Re: Proposed W3C Charter: Timed Text Working Group

[L. David Baron]

On Thursday 2018-05-17 10:14 +0200, L. David Baron wrote:
> On Thursday 2018-05-03 16:57 -0700, L. David Baron wrote:
> > On Thursday 2018-05-03 08:56 +0200, Anne van Kesteren wrote:
> > > On Thu, May 3, 2018 at 12:42 AM, L. David Baron  wrote:
> > > >   Timed Text Working Group
> > > >   https://www.w3.org/2018/04/proposed-tt-charter-2018.html
> > > 
> > > What does
> > > 
> > > # The Group is expected to produce annual updates for the Recommendation
> > > # with previously unspecified features.
> > > 
> > > mean?
> > 
> > I think it means that the group is supposed to publish a new
> > Recommendation each year (i.e., do maintenance work on the spec),
> > and can add new features to each one, all within the current
> > charter.  I admit "previously unspecified features" is awkward
> > wording, though.
> 
> My inclination is to abstain from the charter review with the
> following comments:
> 
> -
> 
> There's one thing that's worded in a somewhat strange way in the
> charter.  There's a sentence saying:
>   The Group is expected to produce annual updates for the
>   Recommendation with previously unspecified features.
> I think this is intended to mean that the group is expected to have
> a maintenance process that produces new versions of WebVTT annually,
> and that these new versions may add new features.  It may be worth
> rewording this to avoid the somewhat unclear "previously unspecified
> features".
> 
> We also suggest the other minor fixes:
> 1. https://github.com/w3c/charter-timed-text/pull/30
> 2. fix spelling "Recommandation" -> "Recommendation" (twice)
> 
> -

And since there are some other questions about our implementation
plans, for those questions I've written:

-

The reviewer's organization:
   - intends to review drafts as they are published and send comments.
   - intends to develop experimental implementations and send experience
reports.
   - intends to develop products based on this work.


Comments about the deliverables:
   We expect to review and implement changes to WebVTT at some point; such
work might not be particularly timely relative to when the spec changes are
made.



Comments about implementation schedule:
   We implement WebVTT, although recently our implementation has not been
keeping up with changes in the specification.

-

-David

-- 
턞   L. David Baron http://dbaron.org/   턂
턢   Mozilla  https://www.mozilla.org/   턂
 Before I built a wall I'd ask to know
 What I was walling in or walling out,
 And to whom I was like to give offense.
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Re: Proposed W3C Charter: Timed Text Working Group

[L. David Baron]

On Thursday 2018-05-03 16:57 -0700, L. David Baron wrote:
> On Thursday 2018-05-03 08:56 +0200, Anne van Kesteren wrote:
> > On Thu, May 3, 2018 at 12:42 AM, L. David Baron  wrote:
> > >   Timed Text Working Group
> > >   https://www.w3.org/2018/04/proposed-tt-charter-2018.html
> > 
> > What does
> > 
> > # The Group is expected to produce annual updates for the Recommendation
> > # with previously unspecified features.
> > 
> > mean?
> 
> I think it means that the group is supposed to publish a new
> Recommendation each year (i.e., do maintenance work on the spec),
> and can add new features to each one, all within the current
> charter.  I admit "previously unspecified features" is awkward
> wording, though.

My inclination is to abstain from the charter review with the
following comments:

-

There's one thing that's worded in a somewhat strange way in the
charter.  There's a sentence saying:
  The Group is expected to produce annual updates for the
  Recommendation with previously unspecified features.
I think this is intended to mean that the group is expected to have
a maintenance process that produces new versions of WebVTT annually,
and that these new versions may add new features.  It may be worth
rewording this to avoid the somewhat unclear "previously unspecified
features".

We also suggest the other minor fixes:
1. https://github.com/w3c/charter-timed-text/pull/30
2. fix spelling "Recommandation" -> "Recommendation" (twice)

-

(I'm suggesting an abstention because I think we support the WebVTT
work but not the TTML/IMSC work.  That said, we also haven't had the
resources to be involved in that work lately.)

-David

-- 
턞   L. David Baron http://dbaron.org/   턂
턢   Mozilla  https://www.mozilla.org/   턂
 Before I built a wall I'd ask to know
 What I was walling in or walling out,
 And to whom I was like to give offense.
   - Robert Frost, Mending Wall (1914)


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Re: Proposed W3C Charter: Timed Text Working Group

[L. David Baron]

On Thursday 2018-05-03 08:56 +0200, Anne van Kesteren wrote:
> On Thu, May 3, 2018 at 12:42 AM, L. David Baron  wrote:
> >   Timed Text Working Group
> >   https://www.w3.org/2018/04/proposed-tt-charter-2018.html
> 
> What does
> 
> # The Group is expected to produce annual updates for the Recommendation
> # with previously unspecified features.
> 
> mean?

I think it means that the group is supposed to publish a new
Recommendation each year (i.e., do maintenance work on the spec),
and can add new features to each one, all within the current
charter.  I admit "previously unspecified features" is awkward
wording, though.

-David

-- 
턞   L. David Baron http://dbaron.org/   턂
턢   Mozilla  https://www.mozilla.org/   턂
 Before I built a wall I'd ask to know
 What I was walling in or walling out,
 And to whom I was like to give offense.
   - Robert Frost, Mending Wall (1914)


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Re: Proposed W3C Charter: Timed Text Working Group

[Anne van Kesteren]

On Thu, May 3, 2018 at 12:42 AM, L. David Baron  wrote:
>   Timed Text Working Group
>   https://www.w3.org/2018/04/proposed-tt-charter-2018.html

What does

# The Group is expected to produce annual updates for the Recommendation
# with previously unspecified features.

mean?


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Proposed W3C Charter: Timed Text Working Group

[L. David Baron]

The W3C is proposing a revised charter for:

  Timed Text Working Group
  https://www.w3.org/2018/04/proposed-tt-charter-2018.html
  https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-new-work/2018Apr/0003.html

Mozilla has the opportunity to send comments or objections through
Thursday, May 17.

The changes relative to the previous charter are:
https://services.w3.org/htmldiff?doc1=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2016%2F05%2Ftimed-text-charter.html=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2018%2F04%2Fproposed-tt-charter-2018.html

This working group is reponsible for both TTML (and XML-based and
XSL-FO-based format that we do not support) and WebVTT (an HTML- and
CSS-based format that we do support).

Please reply to this thread if you think there's something we should
say as part of this charter review, or if you think we should
support or oppose it.

-David

-- 
턞   L. David Baron http://dbaron.org/   턂
턢   Mozilla  https://www.mozilla.org/   턂
 Before I built a wall I'd ask to know
 What I was walling in or walling out,
 And to whom I was like to give offense.
   - Robert Frost, Mending Wall (1914)


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Re: Proposed W3C Charter: Timed Text Working Group

[remtemalj]

Tru DAT
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Re: Proposed W3C Charter: Timed Text Working Group

[Ralph Giles]

I'm not sure there's much to say here. I think we should remain
uninterested in the TTML efforts. Work to define translation from
CEA608 and CEA708 to WebVTT is worthwhile, and I'd like to see it
supported. Unfortunately our interest in WebVTT has been mostly
theoretical recently, so I don't see us contributing to it.

 -r
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Proposed W3C Charter: Timed Text Working Group

[L. David Baron]

The W3C is proposing a charter for:

  Timed Text Working Group
  http://w3c.github.io/charter-drafts/timed-text-charter-2016.html
  https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-new-work/2016Apr/0010.html

  The diff between this charter and the group's previous charter is:
  
http://services.w3.org/htmldiff?doc1=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2014%2F03%2Ftimed-text-charter.html=http%3A%2F%2Fw3c.github.io%2Fcharter-drafts%2Ftimed-text-charter-2016.html

Mozilla has the opportunity to send comments or objections through
Friday, May 13.

Please reply to this thread if you think there's something we should
say as part of this charter review.

-David

-- 
턞   L. David Baron http://dbaron.org/   턂
턢   Mozilla  https://www.mozilla.org/   턂
 Before I built a wall I'd ask to know
 What I was walling in or walling out,
 And to whom I was like to give offense.
   - Robert Frost, Mending Wall (1914)


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Re: Proposed W3C Charter: Timed Text Working Group (WebVTT and TTML)

[Robin Berjon]

On 22/03/2014 07:30 , L. David Baron wrote:

I'm inclined to think that it's not worth putting up a massive fight
over the group's organization here, which I think is what it would
take to change this plan.  I think I'd rather focus the bandwidth of
our communication with W3C management on other issues.


I haven't tracked this group very closely, but my understanding is that 
the idea really is to operate as two subgroups, with the common venue 
mostly useful to ensure maximal IP coverage and workable conversion to 
WebVTT for people who have a large stake in TTML.



(On the other
hand, I think it is worth listening to the real needs of producers
who have large libraries of captions that they'd like to convert to
WebVTT.)


It really is. There is a *lot* of high quality TTML content that 
currently isn't available on the Web. Making sure that it can be 
liberated would be very useful.



I suppose I should at least send late feedback over the decision
process, and perhaps also that there should be more mention of the
working group operating as two subgroups than Teleconferences:
Weekly for TTML, and as needed for WebVTT.


I think you'll be better off speaking directly to the group's chairs and 
team contacts than bringing further feedback into WBS.


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Re: Proposed W3C Charter: Timed Text Working Group (WebVTT and TTML)

[L. David Baron]

On Monday 2014-03-17 13:31 -0400, Richard Eyre wrote:
 Thanks for adding me Anne, you did get my email correct :-).
 
 Personally, I'm not interested in developing TTML. I still agree to all the
 points from our previous discussion from the page you linked, Anne.
 
 I'm not really sure whether having a joint working group would be of
 benefit, particularly if there isn't interest in developing TTML in the
 WebVTT community, which from my experience is the case. It also scares me a
 bit because having a joint group might result in WebVTT being modified for
 TTML specific reasons, such as better interoperability, or otherwise,
 (possibly?) which wouldn't be good for the spec moving forward due to our
 previous concerns.

Sorry for not catching up on this thread until it's too late, but
anyway:

I'm inclined to think that it's not worth putting up a massive fight
over the group's organization here, which I think is what it would
take to change this plan.  I think I'd rather focus the bandwidth of
our communication with W3C management on other issues.

I think if the group goes off into the weeds, it's worth putting up
a fight over that, primarily in the group itself.  (On the other
hand, I think it is worth listening to the real needs of producers
who have large libraries of captions that they'd like to convert to
WebVTT.)

I suppose I should at least send late feedback over the decision
process, and perhaps also that there should be more mention of the
working group operating as two subgroups than Teleconferences:
Weekly for TTML, and as needed for WebVTT.

-David

 On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 9:42 AM, Anne van Kesteren ann...@annevk.nl wrote:
 
  On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 7:56 AM, L. David Baron dba...@dbaron.org wrote:
   The W3C is proposing a revised charter for:
  
 Timed Text Working Group
 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-new-work/2014Feb/0004.html
 http://www.w3.org/2013/10/timed-text-charter.html
 deadline for comments: March 20
  
   This new charter is quite substantive, in that it recharters a
   working group that was previously only for TTML to now be to develop
   both TTML and WebVTT.  My understanding is that the two halves of
   the group are expected to operate somewhat separately but also
   interact, although the charter doesn't seem to say that explicitly.
  
   Mozilla has the opportunity to send comments or objections through
   March 20.  Please reply to this thread if you think there's
   something we should say.
 
  So we commented pretty strongly against this in the past:
 
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2013May/0034.html
 
  Has something changed?
 
 
  (Not sure I got the correct email address for Rick, I found it on old
  archived email from a year ago.)
 
 
  --
  http://annevankesteren.nl/
 

-- 
턞   L. David Baron http://dbaron.org/   턂
턢   Mozilla  https://www.mozilla.org/   턂
 Before I built a wall I'd ask to know
 What I was walling in or walling out,
 And to whom I was like to give offense.
   - Robert Frost, Mending Wall (1914)


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Re: Proposed W3C Charter: Timed Text Working Group (WebVTT and TTML)

[Anne van Kesteren]

On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 7:56 AM, L. David Baron dba...@dbaron.org wrote:
 The W3C is proposing a revised charter for:

   Timed Text Working Group
   http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-new-work/2014Feb/0004.html
   http://www.w3.org/2013/10/timed-text-charter.html
   deadline for comments: March 20

 This new charter is quite substantive, in that it recharters a
 working group that was previously only for TTML to now be to develop
 both TTML and WebVTT.  My understanding is that the two halves of
 the group are expected to operate somewhat separately but also
 interact, although the charter doesn't seem to say that explicitly.

 Mozilla has the opportunity to send comments or objections through
 March 20.  Please reply to this thread if you think there's
 something we should say.

So we commented pretty strongly against this in the past:

  http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2013May/0034.html

Has something changed?


(Not sure I got the correct email address for Rick, I found it on old
archived email from a year ago.)


-- 
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Re: Proposed W3C Charter: Timed Text Working Group (WebVTT and TTML)

[Richard Eyre]

Thanks for adding me Anne, you did get my email correct :-).

Personally, I'm not interested in developing TTML. I still agree to all the
points from our previous discussion from the page you linked, Anne.

I'm not really sure whether having a joint working group would be of
benefit, particularly if there isn't interest in developing TTML in the
WebVTT community, which from my experience is the case. It also scares me a
bit because having a joint group might result in WebVTT being modified for
TTML specific reasons, such as better interoperability, or otherwise,
(possibly?) which wouldn't be good for the spec moving forward due to our
previous concerns.

Rick


On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 9:42 AM, Anne van Kesteren ann...@annevk.nl wrote:

 On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 7:56 AM, L. David Baron dba...@dbaron.org wrote:
  The W3C is proposing a revised charter for:
 
Timed Text Working Group
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-new-work/2014Feb/0004.html
http://www.w3.org/2013/10/timed-text-charter.html
deadline for comments: March 20
 
  This new charter is quite substantive, in that it recharters a
  working group that was previously only for TTML to now be to develop
  both TTML and WebVTT.  My understanding is that the two halves of
  the group are expected to operate somewhat separately but also
  interact, although the charter doesn't seem to say that explicitly.
 
  Mozilla has the opportunity to send comments or objections through
  March 20.  Please reply to this thread if you think there's
  something we should say.

 So we commented pretty strongly against this in the past:

   http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2013May/0034.html

 Has something changed?


 (Not sure I got the correct email address for Rick, I found it on old
 archived email from a year ago.)


 --
 http://annevankesteren.nl/

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Proposed W3C Charter: Timed Text Working Group (WebVTT and TTML)

[L. David Baron]

The W3C is proposing a revised charter for:

  Timed Text Working Group
  http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-new-work/2014Feb/0004.html
  http://www.w3.org/2013/10/timed-text-charter.html
  deadline for comments: March 20

This new charter is quite substantive, in that it recharters a
working group that was previously only for TTML to now be to develop
both TTML and WebVTT.  My understanding is that the two halves of
the group are expected to operate somewhat separately but also
interact, although the charter doesn't seem to say that explicitly.

Mozilla has the opportunity to send comments or objections through
March 20.  Please reply to this thread if you think there's
something we should say.

-David

-- 
턞   L. David Baron http://dbaron.org/   턂
턢   Mozilla   http://www.mozilla.org/   턂


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