Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2016 8:30:20 AM
To: Jim Jagielski
Cc: email@example.com; Łukasz Dywicki; Chris Mattmann; Kelly Sommers;
Subject: Re: DataStax role in Cassandra and the ASF
No it wasn't. You're citing the eventual and agreed upon outcome. I was t
On Sat, Nov 5, 2016 at 4:30 PM, Jeremy Hanna wrote:
> ...It is also apparently much more apparent in the private threads which
> the PMC can make public
I have not followed all discussions about this so sorry if you already
got this information
You are saying the the "nature of the communication as unnecessarily
antagonistic" and that I think it is necessary.
Neither of those are accurate. I do not characterize it
as "antagonistic" nor necessary.
> On Nov 6, 2016, at 1:39 PM, Jeffrey Jirsa wrote:
> Everything you
Everything you said is accurate, and I don¹t think anyone¹s debating that.
What I¹m hoping to convey is the method of communication is such that a
SIGNIFICANT number of people interpret the nature of the communication as
unnecessarily antagonistic. You seem to think it¹s necessary, but the
Basically, there had been issues w/ DataStax and the PMC for a long,
long time. It came somewhat to a head in Aug when there was
a PR/Email about the "Cassandra Summit" with nary a mention
of Apache at all. None.
This was after months and months in trying to get DataStax to
And, as a reminder, this is my email in its entirety. Note
how when show in full, it is hardly the nefarious posting
one would have assumed from the small cutting shared so far.
I've seen such issues come up before...
The problem is not, per se, that the issues pop up; it happens and
Now that I have clarity on what can and can't be relayed to the community /
dev@, I'm going to reply to this email, and then I suspect I'm done for
today, because I'd rather watch football than reply to this anymore.
On Sat, Nov 5, 2016 at 6:30 AM, Mark Struberg
Dear Jeff and discussion participants,
Plase find my replies in line.
> From Jeff Jirsa w dniu 5 lis 2016, o godz. 17:37:
> The thesis of your pasted gist is that you tried to contribute and were
> pushed away. You hypothesize that it's done with lack of will to pull in
I’d say they are interwoven with inappropriate passages that should have never
and *all of them* came from ASF board members.
I feel like it would be in the interest of Apache Cassandra, and the greater
to expose the way the board treats its volunteer PMC and
On Sat, Nov 5, 2016 at 12:37 PM, Jeff Jirsa wrote:
> My first reaction to seeing this come in was to laugh - not because it's
> funny, but because the only other thing I could think to do was cry. You've
> misinterpreted or misunderstood almost everything in this post, and
On Sat, Nov 5, 2016 at 7:44 AM, Benedict Elliott Smith
> All I am demanding is that these "not public" actions be made
> "open" and public, inline with ASF ideals.
All of us on the Board feel very strongly about conversations happening in
public -- in harmony with
oard <bo...@apache.org>; Łukasz Dywicki <l...@code-house.org>;
Chris Mattmann <mattm...@apache.org>; Kelly Sommers <kell.somm...@gmail.com>;
Jim Jagielski <j...@jagunet.com>
Subject: Re: DataStax role in Cassandra and the ASF
Where are the board's guidelines then,
My first reaction to seeing this come in was to laugh - not because it's
funny, but because the only other thing I could think to do was cry. You've
misinterpreted or misunderstood almost everything in this post, and instead
of reflecting on your side of the interaction, you've attributed the
Thanks Jeff, that was very well put.
I would quibble on one point, though: the ship has never sailed on topics
of community. How the board acts towards the PMC and companies in the
community matters a great deal for continuing relations, as well as for
The question is: did the
Ultimately it doesn't matter now. The project has a bright future with the
involvement of all individuals regardless of the company they work for. That's
the important thing.
> On Nov 5, 2016, at 10:30 AM, Jeremy Hanna wrote:
> No it wasn't. You're citing the
I'm going to attempt to give the most complete answer I can without posting
comments that were said with the expectation of privacy - it's not my place to
violate that expectation. Some things discussed here are things I wouldn't
typically mention in public (notably the topic of trademark
No it wasn't. You're citing the eventual and agreed upon outcome. I was talking
about the approach which is clear in the dev and user list threads that the
board was involved in. It is also apparently much more apparent in the private
threads which apparently the PMC can make public.
> On Nov
Which is what was done: https://whimsy.apache.org/board/minutes/Cassandra.html
> On Nov 5, 2016, at 10:48 AM, Jeremy Hanna wrote:
> If the ASF is at risk with a single company allowed to dominate a project
> then why couldn't the approach have been something like:
Please note that, yes, at time, there are discussion between
the PMC and the board which are done either or the board@ list
or in "private" on private@.
This is between the board and the PMC, of course.
However, why does it fall to the *board* to then bring that
conversation to "the public".
I agree - thanks for sending it, Lukasz. I think we can use it as a great
learning opportunity - because nearly every point you made I find to be
factually and objectively wrong, and the fact that members of the ASF take it
at face value is part of the problem - poorly informed opinions on
ls that the board acted inappropriately. Don’t
>>> waste time with long emails to board@. The people here trust in the process
>>> and the board. We don’t know what’s been happening inside your project, we
>>> don’t pass judgement. To make us care you must have
ard of 9 rather than 5 (or any other smaller number) it minimizes the
> chances of error. It’s also why the board is usually slower to move than
> one might expect.
> >>>>However, should the board make a mistake the correct action is to get
> the communit
>>>>However, should the board make a mistake the correct action is to get the
>>>>community as a whole to express their concern. Demonstrate that the
>>>>community, as a whole, feels that the board acted inappropria
strate that you have consensus around
> your opinions. Then, and only then, will the membership - the people who
> vote for the board and hold them accountable – accept your argument that
> the board have acted inappropriately.
hold them accountable – accept your argument that the board have acted
>>From: Benedict Elliott Smith [mailto:bened...@apache.org]
>>Sent: Friday, November 4, 2016 7:08 PM
Subject: Re: DataStax role in Cassandra and the ASF
Where are the board's guidelines then, or do they make it up as they go? Flame
wars are a risk of every public forum and discussion, and doing everything in
public is one of the tenets of the ASF.
"I’m sorry you had a bad experience, but it feels like that’s the normal ebb
and flow of projects.”
I’m sorry - that should have been - I’m sorry some ideas were not accepted, but
it feels like that’s the normal ebb and flow of projects. I am sorry you had a
bad experience - without any
I’m sorry you found the projects difficult to work with. It sounds like in
this case it was about modularizing with Maven and making TinkerPop work better
with OSGI. People in the project have been going back and forth about the
build process since before Riptano and DataStax
Where are the board's guidelines then, or do they make it up as they go?
Flame wars are a risk of every public forum and discussion, and doing
everything in public is one of the tenets of the ASF.
Jim Jagielski stated to me on twitter that a bare minimum of
discussions happen in private, and did
You know you've linked to a PMC page, when the board isn't a PMC? For
example, board member a, thinks project X isn't doing things correctly and
their first course of action is to post notes on a public development
mailing list? You'd have arguments and flame wars left right and centre.
I have a feeling that you didn’t even bother to check out the mailing list
threads that Łukasz linked to.
I encourage you, and others, to first do so, instead of blindly assuming that
their content is inappropriate.
On 5 November 2016 at 00:14:42, Chris Mattmann (mattm...@apache.org)
Note also the work on https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRA-9459 ,
reaching out to other “competitors” before major versions to ensure
compatibility and awareness.
I think there’s a ton of evidence supporting the assertion that
datastax-employed committers and PMC members acted in
You got this one completely wrong, my friend.
It’s the PMC who reached out to stratio and helped them get the changes they
required into Cassandra,
so that they could abandon the fork.
I know because I was that PMC member.
cc Andres from Stratio
On 5 November 2016 at 00:14:42, Chris
This discussion is bundling up two issues:
1) Did DataStax have an outsized role on the project which needed to be
offset, preferably with increased participation?
2) Did the Board behave reasonably in trying to fix it?
As far as I can tell the answers are 1) Yes, 2) No
Can the board please
Thank you for sending this. I am not going to reply in depth now, but will do
so to Kelly and
others over the weekend, but this is *precisely* the reason that I have been so
about trying to get the PMC to see the road they have already gone done and the
has already set sail.
I feel myself a bit called to table by both Kelly and Chris. Thing is I don’t
know personally nor have any relationship with both of you. I’m not even ASF
member. My tweet was simply reaction for Kelly complaints about ASF punishing
out DataStax. Kelly timeline also contained
On Thu, Nov 3, 2016 at 11:44 PM, Kelly Sommers
> I think the community needs some clarification about what's going on.
> There's a really concerning shift going on and the story about why is
> really blurry. I've heard all kinds of wild claims about what's going
And to add one additional thought to follow up: I generally am personally
motivated to fix problems and bugs that reduce my chance of getting paged at
3am in the morning. This is important for my mental health but also for the
perceived stability of our products (obviously).
"Avalon. The database" yes autocorrect. That's exactly what I wanted.
That should read "scaling the database and stability." Sorry. I'm typing this
while walking up a big ass hill in San Francisco heading to the office.
Sent from my iPhone
> On Nov 4, 2016, at 10:31 AM, Michael Kjellman
I can't speak to many of your questions as it's not my position to do so. What
I can say is that at Apple we are doubling down on open source. We have tons of
code in flight -- really big ones in fact -- many already out for review. Our
list of enhancements we want to do grows all
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