Web APIs documentation/evangelism/dev meeting Thursday at 8 AM PDT

[Eric Shepherd]

The Web API documentation community meeting, with representatives from
the technical evangelism and the API development teams, will take place
on Thursday at 8 AM Pacific Time (see http://bit.ly/1GghwBR for your
time zone).

Typical meetings include news about recent API development progress and
future development plans, discussions about what the priorities for
documenting and promoting new Web technologies should be, and the status
of ongoing work to document and evangelize these technologies.

We have an agenda, as well as details on how to join, here:

https://etherpad.mozilla.org/API-docs-meeting-2015-09-24.

If you have topics you wish to discuss, please feel free to add them to
the agenda.

We look forward to seeing you there!

If you have topics you wish to discuss, please feel free to add them to
the agenda. Also, if you're unable to attend but have information or
suggestions related to APIs on the Web, their documentation, and how we
promote these APIs, please add a note or item to the agenda so we can be
sure to address it, even if you're unable to attend.


-- 

Eric Shepherd
Senior Technical Writer
Mozilla 
Blog: http://www.bitstampede.com/
Twitter: http://twitter.com/sheppy
Check my Availability 
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"non-missable" events, or multi-promises

[Zibi Braniecki]

There seem to be an interesting section in Promises doc from 2001 about 
multi-state promises - 
https://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/promises-guide#state-transitions

One of the things that we are working on is a spec for loading localization 
resources into HTML, which resembles the example from this chapter.

I was thinking about something like:

linkElement.ready((resource) => {
  console.log(resource.text());
});

and make when the language changes, I'd update the url in the link and the 
callback would get called again when its loaded.

Is there any evolution of that proposal?
What's the current thinking about solving such cases?

zb.
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Editbugs access for Chromium bug tracking

[Robert O'Callahan]

Courtesy of Rick Byers, who is promoting an increased focus on interop
within Blink/Chromium, it's now possible for "trusted" Mozilla developers
to get editbugs access to Chromium's bug tracker, initially just a small
number of us. I just got granted access. So if you want access, let me know
and we'll see about getting it for you. If you just want something specific
done in their bug tracker, I can proxy that for you.

Rob
-- 
"He was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are
healed. We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his
own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all." [Isaiah
53:5-6]
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Re: Firefox Nightly keeps crashing on Windows 10

[Dhon Buenaventura]

https://crash-stats.mozilla.com/report/index/bp-b55094f8-2046-43d1-8ca7-17eb42150923
https://crash-stats.mozilla.com/report/index/bp-6b654016-533d-47ec-b593-937972150923
https://crash-stats.mozilla.com/report/index/bp-b30c14dc-d6e4-4919-9e0d-9b1fc2150923
https://crash-stats.mozilla.com/report/index/bp-02a7bb2e-be6b-478e-97a5-562a52150921

On Tue, Sep 22, 2015 at 11:40 AM, Jeff Muizelaar 
wrote:

> Can you post some links from your about:crashes?
>
> -Jeff
>
> On Mon, Sep 21, 2015 at 7:31 PM, Dhon Buenaventura 
> wrote:
> > Why does Firefox Nightly keep crashing randomly? I am currently using the
> > latest build but I still experience random crashes.
> > ___
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Re: Firefox Nightly keeps crashing on Windows 10

[Bobby Holley]

Looks like people are trying to track this down in:
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1206107

They just landed a patch to mozilla-inbound, which should hit Nightly
either tomorrow or Thursday. Sounds like it's not totally clear if the
patch will fix the crashes, and I'm not sure anyone has actually reproduced
a crash. If you can comment on the bug, you may be able to help them get to
the bottom of it!

Cheers,
bholley

On Tue, Sep 22, 2015 at 8:55 PM, Dhon Buenaventura 
wrote:

>
> https://crash-stats.mozilla.com/report/index/bp-b55094f8-2046-43d1-8ca7-17eb42150923
>
> https://crash-stats.mozilla.com/report/index/bp-6b654016-533d-47ec-b593-937972150923
>
> https://crash-stats.mozilla.com/report/index/bp-b30c14dc-d6e4-4919-9e0d-9b1fc2150923
>
> https://crash-stats.mozilla.com/report/index/bp-02a7bb2e-be6b-478e-97a5-562a52150921
>
> On Tue, Sep 22, 2015 at 11:40 AM, Jeff Muizelaar 
> wrote:
>
> > Can you post some links from your about:crashes?
> >
> > -Jeff
> >
> > On Mon, Sep 21, 2015 at 7:31 PM, Dhon Buenaventura 
> > wrote:
> > > Why does Firefox Nightly keep crashing randomly? I am currently using
> the
> > > latest build but I still experience random crashes.
> > > ___
> > > dev-platform mailing list
> > > dev-platform@lists.mozilla.org
> > > https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-platform
> >
> ___
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Re: "non-missable" events, or multi-promises

[Zibi Braniecki]

On Tuesday, September 22, 2015 at 3:02:21 AM UTC-7, smaug wrote:
> That document is from 2015 ;)

Oh. Fun!

> The example in that chapter is "This property should return the same promise 
> every time it is retrieved, until the image moves backward from the 
> loaded state into the unloaded state. Once that occurs, a new promise is 
> created, representing the next transition to loaded."
> So a new promise would be created.

Oh, ok. So it's basically not the API I'm looking for :(

> Why not use events for that? There is nothing wrong with events , and 
> https://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/promises-guide#when-not-to-use

Events are missable. That means that writing async/lib code where you have to 
be ready to be executed at any point requires the following code:

1) Check if the target is in the fulfilled state
2) If yes, apply logic
3) Set up event listener

With a Promise its:

1) Set a promise on the target
and either:
2a) In the promise callback, set event listener, but only if it's not set yet
or:
2b) Set an event listener now, but guard against double executing when event 
listener and promise are fulfilled at the same time.

This sort of repeatable-promise, would reduce it to:
1) Set the repeatable promise on the target

Sounds like it would make much easier to write async code without logic for 
preventing race conditions.

Is there any other approach to that?
zb.
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Re: Intent to ship: Directory picking and directory drag-and-drop

[Jonas Sicking]

On Tue, Sep 22, 2015 at 11:16 PM, Eric Rescorla  wrote:
>> The api has been extensively discussed with all browser vendors and has
>> changed substantially in response to this
>
> Can you please point me to those changes and to the security analysis?

Security wasn't discussed much in these conversations, and the changes
were all syntactical and didn't affect security. That's not to say
that no one has cared about security or been unaware about the
security implications, it's more due to the fact that any security
aspects here are likely to influence the API or the normative spec
text.

But yes, I agree that we should have the security team look at this feature.

/ Jonas
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Re: Building with pymake is no longer supported

[aesop8813]

2015년 9월 22일 화요일 오후 2시 44분 17초 UTC+9, David Rajchenbach-Teller 님의 말:
> Have you tried
>  ./mach package
> ?
> 
> On 22/09/15 07:09, aesop8...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Hi, Mike
> > 
> > i'm using MozillaBuild 2.0. and to make installer run the command after 
> > build.
> >  
> > ../build/pymake/make.py installer
> > 
> > resulting massages as follows.
> > 
> > c:\mozilla-releases38\config\baseconfig.mk:31:0:Pymake is no longer 
> > supported. P
> > lease upgrade to MozillaBuild 1.9 or newer and build with 'mach' or 
> > 'mozmake'
> > 
> > 
> > how can i solve ?
> > ___
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> > dev-platform@lists.mozilla.org
> > https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-platform
> > 
> 
> 
> -- 
> David Rajchenbach-Teller, PhD
>  Performance Team, Mozilla

It works !! (it seems not installer but just as packager.)
Anyway thanks for thunder response^^, David.
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Re: "non-missable" events, or multi-promises

[smaug]

On 09/22/2015 09:49 AM, Zibi Braniecki wrote:

There seem to be an interesting section in Promises doc from 2001 about 
multi-state promises - 
https://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/promises-guide#state-transitions


That document is from 2015 ;)




One of the things that we are working on is a spec for loading localization 
resources into HTML, which resembles the example from this chapter.

I was thinking about something like:

linkElement.ready((resource) => {
   console.log(resource.text());
});

and make when the language changes, I'd update the url in the link and the 
callback would get called again when its loaded.




The example in that chapter is "This property should return the same promise every time it is retrieved, until the image moves backward from the 
loaded state into the unloaded state. Once that occurs, a new promise is created, representing the next transition to loaded."

So a new promise would be created.



Is there any evolution of that proposal?
What's the current thinking about solving such cases?



Why not use events for that? There is nothing wrong with events , and 
https://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/promises-guide#when-not-to-use




zb.



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Re: Intent to ship: Directory picking and directory drag-and-drop

[Jonathan Watt]

On 22/09/2015 15:46, Anne van Kesteren wrote:

On Mon, Sep 21, 2015 at 5:37 PM, Jonathan Watt  wrote:

2. https://wicg.github.io/directory-upload/proposal.html


It still seems bad that this is not being integrated into whatwg/html
directly.


It's not that this isn't going to happen (I would certainly expect it will), 
it's just that MS's strong preference is to work in WICG at the moment.



A ton of things are basically not defined right now.


Can you file issues for what you see in 
https://github.com/WICG/directory-upload/issues ? I've just been added as an 
editor and can hopefully promptly update the text.



It's
also unclear how this feature should work together with other
proposals that make .files writable and such.


When directory picking .files is required to be null. I'd think it would be up 
to such specs that make .files editable to also make the sequence 
getFilesAndDirectories resolves to editable too.



For a method that returns a promise, part of its definition says "If
the input type is not "file", nothing occurs." which doesn't really
mean anything.


Yeah, I already noted that in:

  https://github.com/WICG/directory-upload/issues/13

and now that I can edit the text I'll fix that up shortly.


This draft is a good sketch, but it's not a specification from which
we can create long term interoperable implementations.


If you can file the issues you see (or ping me on IRC) hopefully we can fill in 
the gaps to make it so.


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Re: Intent to ship: Directory picking and directory drag-and-drop

[Eric Rescorla]

On Tue, Sep 22, 2015 at 7:07 AM, Jonas Sicking  wrote:

>
> On Sep 21, 2015 11:57, "Eric Rescorla"  wrote:
> >
> > On Mon, Sep 21, 2015 at 11:23 AM, Jonas Sicking 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> Note that this, similarly to clipboard integration, is already exposed
> >> to the web through flash. So the main goal of this feature is to
> >> enable developers to migrate off of flash and instead use Gecko.
> >
> >
> > I'm not sure that this is the right standard. The reason that we are
> removing
> > Flash is that people are sad about some things in Flash. So I think we
> need
> > to replicate enough of Flash to get people to stop using it, but that
> doesn't
> > mean we need to have it be bug-for-bug compatible with every feature
> Flash
> > has, including features we think are bad.
>
> There are spec drafts written for most of this feature, with remaining
> parts on the way.
>
To the extent to which you're referring to:
https://wicg.github.io/directory-upload/proposal.html

I find it notable that it does not contain any security section, or to the
extent I can determine, even the word "security".

The api has been extensively discussed with all browser vendors and has
> changed substantially in response to this
>
Can you please point me to those changes and to the security analysis?

-Ekr
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Re: Intent to ship: Directory picking and directory drag-and-drop

[Jonathan Watt]

On 22/09/2015 00:27, Richard Barnes wrote:

On Mon, Sep 21, 2015 at 6:58 PM, Jonathan Watt  wrote:

I don't think directory picking is bad - there are many sites with
legitimate uses. I think it's right that we need to think about the
security implications though, and members of the security team have been
looped in to consider these issues.



Who have you been talking to on the security team?  I haven't heard any
discussion of this in our security engineering meetings.  And I share EKR's
concerns here.


Yourself, dveditz and Jesse have all commented in the bug.

https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=907707

When I said "looped in to consider these issues" that's what I meant.

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Re: Intent to ship: Directory picking and directory drag-and-drop

[Jet Villegas]

It looks like most of the Security discussion is happening in this bug now:
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=907707

--Jet

On Mon, Sep 21, 2015 at 9:18 PM, Eric Rescorla  wrote:

> On Mon, Sep 21, 2015 at 8:48 PM, Eric Shepherd 
> wrote:
>
> > Eric Rescorla wrote:
> >
> > I think there are some fairly obvious issues here, including:
> >
> > - There are obvious sensitive files you shouldn't upload under
> >   basically any conditions.
> > - It's hard for the client to know what the implications of any directory
> > upload are
> >   because they may not know what's in a given directory.
> >
> > I'm not a big fan of "the user is stupid and we have to protect him" as
> an
> > argument. :)
> >
>
> Conveniently, that's not what I said. There's lots of stuff that's in
> people's directories
> that they're not readily aware of, including dotfiles, missaves, etc.
>
>
>
> > There are a lot of genuinely valid use cases for this feature; yes,
> > security concerns should definitely be considered, but it's important to
> be
> > clear that if you want to address security concerns, or kill off the
> > feature entirely.
> >
>
> What's needed here is a real security assessment. That might lead to some
> sort of security mediations, and might also lead to the conclusion that it
> needs
> to be killed. But the first thing to do is an assessment. So far I haven't
> seen
> one.
>
> -Ekr
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Re: Intent to ship: Directory picking and directory drag-and-drop

[Jonas Sicking]

On Sep 21, 2015 11:57, "Eric Rescorla"  wrote:
>
> On Mon, Sep 21, 2015 at 11:23 AM, Jonas Sicking  wrote:
>>
>> Note that this, similarly to clipboard integration, is already exposed
>> to the web through flash. So the main goal of this feature is to
>> enable developers to migrate off of flash and instead use Gecko.
>
>
> I'm not sure that this is the right standard. The reason that we are
removing
> Flash is that people are sad about some things in Flash. So I think we
need
> to replicate enough of Flash to get people to stop using it, but that
doesn't
> mean we need to have it be bug-for-bug compatible with every feature Flash
> has, including features we think are bad.

There are spec drafts written for most of this feature, with remaining
parts on the way. The api has been extensively discussed with all browser
vendors and has changed substantially in response to this.

/ Jonas
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Re: Intent to ship: Directory picking and directory drag-and-drop

[Jonas Sicking]

On Sep 21, 2015 11:57, "Eric Rescorla"  wrote:
>
> On Mon, Sep 21, 2015 at 11:23 AM, Jonas Sicking  wrote:
>>
>> Note that this, similarly to clipboard integration, is already exposed
>> to the web through flash. So the main goal of this feature is to
>> enable developers to migrate off of flash and instead use Gecko.
>
>
> I'm not sure that this is the right standard. The reason that we are
removing
> Flash is that people are sad about some things in Flash. So I think we
need
> to replicate enough of Flash to get people to stop using it, but that
doesn't
> mean we need to have it be bug-for-bug compatible with every feature Flash
> has, including features we think are bad.

Sure, I agree that we shouldn't copy all of flash. But this is a feature
requested both by developers and users (again, like clipboard integration)
so I do think that this is a feature that we should copy.

/ Jonas
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Re: Intent to ship: Directory picking and directory drag-and-drop

[Anne van Kesteren]

On Mon, Sep 21, 2015 at 5:37 PM, Jonathan Watt  wrote:
> 2. https://wicg.github.io/directory-upload/proposal.html

It still seems bad that this is not being integrated into whatwg/html
directly. A ton of things are basically not defined right now. It's
also unclear how this feature should work together with other
proposals that make .files writable and such.

For a method that returns a promise, part of its definition says "If
the input type is not "file", nothing occurs." which doesn't really
mean anything.

This draft is a good sketch, but it's not a specification from which
we can create long term interoperable implementations.


-- 
https://annevankesteren.nl/
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Re: Intent to ship: Directory picking and directory drag-and-drop

[Anne van Kesteren]

On Tue, Sep 22, 2015 at 4:46 PM, Anne van Kesteren  wrote:
> This draft is a good sketch, but it's not a specification from which
> we can create long term interoperable implementations.

E.g., it claims  to build on the FileSystem API, but defines an
additional path member on Directory without mentioning why that is
done. And nobody (until I just did it) raised an issue on that. The
draft also doesn't define the directory content attribute at all as
far as I can tell, although the examples do assume it does
something... And that's just from a couple of minutes review.


-- 
https://annevankesteren.nl/
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