Re: [OSM-dev] carto 0.16.0 released

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Il giorno 15 apr 2016, alle ore 09:24, Oleksiy Muzalyev 
>  ha scritto:
> 
> RADIO/TELEVISION 2. a tall metal pole used to support an AERIAL for radio or 
> television signals: a television/radio mast
> 
> for the word "tower" meaning No.2
> a tall, usually metal structure used for broadcasting: a radio/transmission 
> tower.


do you notice that the mast version writes about a "pole"?


> 
> Google search of "radio mast", "radio tower", "television mast", "television 
> tower", etc. gives each millions of results with similar images. It seems 
> that the words "mast" and "tower" are interchangeable.


-1, there might be edge cases that can be described with both words, but many 
can not.



> The article in English Wikipedia is called: "Radio masts and towers": 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_masts_and_towers


and if someone writes an article about "life and death" that's both the same 
state? This article puts both types in one article because it doesn't care 
about the shape but about the function (radio transmission)


cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [OSM-dev] carto 0.16.0 released

[Oleksiy Muzalyev]

On 15/04/16 08:27, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:


sent from a phone


Il giorno 15 apr 2016, alle ore 08:01, Oleksiy Muzalyev 
 ha scritto:

I started to re-tag communication towers, which I know, as 
(man_made=mast;tower:type=communication). For example, this tower of 220 meters 
in the city of Mykolaiv is already shown on the map: 
http://osm.org/go/0izbJWLIA-?m= , and before yesterday it was a blank spot.


IMHO you should not do this, man_made=mast with the meaning that is documented 
in the wiki is a poor tag, ill defined with a definition that contradicts 
itself and that doesn't reflect the meaning of the word, and which got sneaked 
into the wiki, but never was approved or positively discussed.

cheers,
Martin
I looked up the meaning of the word "mast" in the Oxford Encyclopedic 
Dictionary [1]. The meaning No.3 is:


tall steel structure for the aerials of a radio or TV transmitter.

In the article of the word "tower" in this dictionary there is nothing 
about a radio, TV, or communication.


In the Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary [2]: for the word "mast" 
No2.


RADIO/TELEVISION 2. a tall metal pole used to support an AERIAL for 
radio or television signals: a television/radio mast


for the word "tower" meaning No.2
a tall, usually metal structure used for broadcasting: a 
radio/transmission tower.


Google search of "radio mast", "radio tower", "television mast", 
"television tower", etc. gives each millions of results with similar 
images. It seems that the words "mast" and "tower" are interchangeable. 
The article in English Wikipedia is called: "Radio masts and towers": 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_masts_and_towers


brgds
Oleksiy

[1] ISBN 0-19-431310-7
[2] ISBN 978-0-521-88541-6

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Re: [OSM-dev] carto 0.16.0 released

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Il giorno 15 apr 2016, alle ore 08:01, Oleksiy Muzalyev 
>  ha scritto:
> 
> I started to re-tag communication towers, which I know, as 
> (man_made=mast;tower:type=communication). For example, this tower of 220 
> meters in the city of Mykolaiv is already shown on the map: 
> http://osm.org/go/0izbJWLIA-?m= , and before yesterday it was a blank spot.


IMHO you should not do this, man_made=mast with the meaning that is documented 
in the wiki is a poor tag, ill defined with a definition that contradicts 
itself and that doesn't reflect the meaning of the word, and which got sneaked 
into the wiki, but never was approved or positively discussed.

cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [OSM-dev] carto 0.16.0 released

[Oleksiy Muzalyev]

On 14/04/16 20:40, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:

On Thu, 14 Apr 2016 10:56:29 +0200
Oleksiy Muzalyev  wrote:


But there is no "mast" in the
JOSM "man_made" pre-sets.

You may want to use "Report bug" from help menu in JOSM (see
https://josm.openstreetmap.de/newticket for explanation).


Hi Mateusz,

Thank you for the suggestion. I did and it was immediately closed as a 
duplicate: https://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/12756 with another bug 
ticket from seventeen months ago.


But, thanks to the assistance of nebulon42, I understand by now the 
magnitude of the problem, - man_mad=tower is shown with the icon in the 
JOSM data layer, as it is present in the JOSM's pre-sets, but is not 
shown with an icon on the OSM map at all.


And vice versa, man_made=mast is shown on the OSM map with the correct 
icon, but is not shown in the JOSM, as it is absent from its pre-sets.


So, due to the power of defaults, people map communication towers (or 
masts) as (man_made=tower; tower:type=communication) and it is not 
rendered on the OSM map at all, though it looks as if it is well mapped 
in the JOSM. I checked at http://overpass-turbo.eu/ and it is the 
invisible (man_made=tower; tower:type=communication) which dominates 
overwhelmingly.


I started to re-tag communication towers, which I know, as 
(man_made=mast;tower:type=communication). For example, this tower of 220 
meters in the city of Mykolaiv is already shown on the map: 
http://osm.org/go/0izbJWLIA-?m= , and before yesterday it was a blank spot.


The communication tower (or mast) icon on the map may be interesting not 
only for inhabitants of  rural areas in Africa, or pilots, but also to 
hikers, to drivers on motorways, as being close to a communication tower 
means that one may send a message, call, download information, etc.


I will try today to write a message about this issue also to the 
openstreetmap-carto (the Standard map layer) discussion thread.


With best regards,
Oleksiy

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Re: [OSM-dev] carto 0.16.0 released

[Mateusz Konieczny]

On Thu, 14 Apr 2016 10:56:29 +0200
Oleksiy Muzalyev  wrote:

> But there is no "mast" in the
> JOSM "man_made" pre-sets.

You may want to use "Report bug" from help menu in JOSM (see
https://josm.openstreetmap.de/newticket for explanation).


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Re: [OSM-dev] carto 0.16.0 released

[Oleksiy Muzalyev]

Hi nebulon42,

Thanks for this link. The problem is solved completely. Now the Odessa 
TV tower is rendered with the icon and the height in meters: 
http://osm.org/go/0iai9XQpm?m=


Actually, it was not an issue of the openstreetmap-carto, but rather of 
the JOSM, as (man_made=mast; tower:type=communication) is rendered with 
the icon on the OSM map all right. But there is no "mast" in the JOSM 
"man_made" pre-sets.


I just re-tag (man_made=tower; tower:type=communication) into 
(man_made=mast; tower:type=communication), and it renders perfectly. 
However, I still feel a bit uncomfortable, since there is no 
"man_made=mast" in the JOSM pre-sets for some reason.


I mapped already with the icon another communication mast 
http://osm.org/go/0iapFXlv1--?m= , which is situated on the beach where 
there are a lot of the manned para-plane advertising flights during 
summer (for instance: 
https://www.facebook.com/tavriav/videos/1169624396384651/ ). You can see 
this mast clearly on this aerial photo: 
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c3/Langeron-beach-5.JPG 
and how useful this information for safety. Now I have to figure out how 
to inform the JOSM people about this problematic.


Thank you again for pointing me in the right direction.

Best regards,
Oleksiy

On 13/04/16 20:32, nebulon42 wrote:

On 13/04/16 20:32, nebulon42 wrote:

Hi Oleksiy,

...Or have a look at
https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/339, which
might be related.
...

Am 2016-04-13 um 09:25 schrieb Oleksiy Muzalyev:

Good morning nebulon42,

...A small suggestion: a communication tower does not have an icon on the
OSM map...



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Re: [OSM-dev] carto 0.16.0 released

[nebulon42]

Thanks, but don't forget the important bug fix by Dane:
https://github.com/mapbox/carto/pull/393 :)

Am 2016-04-13 um 09:56 schrieb Mateusz Konieczny:
> On Tue, 12 Apr 2016 22:44:16 +0200
> nebulon42  wrote:
> 
>> Carto 0.16.0 (the JavaScript implementation of CartoCSS) has been
>> released and is available via npm.
>>
>> Changes include:
>>
>> * support for YAML MML files
>> * support for targeting Mapnik API versions from the command line
>> * support for minimum/maximum-scale-denominator (Mapnik 3)
>> * support for HuSL perceptual colours
>> * bug fixes and dependency updates
>>
>> See https://github.com/mapbox/carto/blob/master/CHANGELOG.md for the
>> full change log.
>>
>> nebulon42
>>
> 
> Thanks for info - and for developing Cart. From reading changelog .16 is
> mostly your work.
> 



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Re: [OSM-dev] carto 0.16.0 released

[nebulon42]

Hi Oleksiy,

I think you confuse openstreetmap-carto (the Standard map layer) with
carto, which is a language for styling maps quite similar to CSS. The
names have both carto in their name, so they are easily mixed up.

You might want to share your ideas with the people at
https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto. This is where the
map style is developed. Or have a look at
https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/339, which
might be related.

Best, nebulon42

Am 2016-04-13 um 09:25 schrieb Oleksiy Muzalyev:
> Good morning nebulon42,
> 
> Thank you for the information and for the update.
> 
> A small suggestion: a communication tower does not have an icon on the
> OSM map. For example, the TV tower in Berlin
>  , 368 meters (1207
> ft) height: http://osm.org/go/0MbFhhKaw--?m= .
> 
> Or the TV tower in Odessa
> 
> , 199 m (652 ft):  http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/409948785 looks just
> like an usual building on the map.
> 
> In the past it was OK, as there was mostly the 2D traffic in the cities
> (car, public transportation, bicycle, pedestrian). However, nowadays the
> new emerging multi-billion industry of civil UAVs begins to generate the
> 3D traffic.
> 
> The civil UAVs are becoming safer, for instance, the DJI Phantom 4
>  has got a collision avoidance
> system, the duplication of critical components and functions,
> sophisticated fail-safe system, etc. However, the airspace safety is a
> shared responsibility, - not only of the aircraft producers.
> 
> A civil UAV pilot usually studies a map of the area, weather forecast,
> satellite images, etc. while working on a flight plan. An icon of a
> tower with its height on the map would be beneficial in my opinion.
> 
> Best regards,
> Oleksiy
> 
> 
> On 12/04/16 22:44, nebulon42 wrote:
>> Carto 0.16.0 (the JavaScript implementation of CartoCSS) has been
>> released and is available via npm.
>>
>> Changes include:
>>
>> * support for YAML MML files
>> * support for targeting Mapnik API versions from the command line
>> * support for minimum/maximum-scale-denominator (Mapnik 3)
>> * support for HuSL perceptual colours
>> * bug fixes and dependency updates
>>
>> See https://github.com/mapbox/carto/blob/master/CHANGELOG.md for the
>> full change log.
>>
>> nebulon42
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [OSM-dev] carto 0.16.0 released

[Oleksiy Muzalyev]

On 13/04/16 10:51, Jóhannes Birgir Jensson wrote:

Þann 13.04.2016 07:25, Oleksiy Muzalyev reit:

A civil UAV pilot usually studies a map of the area, weather forecast,
satellite images, etc. while working on a flight plan. An icon of a
tower with its height on the map would be beneficial in my opinion.


Whilst I agree a tower icon might be nice (but I'm more thinking of 
rural Botswana where they are the only links to the outside world) a 
UAV pilot might want to check out 3D maps as well - where if the 
heights are marked in OSM this will be more obvious:


F4Map and Odessa tower: 
http://demo.f4map.com/#lat=46.4501075&lon=30.7396214&zoom=17
OSMBuildings: 
http://osmbuildings.org/?lat=46.45011&lon=30.73962&zoom=16.2&rotation=-10&tilt=45


Clearly any map catering to UAV needs might have to color the 
buildings by their height - not their role.
Very interesting. Thank you. I did not even know about these projects. I 
will definitely use these 3D maps.


However, even on these 3D maps there is no icon for the communication 
tower. The (man_made=tower; tower:type=communication) is of interest to 
the unmanned aviation not only because of the height, i.e. a risk of a 
collision, but mostly because its strong electro-magnetic emissions in 
some cases may interfere with the remote control signal and the 
navigation system (on-board magnetic compass). It is not difficult to 
avoid them knowing where they are.


The UAV cargo delivery technology is mostly of interest to Africa [1], 
where ground roads in rural areas are often unreliable in a rainy 
season. But even in modern urban centers, delivering say paper documents 
between banks by air may free roads from hurrying couriers and by this 
make traffic safer.


Fortunately, other related tags: power-lines, wind generators, 
lighthouses, are already well rendered with an icon on the OSM map.


[1] 
http://edition.cnn.com/2015/10/05/architecture/gallery/rwanda-droneport-foster-epfl/


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Re: [OSM-dev] carto 0.16.0 released

[Jóhannes Birgir Jensson]

Þann 13.04.2016 07:25, Oleksiy Muzalyev reit:

A civil UAV pilot usually studies a map of the area, weather forecast,
satellite images, etc. while working on a flight plan. An icon of a
tower with its height on the map would be beneficial in my opinion.


Whilst I agree a tower icon might be nice (but I'm more thinking of 
rural Botswana where they are the only links to the outside world) a UAV 
pilot might want to check out 3D maps as well - where if the heights are 
marked in OSM this will be more obvious:


F4Map and Odessa tower: 
http://demo.f4map.com/#lat=46.4501075&lon=30.7396214&zoom=17
OSMBuildings: 
http://osmbuildings.org/?lat=46.45011&lon=30.73962&zoom=16.2&rotation=-10&tilt=45


Clearly any map catering to UAV needs might have to color the buildings 
by their height - not their role.


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Re: [OSM-dev] carto 0.16.0 released

[Mateusz Konieczny]

On Tue, 12 Apr 2016 22:44:16 +0200
nebulon42  wrote:

> Carto 0.16.0 (the JavaScript implementation of CartoCSS) has been
> released and is available via npm.
> 
> Changes include:
> 
> * support for YAML MML files
> * support for targeting Mapnik API versions from the command line
> * support for minimum/maximum-scale-denominator (Mapnik 3)
> * support for HuSL perceptual colours
> * bug fixes and dependency updates
> 
> See https://github.com/mapbox/carto/blob/master/CHANGELOG.md for the
> full change log.
> 
> nebulon42
> 

Thanks for info - and for developing Cart. From reading changelog .16 is
mostly your work.

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Re: [OSM-dev] carto 0.16.0 released

[Oleksiy Muzalyev]

Good morning nebulon42,

Thank you for the information and for the update.

A small suggestion: a communication tower does not have an icon on the 
OSM map. For example, the TV tower in Berlin 
 , 368 meters (1207 
ft) height: http://osm.org/go/0MbFhhKaw--?m= .


Or the TV tower in Odessa 
 
, 199 m (652 ft): http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/409948785 looks just 
like an usual building on the map.


In the past it was OK, as there was mostly the 2D traffic in the cities 
(car, public transportation, bicycle, pedestrian). However, nowadays the 
new emerging multi-billion industry of civil UAVs begins to generate the 
3D traffic.


The civil UAVs are becoming safer, for instance, the DJI Phantom 4 
 has got a collision avoidance 
system, the duplication of critical components and functions, 
sophisticated fail-safe system, etc. However, the airspace safety is a 
shared responsibility, - not only of the aircraft producers.


A civil UAV pilot usually studies a map of the area, weather forecast, 
satellite images, etc. while working on a flight plan. An icon of a 
tower with its height on the map would be beneficial in my opinion.


Best regards,
Oleksiy


On 12/04/16 22:44, nebulon42 wrote:

Carto 0.16.0 (the JavaScript implementation of CartoCSS) has been
released and is available via npm.

Changes include:

* support for YAML MML files
* support for targeting Mapnik API versions from the command line
* support for minimum/maximum-scale-denominator (Mapnik 3)
* support for HuSL perceptual colours
* bug fixes and dependency updates

See https://github.com/mapbox/carto/blob/master/CHANGELOG.md for the
full change log.

nebulon42



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[OSM-dev] carto 0.16.0 released

[nebulon42]

Carto 0.16.0 (the JavaScript implementation of CartoCSS) has been
released and is available via npm.

Changes include:

* support for YAML MML files
* support for targeting Mapnik API versions from the command line
* support for minimum/maximum-scale-denominator (Mapnik 3)
* support for HuSL perceptual colours
* bug fixes and dependency updates

See https://github.com/mapbox/carto/blob/master/CHANGELOG.md for the
full change log.

nebulon42



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