been gathering thoughts from the talk-gb list and my main > concern now is how the tertiary roads are shown, especially in > countries where people map roads according to quality and hierarchy > (and there are more than one). In Greece, tertiary roads connect all > villages while in Thailand, tertiary roads have an important use in > referring to roads with four digit numbers. > > While I believe that the new rendering has potential, I am suggesting > that in order to resolve concerns about the portrayal of tertiary > roads, the motorways on the mainstream style should be blue, purple or > violet instead of the current shade of rose. This would free up rose > for trunk roads, red for primary roads and so on until yellow for > tertiary. I agree that the abandonging of the blue for motorways is a bad choice. It is not only a british color, motorways are signalled in blue also in lots of other countries in europe. But that is not really the issue. It is not that a colorscheme should follow the colorscheme of a particular country per se. The current color scheme just makes it hard to distinguish roads. Teritary roads, being white, are all but unrecognizable. Looking at motorways, trunk roads or primary roads, I can not tell one from the other, except when I see two next to eachother. Furthermore, on high zooms, roads have gotten too fat. It makes the map look bulky. The colorscheme for roads is defintely a step back from the previous. Regards, Maarten ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.6173 / Virus Database: 4455/10932 - Release Date: 11/01/15 ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] New Map Style feedback
Hi, The only immediate main problem I have is the Tertiary roads due to many countries using it as well, but other than that I still offer to mediate any potential dispute over the road colours, and for that I have suggested that the British/Heritage/Legacy/whatever you like to call it layer be added as soon as a tile server for that goes live. No, I’m not throwing a temper tantrum over the change in the layer, but I was thinking how I could manage the change for UK users. — Amaroussi > On 2 Nov 2015, at 09:30, Frederik Ramm wrote: > > Hi, > > On 11/02/2015 09:40 AM, Maarten Deen wrote: >> I agree that the abandonging of the blue for motorways is a bad choice. >> It is not only a british color, motorways are signalled in blue also in >> lots of other countries in europe. > > I find it strange to see many people arguing that there should be a > similarity between street signs and the colour used on the map. Germany, > for example, uses blue motorway signs exclusively, but the first thing > that went out of the window when the German OSM style > (http://www.openstreetmap.de/karte.html) was created in 2011 was the > blue motorways ("nobody apart from the Brits likes that") ;) > > Bye > Frederik > > -- > Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" > > ___ > dev mailing list > dev@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] New Map Style feedback
2015-11-02 10:33 GMT+01:00 Simon Poole : > Which > interesting enough however doesn't use every imaginable colour for their > road network either > > https://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/osmaps/#53.00818632749056,-1.4402046835289466 > and essentially only differentiates between three road types. > and creates misleading / very hard to read situations like this (confusion motorway/rivers): [image: Inline-Bild 1] cheers, Martin ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] New Map Style feedback
2015-11-02 10:51 GMT+01:00 Simon Poole : > -1 given that you can always find specific situations in which a one > size fits all rendering fails, in the previous style there are tons of > while blobs made out of residential class roads, didn't stop anybody > from using the map. > examples? IMHO, a residential road has to have some minimum width, a 2 metres wide alley (total width, no pavement) in a historic town center should be tagged as an alley, for instance. Similarly, a highway=pedestrian should be a road that is pedestrianized, not a small footway/alley inside a "pedestrian" zone. Cheers, Martin ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] New Map Style feedback
Am 02.11.2015 um 10:03 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer: > > > +1, especially tertiary roads now tend to merge into blobs, e.g. here: > http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/41.85901/12.49464 > > -1 given that you can always find specific situations in which a one size fits all rendering fails, in the previous style there are tons of while blobs made out of residential class roads, didn't stop anybody from using the map. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] New Map Style feedback
On 2015-11-02 10:30, Frederik Ramm wrote: Hi, On 11/02/2015 09:40 AM, Maarten Deen wrote: I agree that the abandonging of the blue for motorways is a bad choice. It is not only a british color, motorways are signalled in blue also in lots of other countries in europe. I find it strange to see many people arguing that there should be a similarity between street signs and the colour used on the map. Germany, for example, uses blue motorway signs exclusively, I'm not sure if I read this right, but the Netherlands, Belgium and France also use blue signs to indicate motorways. But I also say "It is not that a colorscheme should follow the colorscheme of a particular country per se", so IMHO it should not be a consideration. I was merely pointing out that it was not limited to the UK alone. Regards, Maarten ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] New Map Style feedback
Am 02.11.2015 um 09:40 schrieb Maarten Deen: > > I agree that the abandonging of the blue for motorways is a bad > choice. It is not only a british color, motorways are signalled in > blue also in lots of other countries in europe. And in lots of countries in Europe they are signposted in green. I'm not quite sure why we are being held ransom to a questionable decision which was made (not so long ago) by an unrelated third party. Which interesting enough however doesn't use every imaginable colour for their road network either https://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/osmaps/#53.00818632749056,-1.4402046835289466 and essentially only differentiates between three road types. > But that is not really the issue. It is not that a colorscheme should > follow the colorscheme of a particular country per se. The current > color scheme just makes it hard to distinguish roads. Teritary roads, > being white, are all but unrecognizable. Looking at motorways, trunk > roads or primary roads, I can not tell one from the other, except when > I see two next to eachother. > Furthermore, on high zooms, roads have gotten too fat. It makes the > map look bulky. > > The colorscheme for roads is defintely a step back from the previous. I think you'll find that most find that it is a big step forward. if you go back and look at the material provided during the (very very public) development and discussion of the changes, or just compare with the French style (which uses the previous colour scheme), it is very obvious that the road network is rendered substantially better now. Your straw man: "I have to be able to recognize each single road type in isolation" is simply not realistic for a map that is supposed to include everything else too. Simon signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] New Map Style feedback
Hi, On 11/02/2015 09:40 AM, Maarten Deen wrote: > I agree that the abandonging of the blue for motorways is a bad choice. > It is not only a british color, motorways are signalled in blue also in > lots of other countries in europe. I find it strange to see many people arguing that there should be a similarity between street signs and the colour used on the map. Germany, for example, uses blue motorway signs exclusively, but the first thing that went out of the window when the German OSM style (http://www.openstreetmap.de/karte.html) was created in 2011 was the blue motorways ("nobody apart from the Brits likes that") ;) Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] New Map Style feedback
sent from a phone > Am 02.11.2015 um 09:40 schrieb Maarten Deen : > > Teritary roads, being white, are all but unrecognizable. Looking at > motorways, trunk roads or primary roads, I can not tell one from the other, > except when I see two next to eachother. > Furthermore, on high zooms, roads have gotten too fat. It makes the map look > bulky. +1, especially tertiary roads now tend to merge into blobs, e.g. here: http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/41.85901/12.49464 cheers, Martin ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] New Map Style feedback
On 2015-11-01 18:09, Amaroussi (OpenStreetMap) wrote: Hi all, I have been gathering thoughts from the talk-gb list and my main concern now is how the tertiary roads are shown, especially in countries where people map roads according to quality and hierarchy (and there are more than one). In Greece, tertiary roads connect all villages while in Thailand, tertiary roads have an important use in referring to roads with four digit numbers. While I believe that the new rendering has potential, I am suggesting that in order to resolve concerns about the portrayal of tertiary roads, the motorways on the mainstream style should be blue, purple or violet instead of the current shade of rose. This would free up rose for trunk roads, red for primary roads and so on until yellow for tertiary. I agree that the abandonging of the blue for motorways is a bad choice. It is not only a british color, motorways are signalled in blue also in lots of other countries in europe. But that is not really the issue. It is not that a colorscheme should follow the colorscheme of a particular country per se. The current color scheme just makes it hard to distinguish roads. Teritary roads, being white, are all but unrecognizable. Looking at motorways, trunk roads or primary roads, I can not tell one from the other, except when I see two next to eachother. Furthermore, on high zooms, roads have gotten too fat. It makes the map look bulky. The colorscheme for roads is defintely a step back from the previous. Regards, Maarten ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev