Re: DataStax role in Cassandra and the ASF

2016-11-07 Thread Ross Gardler
na1...@gmail.com> Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2016 8:30:20 AM To: Jim Jagielski Cc: dev@cassandra.apache.org; Łukasz Dywicki; Chris Mattmann; Kelly Sommers; Apache Board Subject: Re: DataStax role in Cassandra and the ASF No it wasn't. You're citing the eventual and agreed upon outcome. I was t

Re: DataStax role in Cassandra and the ASF

2016-11-06 Thread Bertrand Delacretaz
Hi, On Sat, Nov 5, 2016 at 4:30 PM, Jeremy Hanna wrote: > ...It is also apparently much more apparent in the private threads which > apparently > the PMC can make public I have not followed all discussions about this so sorry if you already got this information

Re: DataStax role in Cassandra and the ASF

2016-11-06 Thread Jim Jagielski
You are saying the the "nature of the communication as unnecessarily antagonistic" and that I think it is necessary. Neither of those are accurate. I do not characterize it as "antagonistic" nor necessary. > On Nov 6, 2016, at 1:39 PM, Jeffrey Jirsa wrote: > > Everything you

Re: DataStax role in Cassandra and the ASF

2016-11-06 Thread Jeffrey Jirsa
Everything you said is accurate, and I don¹t think anyone¹s debating that. What I¹m hoping to convey is the method of communication is such that a SIGNIFICANT number of people interpret the nature of the communication as unnecessarily antagonistic. You seem to think it¹s necessary, but the

Re: DataStax role in Cassandra and the ASF

2016-11-06 Thread Jim Jagielski
Some clarification. Basically, there had been issues w/ DataStax and the PMC for a long, long time. It came somewhat to a head in Aug when there was a PR/Email about the "Cassandra Summit" with nary a mention of Apache at all. None. This was after months and months in trying to get DataStax to

Re: DataStax role in Cassandra and the ASF

2016-11-06 Thread Jim Jagielski
And, as a reminder, this is my email in its entirety. Note how when show in full, it is hardly the nefarious posting one would have assumed from the small cutting shared so far. """ I've seen such issues come up before... The problem is not, per se, that the issues pop up; it happens and

Re: DataStax role in Cassandra and the ASF

2016-11-06 Thread Jeff Jirsa
Now that I have clarity on what can and can't be relayed to the community / dev@, I'm going to reply to this email, and then I suspect I'm done for today, because I'd rather watch football than reply to this anymore. On Sat, Nov 5, 2016 at 6:30 AM, Mark Struberg

Re: DataStax role in Cassandra and the ASF

2016-11-05 Thread Łukasz Dywicki
Dear Jeff and discussion participants, Plase find my replies in line. > From Jeff Jirsa w dniu 5 lis 2016, o godz. 17:37: > The thesis of your pasted gist is that you tried to contribute and were > pushed away. You hypothesize that it's done with lack of will to pull in > other

Re: DataStax role in Cassandra and the ASF

2016-11-05 Thread Aleksey Yeschenko
I’d say they are interwoven with inappropriate passages that should have never been typed, and *all of them* came from ASF board members. I feel like it would be in the interest of Apache Cassandra, and the greater Apache community, to expose the way the board treats its volunteer PMC and

Re: DataStax role in Cassandra and the ASF

2016-11-05 Thread Edward Capriolo
On Sat, Nov 5, 2016 at 12:37 PM, Jeff Jirsa wrote: > My first reaction to seeing this come in was to laugh - not because it's > funny, but because the only other thing I could think to do was cry. You've > misinterpreted or misunderstood almost everything in this post, and

Re: DataStax role in Cassandra and the ASF

2016-11-05 Thread Marvin Humphrey
On Sat, Nov 5, 2016 at 7:44 AM, Benedict Elliott Smith wrote: > All I am demanding is that these "not public" actions be made > "open" and public, inline with ASF ideals. All of us on the Board feel very strongly about conversations happening in public -- in harmony with

Re: DataStax role in Cassandra and the ASF

2016-11-05 Thread Ross Gardler
oard <bo...@apache.org>; Łukasz Dywicki <l...@code-house.org>; Chris Mattmann <mattm...@apache.org>; Kelly Sommers <kell.somm...@gmail.com>; Jim Jagielski <j...@jagunet.com> Subject: Re: DataStax role in Cassandra and the ASF Where are the board's guidelines then,

Re: DataStax role in Cassandra and the ASF

2016-11-05 Thread Jeff Jirsa
My first reaction to seeing this come in was to laugh - not because it's funny, but because the only other thing I could think to do was cry. You've misinterpreted or misunderstood almost everything in this post, and instead of reflecting on your side of the interaction, you've attributed the

Re: DataStax role in Cassandra and the ASF

2016-11-05 Thread Benedict Elliott Smith
Thanks Jeff, that was very well put. I would quibble on one point, though: the ship has never sailed on topics of community. How the board acts towards the PMC and companies in the community matters a great deal for continuing relations, as well as for other projects. The question is: did the

Re: DataStax role in Cassandra and the ASF

2016-11-05 Thread Jeremy Hanna
Ultimately it doesn't matter now. The project has a bright future with the involvement of all individuals regardless of the company they work for. That's the important thing. > On Nov 5, 2016, at 10:30 AM, Jeremy Hanna wrote: > > No it wasn't. You're citing the

Re: DataStax role in Cassandra and the ASF

2016-11-05 Thread Jeff Jirsa
I'm going to attempt to give the most complete answer I can without posting comments that were said with the expectation of privacy - it's not my place to violate that expectation. Some things discussed here are things I wouldn't typically mention in public (notably the topic of trademark

Re: DataStax role in Cassandra and the ASF

2016-11-05 Thread Jeremy Hanna
No it wasn't. You're citing the eventual and agreed upon outcome. I was talking about the approach which is clear in the dev and user list threads that the board was involved in. It is also apparently much more apparent in the private threads which apparently the PMC can make public. > On Nov

Re: DataStax role in Cassandra and the ASF

2016-11-05 Thread Jim Jagielski
Which is what was done: https://whimsy.apache.org/board/minutes/Cassandra.html > On Nov 5, 2016, at 10:48 AM, Jeremy Hanna wrote: > > If the ASF is at risk with a single company allowed to dominate a project > then why couldn't the approach have been something like:

Re: DataStax role in Cassandra and the ASF

2016-11-05 Thread Jim Jagielski
Please note that, yes, at time, there are discussion between the PMC and the board which are done either or the board@ list or in "private" on private@. This is between the board and the PMC, of course. However, why does it fall to the *board* to then bring that conversation to "the public".

Re: DataStax role in Cassandra and the ASF

2016-11-05 Thread Jeff Jirsa
I agree - thanks for sending it, Lukasz. I think we can use it as a great learning opportunity - because nearly every point you made I find to be factually and objectively wrong, and the fact that members of the ASF take it at face value is part of the problem - poorly informed opinions on

Re: DataStax role in Cassandra and the ASF

2016-11-05 Thread Jeremy Hanna
ls that the board acted inappropriately. Don’t >>> waste time with long emails to board@. The people here trust in the process >>> and the board. We don’t know what’s been happening inside your project, we >>> don’t pass judgement. To make us care you must have

Re: DataStax role in Cassandra and the ASF

2016-11-05 Thread Benedict Elliott Smith
ard of 9 rather than 5 (or any other smaller number) it minimizes the > chances of error. It’s also why the board is usually slower to move than > one might expect. > >>>> > >>>>However, should the board make a mistake the correct action is to get > the communit

Re: DataStax role in Cassandra and the ASF

2016-11-05 Thread Mark Struberg
gt;>>>expect. >>>> >>>>However, should the board make a mistake the correct action is to get the >>>>community as a whole to express their concern. Demonstrate that the >>>>community, as a whole, feels that the board acted inappropria

Re: DataStax role in Cassandra and the ASF

2016-11-05 Thread Benedict Elliott Smith
strate that you have consensus around > your opinions. Then, and only then, will the membership - the people who > vote for the board and hold them accountable – accept your argument that > the board have acted inappropriately. > >> > >>Ross > >> > >&g

Re: DataStax role in Cassandra and the ASF

2016-11-05 Thread Mark Struberg
hold them accountable – accept your argument that the board have acted >>inappropriately. >> >>Ross >> >>From: Benedict Elliott Smith [mailto:bened...@apache.org] >>Sent: Friday, November 4, 2016 7:08 PM >>To: dev@cassandra.apache.org >>C

RE: DataStax role in Cassandra and the ASF

2016-11-04 Thread Ross Gardler
ielski <j...@jagunet.com> Subject: Re: DataStax role in Cassandra and the ASF Where are the board's guidelines then, or do they make it up as they go? Flame wars are a risk of every public forum and discussion, and doing everything in public is one of the tenets of the ASF. Jim Jag

Re: DataStax role in Cassandra and the ASF

2016-11-04 Thread Jeremy Hanna
"I’m sorry you had a bad experience, but it feels like that’s the normal ebb and flow of projects.” I’m sorry - that should have been - I’m sorry some ideas were not accepted, but it feels like that’s the normal ebb and flow of projects. I am sorry you had a bad experience - without any

Re: DataStax role in Cassandra and the ASF

2016-11-04 Thread Jeremy Hanna
Hi Łukasz, I’m sorry you found the projects difficult to work with. It sounds like in this case it was about modularizing with Maven and making TinkerPop work better with OSGI. People in the project have been going back and forth about the build process since before Riptano and DataStax

Re: DataStax role in Cassandra and the ASF

2016-11-04 Thread Benedict Elliott Smith
Where are the board's guidelines then, or do they make it up as they go? Flame wars are a risk of every public forum and discussion, and doing everything in public is one of the tenets of the ASF. Jim Jagielski stated to me on twitter that a bare minimum of discussions happen in private, and did

Re: DataStax role in Cassandra and the ASF

2016-11-04 Thread Tom Barber
You know you've linked to a PMC page, when the board isn't a PMC? For example, board member a, thinks project X isn't doing things correctly and their first course of action is to post notes on a public development mailing list? You'd have arguments and flame wars left right and centre. Having

Re: DataStax role in Cassandra and the ASF

2016-11-04 Thread Aleksey Yeschenko
I have a feeling that you didn’t even bother to check out the mailing list threads that Łukasz linked to. I encourage you, and others, to first do so, instead of blindly assuming that their content is inappropriate. --  AY On 5 November 2016 at 00:14:42, Chris Mattmann (mattm...@apache.org)

Re: DataStax role in Cassandra and the ASF

2016-11-04 Thread Jeff Jirsa
Note also the work on https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-9459 , reaching out to other “competitors” before major versions to ensure compatibility and awareness. I think there’s a ton of evidence supporting the assertion that datastax-employed committers and PMC members acted in

Re: DataStax role in Cassandra and the ASF

2016-11-04 Thread Aleksey Yeschenko
You got this one completely wrong, my friend. It’s the PMC who reached out to stratio and helped them get the changes they required into Cassandra, so that they could abandon the fork. I know because I was that PMC member. cc Andres from Stratio --  AY On 5 November 2016 at 00:14:42, Chris

Re: DataStax role in Cassandra and the ASF

2016-11-04 Thread Benedict Elliott Smith
This discussion is bundling up two issues: 1) Did DataStax have an outsized role on the project which needed to be offset, preferably with increased participation? 2) Did the Board behave reasonably in trying to fix it? As far as I can tell the answers are 1) Yes, 2) No Can the board please

Re: DataStax role in Cassandra and the ASF

2016-11-04 Thread Chris Mattmann
Thank you for sending this. I am not going to reply in depth now, but will do so to Kelly and others over the weekend, but this is *precisely* the reason that I have been so emphatic about trying to get the PMC to see the road they have already gone done and the ship that has already set sail.

Re: DataStax role in Cassandra and the ASF

2016-11-04 Thread Łukasz Dywicki
Good evening, I feel myself a bit called to table by both Kelly and Chris. Thing is I don’t know personally nor have any relationship with both of you. I’m not even ASF member. My tweet was simply reaction for Kelly complaints about ASF punishing out DataStax. Kelly timeline also contained

Re: DataStax role in Cassandra and the ASF

2016-11-04 Thread Edward Capriolo
On Thu, Nov 3, 2016 at 11:44 PM, Kelly Sommers wrote: > I think the community needs some clarification about what's going on. > There's a really concerning shift going on and the story about why is > really blurry. I've heard all kinds of wild claims about what's going

Re: DataStax role in Cassandra and the ASF

2016-11-04 Thread Michael Kjellman
And to add one additional thought to follow up: I generally am personally motivated to fix problems and bugs that reduce my chance of getting paged at 3am in the morning. This is important for my mental health but also for the perceived stability of our products (obviously). Features are

Re: DataStax role in Cassandra and the ASF

2016-11-04 Thread Michael Kjellman
"Avalon. The database" yes autocorrect. That's exactly what I wanted. That should read "scaling the database and stability." Sorry. I'm typing this while walking up a big ass hill in San Francisco heading to the office.  Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 4, 2016, at 10:31 AM, Michael Kjellman

Re: DataStax role in Cassandra and the ASF

2016-11-04 Thread Michael Kjellman
Hi Kelly- I can't speak to many of your questions as it's not my position to do so. What I can say is that at Apple we are doubling down on open source. We have tons of code in flight -- really big ones in fact -- many already out for review. Our list of enhancements we want to do grows all