Re: [PROPOSAL] Tomcat 10: rename language bundles
On Mon, Feb 3, 2020 at 10:13 AM Konstantin Kolinko
wrote:
> сб, 1 февр. 2020 г. в 16:31, Michael Osipov :
> >
> > Am 2020-01-30 um 18:41 schrieb Konstantin Kolinko:
> > > ср, 29 янв. 2020 г. в 00:08, Michael Osipov :
> > >
> > > [...]
> > >
> > > (Being too strict about language is a barrier that may reject people.)
> >
> > For those who don't know both, they don't care. For those who know care
> > to make it right/consistent. I see no downsides to make it right.
> >
> > This has nothing to do with American, British, You Name It English. It
> > is simply about consistent naming.
>
> I see no positive sides in the proposed renaming,
> and I do not feel it to be a right thing.
>
It's hard to argue the usefulness of the fix is limited. I'm not going to
-1 it though since the problem might be my fault (can't remember, that's
convenient :) ).
Rémy
>
> Some downsides were already mentioned by others. I will write down a
> more complete list below.
>
> > For those who don't know both, they don't care.
>
> "i18n" is a more widely known and widely used word.
>
> Familiar words make people feel more comfortable.
>
> > > 2. In multi-module projects built with Apache Maven, one widely used
> > > naming convention is to name artifacts produced by the nested modules
> > > as -.
> > >
> > > E.g., a discussion:
> > >
> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/9435460/maven-naming-conventions-for-hierarchical-multiple-module-projects
> > >
> > > I mean that the current artifact names of "tomcat-i18n-" can
> > > be interpreted as module "" in a parent project "tomcat-i18n".
> > > It means that those artifacts are part of internationalization effort
> > > in Tomcat.
> >
> > I don't see how this is related?! Nor did I bring up to do any migration
> > to Maven or its naming scheme.
>
> I mean that "tomcat-i18n" is the base name.
>
> It is not "tomcat" + "-i18n-de", but "tomcat-i18n" + "-de", as an example.
>
> The current names are not wrong.
>
>
> > > 3. Overall, my vote for this proposal is -0.5.
> > >
> > > It is not a veto, but I do not like it.
> >
> > So you generally do not object, but don't see a need for?
>
> I really object.
> I just do not veto, I do not end the discussion here at once.
>
>
> If there were other reasons to justify the change (e.g. some
> reorganization of packaging), ...
>
> (E.g. all translation files could be packaged into a single jar.)
>
> > I see no downsides ...
>
> To make it clear, the following are externally visible consequences of
> such a change:
>
> 1. Renaming of artifacts in Maven
> 2. Renaming of libraries in ${catalina.base}/lib
> 3. Change of configuration in conf/catalina.properties file (the
> libraries are mentioned in a jarsToSkip pattern).
>
> The following are internal changes:
> 4. Changes in build procedure (in build.xml, res/maven/mvn-pub.xml).
> 5. Changes in documentation (class-loader-howto.xml mentions the files).
>
> ##1-3 are the downsides that downstream consumers of Tomcat would have
> to adapt to.
>
> I certainly would have to change some of my scripts that I use with
> Tomcat and some configuration settings.
>
> ##4-5 are our internal matter.
>
> Best regards,
> Konstantin Kolinko
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@tomcat.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@tomcat.apache.org
>
>
Re: [PROPOSAL] Tomcat 10: rename language bundles
сб, 1 февр. 2020 г. в 16:31, Michael Osipov :
>
> Am 2020-01-30 um 18:41 schrieb Konstantin Kolinko:
> > ср, 29 янв. 2020 г. в 00:08, Michael Osipov :
> >
> > [...]
> >
> > (Being too strict about language is a barrier that may reject people.)
>
> For those who don't know both, they don't care. For those who know care
> to make it right/consistent. I see no downsides to make it right.
>
> This has nothing to do with American, British, You Name It English. It
> is simply about consistent naming.
I see no positive sides in the proposed renaming,
and I do not feel it to be a right thing.
Some downsides were already mentioned by others. I will write down a
more complete list below.
> For those who don't know both, they don't care.
"i18n" is a more widely known and widely used word.
Familiar words make people feel more comfortable.
> > 2. In multi-module projects built with Apache Maven, one widely used
> > naming convention is to name artifacts produced by the nested modules
> > as -.
> >
> > E.g., a discussion:
> > https://stackoverflow.com/questions/9435460/maven-naming-conventions-for-hierarchical-multiple-module-projects
> >
> > I mean that the current artifact names of "tomcat-i18n-" can
> > be interpreted as module "" in a parent project "tomcat-i18n".
> > It means that those artifacts are part of internationalization effort
> > in Tomcat.
>
> I don't see how this is related?! Nor did I bring up to do any migration
> to Maven or its naming scheme.
I mean that "tomcat-i18n" is the base name.
It is not "tomcat" + "-i18n-de", but "tomcat-i18n" + "-de", as an example.
The current names are not wrong.
> > 3. Overall, my vote for this proposal is -0.5.
> >
> > It is not a veto, but I do not like it.
>
> So you generally do not object, but don't see a need for?
I really object.
I just do not veto, I do not end the discussion here at once.
If there were other reasons to justify the change (e.g. some
reorganization of packaging), ...
(E.g. all translation files could be packaged into a single jar.)
> I see no downsides ...
To make it clear, the following are externally visible consequences of
such a change:
1. Renaming of artifacts in Maven
2. Renaming of libraries in ${catalina.base}/lib
3. Change of configuration in conf/catalina.properties file (the
libraries are mentioned in a jarsToSkip pattern).
The following are internal changes:
4. Changes in build procedure (in build.xml, res/maven/mvn-pub.xml).
5. Changes in documentation (class-loader-howto.xml mentions the files).
##1-3 are the downsides that downstream consumers of Tomcat would have
to adapt to.
I certainly would have to change some of my scripts that I use with
Tomcat and some configuration settings.
##4-5 are our internal matter.
Best regards,
Konstantin Kolinko
-
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tomcat 10: rename language bundles
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 Michael, On 2/1/20 8:31 AM, Michael Osipov wrote: > Am 2020-01-30 um 18:41 schrieb Konstantin Kolinko: >> ср, 29 янв. 2020 г. в 00:08, Michael Osipov >> : >>> >>> Folks, >>> >>> I recently worked on some localization issues and noticed that, >>> in my opinion, these JARs are incorrectly named: >>> tomcat-i18n-cs.jar tomcat-i18n-de.jar tomcat-i18n-es.jar tomcat-i18n-fr.jar tomcat-i18n-ja.jar tomcat-i18n-ko.jar tomcat-i18n-pt-BR.jar tomcat-i18n-ru.jar tomcat-i18n-zh-CN.jar >>> >>> Most people confuse I18N with L10N -- but they are distinct. >>> According to Mozilla [1] Tomcat is internationalized and >>> provides localization with those bundles. As far as I >>> understand that, they should be >>> >>> either tomcat-l10n-.jar or tomcat-nls-.jar >>> >>> [...] >>> >>> Comments? >> >> 1. Overall, I am not convinced. >> >> I think that for an average foreigner a discussion about what >> term is better makes little sense. I know people for whom those >> words are hard to pronounce and are a little obscure. >> >> Does changing one "obscure" word with another makes life easier? >> How? Does it help to reach some wider audience? >> >> I think that it would be better to keep it simple (KISS) and >> continue using the existing historic naming pattern. >> >> I am really proud of 20+ years of history of our project. If >> there are some things there that are not proper [American] >> English, it just means that there are different people involved >> with the project, and it is a good sign. >> >> (Being too strict about language is a barrier that may reject >> people.) > > For those who don't know both, they don't care. For those who know > care to make it right/consistent. I see no downsides to make it > right. > > This has nothing to do with American, British, You Name It English. > It is simply about consistent naming. > >> 2. In multi-module projects built with Apache Maven, one widely >> used naming convention is to name artifacts produced by the >> nested modules as -. >> >> E.g., a discussion: >> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/9435460/maven-naming-conventions- for-hierarchical-multiple-module-projects >> >> >> >> I mean that the current artifact names of "tomcat-i18n-" can >> be interpreted as module "" in a parent project >> "tomcat-i18n". It means that those artifacts are part of >> internationalization effort in Tomcat. > > I don't see how this is related?! Nor did I bring up to do any > migration to Maven or its naming scheme. Tomcat produces Maven artifacts, even if we don't use a Maven-based build. I think Konstantin is talking about the artifact names. Mark also brought this up previously. If we change them, we need to offer an obvious "upgrade" path. AIUI, these days, Maven doesn't do latest-dependency resolution but instead requires specific versions to be referenced. I think that frees us from introducing an incompatible name-change because every version itself is practically-incompatible with all previous versions from a dependency-resolution standpoint. I'd appreciate some clarity from those who understand Maven better than I. - -chris -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - https://www.enigmail.net/ iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEMmKgYcQvxMe7tcJcHPApP6U8pFgFAl41uzIACgkQHPApP6U8 pFiJWw//YmQwkUTfT6ucVVATHBw44ZgDPE1Bo6uC4QlACEA8IVI1F1D91epBbknR xdK5sXy4zdFe0bmuaD7rf+VA1MsIx6NdNFBgGl/vNnDXVm7SpG3dRfThPDD2+HHa MZTIB1OfNSuIdh6LZJmg+0cxf2UjtHqCwDeGkPEhVds0pVpkXwtVAVsZtGjyUuCb F+C8Vd/cW84Ji0CcUErMYgW1+BPC1OB3yd6yvpwJJ5aukQCZ3hZxpahyJRszYHV6 GaN5vfmQAualHHGCULVVcLkY2tS4FTyfRc3p33qQiRbZTA+vebCSfLIUJNhGeHl0 mGkRRykgL+lrnlXow6XlRaHJHl2y4gDKHlI9wq+rCAi9OYWF/IpPWlo4iZZj2k+h o7c2+7XIs9VdouVbr4rOhGXfXOEsoAflUl5l3XhxO7/T4FBYjy8Ci4PYge5n22vY u+PytCvVPh4Rs42m3no8aJPu0P8mUmRwdXsG2FyPIjJktvaiQGnIyMaFxqrvNiq6 4MyxGFoPE+xaFHWvo8cjsoWcduMTcuuuo8dxBTeL57c7i+T0TFWUWWDlMarnWWyh zx5NlczsAObXf+uo0rQ7pJQP3/6NaLdLs+A8mcnOO+L3pF6MNLeQCS2vIgYj2t4p 5VD7gjJ9/E8kmdslXeaQUVP1cp4IcLpiMBkRAzV7WD4XeUmxxuk= =NQzC -END PGP SIGNATURE- - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@tomcat.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@tomcat.apache.org
Re: [PROPOSAL] Tomcat 10: rename language bundles
Am 2020-01-30 um 18:41 schrieb Konstantin Kolinko: ср, 29 янв. 2020 г. в 00:08, Michael Osipov : Folks, I recently worked on some localization issues and noticed that, in my opinion, these JARs are incorrectly named: tomcat-i18n-cs.jar tomcat-i18n-de.jar tomcat-i18n-es.jar tomcat-i18n-fr.jar tomcat-i18n-ja.jar tomcat-i18n-ko.jar tomcat-i18n-pt-BR.jar tomcat-i18n-ru.jar tomcat-i18n-zh-CN.jar Most people confuse I18N with L10N -- but they are distinct. According to Mozilla [1] Tomcat is internationalized and provides localization with those bundles. As far as I understand that, they should be either tomcat-l10n-.jar or tomcat-nls-.jar [...] Comments? 1. Overall, I am not convinced. I think that for an average foreigner a discussion about what term is better makes little sense. I know people for whom those words are hard to pronounce and are a little obscure. Does changing one "obscure" word with another makes life easier? How? Does it help to reach some wider audience? I think that it would be better to keep it simple (KISS) and continue using the existing historic naming pattern. I am really proud of 20+ years of history of our project. If there are some things there that are not proper [American] English, it just means that there are different people involved with the project, and it is a good sign. (Being too strict about language is a barrier that may reject people.) For those who don't know both, they don't care. For those who know care to make it right/consistent. I see no downsides to make it right. This has nothing to do with American, British, You Name It English. It is simply about consistent naming. 2. In multi-module projects built with Apache Maven, one widely used naming convention is to name artifacts produced by the nested modules as -. E.g., a discussion: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/9435460/maven-naming-conventions-for-hierarchical-multiple-module-projects I mean that the current artifact names of "tomcat-i18n-" can be interpreted as module "" in a parent project "tomcat-i18n". It means that those artifacts are part of internationalization effort in Tomcat. I don't see how this is related?! Nor did I bring up to do any migration to Maven or its naming scheme. 3. Overall, my vote for this proposal is -0.5. It is not a veto, but I do not like it. So you generally do not object, but don't see a need for? M - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@tomcat.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@tomcat.apache.org
Re: [PROPOSAL] Tomcat 10: rename language bundles
ср, 29 янв. 2020 г. в 00:08, Michael Osipov : > > Folks, > > I recently worked on some localization issues and noticed that, in my > opinion, these JARs are incorrectly named: > > > tomcat-i18n-cs.jar > > tomcat-i18n-de.jar > > tomcat-i18n-es.jar > > tomcat-i18n-fr.jar > > tomcat-i18n-ja.jar > > tomcat-i18n-ko.jar > > tomcat-i18n-pt-BR.jar > > tomcat-i18n-ru.jar > > tomcat-i18n-zh-CN.jar > > Most people confuse I18N with L10N -- but they are distinct. According > to Mozilla [1] Tomcat is internationalized and provides localization > with those bundles. As far as I understand that, they should be > > either tomcat-l10n-.jar or tomcat-nls-.jar > > [...] > > Comments? 1. Overall, I am not convinced. I think that for an average foreigner a discussion about what term is better makes little sense. I know people for whom those words are hard to pronounce and are a little obscure. Does changing one "obscure" word with another makes life easier? How? Does it help to reach some wider audience? I think that it would be better to keep it simple (KISS) and continue using the existing historic naming pattern. I am really proud of 20+ years of history of our project. If there are some things there that are not proper [American] English, it just means that there are different people involved with the project, and it is a good sign. (Being too strict about language is a barrier that may reject people.) 2. In multi-module projects built with Apache Maven, one widely used naming convention is to name artifacts produced by the nested modules as -. E.g., a discussion: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/9435460/maven-naming-conventions-for-hierarchical-multiple-module-projects I mean that the current artifact names of "tomcat-i18n-" can be interpreted as module "" in a parent project "tomcat-i18n". It means that those artifacts are part of internationalization effort in Tomcat. 3. Overall, my vote for this proposal is -0.5. It is not a veto, but I do not like it. Best regards, Konstantin Kolinko - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@tomcat.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@tomcat.apache.org
Re: [PROPOSAL] Tomcat 10: rename language bundles
Am 2020-01-28 um 22:53 schrieb Mark Thomas: On 28/01/2020 21:52, Christopher Schultz wrote: Michael, On 1/28/20 4:08 PM, Michael Osipov wrote: Folks, I recently worked on some localization issues and noticed that, in my opinion, these JARs are incorrectly named: tomcat-i18n-cs.jar tomcat-i18n-de.jar tomcat-i18n-es.jar tomcat-i18n-fr.jar tomcat-i18n-ja.jar tomcat-i18n-ko.jar tomcat-i18n-pt-BR.jar tomcat-i18n-ru.jar tomcat-i18n-zh-CN.jar Most people confuse I18N with L10N -- but they are distinct. According to Mozilla [1] Tomcat is internationalized and provides localization with those bundles. As far as I understand that, they should be either tomcat-l10n-.jar or tomcat-nls-.jar NLS (native language support), for those who are familiar with LC_MESSAGES and gettext/libintl or similar. I don't know wether this can be backported to 8.5 or 9.0 due to file renames, but should be an issue with 10. [1] https://blog.mozilla.org/l10n/2011/12/14/i18n-vs-l10n-whats-the-diff/ Comments? +0 This is mostly a matter of style, but you are correct, i18n is inaccurat e. It does mean changing the Maven co-ordinates. While I agree the current naming is wrong, is it wrong enough to break things for upgrading users? Yes, it does mean to change the artifact id, but consider that people will receive them at most as transitive dependency, and the change is proposed for 10 where everthing is still in flux. It is an acceptable change for that version. For 8.5+ it is for the community to decide. I will provide a PR for 10+ only. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@tomcat.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@tomcat.apache.org
Re: [PROPOSAL] Tomcat 10: rename language bundles
On 28/01/2020 21:52, Christopher Schultz wrote: > Michael, > > On 1/28/20 4:08 PM, Michael Osipov wrote: >> Folks, > >> I recently worked on some localization issues and noticed that, in >> my opinion, these JARs are incorrectly named: > >>> tomcat-i18n-cs.jar tomcat-i18n-de.jar tomcat-i18n-es.jar >>> tomcat-i18n-fr.jar tomcat-i18n-ja.jar tomcat-i18n-ko.jar >>> tomcat-i18n-pt-BR.jar tomcat-i18n-ru.jar tomcat-i18n-zh-CN.jar > >> Most people confuse I18N with L10N -- but they are distinct. >> According to Mozilla [1] Tomcat is internationalized and provides >> localization with those bundles. As far as I understand that, they >> should be > >> either tomcat-l10n-.jar or tomcat-nls-.jar > >> NLS (native language support), for those who are familiar with >> LC_MESSAGES and gettext/libintl or similar. > >> I don't know wether this can be backported to 8.5 or 9.0 due to >> file renames, but should be an issue with 10. > >> [1] >> https://blog.mozilla.org/l10n/2011/12/14/i18n-vs-l10n-whats-the-diff/ > >> Comments? > > +0 > > This is mostly a matter of style, but you are correct, i18n is inaccurat > e. It does mean changing the Maven co-ordinates. While I agree the current naming is wrong, is it wrong enough to break things for upgrading users? Mark - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@tomcat.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@tomcat.apache.org
Re: [PROPOSAL] Tomcat 10: rename language bundles
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 Michael, On 1/28/20 4:08 PM, Michael Osipov wrote: > Folks, > > I recently worked on some localization issues and noticed that, in > my opinion, these JARs are incorrectly named: > >> tomcat-i18n-cs.jar tomcat-i18n-de.jar tomcat-i18n-es.jar >> tomcat-i18n-fr.jar tomcat-i18n-ja.jar tomcat-i18n-ko.jar >> tomcat-i18n-pt-BR.jar tomcat-i18n-ru.jar tomcat-i18n-zh-CN.jar > > Most people confuse I18N with L10N -- but they are distinct. > According to Mozilla [1] Tomcat is internationalized and provides > localization with those bundles. As far as I understand that, they > should be > > either tomcat-l10n-.jar or tomcat-nls-.jar > > NLS (native language support), for those who are familiar with > LC_MESSAGES and gettext/libintl or similar. > > I don't know wether this can be backported to 8.5 or 9.0 due to > file renames, but should be an issue with 10. > > [1] > https://blog.mozilla.org/l10n/2011/12/14/i18n-vs-l10n-whats-the-diff/ > > Comments? +0 This is mostly a matter of style, but you are correct, i18n is inaccurat e. - -chris -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - https://www.enigmail.net/ iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEMmKgYcQvxMe7tcJcHPApP6U8pFgFAl4wrRcACgkQHPApP6U8 pFj7kw//TJVjXb2fdCDF8M51vHqGkw4HG8nq6rZPWXFS1+G01htVreAWBoXBpedb ck0XA5hj2kV31iO+DN8cHxpcCP1xQGs39u8Xq3Dx03MhW3Tr+cE9ST0rjT2Qc5Ok q/Z/KBUBKVp5/Vy4fI1e7mdbCfNeCyP99upRTg+xzEwV00B48P2k6VPm5VbvO4Ys z+TDf9QwybbWYaAa9ySR743rCNhcT6U83PrjfrC7V5HSVhNGkLhIE+rfEeZcbUv6 PIk+kL1DtPITnNzzV5apkvGFStHK/5xOw5de0Zw7qXsKfL7+v6pnhB5Vsylg3qUr S3cDHfMGS7omwDmvgSovMQm8OsP3/gzQqaS3EujDBpLmJNcYoFjnquq5bBV5YOc+ K+7p/TsI1/IZnCyHjvmfrOYGP7SwgKp76xVt+GxscAteM8DMq79gWIzK9bYyGPfd lXzk7tEH8WWLdPeFK93CukJ9jPfxcu3YFwdQDxLCWUJBzlfSLUXaqdzeWtFA3VUM 15lNYZz04gWaLvchcWKoD9l+AaO6sXkYa60F26012Ug7SAxX6U/Pp2yNoQQsaQK5 CEbWTfjMBSh2XkXnlR+ITqmsuxbIPGCtHGS5MdnEHk5xBawMQ6uAq98qNM+VbdJG pRVGpF7ej6TUMeX/jvHuDJ5bwJ3qs3ruOfI8vDZ2GMk0Q8WQKdg= =2p4q -END PGP SIGNATURE- - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@tomcat.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@tomcat.apache.org
[PROPOSAL] Tomcat 10: rename language bundles
Folks, I recently worked on some localization issues and noticed that, in my opinion, these JARs are incorrectly named: tomcat-i18n-cs.jar tomcat-i18n-de.jar tomcat-i18n-es.jar tomcat-i18n-fr.jar tomcat-i18n-ja.jar tomcat-i18n-ko.jar tomcat-i18n-pt-BR.jar tomcat-i18n-ru.jar tomcat-i18n-zh-CN.jar Most people confuse I18N with L10N -- but they are distinct. According to Mozilla [1] Tomcat is internationalized and provides localization with those bundles. As far as I understand that, they should be either tomcat-l10n-.jar or tomcat-nls-.jar NLS (native language support), for those who are familiar with LC_MESSAGES and gettext/libintl or similar. I don't know wether this can be backported to 8.5 or 9.0 due to file renames, but should be an issue with 10. [1] https://blog.mozilla.org/l10n/2011/12/14/i18n-vs-l10n-whats-the-diff/ Comments? Michael - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@tomcat.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@tomcat.apache.org
