Re: Over 14K 'Let's Encrypt' SSL Certificates Issued To PayPal Phishing Sites

2017-03-30 Thread Nick Lamb via dev-security-policy
Doesn't Chrome's behaviour already "penalise" plaintext HTTP? You can't build a 
login form, or use shiny new features.

We aren't where we'd ideally be, everybody is agreed about that. That's not the 
same thing as agreeing our direction of travel is wrong.

I am far from home reduced to using mobile devices, or I'd do it myself but I 
recommend someone try to measure the proximate cause of these certificates. 
Unlike with earlier "free" certs the advent of ACME means hosts are throwing in 
certs with hosting, I suspect that some sizeable fraction of the 14k were 
issued on this basis. If so phishers may not even be using the HTTPS feature, 
any more than they'd have used free vouchers for discounted T-shirts if the 
host included those. So 14k becomes a measure not of criminal interest in TLS 
certificates but of the success of full automation in bulk hosting combined 
with the high turnover of phishing sites.
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Re: Over 14K 'Let's Encrypt' SSL Certificates Issued To PayPal Phishing Sites

2017-03-30 Thread Hector Martin via dev-security-policy
On 2017-03-30 23:30, Alex Gaynor via dev-security-policy wrote:
>>> 1. HTTP
>>> 2. "I explicitly asked for security and didn't get it" (HTTPS with no
>>> validation)
>>> 3. HTTPS
> 
> You're not wrong that (2) is better than (1). It's also indistinguishable
> from a downgrade attack from (3).

But so is (1) if the URI didn't come from somewhere that already
requested HTTPS. Enter HSTS, etc. Ultimately, yes, ideally we'd have had
something like HSTS levels for each trust level, plus matching URI
schemes or some other way of requesting a minimum trust level in the URI.

> If we got to do the web all over again, I think we'd make the UX for (1)
> have an interstitial, or just not exist. Unfortunately, we're paying down
> two decades of technical debt :-)

Indeed. This is something that was a day 1 design flaw in HTTPS (with
the UX as implemented). The moment you start throwing up big scary
warnings for self-signed certs and not for HTTP, you've lost, because
the people with certs aren't going to want to become susceptible to
downgrade attacks. Though browser makers have progressively made this
worse by making the warning scarier and scarier.

Ah well, we are where we are. I'm grateful I can finally nuke a couple
random personal CAs and just Let's Encrypt everything, with HSTS. With
any luck browsers will start significantly penalizing the HTTP UX and
we'll finally get on the path to ubiquitous encryption.

-- 
Hector Martin (mar...@marcan.st)
Public Key: https://mrcn.st/pub
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Re: Over 14K 'Let's Encrypt' SSL Certificates Issued To PayPal Phishing Sites

2017-03-29 Thread Ryan Sleevi via dev-security-policy
On Wed, Mar 29, 2017 at 7:30 AM, Hector Martin via dev-security-policy <
dev-security-policy@lists.mozilla.org> wrote:

> We actually have *five* levels of trust here:
>
> 1. HTTP
> 2. HTTPS with no validation (self-signed or anonymous ciphersuite)
> 3. HTTPS with DV
> 4. HTTPS with OV
> 5. HTTPS with EV
>

No, we actually only have three levels.

1. HTTP
2. "I explicitly asked for security and didn't get it" (HTTPS with no
validation)
3. HTTPS

Obvious answer? Make (1)-(2) big scary red, (3) neutral, (4) green, (5)
> full EV banner. (a) still correlates reasonably well with (4) and (5).
> HTTPS is no longer optional. All those phishing sites get a neutral URL
> bar. We've already educated users that their bank needs a green lock in the
> URL.


And that was a mistake - one which has been known since the very
introduction of EV in the academic community, but sadly, like Cassandra,
was not heeded.

http://www.adambarth.com/papers/2008/jackson-barth-b.pdf should be required
reading for anyone who believes OV or EV objectively improves security,
because it explains how since the very beginning of browsers support for
SSL/TLS (~1995), there's been a security policy at place that determines
equivalence - the Same Origin Policy.

While the proponents of SSL/TLS then - and now - want certificates to be
Something More, the reality has been that, from the get-go, the only
boundary has been the Origin.

I think the general community here would agree that making HTTPS simple and
ubiquitous is the goal, and efforts by CAs - commercial and non-commercial
- towards those efforts, whether it be through making certificates more
affordable to obtain or simpler to install or easier to support - are
well-deserving of praise.

But if folks want OV/EV, then they also have to accept there needs to be an
origin boundary, like Barth/Jackson originally called for in 2008
(httpsev://), and that any downtrust in that boundary needs to be blocked
(similar to mixed content blocking of https -> http, as those degrade the
effective assurance). Further, it seems as if it would be necessary to
obtain the goals of 4, 5, or (a) that the boundary be 'not just'
httpsev://, but somehow bound to the organization itself - an
origin-per-organization, if you will.

And that, at its core, is fundamentally opposed to how the Web was supposed
to and does work. Which is why (4), (5), and (a) are unreasonable and
unrealistic goals, despite having been around for over 20 years, and no new
solutions have been put forward since Barth/Jackson called out the obvious
one nearly a decade ago, which no one was interested in.
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Re: Over 14K 'Let's Encrypt' SSL Certificates Issued To PayPal Phishing Sites

2017-03-29 Thread mono.riot--- via dev-security-policy
> Not for those sorts of differences. There are in an IDN context:
> http://unicode.org/reports/tr39/

wasn't aware of that TS, thanks!
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Re: Over 14K 'Let's Encrypt' SSL Certificates Issued To PayPal Phishing Sites

2017-03-29 Thread Hector Martin via dev-security-policy

On 28/03/17 08:23, Peter Gutmann via dev-security-policy wrote:

Martin Heaps via dev-security-policy  
writes:


This topic is frustrating in that there seems to be a wide attempt by people
to use one form of authentication (DV TLS) to verify another form of
authentication (EV TLS).


The overall problem is that browser vendors have decreed that you can't have
encryption unless you have a certificate, i.e. a CA-supplied magic token to
turn the crypto on.  Let's Encrypt was an attempt to kludge around this by
giving everyone one of these magic tokens.  Like a lot of other kludges, it
had negative consequences...


It's not a kludge, though. Let's Encrypt is not (merely) a workaround 
for the fact that self-signed certificates are basically considered 
worthless. If it were, it wouldn't meet BR rules. Let's Encrypt actively 
performs validation of domains, and in that respect is as legitimate as 
any other DV CA.


We actually have *five* levels of trust here:

1. HTTP
2. HTTPS with no validation (self-signed or anonymous ciphersuite)
3. HTTPS with DV
4. HTTPS with OV
5. HTTPS with EV

These are technically objective levels of trust (mostly). There is also 
a technically subjective tangential attribute:


a. Is not a phishing or malicious site.

Let's Encrypt aims to obsolete levels 1 and 2 by making 3 ubiquitously 
accessible.


The problem is that browser vendors have historically treated trust as 
binary, confounding (3), (4), and (a), mostly because the ecosystem at 
the time made it hard to get (3) without meeting (a). They also 
inexplicably treated (2) as worse than (1), which is of course nonsense, 
but I guess was driven by some sort of backwards thinking that "if you 
have security at all, you'd better have good security" (or, 
equivalently: "normal people don't need security, and a mediocre attempt 
at security implies Bad Evil Things Are Happening").


With time, certificates have become more accessible, everyone has come 
to agree that we all need security, and with that, that thinking has 
become obsolete. Getting a DV cert for a phishing site was by no means 
hard before Let's Encrypt. Now that Let's Encrypt is here, it's trivial.



So it's now being actively exploited... how could anyone *not* see this
coming?  How can anyone actually be surprised that this is now happening?  As
the late Bob Jueneman once said on the PKIX list (over a different PKI-related
topic), "it's like watching a train wreck in slow motion, one freeze-frame at
a time".  It's pre-ordained what's going to happen, the most you can do is
artificially delay its arrival.


And this question should be directed at browser vendors. After years of 
mistakenly educating users that "green lock = good, safe, secure, 
awesome, please type in all your passwords", how could they *not* see 
this coming?



The end nessecity is that the general public need to be educated [...]


Quoting Vesselin Bontchev, "if user education was going to work, it would have
worked by now".  And that was a decade ago.


This is strictly a presentation layer problem. We *know* what the 
various trust levels mean. We need to present them in a way that is 
*useful* to users.


Obvious answer? Make (1)-(2) big scary red, (3) neutral, (4) green, (5) 
full EV banner. (a) still correlates reasonably well with (4) and (5). 
HTTPS is no longer optional. All those phishing sites get a neutral URL 
bar. We've already educated users that their bank needs a green lock in 
the URL.


--
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Re: Over 14K 'Let's Encrypt' SSL Certificates Issued To PayPal Phishing Sites

2017-03-28 Thread Gervase Markham via dev-security-policy
On 27/03/17 23:15, mono.r...@gmail.com wrote:
> Are there general proposals yet on how to distinguish phishing vs
> legitimate when it comes to domains? (like apple.com vs app1e.com vs
> mom'n'pop farmer's myapple.com)

Not for those sorts of differences. There are in an IDN context:
http://unicode.org/reports/tr39/

Gerv

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Re: Over 14K 'Let's Encrypt' SSL Certificates Issued To PayPal Phishing Sites

2017-03-28 Thread Florian Weimer via dev-security-policy
* mono riot:

>> I've been wondering if CT is a good tool for things like safe
>> browsing to monitor possible phishing sites and possibly detect
>> them faster.
>
> Are there general proposals yet on how to distinguish phishing vs
> legitimate when it comes to domains? (like apple.com vs app1e.com vs
> mom'n'pop farmer's myapple.com)

If there was a general rule, people would game the system, making the
rule useless.

In general, recognizing malicious web content requires looking at said
content.  It is not possible to go by the domain name alone.
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Re: Over 14K 'Let's Encrypt' SSL Certificates Issued To PayPal Phishing Sites

2017-03-27 Thread Matt Palmer via dev-security-policy
On Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 10:16:52PM +0200, Kurt Roeckx via dev-security-policy 
wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 09:02:48PM +0100, Gervase Markham via 
> dev-security-policy wrote:
> > On 27/03/17 16:08, Martin Heaps wrote:
> > > The next level is now that any business or high valued entity should
> > > over the course of the next few years implement EV certificates (many
> > > already have) and that browsers should make EV certificates MORE
> > > noticable on websites..
> > 
> > or we should decide that the phishing problem is not best solved at
> > the level of certificates, but instead at a higher level (e.g. Safe
> > Browsing and similar mechanisms).
> 
> I've been wondering if CT is a good tool for things like safe
> browsing to monitor possible phishing sites and possibly detect
> them faster.

I'm about 100% sure that having a pre-populated list of sites that are
likely to be used for URL-confusion phishing would be a valuable thing for
systems like safe browsing to implement.

- Matt

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Re: Over 14K 'Let's Encrypt' SSL Certificates Issued To PayPal Phishing Sites

2017-03-27 Thread mono.riot--- via dev-security-policy
> I've been wondering if CT is a good tool for things like safe
> browsing to monitor possible phishing sites and possibly detect
> them faster.

Are there general proposals yet on how to distinguish phishing vs legitimate 
when it comes to domains? (like apple.com vs app1e.com vs mom'n'pop farmer's 
myapple.com)

Thanks,

Nico
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Re: Over 14K 'Let's Encrypt' SSL Certificates Issued To PayPal Phishing Sites

2017-03-27 Thread Peter Gutmann via dev-security-policy
Martin Heaps via dev-security-policy  
writes:

>This topic is frustrating in that there seems to be a wide attempt by people
>to use one form of authentication (DV TLS) to verify another form of
>authentication (EV TLS).

The overall problem is that browser vendors have decreed that you can't have
encryption unless you have a certificate, i.e. a CA-supplied magic token to
turn the crypto on.  Let's Encrypt was an attempt to kludge around this by
giving everyone one of these magic tokens.  Like a lot of other kludges, it
had negative consequences...

So it's now being actively exploited... how could anyone *not* see this
coming?  How can anyone actually be surprised that this is now happening?  As
the late Bob Jueneman once said on the PKIX list (over a different PKI-related
topic), "it's like watching a train wreck in slow motion, one freeze-frame at
a time".  It's pre-ordained what's going to happen, the most you can do is
artificially delay its arrival.

>The end nessecity is that the general public need to be educated [...]

Quoting Vesselin Bontchev, "if user education was going to work, it would have
worked by now".  And that was a decade ago.

Peter.
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Re: Over 14K 'Let's Encrypt' SSL Certificates Issued To PayPal Phishing Sites

2017-03-27 Thread Kurt Roeckx via dev-security-policy
On Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 09:02:48PM +0100, Gervase Markham via 
dev-security-policy wrote:
> On 27/03/17 16:08, Martin Heaps wrote:
> > The next level is now that any business or high valued entity should
> > over the course of the next few years implement EV certificates (many
> > already have) and that browsers should make EV certificates MORE
> > noticable on websites..
> 
> or we should decide that the phishing problem is not best solved at
> the level of certificates, but instead at a higher level (e.g. Safe
> Browsing and similar mechanisms).

I've been wondering if CT is a good tool for things like safe
browsing to monitor possible phishing sites and possibly detect
them faster.


Kurt

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Re: Over 14K 'Let's Encrypt' SSL Certificates Issued To PayPal Phishing Sites

2017-03-27 Thread Gervase Markham via dev-security-policy
On 27/03/17 16:08, Martin Heaps wrote:
> The next level is now that any business or high valued entity should
> over the course of the next few years implement EV certificates (many
> already have) and that browsers should make EV certificates MORE
> noticable on websites..

or we should decide that the phishing problem is not best solved at
the level of certificates, but instead at a higher level (e.g. Safe
Browsing and similar mechanisms).

Gerv
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Re: Over 14K 'Let's Encrypt' SSL Certificates Issued To PayPal Phishing Sites

2017-03-27 Thread Martin Heaps via dev-security-policy
This topic is frustrating in that there seems to be a wide attempt by people to 
use one form of authentication (DV TLS) to verify another form of 
authentication (EV TLS). 

There seems an issue for people not being able to understand that a FREE 
service with a vey low bar in knowledge requirement on the part of the end user 
(the website owner) will be used across the spectrum of human achievement (good 
and bad).

Economics: If something costs money, they far fewer people will make use of it, 
this has been (one of) the core reasonings behind "Lets Encrpyt" and other free 
SSL service providers. 

Education: If something requires a skill and background knowledge to work 
properly and correctly then far fewer people will be willing to deploy it 
across their websites.

The next level is now that any business or high valued entity should over the 
course of the next few years implement EV certificates (many already have) and 
that browsers should make EV certificates MORE noticable on websites. 

BUT:
The end nessecity is that the general public need to be educated that a 
"secure" website does not mean an "authenticated" business, person or 
organisation. The general public needs to be aware of the difference between a 
DV and EV certificate. 

The community has spent meany years trying to highlight that lack of secure 
SSL/TLS for websites, that now it's in place, the community needs to highlight 
the different *Types* of certificates available and what they mean for the 
website visitor.

In addition I think this topic seems to be highlighted as an excuse by parties 
who (for some reason) don't like Lets Encrypt and similar services and want to 
use it as a way for people who don't understand what DV TLS actually does, to 
use it to draw attention to others who do not know what DV TLS does, to 
highlight that Lets Encrypt is somehow Bad or Evil for providing a secure 
service for nefarious websites.

Some ideas:

1) Browsers can gradually make the EV certificates more prominent, something 
such as first time a site is visited with an EV certificate that a popup notice 
appears declaring the name and address of the owner of the site. 

2) Websites themselves need to deploy better Content Security Policy practises. 
Very few websites seem to be using CSP despite it being a very powerful and 
flexible tool for preventing any site masqurading as another by "borrowing" 
their media and contents.  

3) There could be a system of word recognition / repetition count for something 
such as browse plugins to detect websites that use the "Paypal" word for 
instance above a certain level and then notifying the user the site is NOT an 
actual paypal domain.

(sorry, I'm sure most of you reading this are well aware of the details, I 
wanted a bit of a vent)
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Re: Over 14K 'Let's Encrypt' SSL Certificates Issued To PayPal Phishing Sites

2017-03-26 Thread Vincent Lynch via dev-security-policy
Hi David,

I am the author of the research discussed in that Bleeping Computer post..

Your post is a bit brief, so I'm not sure if you are just sharing news, or
wanted to discuss a certain aspect of this story or topic.

So I will just share some general thoughts:



1. The most important thing to note is that Let's Encrypt has not violated
any issuance requirements by issuing these certificates.

The debate over malicious sites using SSL is certainly a popular topic, and
while many regularly discuss whether this is right or wrong,  there is no
such ambiguity in policy.

The CA/B Forum's Baseline Requirements (which set forth issuance practices
for CAs) do *not* forbid issuing certificates to phishing sites, or require
certificates for such sites to be revoked.

There is a section in the Baseline Requirements (BRs) about "high-risk"
certificate requests, which some cite and interpret as applying to this
situation. However, that section of the BRs is incredibly vague and does
not lay out any specific requirements.

The only relevant requirements a CA may need to follow would come from a
root program. For instance, Microsoft's root program includes a stipulation
that they may request a CA to revoke a certificate.

I don't think it's publicly known how often Microsoft exercises that rule.
But I am not aware of any cases where Let's Encrypt has ignored such
requests, and I highly doubt they would as the risks to their organization
would be obvious.



2. The topic of malicious certs has been thoroughly discussed by the
industry. These discussions have already taken place on this list, such as
this one:

https://groups.google.com/d/topic/mozilla.dev.security.polic
y/vMrncPi3tx8/discussion



Not to be rude to anyone, but I strongly suggest reading that those before
starting off on a new discussion, as most points have already been made and
debated.



3. After reading (and participating) in many discussions about the use of
SSL on malicious sites and CAs "policing" the content/purpose of websites,
it is clear to me that this is an issue that we will never come to an
ideological consensus on as an industry. So we must defer to the rules,
which do not forbid such a practice and are unlikely to ever be changed.

While I personally believe there are some changes that could be made to
improve current practices, it is more important to recognize that this is
simply an area where meaningful cooperation is not possible. Instead of
using up more time (and stressing relationships) on this debate, we should
look to make improvements in other areas of Web PKI where we can find
consensus.




I think my research is useful in quantifying and showing the scale of SSL
use on phishing sites; and for security UX/user safety/user education
discussions, I think this should be considered. But overall, I hope that
people will not re-start a debate here over whether Let's Encrypt should be
dis-trusted or whether its acceptable to issue such certificates.


On Sun, Mar 26, 2017 at 1:14 PM Adam Caudill via dev-security-policy <
dev-security-policy@lists.mozilla.org> wrote:

> Much has been written about this issue of late; most of the focus has been
> on Let's Encrypt, but they are not the only CA issuing certificates to
> phishing sites, though because of the scale Let's Encrypt operates at, they
> issue the most, and thus take most of the heat.
>
> One of the better articles on the topic is this one by Scott Helme, which
> is well worth reading:
>
> https://scotthelme.co.uk/lets-encrypt-are-enabling-the-bad-
> guys-and-why-they-should/
>
> DV certificates only prove control of a domain, not who operates it, or if
> it should be trusted. To try to read anything more into it is a mistake;
> this applies to all CAs issuing DV certificates, not just those issued by
> Let's Encrypt.
>
> The goal many share is to achieve near-ubiquitous TLS use to minimize
> insecure traffic as much as possible. To achieve that goal, the barrier to
> entry needs to be minimal, which means freely available DV certificates.
> Let's Encrypt issues certificates to anyone that can prove control of a
> domain (with few restrictions), and as with most other forms of secure
> communications, this means not everyone that uses it will have honest
> intentions. That is simply the cost of achieving ubiquitous encryption.
>
> Some have suggested a significant change to how browsers display status:
> display a warning for HTTP, and show HTTPS with a DV certificate as neutral
> (handling of OV & EV certificates in such an arrangement is more
> contentious). This would help to eliminate the erroneous feeling some have
> that certificates impart trust.
>
>
> On Sun, Mar 26, 2017 at 11:53 AM David E. Ross via dev-security-policy <
> dev-security-policy@lists.mozilla.org> wrote:
>
> > The subject is the title of a Slashdot article posted today.  The
> > article can be accessed at
> > <
> 

Re: Over 14K 'Let's Encrypt' SSL Certificates Issued To PayPal Phishing Sites

2017-03-26 Thread Adam Caudill via dev-security-policy
Much has been written about this issue of late; most of the focus has been
on Let's Encrypt, but they are not the only CA issuing certificates to
phishing sites, though because of the scale Let's Encrypt operates at, they
issue the most, and thus take most of the heat.

One of the better articles on the topic is this one by Scott Helme, which
is well worth reading:

https://scotthelme.co.uk/lets-encrypt-are-enabling-the-bad-guys-and-why-they-should/

DV certificates only prove control of a domain, not who operates it, or if
it should be trusted. To try to read anything more into it is a mistake;
this applies to all CAs issuing DV certificates, not just those issued by
Let's Encrypt.

The goal many share is to achieve near-ubiquitous TLS use to minimize
insecure traffic as much as possible. To achieve that goal, the barrier to
entry needs to be minimal, which means freely available DV certificates.
Let's Encrypt issues certificates to anyone that can prove control of a
domain (with few restrictions), and as with most other forms of secure
communications, this means not everyone that uses it will have honest
intentions. That is simply the cost of achieving ubiquitous encryption.

Some have suggested a significant change to how browsers display status:
display a warning for HTTP, and show HTTPS with a DV certificate as neutral
(handling of OV & EV certificates in such an arrangement is more
contentious). This would help to eliminate the erroneous feeling some have
that certificates impart trust.


On Sun, Mar 26, 2017 at 11:53 AM David E. Ross via dev-security-policy <
dev-security-policy@lists.mozilla.org> wrote:

> The subject is the title of a Slashdot article posted today.  The
> article can be accessed at
> <
> https://it.slashdot.org/story/17/03/25/246/over-14k-lets-encrypt-ssl-certificates-issued-to-paypal-phishing-sites
> >.
>
>
> The article contains two links.  One is to a Bleeping Computer article
> that gives more detail.
>
> The other link is to a Let's Encrypt page where that certification
> authority states:> Let’s Encrypt is going to be issuing Domain
> Validation (DV)
> > certificates. On a technical level, a DV certificate asserts that a
> > public key belongs to a domain – it says nothing else about a site’s
> > content or who runs it. DV certificates do not include any
> > information about a website’s reputation, real-world identity, or
> > safety. To me, this means that certificates can be freely issued to
> criminal
> enterprises.
>
> --
> David E. Ross
> 
>
> Consider:
> *  Most state mandate that drivers have liability insurance.
> *  Employers are mandated to have worker's compensation insurance.
> *  If you live in a flood zone, flood insurance is mandatory.
> *  If your home has a mortgage, fire insurance is mandatory.
>
> Why then is mandatory health insurance so bad??
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>
-- 

--*Adam Caudill*
http://adamcaudill.com
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