Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace
; forum > > > > (I > > > > > like the idea of using GH discussions) > > > > > > > > > > Besides, we still need to investigate how > > > > >> http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org works, I think > > > > >> a slack of our own can be easier to set up the archive. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is the code used by airflow: > > https://github.com/ashb/slackarchive > > > . > > > > > I'm happy to look into setting up the archive for the community. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, May 12, 2022 at 11:00 AM Jark Wu wrote: > > > > > > > > > >> Hi, > > > > >> > > > > >> I would +1 to create Apache Flink Slack for the lower barriers to > > > entry > > > > >> as Jingsong mentioned. > > > > >> Besides, we still need to investigate how > > > > >> http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org works, I think > > > > >> a slack of our own can be easier to set up the archive. > > > > >> > > > > >> Regarding Discourse vs Slack, I think they are not exclusive, but > > > > >> complementary. > > > > >> Someday in the future, we might be able to provide them both. But > > what > > > > we > > > > >> are seeking today > > > > >> is a tool that can provide real-time communication and ad-hoc > > > questions > > > > >> and interactions. > > > > >> A forum is more similar to a mailing list. Forum is modern mailing > > > list > > > > >> but can't solve the problems > > > > >> mentioned above. With slack-archives, the information and > thoughtful > > > > >> discussion in Slack can also be searchable. > > > > >> > > > > >> I think we can open another thread to discuss creating a forum for > > > Flink > > > > >> and keep this thread focused > > > > >> on Slack. IMO, we can investigate more kinds of forums, for > example > > > > >> GitHub Discussion which is free, powerful > > > > >> and fully-managed. Airflow[1] and Next.JS also use GitHub > > Discussion > > > as > > > > >> their forum. > > > > >> > > > > >> Best, > > > > >> Jark > > > > >> > > > > >> [1]: https://github.com/apache/airflow/discussions > > > > >> [2]: https://github.com/vercel/next.js/discussions > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> On Thu, 12 May 2022 at 15:24, Martijn Visser < > [email protected] > > > > > > > >> wrote: > > > > >> > > > > >>> Hi, > > > > >>> > > > > >>> I would +1 setting up our own Slack. It will allow us to provide > > the > > > > best > > > > >>> experience for those in the community who want to use Slack. > > > > >>> More than happy to help with setting up community guidelines on > how > > > to > > > > >>> use > > > > >>> Slack. > > > > >>> > > > > >>> Best regards, > > > > >>> > > > > >>> Martijn > > > > >>> > > > > >>> On Thu, 12 May 2022 at 05:22, Yun Tang wrote: > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > Hi all, > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > I think forum might be a good choice for search and maintain. > > > > However, > > > > >>> > unlike slack workspace, it seems no existing popular product > > could > > > be > > > > >>> > leveraged easily. > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > Thus, I am +1 to create an Apache Flink slack channel. If the > ASF > > > > slack > > > > >>> > cannot be joined easily for most of users, I prefer to set up > our > > > own > > > > >>> slack > > > > >>> > workspace. > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > Best > > > > >>> > Yun Tang > > > > >>> > -- > > > > >&g
Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace
e, but > > > > >> complementary. > > > > >> Someday in the future, we might be able to provide them both. But > > what > > > > we > > > > >> are seeking today > > > > >> is a tool that can provide real-time communication and ad-hoc > > > questions > > > > >> and interactions. > > > > >> A forum is more similar to a mailing list. Forum is modern mailing > > > list > > > > >> but can't solve the problems > > > > >> mentioned above. With slack-archives, the information and > thoughtful > > > > >> discussion in Slack can also be searchable. > > > > >> > > > > >> I think we can open another thread to discuss creating a forum for > > > Flink > > > > >> and keep this thread focused > > > > >> on Slack. IMO, we can investigate more kinds of forums, for > example > > > > >> GitHub Discussion which is free, powerful > > > > >> and fully-managed. Airflow[1] and Next.JS also use GitHub > > Discussion > > > as > > > > >> their forum. > > > > >> > > > > >> Best, > > > > >> Jark > > > > >> > > > > >> [1]: https://github.com/apache/airflow/discussions > > > > >> [2]: https://github.com/vercel/next.js/discussions > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> On Thu, 12 May 2022 at 15:24, Martijn Visser < > [email protected] > > > > > > > >> wrote: > > > > >> > > > > >>> Hi, > > > > >>> > > > > >>> I would +1 setting up our own Slack. It will allow us to provide > > the > > > > best > > > > >>> experience for those in the community who want to use Slack. > > > > >>> More than happy to help with setting up community guidelines on > how > > > to > > > > >>> use > > > > >>> Slack. > > > > >>> > > > > >>> Best regards, > > > > >>> > > > > >>> Martijn > > > > >>> > > > > >>> On Thu, 12 May 2022 at 05:22, Yun Tang wrote: > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > Hi all, > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > I think forum might be a good choice for search and maintain. > > > > However, > > > > >>> > unlike slack workspace, it seems no existing popular product > > could > > > be > > > > >>> > leveraged easily. > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > Thus, I am +1 to create an Apache Flink slack channel. If the > ASF > > > > slack > > > > >>> > cannot be joined easily for most of users, I prefer to set up > our > > > own > > > > >>> slack > > > > >>> > workspace. > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > Best > > > > >>> > Yun Tang > > > > >>> > -- > > > > >>> > *From:* Jingsong Li > > > > >>> > *Sent:* Thursday, May 12, 2022 10:49 > > > > >>> > *To:* Xintong Song > > > > >>> > *Cc:* dev ; user > > > > >>> > *Subject:* Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack > workspace > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > Hi all, > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > Regarding using ASF slack. I share the problems I saw in the > > Apache > > > > >>> Druid > > > > >>> > community. [1] > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > As you may have heard, it’s become increasingly difficult for > > new > > > > >>> users > > > > >>> > without an @apache.org email address to join the ASF #druid > > Slack > > > > >>> channel. > > > > >>> > ASF Infra disabled the option to publicly provide a link to the > > > > >>> workspace > > > > >>> > to anyone who wanted it, after encountering issues with > spammers. > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > Per Infra
Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace
t; >> I think we can open another thread to discuss creating a forum for > > Flink > > > >> and keep this thread focused > > > >> on Slack. IMO, we can investigate more kinds of forums, for example > > > >> GitHub Discussion which is free, powerful > > > >> and fully-managed. Airflow[1] and Next.JS also use GitHub > Discussion > > as > > > >> their forum. > > > >> > > > >> Best, > > > >> Jark > > > >> > > > >> [1]: https://github.com/apache/airflow/discussions > > > >> [2]: https://github.com/vercel/next.js/discussions > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> On Thu, 12 May 2022 at 15:24, Martijn Visser > > > > >> wrote: > > > >> > > > >>> Hi, > > > >>> > > > >>> I would +1 setting up our own Slack. It will allow us to provide > the > > > best > > > >>> experience for those in the community who want to use Slack. > > > >>> More than happy to help with setting up community guidelines on how > > to > > > >>> use > > > >>> Slack. > > > >>> > > > >>> Best regards, > > > >>> > > > >>> Martijn > > > >>> > > > >>> On Thu, 12 May 2022 at 05:22, Yun Tang wrote: > > > >>> > > > >>> > Hi all, > > > >>> > > > > >>> > I think forum might be a good choice for search and maintain. > > > However, > > > >>> > unlike slack workspace, it seems no existing popular product > could > > be > > > >>> > leveraged easily. > > > >>> > > > > >>> > Thus, I am +1 to create an Apache Flink slack channel. If the ASF > > > slack > > > >>> > cannot be joined easily for most of users, I prefer to set up our > > own > > > >>> slack > > > >>> > workspace. > > > >>> > > > > >>> > Best > > > >>> > Yun Tang > > > >>> > -- > > > >>> > *From:* Jingsong Li > > > >>> > *Sent:* Thursday, May 12, 2022 10:49 > > > >>> > *To:* Xintong Song > > > >>> > *Cc:* dev ; user > > > >>> > *Subject:* Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace > > > >>> > > > > >>> > Hi all, > > > >>> > > > > >>> > Regarding using ASF slack. I share the problems I saw in the > Apache > > > >>> Druid > > > >>> > community. [1] > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > As you may have heard, it’s become increasingly difficult for > new > > > >>> users > > > >>> > without an @apache.org email address to join the ASF #druid > Slack > > > >>> channel. > > > >>> > ASF Infra disabled the option to publicly provide a link to the > > > >>> workspace > > > >>> > to anyone who wanted it, after encountering issues with spammers. > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > Per Infra’s guidance (https://infra.apache.org/slack.html), > new > > > >>> > community > > > >>> > members should only be invited as single-channel guests. > > > Unfortunately, > > > >>> > single-channel guests are unable to extend invitations to new > > > members, > > > >>> > including their colleagues who are using Druid. Only someone with > > > full > > > >>> > member privileges is able to extend an invitation to new members. > > > This > > > >>> lack > > > >>> > of consistency doesn’t make the community feel inclusive. > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > There is a workaround in place ( > > > >>> > https://github.com/apache/druid-website-src/pull/278) – users > can > > > >>> send an > > > >>> > email to [email protected] to request an invite to the > > > Slack > > > >>> > channel from an existing member – but this still poses a barrier > to > > > >>> entry, > > > >>> > and isn’t a viable permanent solution.
Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace
> >>> More than happy to help with setting up community guidelines on how > to > > >>> use > > >>> Slack. > > >>> > > >>> Best regards, > > >>> > > >>> Martijn > > >>> > > >>> On Thu, 12 May 2022 at 05:22, Yun Tang wrote: > > >>> > > >>> > Hi all, > > >>> > > > >>> > I think forum might be a good choice for search and maintain. > > However, > > >>> > unlike slack workspace, it seems no existing popular product could > be > > >>> > leveraged easily. > > >>> > > > >>> > Thus, I am +1 to create an Apache Flink slack channel. If the ASF > > slack > > >>> > cannot be joined easily for most of users, I prefer to set up our > own > > >>> slack > > >>> > workspace. > > >>> > > > >>> > Best > > >>> > Yun Tang > > >>> > -- > > >>> > *From:* Jingsong Li > > >>> > *Sent:* Thursday, May 12, 2022 10:49 > > >>> > *To:* Xintong Song > > >>> > *Cc:* dev ; user > > >>> > *Subject:* Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace > > >>> > > > >>> > Hi all, > > >>> > > > >>> > Regarding using ASF slack. I share the problems I saw in the Apache > > >>> Druid > > >>> > community. [1] > > >>> > > > >>> > > As you may have heard, it’s become increasingly difficult for new > > >>> users > > >>> > without an @apache.org email address to join the ASF #druid Slack > > >>> channel. > > >>> > ASF Infra disabled the option to publicly provide a link to the > > >>> workspace > > >>> > to anyone who wanted it, after encountering issues with spammers. > > >>> > > > >>> > > Per Infra’s guidance (https://infra.apache.org/slack.html), new > > >>> > community > > >>> > members should only be invited as single-channel guests. > > Unfortunately, > > >>> > single-channel guests are unable to extend invitations to new > > members, > > >>> > including their colleagues who are using Druid. Only someone with > > full > > >>> > member privileges is able to extend an invitation to new members. > > This > > >>> lack > > >>> > of consistency doesn’t make the community feel inclusive. > > >>> > > > >>> > > There is a workaround in place ( > > >>> > https://github.com/apache/druid-website-src/pull/278) – users can > > >>> send an > > >>> > email to [email protected] to request an invite to the > > Slack > > >>> > channel from an existing member – but this still poses a barrier to > > >>> entry, > > >>> > and isn’t a viable permanent solution. It also creates potential > > >>> privacy > > >>> > issues as not everyone is at liberty to announce they’re using > Druid > > >>> nor > > >>> > wishes to display their email address in a public forum. > > >>> > > > >>> > [1] > https://lists.apache.org/thread/f36tvfwfo2ssf1x3jb4q0v2pftdyo5z5 > > >>> > > > >>> > Best, > > >>> > Jingsong > > >>> > > > >>> > On Thu, May 12, 2022 at 10:22 AM Xintong Song < > [email protected] > > > > > >>> > wrote: > > >>> > > > >>> > > To make some progress, maybe we decide on chat vs forum vs none > and > > >>> then > > >>> > >> go into a deeper discussion on the implementation or is there > > >>> anything > > >>> > >> about Slack that would be complete blocker for the > implementation? > > >>> > >> > > >>> > > > > >>> > > Sure, then I'd be +1 for chat. From my side, the initiative is > more > > >>> about > > >>> > > making communication more efficient, rather than making > information > > >>> > easier > > >>> > > to find. > > >>>
Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace
Hi all, Chiming in as I work in the Iceberg space and we have our own slack as well, that I am admittedly proud of. We don’t necessarily encounter issues with vendors, though of course we do get some noise now and again. Overall, our slack workspace has been cited in multiple blogs and things as one of the bigger benefits of using Iceberg. So I personally can’t recommend a slack workspace enough. Our slack workspace is also one major thing I feel boosts our ability to attract new contributors and even bug reports we’d otherwise not receive as quickly. A lot of amazing devs / folks out there who maybe don’t see themselves as “prominent” enough but will speak up on slack. So +1 from your friends in Iceberg (at least me). Feel free to reach out if you have any questions! - Kyle On Fri, May 13, 2022 at 10:17 AM Austin Cawley-Edwards < [email protected]> wrote: > Hi all, > > Would just like to share an interesting article from the dbt community[1], > which in part describes some of their challenges in managing Slack in a > large community. The biggest point it seems to make is that their Slack has > become a marketing tool for dbt/data vendors instead of a community space — > given the diversity of vendors in the Flink space, we may face similar > challenges. Perhaps their experience can help us with the initial > setup/guidelines. > > Cheers, > Austin > > [1]: https://pedram.substack.com/p/we-need-to-talk-about-dbt?s=r > > On Thu, May 12, 2022 at 6:04 AM Robert Metzger > wrote: > > > +1 on setting up our own Slack instance (PMC owned) > > +1 for having a separate discussion about setting up a discussion forum > (I > > like the idea of using GH discussions) > > > > Besides, we still need to investigate how > >> http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org works, I think > >> a slack of our own can be easier to set up the archive. > > > > > > This is the code used by airflow: https://github.com/ashb/slackarchive. > > I'm happy to look into setting up the archive for the community. > > > > > > On Thu, May 12, 2022 at 11:00 AM Jark Wu wrote: > > > >> Hi, > >> > >> I would +1 to create Apache Flink Slack for the lower barriers to entry > >> as Jingsong mentioned. > >> Besides, we still need to investigate how > >> http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org works, I think > >> a slack of our own can be easier to set up the archive. > >> > >> Regarding Discourse vs Slack, I think they are not exclusive, but > >> complementary. > >> Someday in the future, we might be able to provide them both. But what > we > >> are seeking today > >> is a tool that can provide real-time communication and ad-hoc questions > >> and interactions. > >> A forum is more similar to a mailing list. Forum is modern mailing list > >> but can't solve the problems > >> mentioned above. With slack-archives, the information and thoughtful > >> discussion in Slack can also be searchable. > >> > >> I think we can open another thread to discuss creating a forum for Flink > >> and keep this thread focused > >> on Slack. IMO, we can investigate more kinds of forums, for example > >> GitHub Discussion which is free, powerful > >> and fully-managed. Airflow[1] and Next.JS also use GitHub Discussion as > >> their forum. > >> > >> Best, > >> Jark > >> > >> [1]: https://github.com/apache/airflow/discussions > >> [2]: https://github.com/vercel/next.js/discussions > >> > >> > >> On Thu, 12 May 2022 at 15:24, Martijn Visser > >> wrote: > >> > >>> Hi, > >>> > >>> I would +1 setting up our own Slack. It will allow us to provide the > best > >>> experience for those in the community who want to use Slack. > >>> More than happy to help with setting up community guidelines on how to > >>> use > >>> Slack. > >>> > >>> Best regards, > >>> > >>> Martijn > >>> > >>> On Thu, 12 May 2022 at 05:22, Yun Tang wrote: > >>> > >>> > Hi all, > >>> > > >>> > I think forum might be a good choice for search and maintain. > However, > >>> > unlike slack workspace, it seems no existing popular product could be > >>> > leveraged easily. > >>> > > >>> > Thus, I am +1 to create an Apache Flink slack channel. If the ASF > slack > >>> > cannot be joined easily for most of users, I prefer to
Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace
Hi all, Would just like to share an interesting article from the dbt community[1], which in part describes some of their challenges in managing Slack in a large community. The biggest point it seems to make is that their Slack has become a marketing tool for dbt/data vendors instead of a community space — given the diversity of vendors in the Flink space, we may face similar challenges. Perhaps their experience can help us with the initial setup/guidelines. Cheers, Austin [1]: https://pedram.substack.com/p/we-need-to-talk-about-dbt?s=r On Thu, May 12, 2022 at 6:04 AM Robert Metzger wrote: > +1 on setting up our own Slack instance (PMC owned) > +1 for having a separate discussion about setting up a discussion forum (I > like the idea of using GH discussions) > > Besides, we still need to investigate how >> http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org works, I think >> a slack of our own can be easier to set up the archive. > > > This is the code used by airflow: https://github.com/ashb/slackarchive. > I'm happy to look into setting up the archive for the community. > > > On Thu, May 12, 2022 at 11:00 AM Jark Wu wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> I would +1 to create Apache Flink Slack for the lower barriers to entry >> as Jingsong mentioned. >> Besides, we still need to investigate how >> http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org works, I think >> a slack of our own can be easier to set up the archive. >> >> Regarding Discourse vs Slack, I think they are not exclusive, but >> complementary. >> Someday in the future, we might be able to provide them both. But what we >> are seeking today >> is a tool that can provide real-time communication and ad-hoc questions >> and interactions. >> A forum is more similar to a mailing list. Forum is modern mailing list >> but can't solve the problems >> mentioned above. With slack-archives, the information and thoughtful >> discussion in Slack can also be searchable. >> >> I think we can open another thread to discuss creating a forum for Flink >> and keep this thread focused >> on Slack. IMO, we can investigate more kinds of forums, for example >> GitHub Discussion which is free, powerful >> and fully-managed. Airflow[1] and Next.JS also use GitHub Discussion as >> their forum. >> >> Best, >> Jark >> >> [1]: https://github.com/apache/airflow/discussions >> [2]: https://github.com/vercel/next.js/discussions >> >> >> On Thu, 12 May 2022 at 15:24, Martijn Visser >> wrote: >> >>> Hi, >>> >>> I would +1 setting up our own Slack. It will allow us to provide the best >>> experience for those in the community who want to use Slack. >>> More than happy to help with setting up community guidelines on how to >>> use >>> Slack. >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> Martijn >>> >>> On Thu, 12 May 2022 at 05:22, Yun Tang wrote: >>> >>> > Hi all, >>> > >>> > I think forum might be a good choice for search and maintain. However, >>> > unlike slack workspace, it seems no existing popular product could be >>> > leveraged easily. >>> > >>> > Thus, I am +1 to create an Apache Flink slack channel. If the ASF slack >>> > cannot be joined easily for most of users, I prefer to set up our own >>> slack >>> > workspace. >>> > >>> > Best >>> > Yun Tang >>> > -- >>> > *From:* Jingsong Li >>> > *Sent:* Thursday, May 12, 2022 10:49 >>> > *To:* Xintong Song >>> > *Cc:* dev ; user >>> > *Subject:* Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace >>> > >>> > Hi all, >>> > >>> > Regarding using ASF slack. I share the problems I saw in the Apache >>> Druid >>> > community. [1] >>> > >>> > > As you may have heard, it’s become increasingly difficult for new >>> users >>> > without an @apache.org email address to join the ASF #druid Slack >>> channel. >>> > ASF Infra disabled the option to publicly provide a link to the >>> workspace >>> > to anyone who wanted it, after encountering issues with spammers. >>> > >>> > > Per Infra’s guidance (https://infra.apache.org/slack.html), new >>> > community >>> > members should only be invited as single-channel guests. Unfortunately, >>> > single-channel guests are unable to extend invitations to new membe
Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace
+1 on setting up our own Slack instance (PMC owned) +1 for having a separate discussion about setting up a discussion forum (I like the idea of using GH discussions) Besides, we still need to investigate how > http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org works, I think > a slack of our own can be easier to set up the archive. This is the code used by airflow: https://github.com/ashb/slackarchive. I'm happy to look into setting up the archive for the community. On Thu, May 12, 2022 at 11:00 AM Jark Wu wrote: > Hi, > > I would +1 to create Apache Flink Slack for the lower barriers to entry as > Jingsong mentioned. > Besides, we still need to investigate how > http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org works, I think > a slack of our own can be easier to set up the archive. > > Regarding Discourse vs Slack, I think they are not exclusive, but > complementary. > Someday in the future, we might be able to provide them both. But what we > are seeking today > is a tool that can provide real-time communication and ad-hoc questions > and interactions. > A forum is more similar to a mailing list. Forum is modern mailing list > but can't solve the problems > mentioned above. With slack-archives, the information and thoughtful > discussion in Slack can also be searchable. > > I think we can open another thread to discuss creating a forum for Flink > and keep this thread focused > on Slack. IMO, we can investigate more kinds of forums, for example GitHub > Discussion which is free, powerful > and fully-managed. Airflow[1] and Next.JS also use GitHub Discussion as > their forum. > > Best, > Jark > > [1]: https://github.com/apache/airflow/discussions > [2]: https://github.com/vercel/next.js/discussions > > > On Thu, 12 May 2022 at 15:24, Martijn Visser > wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> I would +1 setting up our own Slack. It will allow us to provide the best >> experience for those in the community who want to use Slack. >> More than happy to help with setting up community guidelines on how to use >> Slack. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Martijn >> >> On Thu, 12 May 2022 at 05:22, Yun Tang wrote: >> >> > Hi all, >> > >> > I think forum might be a good choice for search and maintain. However, >> > unlike slack workspace, it seems no existing popular product could be >> > leveraged easily. >> > >> > Thus, I am +1 to create an Apache Flink slack channel. If the ASF slack >> > cannot be joined easily for most of users, I prefer to set up our own >> slack >> > workspace. >> > >> > Best >> > Yun Tang >> > -- >> > *From:* Jingsong Li >> > *Sent:* Thursday, May 12, 2022 10:49 >> > *To:* Xintong Song >> > *Cc:* dev ; user >> > *Subject:* Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace >> > >> > Hi all, >> > >> > Regarding using ASF slack. I share the problems I saw in the Apache >> Druid >> > community. [1] >> > >> > > As you may have heard, it’s become increasingly difficult for new >> users >> > without an @apache.org email address to join the ASF #druid Slack >> channel. >> > ASF Infra disabled the option to publicly provide a link to the >> workspace >> > to anyone who wanted it, after encountering issues with spammers. >> > >> > > Per Infra’s guidance (https://infra.apache.org/slack.html), new >> > community >> > members should only be invited as single-channel guests. Unfortunately, >> > single-channel guests are unable to extend invitations to new members, >> > including their colleagues who are using Druid. Only someone with full >> > member privileges is able to extend an invitation to new members. This >> lack >> > of consistency doesn’t make the community feel inclusive. >> > >> > > There is a workaround in place ( >> > https://github.com/apache/druid-website-src/pull/278) – users can send >> an >> > email to [email protected] to request an invite to the Slack >> > channel from an existing member – but this still poses a barrier to >> entry, >> > and isn’t a viable permanent solution. It also creates potential privacy >> > issues as not everyone is at liberty to announce they’re using Druid nor >> > wishes to display their email address in a public forum. >> > >> > [1] https://lists.apache.org/thread/f36tvfwfo2ssf1x3jb4q0v2pftdyo5z5 >> > >> > Best, >> > Jingsong >> > >> >
Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace
Hi, I would +1 to create Apache Flink Slack for the lower barriers to entry as Jingsong mentioned. Besides, we still need to investigate how http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org works, I think a slack of our own can be easier to set up the archive. Regarding Discourse vs Slack, I think they are not exclusive, but complementary. Someday in the future, we might be able to provide them both. But what we are seeking today is a tool that can provide real-time communication and ad-hoc questions and interactions. A forum is more similar to a mailing list. Forum is modern mailing list but can't solve the problems mentioned above. With slack-archives, the information and thoughtful discussion in Slack can also be searchable. I think we can open another thread to discuss creating a forum for Flink and keep this thread focused on Slack. IMO, we can investigate more kinds of forums, for example GitHub Discussion which is free, powerful and fully-managed. Airflow[1] and Next.JS also use GitHub Discussion as their forum. Best, Jark [1]: https://github.com/apache/airflow/discussions [2]: https://github.com/vercel/next.js/discussions On Thu, 12 May 2022 at 15:24, Martijn Visser wrote: > Hi, > > I would +1 setting up our own Slack. It will allow us to provide the best > experience for those in the community who want to use Slack. > More than happy to help with setting up community guidelines on how to use > Slack. > > Best regards, > > Martijn > > On Thu, 12 May 2022 at 05:22, Yun Tang wrote: > > > Hi all, > > > > I think forum might be a good choice for search and maintain. However, > > unlike slack workspace, it seems no existing popular product could be > > leveraged easily. > > > > Thus, I am +1 to create an Apache Flink slack channel. If the ASF slack > > cannot be joined easily for most of users, I prefer to set up our own > slack > > workspace. > > > > Best > > Yun Tang > > -- > > *From:* Jingsong Li > > *Sent:* Thursday, May 12, 2022 10:49 > > *To:* Xintong Song > > *Cc:* dev ; user > > *Subject:* Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace > > > > Hi all, > > > > Regarding using ASF slack. I share the problems I saw in the Apache Druid > > community. [1] > > > > > As you may have heard, it’s become increasingly difficult for new users > > without an @apache.org email address to join the ASF #druid Slack > channel. > > ASF Infra disabled the option to publicly provide a link to the workspace > > to anyone who wanted it, after encountering issues with spammers. > > > > > Per Infra’s guidance (https://infra.apache.org/slack.html), new > > community > > members should only be invited as single-channel guests. Unfortunately, > > single-channel guests are unable to extend invitations to new members, > > including their colleagues who are using Druid. Only someone with full > > member privileges is able to extend an invitation to new members. This > lack > > of consistency doesn’t make the community feel inclusive. > > > > > There is a workaround in place ( > > https://github.com/apache/druid-website-src/pull/278) – users can send > an > > email to [email protected] to request an invite to the Slack > > channel from an existing member – but this still poses a barrier to > entry, > > and isn’t a viable permanent solution. It also creates potential privacy > > issues as not everyone is at liberty to announce they’re using Druid nor > > wishes to display their email address in a public forum. > > > > [1] https://lists.apache.org/thread/f36tvfwfo2ssf1x3jb4q0v2pftdyo5z5 > > > > Best, > > Jingsong > > > > On Thu, May 12, 2022 at 10:22 AM Xintong Song > > wrote: > > > > > To make some progress, maybe we decide on chat vs forum vs none and > then > > >> go into a deeper discussion on the implementation or is there anything > > >> about Slack that would be complete blocker for the implementation? > > >> > > > > > > Sure, then I'd be +1 for chat. From my side, the initiative is more > about > > > making communication more efficient, rather than making information > > easier > > > to find. > > > > > > Thank you~ > > > > > > Xintong Song > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, May 11, 2022 at 5:39 PM Konstantin Knauf > > > wrote: > > > > > >> I don't think we can maintain two additional channels. Some people > have > > >> already concerns about covering one additional chan
Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace
Hi, I would +1 setting up our own Slack. It will allow us to provide the best experience for those in the community who want to use Slack. More than happy to help with setting up community guidelines on how to use Slack. Best regards, Martijn On Thu, 12 May 2022 at 05:22, Yun Tang wrote: > Hi all, > > I think forum might be a good choice for search and maintain. However, > unlike slack workspace, it seems no existing popular product could be > leveraged easily. > > Thus, I am +1 to create an Apache Flink slack channel. If the ASF slack > cannot be joined easily for most of users, I prefer to set up our own slack > workspace. > > Best > Yun Tang > -- > *From:* Jingsong Li > *Sent:* Thursday, May 12, 2022 10:49 > *To:* Xintong Song > *Cc:* dev ; user > *Subject:* Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace > > Hi all, > > Regarding using ASF slack. I share the problems I saw in the Apache Druid > community. [1] > > > As you may have heard, it’s become increasingly difficult for new users > without an @apache.org email address to join the ASF #druid Slack channel. > ASF Infra disabled the option to publicly provide a link to the workspace > to anyone who wanted it, after encountering issues with spammers. > > > Per Infra’s guidance (https://infra.apache.org/slack.html), new > community > members should only be invited as single-channel guests. Unfortunately, > single-channel guests are unable to extend invitations to new members, > including their colleagues who are using Druid. Only someone with full > member privileges is able to extend an invitation to new members. This lack > of consistency doesn’t make the community feel inclusive. > > > There is a workaround in place ( > https://github.com/apache/druid-website-src/pull/278) – users can send an > email to [email protected] to request an invite to the Slack > channel from an existing member – but this still poses a barrier to entry, > and isn’t a viable permanent solution. It also creates potential privacy > issues as not everyone is at liberty to announce they’re using Druid nor > wishes to display their email address in a public forum. > > [1] https://lists.apache.org/thread/f36tvfwfo2ssf1x3jb4q0v2pftdyo5z5 > > Best, > Jingsong > > On Thu, May 12, 2022 at 10:22 AM Xintong Song > wrote: > > > To make some progress, maybe we decide on chat vs forum vs none and then > >> go into a deeper discussion on the implementation or is there anything > >> about Slack that would be complete blocker for the implementation? > >> > > > > Sure, then I'd be +1 for chat. From my side, the initiative is more about > > making communication more efficient, rather than making information > easier > > to find. > > > > Thank you~ > > > > Xintong Song > > > > > > > > On Wed, May 11, 2022 at 5:39 PM Konstantin Knauf > > wrote: > > > >> I don't think we can maintain two additional channels. Some people have > >> already concerns about covering one additional channel. > >> > >> I think, a forum provides a better user experience than a mailing list. > >> Information is structured better, you can edit messages, sign up and > search > >> is easier. > >> > >> To make some progress, maybe we decide on chat vs forum vs none and then > >> go into a deeper discussion on the implementation or is there anything > >> about Slack that would be complete blocker for the implementation? > >> > >> > >> > >> Am Mi., 11. Mai 2022 um 07:35 Uhr schrieb Xintong Song < > >> [email protected]>: > >> > >>> I agree with Robert on reworking the "Community" and "Getting Help" > >>> pages to emphasize how we position the mailing lists and Slack, and on > >>> revisiting in 6-12 months. > >>> > >>> Concerning dedicated Apache Flink Slack vs. ASF Slack, I'm with > >>> Konstantin. I'd expect it to be easier for having more channels and > keeping > >>> them organized, managing permissions for different roles, adding bots, > etc. > >>> > >>> IMO, having Slack is about improving the communication efficiency when > >>> you are already in a discussion, and we expect such improvement would > >>> motivate users to interact more with each other. From that perspective, > >>> forums are not much better than mailing lists. > >>> > >>> I'm also open to forums as well, but not as an alternative to Slack. I >
Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace
Hi all, I think forum might be a good choice for search and maintain. However, unlike slack workspace, it seems no existing popular product could be leveraged easily. Thus, I am +1 to create an Apache Flink slack channel. If the ASF slack cannot be joined easily for most of users, I prefer to set up our own slack workspace. Best Yun Tang From: Jingsong Li Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2022 10:49 To: Xintong Song Cc: dev ; user Subject: Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace Hi all, Regarding using ASF slack. I share the problems I saw in the Apache Druid community. [1] > As you may have heard, it’s become increasingly difficult for new users without an @apache.org email address to join the ASF #druid Slack channel. ASF Infra disabled the option to publicly provide a link to the workspace to anyone who wanted it, after encountering issues with spammers. > Per Infra’s guidance (https://infra.apache.org/slack.html), new community members should only be invited as single-channel guests. Unfortunately, single-channel guests are unable to extend invitations to new members, including their colleagues who are using Druid. Only someone with full member privileges is able to extend an invitation to new members. This lack of consistency doesn’t make the community feel inclusive. > There is a workaround in place ( https://github.com/apache/druid-website-src/pull/278) – users can send an email to [email protected] to request an invite to the Slack channel from an existing member – but this still poses a barrier to entry, and isn’t a viable permanent solution. It also creates potential privacy issues as not everyone is at liberty to announce they’re using Druid nor wishes to display their email address in a public forum. [1] https://lists.apache.org/thread/f36tvfwfo2ssf1x3jb4q0v2pftdyo5z5 Best, Jingsong On Thu, May 12, 2022 at 10:22 AM Xintong Song wrote: > To make some progress, maybe we decide on chat vs forum vs none and then >> go into a deeper discussion on the implementation or is there anything >> about Slack that would be complete blocker for the implementation? >> > > Sure, then I'd be +1 for chat. From my side, the initiative is more about > making communication more efficient, rather than making information easier > to find. > > Thank you~ > > Xintong Song > > > > On Wed, May 11, 2022 at 5:39 PM Konstantin Knauf > wrote: > >> I don't think we can maintain two additional channels. Some people have >> already concerns about covering one additional channel. >> >> I think, a forum provides a better user experience than a mailing list. >> Information is structured better, you can edit messages, sign up and search >> is easier. >> >> To make some progress, maybe we decide on chat vs forum vs none and then >> go into a deeper discussion on the implementation or is there anything >> about Slack that would be complete blocker for the implementation? >> >> >> >> Am Mi., 11. Mai 2022 um 07:35 Uhr schrieb Xintong Song < >> [email protected]>: >> >>> I agree with Robert on reworking the "Community" and "Getting Help" >>> pages to emphasize how we position the mailing lists and Slack, and on >>> revisiting in 6-12 months. >>> >>> Concerning dedicated Apache Flink Slack vs. ASF Slack, I'm with >>> Konstantin. I'd expect it to be easier for having more channels and keeping >>> them organized, managing permissions for different roles, adding bots, etc. >>> >>> IMO, having Slack is about improving the communication efficiency when >>> you are already in a discussion, and we expect such improvement would >>> motivate users to interact more with each other. From that perspective, >>> forums are not much better than mailing lists. >>> >>> I'm also open to forums as well, but not as an alternative to Slack. I >>> definitely see how forums help in keeping information organized and easy to >>> find. However, I'm a bit concerned about the maintenance overhead. I'm not >>> very familiar with Discourse or Reddit. My impression is that they are not >>> as easy to set up and maintain as Slack. >>> >>> Thank you~ >>> >>> Xintong Song >>> >>> >>> [1] https://asktug.com/ >>> >>> On Tue, May 10, 2022 at 4:50 PM Konstantin Knauf >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Thanks for starting this discussion again. I am pretty much with Timo >>>> here. Slack or Discourse as an alternative for the user community, and >>>> mailing list for the contributing, design discussi
Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace
n >>>>>>>> from the >>>>>>>> >> community. Thanks for the suggestion / reminder, Piotr & David. >>>>>>>> I think >>>>>>>> >> Slack and StackOverFlow are probably not mutual exclusive. >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> Thank you~ >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> Xintong Song >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> [1] https://zapier.com/ >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 9:50 AM Jingsong Li < >>>>>>>> [email protected]> >>>>>>>> >> wrote: >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> > Most of the open source communities I know have set up their >>>>>>>> slack >>>>>>>> >> > channels, such as Apache Iceberg [1], Apache Druid [2], etc. >>>>>>>> >> > So I think slack can be worth trying. >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>>> >> > David is right, there are some cases that need to communicate >>>>>>>> back and >>>>>>>> >> > forth, slack communication will be more effective. >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>>> >> > But back to the question, ultimately it's about whether there >>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>> >> > enough core developers willing to invest time in the slack, to >>>>>>>> >> > discuss, to answer questions, to communicate. >>>>>>>> >> > And whether there will be enough time to reply to the mailing >>>>>>>> list and >>>>>>>> >> > stackoverflow after we put in the slack (which we need to do). >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>>> >> > [1] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack >>>>>>>> >> > [2] https://druid.apache.org/community/ >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>>> >> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 10:06 PM David Anderson < >>>>>>>> [email protected]> >>>>>>>> >> > wrote: >>>>>>>> >> > > >>>>>>>> >> > > I have mixed feelings about this. >>>>>>>> >> > > >>>>>>>> >> > > I have been rather visible on stack overflow, and as a >>>>>>>> result I get a >>>>>>>> >> > lot of DMs asking for help. I enjoy helping, but want to do it >>>>>>>> on a >>>>>>>> >> > platform where the responses can be searched and shared. >>>>>>>> >> > > >>>>>>>> >> > > It is currently the case that good questions on stack >>>>>>>> overflow >>>>>>>> >> > frequently go unanswered because no one with the necessary >>>>>>>> expertise >>>>>>>> >> takes >>>>>>>> >> > the time to respond. If the Flink community has the collective >>>>>>>> energy >>>>>>>> >> to do >>>>>>>> >> > more user outreach, more involvement on stack overflow would >>>>>>>> be a good >>>>>>>> >> > place to start. Adding slack as another way for users to >>>>>>>> request help >>>>>>>> >> from >>>>>>>> >> > those who are already actively providing support on the >>>>>>>> existing >>>>>>>> >> > communication channels might just lead to burnout. >>>>>>>> >> > > >>>>>>>> >> > > On the other hand, there are rather rare, but very >>>>>>>> interesting cases >>>>>>>> >> > where considerable back and forth is needed to figure out >>>>>>>> what's going >>>>>>>> >> on. >>&
Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace
d feelings about this. >>>>>>> >> > > >>>>>>> >> > > I have been rather visible on stack overflow, and as a result >>>>>>> I get a >>>>>>> >> > lot of DMs asking for help. I enjoy helping, but want to do it >>>>>>> on a >>>>>>> >> > platform where the responses can be searched and shared. >>>>>>> >> > > >>>>>>> >> > > It is currently the case that good questions on stack overflow >>>>>>> >> > frequently go unanswered because no one with the necessary >>>>>>> expertise >>>>>>> >> takes >>>>>>> >> > the time to respond. If the Flink community has the collective >>>>>>> energy >>>>>>> >> to do >>>>>>> >> > more user outreach, more involvement on stack overflow would be >>>>>>> a good >>>>>>> >> > place to start. Adding slack as another way for users to >>>>>>> request help >>>>>>> >> from >>>>>>> >> > those who are already actively providing support on the existing >>>>>>> >> > communication channels might just lead to burnout. >>>>>>> >> > > >>>>>>> >> > > On the other hand, there are rather rare, but very >>>>>>> interesting cases >>>>>>> >> > where considerable back and forth is needed to figure out >>>>>>> what's going >>>>>>> >> on. >>>>>>> >> > This can happen, for example, when the requirements are >>>>>>> unusual, or >>>>>>> >> when a >>>>>>> >> > difficult to diagnose bug is involved. In these circumstances, >>>>>>> something >>>>>>> >> > like slack is much better suited than email or stack overflow. >>>>>>> >> > > >>>>>>> >> > > David >>>>>>> >> > > >>>>>>> >> > > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:04 PM Becket Qin < >>>>>>> [email protected]> >>>>>>> >> wrote: >>>>>>> >> > >> >>>>>>> >> > >> Thanks for the proposal, Xintong. >>>>>>> >> > >> >>>>>>> >> > >> While I share the same concerns as those mentioned in the >>>>>>> previous >>>>>>> >> > discussion thread, admittedly there are benefits of having a >>>>>>> slack >>>>>>> >> channel >>>>>>> >> > as a supplementary way to discuss Flink. The fact that this >>>>>>> topic is >>>>>>> >> raised >>>>>>> >> > once a while indicates lasting interests. >>>>>>> >> > >> >>>>>>> >> > >> Personally I am open to having such a slack channel. >>>>>>> Although it has >>>>>>> >> > drawbacks, it serves a different purpose. I'd imagine that for >>>>>>> people >>>>>>> >> who >>>>>>> >> > prefer instant messaging, in absence of the slack channel, a >>>>>>> lot of >>>>>>> >> > discussions might just take place offline today, which leaves >>>>>>> no public >>>>>>> >> > record at all. >>>>>>> >> > >> >>>>>>> >> > >> One step further, if the channel is maintained by the Flink >>>>>>> PMC, some >>>>>>> >> > kind of code of conduct might be necessary. I think the >>>>>>> suggestions of >>>>>>> >> > ad-hoc conversations, reflecting back to the emails are good >>>>>>> starting >>>>>>> >> > points. I am +1 to give it a try and see how it goes. In the >>>>>>> worst >>>>>>> >> case, we >>>>>>> >> > can just stop doing this and come back to wher
Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace
y, there are questions being repeatedly >>>>>> asked & >>>>>> >> answered, but TBH I don't think that compares to the benefit of a >>>>>> >> self-driven user community. I'd really love to see if we can bring >>>>>> such >>>>>> >> success to the global English-speaking community. >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> Concerning StackOverFlow, it definitely worth more attention from >>>>>> the >>>>>> >> community. Thanks for the suggestion / reminder, Piotr & David. I >>>>>> think >>>>>> >> Slack and StackOverFlow are probably not mutual exclusive. >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> Thank you~ >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> Xintong Song >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> [1] https://zapier.com/ >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 9:50 AM Jingsong Li >>>>> > >>>>>> >> wrote: >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> > Most of the open source communities I know have set up their >>>>>> slack >>>>>> >> > channels, such as Apache Iceberg [1], Apache Druid [2], etc. >>>>>> >> > So I think slack can be worth trying. >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> >> > David is right, there are some cases that need to communicate >>>>>> back and >>>>>> >> > forth, slack communication will be more effective. >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> >> > But back to the question, ultimately it's about whether there are >>>>>> >> > enough core developers willing to invest time in the slack, to >>>>>> >> > discuss, to answer questions, to communicate. >>>>>> >> > And whether there will be enough time to reply to the mailing >>>>>> list and >>>>>> >> > stackoverflow after we put in the slack (which we need to do). >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> >> > [1] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack >>>>>> >> > [2] https://druid.apache.org/community/ >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> >> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 10:06 PM David Anderson < >>>>>> [email protected]> >>>>>> >> > wrote: >>>>>> >> > > >>>>>> >> > > I have mixed feelings about this. >>>>>> >> > > >>>>>> >> > > I have been rather visible on stack overflow, and as a result >>>>>> I get a >>>>>> >> > lot of DMs asking for help. I enjoy helping, but want to do it >>>>>> on a >>>>>> >> > platform where the responses can be searched and shared. >>>>>> >> > > >>>>>> >> > > It is currently the case that good questions on stack overflow >>>>>> >> > frequently go unanswered because no one with the necessary >>>>>> expertise >>>>>> >> takes >>>>>> >> > the time to respond. If the Flink community has the collective >>>>>> energy >>>>>> >> to do >>>>>> >> > more user outreach, more involvement on stack overflow would be >>>>>> a good >>>>>> >> > place to start. Adding slack as another way for users to request >>>>>> help >>>>>> >> from >>>>>> >> > those who are already actively providing support on the existing >>>>>> >> > communication channels might just lead to burnout. >>>>>> >> > > >>>>>> >> > > On the other hand, there are rather rare, but very interesting >>>>>> cases >>>>>> >> > where considerable back and forth is needed to figure out what's >>>>>> going >>>>>> >> on. >>>>>> >> > This can happen, for example, when the requirements are unusual, >>>>>> or >>>>>> >> when a &
Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace
> >>>>> >> > But back to the question, ultimately it's about whether there are >>>>> >> > enough core developers willing to invest time in the slack, to >>>>> >> > discuss, to answer questions, to communicate. >>>>> >> > And whether there will be enough time to reply to the mailing >>>>> list and >>>>> >> > stackoverflow after we put in the slack (which we need to do). >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > [1] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack >>>>> >> > [2] https://druid.apache.org/community/ >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 10:06 PM David Anderson < >>>>> [email protected]> >>>>> >> > wrote: >>>>> >> > > >>>>> >> > > I have mixed feelings about this. >>>>> >> > > >>>>> >> > > I have been rather visible on stack overflow, and as a result I >>>>> get a >>>>> >> > lot of DMs asking for help. I enjoy helping, but want to do it on >>>>> a >>>>> >> > platform where the responses can be searched and shared. >>>>> >> > > >>>>> >> > > It is currently the case that good questions on stack overflow >>>>> >> > frequently go unanswered because no one with the necessary >>>>> expertise >>>>> >> takes >>>>> >> > the time to respond. If the Flink community has the collective >>>>> energy >>>>> >> to do >>>>> >> > more user outreach, more involvement on stack overflow would be a >>>>> good >>>>> >> > place to start. Adding slack as another way for users to request >>>>> help >>>>> >> from >>>>> >> > those who are already actively providing support on the existing >>>>> >> > communication channels might just lead to burnout. >>>>> >> > > >>>>> >> > > On the other hand, there are rather rare, but very interesting >>>>> cases >>>>> >> > where considerable back and forth is needed to figure out what's >>>>> going >>>>> >> on. >>>>> >> > This can happen, for example, when the requirements are unusual, >>>>> or >>>>> >> when a >>>>> >> > difficult to diagnose bug is involved. In these circumstances, >>>>> something >>>>> >> > like slack is much better suited than email or stack overflow. >>>>> >> > > >>>>> >> > > David >>>>> >> > > >>>>> >> > > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:04 PM Becket Qin >>>> > >>>>> >> wrote: >>>>> >> > >> >>>>> >> > >> Thanks for the proposal, Xintong. >>>>> >> > >> >>>>> >> > >> While I share the same concerns as those mentioned in the >>>>> previous >>>>> >> > discussion thread, admittedly there are benefits of having a slack >>>>> >> channel >>>>> >> > as a supplementary way to discuss Flink. The fact that this topic >>>>> is >>>>> >> raised >>>>> >> > once a while indicates lasting interests. >>>>> >> > >> >>>>> >> > >> Personally I am open to having such a slack channel. Although >>>>> it has >>>>> >> > drawbacks, it serves a different purpose. I'd imagine that for >>>>> people >>>>> >> who >>>>> >> > prefer instant messaging, in absence of the slack channel, a lot >>>>> of >>>>> >> > discussions might just take place offline today, which leaves no >>>>> public >>>>> >> > record at all. >>>>> >> > >> >>>>> >> > >> One step further, if the channel is maintained by the Flink >>>>> PMC, some >>>>> >> > kind of code of conduct might be necessary. I think the >>>>> suggestions of >>>>> >> > ad-
Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace
t;> > > On the other hand, there are rather rare, but very interesting >>>> cases >>>> >> > where considerable back and forth is needed to figure out what's >>>> going >>>> >> on. >>>> >> > This can happen, for example, when the requirements are unusual, or >>>> >> when a >>>> >> > difficult to diagnose bug is involved. In these circumstances, >>>> something >>>> >> > like slack is much better suited than email or stack overflow. >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > > David >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:04 PM Becket Qin >>>> >> wrote: >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > >> Thanks for the proposal, Xintong. >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > >> While I share the same concerns as those mentioned in the >>>> previous >>>> >> > discussion thread, admittedly there are benefits of having a slack >>>> >> channel >>>> >> > as a supplementary way to discuss Flink. The fact that this topic >>>> is >>>> >> raised >>>> >> > once a while indicates lasting interests. >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > >> Personally I am open to having such a slack channel. Although >>>> it has >>>> >> > drawbacks, it serves a different purpose. I'd imagine that for >>>> people >>>> >> who >>>> >> > prefer instant messaging, in absence of the slack channel, a lot of >>>> >> > discussions might just take place offline today, which leaves no >>>> public >>>> >> > record at all. >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > >> One step further, if the channel is maintained by the Flink >>>> PMC, some >>>> >> > kind of code of conduct might be necessary. I think the >>>> suggestions of >>>> >> > ad-hoc conversations, reflecting back to the emails are good >>>> starting >>>> >> > points. I am +1 to give it a try and see how it goes. In the worst >>>> >> case, we >>>> >> > can just stop doing this and come back to where we are right now. >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > >> Thanks, >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > >> Jiangjie (Becket) Qin >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > >> On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 8:55 PM Martijn Visser < >>>> [email protected] >>>> >> > >>>> >> > wrote: >>>> >> > >>> >>>> >> > >>> Hi everyone, >>>> >> > >>> >>>> >> > >>> While I see Slack having a major downside (the results are not >>>> >> indexed >>>> >> > by external search engines, you can't link directly to Slack >>>> content >>>> >> unless >>>> >> > you've signed up), I do think that the open source space has >>>> progressed >>>> >> and >>>> >> > that Slack is considered as something that's invaluable to users. >>>> There >>>> >> are >>>> >> > other Apache programs that also run it, like Apache Airflow [1]. I >>>> also >>>> >> see >>>> >> > it as a potential option to create a more active community. >>>> >> > >>> >>>> >> > >>> A concern I can see is that users will start DMing well-known >>>> >> > reviewers/committers to get a review or a PR merged. That can >>>> cause a >>>> >> lot >>>> >> > of noise. I can go +1 for Slack, but then we need to establish a >>>> set of >>>> >> > community rules. >>>> >> > >>> >>>> >> > >>> Best regards, >>>> >> > >>> >>>> >> > >>> Martijn >>>> >> > >>> >>>> >> > >>> [1] https://airflow.apache.org/community/ >>>> >> > >>> >>>> >> &
Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace
-hoc conversations, reflecting back to the emails are good starting >> > points. I am +1 to give it a try and see how it goes. In the worst >> case, we >> > can just stop doing this and come back to where we are right now. >> > >> >> > >> Thanks, >> > >> >> > >> Jiangjie (Becket) Qin >> > >> >> > >> On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 8:55 PM Martijn Visser > > >> > wrote: >> > >>> >> > >>> Hi everyone, >> > >>> >> > >>> While I see Slack having a major downside (the results are not >> indexed >> > by external search engines, you can't link directly to Slack content >> unless >> > you've signed up), I do think that the open source space has progressed >> and >> > that Slack is considered as something that's invaluable to users. There >> are >> > other Apache programs that also run it, like Apache Airflow [1]. I also >> see >> > it as a potential option to create a more active community. >> > >>> >> > >>> A concern I can see is that users will start DMing well-known >> > reviewers/committers to get a review or a PR merged. That can cause a >> lot >> > of noise. I can go +1 for Slack, but then we need to establish a set of >> > community rules. >> > >>> >> > >>> Best regards, >> > >>> >> > >>> Martijn >> > >>> >> > >>> [1] https://airflow.apache.org/community/ >> > >>> >> > >>> On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 13:59, Piotr Nowojski >> > wrote: >> > >>>> >> > >>>> Hi Xintong, >> > >>>> >> > >>>> I'm not sure if slack is the right tool for the job. IMO it works >> > great as >> > >>>> an adhoc tool for discussion between developers, but it's not >> > searchable >> > >>>> and it's not persistent. Between devs, it works fine, as long as >> the >> > result >> > >>>> of the ad hoc discussions is backported to JIRA/mailing list/design >> > doc. >> > >>>> For users, that simply would be extremely difficult to achieve. In >> the >> > >>>> result, I would be afraid we are answering the same questions over, >> > and >> > >>>> over and over again, without even a way to provide a link to the >> > previous >> > >>>> thread, because nobody can search for it . >> > >>>> >> > >>>> I'm +1 for having an open and shared slack space/channel for the >> > >>>> contributors, but I think I would be -1 for such channels for the >> > users. >> > >>>> >> > >>>> For users, I would prefer to focus more on, for example, >> > stackoverflow. >> > >>>> With upvoting, clever sorting of the answers (not the oldest/newest >> > at top) >> > >>>> it's easily searchable - those features make it fit our use case >> much >> > >>>> better IMO. >> > >>>> >> > >>>> Best, >> > >>>> Piotrek >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> &g
Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace
> >>> >> > > I have mixed feelings about this. >>> >> > > >>> >> > > I have been rather visible on stack overflow, and as a result I >>> get a >>> >> > lot of DMs asking for help. I enjoy helping, but want to do it on a >>> >> > platform where the responses can be searched and shared. >>> >> > > >>> >> > > It is currently the case that good questions on stack overflow >>> >> > frequently go unanswered because no one with the necessary expertise >>> >> takes >>> >> > the time to respond. If the Flink community has the collective >>> energy >>> >> to do >>> >> > more user outreach, more involvement on stack overflow would be a >>> good >>> >> > place to start. Adding slack as another way for users to request >>> help >>> >> from >>> >> > those who are already actively providing support on the existing >>> >> > communication channels might just lead to burnout. >>> >> > > >>> >> > > On the other hand, there are rather rare, but very interesting >>> cases >>> >> > where considerable back and forth is needed to figure out what's >>> going >>> >> on. >>> >> > This can happen, for example, when the requirements are unusual, or >>> >> when a >>> >> > difficult to diagnose bug is involved. In these circumstances, >>> something >>> >> > like slack is much better suited than email or stack overflow. >>> >> > > >>> >> > > David >>> >> > > >>> >> > > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:04 PM Becket Qin >>> >> wrote: >>> >> > >> >>> >> > >> Thanks for the proposal, Xintong. >>> >> > >> >>> >> > >> While I share the same concerns as those mentioned in the >>> previous >>> >> > discussion thread, admittedly there are benefits of having a slack >>> >> channel >>> >> > as a supplementary way to discuss Flink. The fact that this topic is >>> >> raised >>> >> > once a while indicates lasting interests. >>> >> > >> >>> >> > >> Personally I am open to having such a slack channel. Although it >>> has >>> >> > drawbacks, it serves a different purpose. I'd imagine that for >>> people >>> >> who >>> >> > prefer instant messaging, in absence of the slack channel, a lot of >>> >> > discussions might just take place offline today, which leaves no >>> public >>> >> > record at all. >>> >> > >> >>> >> > >> One step further, if the channel is maintained by the Flink PMC, >>> some >>> >> > kind of code of conduct might be necessary. I think the suggestions >>> of >>> >> > ad-hoc conversations, reflecting back to the emails are good >>> starting >>> >> > points. I am +1 to give it a try and see how it goes. In the worst >>> >> case, we >>> >> > can just stop doing this and come back to where we are right now. >>> >> > >> >>> >> > >> Thanks, >>> >> > >> >>> >> > >> Jiangjie (Becket) Qin >>> >> > >> >>> >> > >> On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 8:55 PM Martijn Visser < >>> [email protected] >>> >> > >>> >> > wrote: >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> Hi everyone, >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> While I see Slack having a major downside (the results are not >>> >> indexed >>> >> > by external search engines, you can't link directly to Slack content >>> >> unless >>> >> > you've signed up), I do think that the open source space has >>> progressed >>> >> and >>> >> > that Slack is considered as something that's invaluable to users. >>> There >>> >> are >>> >> > other Apache programs that also run it, like Apache Airflow [1]. I >>> also >>> >> see >>> >> > it as a potential op
Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace
nd forth is needed to figure out what's >> going >> >> on. >> >> > This can happen, for example, when the requirements are unusual, or >> >> when a >> >> > difficult to diagnose bug is involved. In these circumstances, >> something >> >> > like slack is much better suited than email or stack overflow. >> >> > > >> >> > > David >> >> > > >> >> > > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:04 PM Becket Qin >> >> wrote: >> >> > >> >> >> > >> Thanks for the proposal, Xintong. >> >> > >> >> >> > >> While I share the same concerns as those mentioned in the previous >> >> > discussion thread, admittedly there are benefits of having a slack >> >> channel >> >> > as a supplementary way to discuss Flink. The fact that this topic is >> >> raised >> >> > once a while indicates lasting interests. >> >> > >> >> >> > >> Personally I am open to having such a slack channel. Although it >> has >> >> > drawbacks, it serves a different purpose. I'd imagine that for people >> >> who >> >> > prefer instant messaging, in absence of the slack channel, a lot of >> >> > discussions might just take place offline today, which leaves no >> public >> >> > record at all. >> >> > >> >> >> > >> One step further, if the channel is maintained by the Flink PMC, >> some >> >> > kind of code of conduct might be necessary. I think the suggestions >> of >> >> > ad-hoc conversations, reflecting back to the emails are good starting >> >> > points. I am +1 to give it a try and see how it goes. In the worst >> >> case, we >> >> > can just stop doing this and come back to where we are right now. >> >> > >> >> >> > >> Thanks, >> >> > >> >> >> > >> Jiangjie (Becket) Qin >> >> > >> >> >> > >> On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 8:55 PM Martijn Visser < >> [email protected] >> >> > >> >> > wrote: >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> Hi everyone, >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> While I see Slack having a major downside (the results are not >> >> indexed >> >> > by external search engines, you can't link directly to Slack content >> >> unless >> >> > you've signed up), I do think that the open source space has >> progressed >> >> and >> >> > that Slack is considered as something that's invaluable to users. >> There >> >> are >> >> > other Apache programs that also run it, like Apache Airflow [1]. I >> also >> >> see >> >> > it as a potential option to create a more active community. >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> A concern I can see is that users will start DMing well-known >> >> > reviewers/committers to get a review or a PR merged. That can cause a >> >> lot >> >> > of noise. I can go +1 for Slack, but then we need to establish a set >> of >> >> > community rules. >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> Best regards, >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> Martijn >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> [1] https://airflow.apache.org/community/ >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 13:59, Piotr Nowojski < >> [email protected]> >> >> > wrote: >> >> > >>>> >> >> > >>>> Hi Xintong, >> >> > >>>> >> >> > >>>> I'm not sure if slack is the right tool for the job. IMO it >> works >> >> > great as >> >> > >>>> an adhoc tool for discussion between developers, but it's not >> >> > searchable >> >> > >>>> and it's not persistent. Between devs, it works fine, as long as >> >> the >> >> > result >> >> > >>>> of the ad hoc discussions is backported to JIRA/mailing >> list/design >> >> > doc. >> >> > >>>> For users, that simply would be extre
Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace
, in absence of the slack channel, a lot of > >> > discussions might just take place offline today, which leaves no > public > >> > record at all. > >> > >> > >> > >> One step further, if the channel is maintained by the Flink PMC, > some > >> > kind of code of conduct might be necessary. I think the suggestions of > >> > ad-hoc conversations, reflecting back to the emails are good starting > >> > points. I am +1 to give it a try and see how it goes. In the worst > >> case, we > >> > can just stop doing this and come back to where we are right now. > >> > >> > >> > >> Thanks, > >> > >> > >> > >> Jiangjie (Becket) Qin > >> > >> > >> > >> On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 8:55 PM Martijn Visser < > [email protected] > >> > > >> > wrote: > >> > >>> > >> > >>> Hi everyone, > >> > >>> > >> > >>> While I see Slack having a major downside (the results are not > >> indexed > >> > by external search engines, you can't link directly to Slack content > >> unless > >> > you've signed up), I do think that the open source space has > progressed > >> and > >> > that Slack is considered as something that's invaluable to users. > There > >> are > >> > other Apache programs that also run it, like Apache Airflow [1]. I > also > >> see > >> > it as a potential option to create a more active community. > >> > >>> > >> > >>> A concern I can see is that users will start DMing well-known > >> > reviewers/committers to get a review or a PR merged. That can cause a > >> lot > >> > of noise. I can go +1 for Slack, but then we need to establish a set > of > >> > community rules. > >> > >>> > >> > >>> Best regards, > >> > >>> > >> > >>> Martijn > >> > >>> > >> > >>> [1] https://airflow.apache.org/community/ > >> > >>> > >> > >>> On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 13:59, Piotr Nowojski > > >> > wrote: > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> Hi Xintong, > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> I'm not sure if slack is the right tool for the job. IMO it works > >> > great as > >> > >>>> an adhoc tool for discussion between developers, but it's not > >> > searchable > >> > >>>> and it's not persistent. Between devs, it works fine, as long as > >> the > >> > result > >> > >>>> of the ad hoc discussions is backported to JIRA/mailing > list/design > >> > doc. > >> > >>>> For users, that simply would be extremely difficult to achieve. > In > >> the > >> > >>>> result, I would be afraid we are answering the same questions > over, > >> > and > >> > >>>> over and over again, without even a way to provide a link to the > >> > previous > >> > >>>> thread, because nobody can search for it . > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> I'm +1 for having an open and shared slack space/channel for the > >> > >>>> contributors, but I think I would be -1 for such channels for the > >> > users. > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> For users, I would prefer to focus more on, for example, > >> > stackoverflow. > >> > >>>> With upvoting, clever sorting of the answers (not the > oldest/newest > >> > at top) > >> > >>>> it's easily searchable - those features make it fit our use case > >> much > >> > >>>> better IMO. > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> Best, > >> > >>>> Piotrek > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> pt., 6 maj 2022 o 11:08 Xintong Song > >> > napisał(a): > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> > Thank you~ > >> > >>>> > > >> > >>>> > Xintong Song > >> > >>>> > > >> > >>>&
Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace
> you've signed up), I do think that the open source space has progressed >> and >> > that Slack is considered as something that's invaluable to users. There >> are >> > other Apache programs that also run it, like Apache Airflow [1]. I also >> see >> > it as a potential option to create a more active community. >> > >>> >> > >>> A concern I can see is that users will start DMing well-known >> > reviewers/committers to get a review or a PR merged. That can cause a >> lot >> > of noise. I can go +1 for Slack, but then we need to establish a set of >> > community rules. >> > >>> >> > >>> Best regards, >> > >>> >> > >>> Martijn >> > >>> >> > >>> [1] https://airflow.apache.org/community/ >> > >>> >> > >>> On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 13:59, Piotr Nowojski >> > wrote: >> > >>>> >> > >>>> Hi Xintong, >> > >>>> >> > >>>> I'm not sure if slack is the right tool for the job. IMO it works >> > great as >> > >>>> an adhoc tool for discussion between developers, but it's not >> > searchable >> > >>>> and it's not persistent. Between devs, it works fine, as long as >> the >> > result >> > >>>> of the ad hoc discussions is backported to JIRA/mailing list/design >> > doc. >> > >>>> For users, that simply would be extremely difficult to achieve. In >> the >> > >>>> result, I would be afraid we are answering the same questions over, >> > and >> > >>>> over and over again, without even a way to provide a link to the >> > previous >> > >>>> thread, because nobody can search for it . >> > >>>> >> > >>>> I'm +1 for having an open and shared slack space/channel for the >> > >>>> contributors, but I think I would be -1 for such channels for the >> > users. >> > >>>> >> > >>>> For users, I would prefer to focus more on, for example, >> > stackoverflow. >> > >>>> With upvoting, clever sorting of the answers (not the oldest/newest >> > at top) >> > >>>> it's easily searchable - those features make it fit our use case >> much >> > >>>> better IMO. >> > >>>> >> > >>>> Best, >> > >>>> Piotrek >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> pt., 6 maj 2022 o 11:08 Xintong Song >> > napisał(a): >> > >>>> >> > >>>> > Thank you~ >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> > Xintong Song >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> > -- Forwarded message - >> > >>>> > From: Xintong Song >> > >>>> > Date: Fri, May 6, 2022 at 5:07 PM >> > >>>> > Subject: Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace >> > >>>> > To: private >> > >>>> > Cc: Chesnay Schepler >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> > Hi Chesnay, >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> > Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't find this is *repeatedly* >> > discussed on the >> > >>>> > ML. The only discussions I find are [1] & [2], which are 4 years >> > ago. On >> > >>>> > the other hand, I do find many users are asking questions about >> > whether >> > >>>> > Slack should be supported [2][3][4]. Besides, I also find a >> recent >> > >>>> > discussion thread from ComDev [5], where alternative >> communication >> > channels >> > >>>> > are being discussed. It seems to me ASF is quite open to having >> such >> > >>>> > additional channels and they have been worked well for many >> projects >> > >>>> > already. >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> > I see two reasons for brining this discussion again: >> > >>>> > 1. There are indeed many things that have change duri
Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace
;>> Hi Xintong, > > >>>> > > >>>> I'm not sure if slack is the right tool for the job. IMO it works > > great as > > >>>> an adhoc tool for discussion between developers, but it's not > > searchable > > >>>> and it's not persistent. Between devs, it works fine, as long as the > > result > > >>>> of the ad hoc discussions is backported to JIRA/mailing list/design > > doc. > > >>>> For users, that simply would be extremely difficult to achieve. In > the > > >>>> result, I would be afraid we are answering the same questions over, > > and > > >>>> over and over again, without even a way to provide a link to the > > previous > > >>>> thread, because nobody can search for it . > > >>>> > > >>>> I'm +1 for having an open and shared slack space/channel for the > > >>>> contributors, but I think I would be -1 for such channels for the > > users. > > >>>> > > >>>> For users, I would prefer to focus more on, for example, > > stackoverflow. > > >>>> With upvoting, clever sorting of the answers (not the oldest/newest > > at top) > > >>>> it's easily searchable - those features make it fit our use case > much > > >>>> better IMO. > > >>>> > > >>>> Best, > > >>>> Piotrek > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> pt., 6 maj 2022 o 11:08 Xintong Song > > napisał(a): > > >>>> > > >>>> > Thank you~ > > >>>> > > > >>>> > Xintong Song > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > -- Forwarded message - > > >>>> > From: Xintong Song > > >>>> > Date: Fri, May 6, 2022 at 5:07 PM > > >>>> > Subject: Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace > > >>>> > To: private > > >>>> > Cc: Chesnay Schepler > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > Hi Chesnay, > > >>>> > > > >>>> > Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't find this is *repeatedly* > > discussed on the > > >>>> > ML. The only discussions I find are [1] & [2], which are 4 years > > ago. On > > >>>> > the other hand, I do find many users are asking questions about > > whether > > >>>> > Slack should be supported [2][3][4]. Besides, I also find a recent > > >>>> > discussion thread from ComDev [5], where alternative communication > > channels > > >>>> > are being discussed. It seems to me ASF is quite open to having > such > > >>>> > additional channels and they have been worked well for many > projects > > >>>> > already. > > >>>> > > > >>>> > I see two reasons for brining this discussion again: > > >>>> > 1. There are indeed many things that have change during the past 4 > > years. > > >>>> > We have more contributors, including committers and PMC members, > > and even > > >>>> > more users from various organizations and timezones. That also > > means more > > >>>> > discussions and Q&As are happening. > > >>>> > 2. The proposal here is different from the previous discussion. > > Instead of > > >>>> > maintaining a channel for Flink in the ASF workspace, here we are > > proposing > > >>>> > to create a dedicated Apache Flink slack workspace. And instead of > > *moving* > > >>>> > the discussion to Slack, we are proposing to add a Slack Workspace > > as an > > >>>> > addition to the ML. > > >>>> > > > >>>> > Below is your opinions that I found from your previous -1 [1]. > > IIUR, these > > >>>> > are all about the using ASF Slack Workspace. If I overlooked > > anything, > > >>>> > please let me know. > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > 1. According to INFRA-14292 < > > >>>> > > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-14292> the ASF > Slack > > isn't > >
Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace
erns as those mentioned in the previous > discussion thread, admittedly there are benefits of having a slack channel > as a supplementary way to discuss Flink. The fact that this topic is raised > once a while indicates lasting interests. > >> > >> Personally I am open to having such a slack channel. Although it has > drawbacks, it serves a different purpose. I'd imagine that for people who > prefer instant messaging, in absence of the slack channel, a lot of > discussions might just take place offline today, which leaves no public > record at all. > >> > >> One step further, if the channel is maintained by the Flink PMC, some > kind of code of conduct might be necessary. I think the suggestions of > ad-hoc conversations, reflecting back to the emails are good starting > points. I am +1 to give it a try and see how it goes. In the worst case, we > can just stop doing this and come back to where we are right now. > >> > >> Thanks, > >> > >> Jiangjie (Becket) Qin > >> > >> On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 8:55 PM Martijn Visser > wrote: > >>> > >>> Hi everyone, > >>> > >>> While I see Slack having a major downside (the results are not indexed > by external search engines, you can't link directly to Slack content unless > you've signed up), I do think that the open source space has progressed and > that Slack is considered as something that's invaluable to users. There are > other Apache programs that also run it, like Apache Airflow [1]. I also see > it as a potential option to create a more active community. > >>> > >>> A concern I can see is that users will start DMing well-known > reviewers/committers to get a review or a PR merged. That can cause a lot > of noise. I can go +1 for Slack, but then we need to establish a set of > community rules. > >>> > >>> Best regards, > >>> > >>> Martijn > >>> > >>> [1] https://airflow.apache.org/community/ > >>> > >>> On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 13:59, Piotr Nowojski > wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Hi Xintong, > >>>> > >>>> I'm not sure if slack is the right tool for the job. IMO it works > great as > >>>> an adhoc tool for discussion between developers, but it's not > searchable > >>>> and it's not persistent. Between devs, it works fine, as long as the > result > >>>> of the ad hoc discussions is backported to JIRA/mailing list/design > doc. > >>>> For users, that simply would be extremely difficult to achieve. In the > >>>> result, I would be afraid we are answering the same questions over, > and > >>>> over and over again, without even a way to provide a link to the > previous > >>>> thread, because nobody can search for it . > >>>> > >>>> I'm +1 for having an open and shared slack space/channel for the > >>>> contributors, but I think I would be -1 for such channels for the > users. > >>>> > >>>> For users, I would prefer to focus more on, for example, > stackoverflow. > >>>> With upvoting, clever sorting of the answers (not the oldest/newest > at top) > >>>> it's easily searchable - those features make it fit our use case much > >>>> better IMO. > >>>> > >>>> Best, > >>>> Piotrek > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> pt., 6 maj 2022 o 11:08 Xintong Song > napisał(a): > >>>> > >>>> > Thank you~ > >>>> > > >>>> > Xintong Song > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > -- Forwarded message - > >>>> > From: Xintong Song > >>>> > Date: Fri, May 6, 2022 at 5:07 PM > >>>> > Subject: Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace > >>>> > To: private > >>>> > Cc: Chesnay Schepler > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > Hi Chesnay, > >>>> > > >>>> > Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't find this is *repeatedly* > discussed on the > >>>> > ML. The only discussions I find are [1] & [2], which are 4 years > ago. On > >>>> > the other hand, I do find many users are asking questions about > whether > >>>> > Slack should be supported [2][3
Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace
over, and >>>> over and over again, without even a way to provide a link to the previous >>>> thread, because nobody can search for it . >>>> >>>> I'm +1 for having an open and shared slack space/channel for the >>>> contributors, but I think I would be -1 for such channels for the users. >>>> >>>> For users, I would prefer to focus more on, for example, stackoverflow. >>>> With upvoting, clever sorting of the answers (not the oldest/newest at top) >>>> it's easily searchable - those features make it fit our use case much >>>> better IMO. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Piotrek >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> pt., 6 maj 2022 o 11:08 Xintong Song napisał(a): >>>> >>>> > Thank you~ >>>> > >>>> > Xintong Song >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > -- Forwarded message - >>>> > From: Xintong Song >>>> > Date: Fri, May 6, 2022 at 5:07 PM >>>> > Subject: Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace >>>> > To: private >>>> > Cc: Chesnay Schepler >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > Hi Chesnay, >>>> > >>>> > Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't find this is *repeatedly* discussed on >>>> > the >>>> > ML. The only discussions I find are [1] & [2], which are 4 years ago. On >>>> > the other hand, I do find many users are asking questions about whether >>>> > Slack should be supported [2][3][4]. Besides, I also find a recent >>>> > discussion thread from ComDev [5], where alternative communication >>>> > channels >>>> > are being discussed. It seems to me ASF is quite open to having such >>>> > additional channels and they have been worked well for many projects >>>> > already. >>>> > >>>> > I see two reasons for brining this discussion again: >>>> > 1. There are indeed many things that have change during the past 4 years. >>>> > We have more contributors, including committers and PMC members, and even >>>> > more users from various organizations and timezones. That also means more >>>> > discussions and Q&As are happening. >>>> > 2. The proposal here is different from the previous discussion. Instead >>>> > of >>>> > maintaining a channel for Flink in the ASF workspace, here we are >>>> > proposing >>>> > to create a dedicated Apache Flink slack workspace. And instead of >>>> > *moving* >>>> > the discussion to Slack, we are proposing to add a Slack Workspace as an >>>> > addition to the ML. >>>> > >>>> > Below is your opinions that I found from your previous -1 [1]. IIUR, >>>> > these >>>> > are all about the using ASF Slack Workspace. If I overlooked anything, >>>> > please let me know. >>>> > >>>> > > 1. According to INFRA-14292 < >>>> > > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-14292> the ASF Slack isn't >>>> > > run by the ASF. This alone puts this service into rather questionable >>>> > > territory as it /looks/ like an official ASF service. If anyone can >>>> > provide >>>> > > information to the contrary, please do so. >>>> > >>>> > 2. We already discuss things on the mailing lists, JIRA and GitHub. All >>>> > of >>>> > > these are available to the public, whereas the slack channel requires >>>> > > an >>>> > > @apache mail address, i.e. you have to be a committer. This minimizes >>>> > > the >>>> > > target audience rather significantly. I would much rather prefer >>>> > something >>>> > > that is also available to contributors. >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > I do agree this should be decided by the whole community. I'll forward >>>> > this >>>> > to dev@ and user@ ML. >>>> > >>>> > Thank you~ >>>> > >>>> > Xintong Song >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > [1] https://lists.apache.org/thread/gxwv49ssq82g06dbhy339x6rdxtlcv3d >>>> > [2] https://lists.apache.org/thread/kcym
Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace
I have mixed feelings about this. I have been rather visible on stack overflow, and as a result I get a lot of DMs asking for help. I enjoy helping, but want to do it on a platform where the responses can be searched and shared. It is currently the case that good questions on stack overflow frequently go unanswered because no one with the necessary expertise takes the time to respond. If the Flink community has the collective energy to do more user outreach, more involvement on stack overflow would be a good place to start. Adding slack as another way for users to request help from those who are already actively providing support on the existing communication channels might just lead to burnout. On the other hand, there are rather rare, but very interesting cases where considerable back and forth is needed to figure out what's going on. This can happen, for example, when the requirements are unusual, or when a difficult to diagnose bug is involved. In these circumstances, something like slack is much better suited than email or stack overflow. David On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:04 PM Becket Qin wrote: > Thanks for the proposal, Xintong. > > While I share the same concerns as those mentioned in the previous > discussion thread, admittedly there are benefits of having a slack channel > as a supplementary way to discuss Flink. The fact that this topic is raised > once a while indicates lasting interests. > > Personally I am open to having such a slack channel. Although it has > drawbacks, it serves a different purpose. I'd imagine that for people who > prefer instant messaging, in absence of the slack channel, a lot of > discussions might just take place offline today, which leaves no public > record at all. > > One step further, if the channel is maintained by the Flink PMC, some kind > of code of conduct might be necessary. I think the suggestions of ad-hoc > conversations, reflecting back to the emails are good starting points. I > am +1 to give it a try and see how it goes. In the worst case, we can just > stop doing this and come back to where we are right now. > > Thanks, > > Jiangjie (Becket) Qin > > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 8:55 PM Martijn Visser > wrote: > >> Hi everyone, >> >> While I see Slack having a major downside (the results are not indexed by >> external search engines, you can't link directly to Slack content unless >> you've signed up), I do think that the open source space has progressed and >> that Slack is considered as something that's invaluable to users. There are >> other Apache programs that also run it, like Apache Airflow [1]. I also see >> it as a potential option to create a more active community. >> >> A concern I can see is that users will start DMing well-known >> reviewers/committers to get a review or a PR merged. That can cause a lot >> of noise. I can go +1 for Slack, but then we need to establish a set of >> community rules. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Martijn >> >> [1] https://airflow.apache.org/community/ >> >> On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 13:59, Piotr Nowojski wrote: >> >>> Hi Xintong, >>> >>> I'm not sure if slack is the right tool for the job. IMO it works great >>> as >>> an adhoc tool for discussion between developers, but it's not searchable >>> and it's not persistent. Between devs, it works fine, as long as the >>> result >>> of the ad hoc discussions is backported to JIRA/mailing list/design doc. >>> For users, that simply would be extremely difficult to achieve. In the >>> result, I would be afraid we are answering the same questions over, and >>> over and over again, without even a way to provide a link to the previous >>> thread, because nobody can search for it . >>> >>> I'm +1 for having an open and shared slack space/channel for the >>> contributors, but I think I would be -1 for such channels for the users. >>> >>> For users, I would prefer to focus more on, for example, stackoverflow. >>> With upvoting, clever sorting of the answers (not the oldest/newest at >>> top) >>> it's easily searchable - those features make it fit our use case much >>> better IMO. >>> >>> Best, >>> Piotrek >>> >>> >>> >>> pt., 6 maj 2022 o 11:08 Xintong Song napisał(a): >>> >>> > Thank you~ >>> > >>> > Xintong Song >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > -- Forwarded message - >>> > From: Xintong Song >>> > Date: Fri, May 6, 2022 at 5:07 PM >>> > Sub
Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace
Thanks for the proposal, Xintong. While I share the same concerns as those mentioned in the previous discussion thread, admittedly there are benefits of having a slack channel as a supplementary way to discuss Flink. The fact that this topic is raised once a while indicates lasting interests. Personally I am open to having such a slack channel. Although it has drawbacks, it serves a different purpose. I'd imagine that for people who prefer instant messaging, in absence of the slack channel, a lot of discussions might just take place offline today, which leaves no public record at all. One step further, if the channel is maintained by the Flink PMC, some kind of code of conduct might be necessary. I think the suggestions of ad-hoc conversations, reflecting back to the emails are good starting points. I am +1 to give it a try and see how it goes. In the worst case, we can just stop doing this and come back to where we are right now. Thanks, Jiangjie (Becket) Qin On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 8:55 PM Martijn Visser wrote: > Hi everyone, > > While I see Slack having a major downside (the results are not indexed by > external search engines, you can't link directly to Slack content unless > you've signed up), I do think that the open source space has progressed and > that Slack is considered as something that's invaluable to users. There are > other Apache programs that also run it, like Apache Airflow [1]. I also see > it as a potential option to create a more active community. > > A concern I can see is that users will start DMing well-known > reviewers/committers to get a review or a PR merged. That can cause a lot > of noise. I can go +1 for Slack, but then we need to establish a set of > community rules. > > Best regards, > > Martijn > > [1] https://airflow.apache.org/community/ > > On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 13:59, Piotr Nowojski wrote: > >> Hi Xintong, >> >> I'm not sure if slack is the right tool for the job. IMO it works great as >> an adhoc tool for discussion between developers, but it's not searchable >> and it's not persistent. Between devs, it works fine, as long as the >> result >> of the ad hoc discussions is backported to JIRA/mailing list/design doc. >> For users, that simply would be extremely difficult to achieve. In the >> result, I would be afraid we are answering the same questions over, and >> over and over again, without even a way to provide a link to the previous >> thread, because nobody can search for it . >> >> I'm +1 for having an open and shared slack space/channel for the >> contributors, but I think I would be -1 for such channels for the users. >> >> For users, I would prefer to focus more on, for example, stackoverflow. >> With upvoting, clever sorting of the answers (not the oldest/newest at >> top) >> it's easily searchable - those features make it fit our use case much >> better IMO. >> >> Best, >> Piotrek >> >> >> >> pt., 6 maj 2022 o 11:08 Xintong Song napisał(a): >> >> > Thank you~ >> > >> > Xintong Song >> > >> > >> > >> > -- Forwarded message - >> > From: Xintong Song >> > Date: Fri, May 6, 2022 at 5:07 PM >> > Subject: Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace >> > To: private >> > Cc: Chesnay Schepler >> > >> > >> > Hi Chesnay, >> > >> > Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't find this is *repeatedly* discussed on >> the >> > ML. The only discussions I find are [1] & [2], which are 4 years ago. On >> > the other hand, I do find many users are asking questions about whether >> > Slack should be supported [2][3][4]. Besides, I also find a recent >> > discussion thread from ComDev [5], where alternative communication >> channels >> > are being discussed. It seems to me ASF is quite open to having such >> > additional channels and they have been worked well for many projects >> > already. >> > >> > I see two reasons for brining this discussion again: >> > 1. There are indeed many things that have change during the past 4 >> years. >> > We have more contributors, including committers and PMC members, and >> even >> > more users from various organizations and timezones. That also means >> more >> > discussions and Q&As are happening. >> > 2. The proposal here is different from the previous discussion. Instead >> of >> > maintaining a channel for Flink in the ASF workspace, here we are >> proposing >> > to create
Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace
Hi everyone, While I see Slack having a major downside (the results are not indexed by external search engines, you can't link directly to Slack content unless you've signed up), I do think that the open source space has progressed and that Slack is considered as something that's invaluable to users. There are other Apache programs that also run it, like Apache Airflow [1]. I also see it as a potential option to create a more active community. A concern I can see is that users will start DMing well-known reviewers/committers to get a review or a PR merged. That can cause a lot of noise. I can go +1 for Slack, but then we need to establish a set of community rules. Best regards, Martijn [1] https://airflow.apache.org/community/ On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 13:59, Piotr Nowojski wrote: > Hi Xintong, > > I'm not sure if slack is the right tool for the job. IMO it works great as > an adhoc tool for discussion between developers, but it's not searchable > and it's not persistent. Between devs, it works fine, as long as the result > of the ad hoc discussions is backported to JIRA/mailing list/design doc. > For users, that simply would be extremely difficult to achieve. In the > result, I would be afraid we are answering the same questions over, and > over and over again, without even a way to provide a link to the previous > thread, because nobody can search for it . > > I'm +1 for having an open and shared slack space/channel for the > contributors, but I think I would be -1 for such channels for the users. > > For users, I would prefer to focus more on, for example, stackoverflow. > With upvoting, clever sorting of the answers (not the oldest/newest at top) > it's easily searchable - those features make it fit our use case much > better IMO. > > Best, > Piotrek > > > > pt., 6 maj 2022 o 11:08 Xintong Song napisał(a): > > > Thank you~ > > > > Xintong Song > > > > > > > > -- Forwarded message - > > From: Xintong Song > > Date: Fri, May 6, 2022 at 5:07 PM > > Subject: Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace > > To: private > > Cc: Chesnay Schepler > > > > > > Hi Chesnay, > > > > Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't find this is *repeatedly* discussed on > the > > ML. The only discussions I find are [1] & [2], which are 4 years ago. On > > the other hand, I do find many users are asking questions about whether > > Slack should be supported [2][3][4]. Besides, I also find a recent > > discussion thread from ComDev [5], where alternative communication > channels > > are being discussed. It seems to me ASF is quite open to having such > > additional channels and they have been worked well for many projects > > already. > > > > I see two reasons for brining this discussion again: > > 1. There are indeed many things that have change during the past 4 years. > > We have more contributors, including committers and PMC members, and even > > more users from various organizations and timezones. That also means more > > discussions and Q&As are happening. > > 2. The proposal here is different from the previous discussion. Instead > of > > maintaining a channel for Flink in the ASF workspace, here we are > proposing > > to create a dedicated Apache Flink slack workspace. And instead of > *moving* > > the discussion to Slack, we are proposing to add a Slack Workspace as an > > addition to the ML. > > > > Below is your opinions that I found from your previous -1 [1]. IIUR, > these > > are all about the using ASF Slack Workspace. If I overlooked anything, > > please let me know. > > > > > 1. According to INFRA-14292 < > > > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-14292> the ASF Slack isn't > > > run by the ASF. This alone puts this service into rather questionable > > > territory as it /looks/ like an official ASF service. If anyone can > > provide > > > information to the contrary, please do so. > > > > 2. We already discuss things on the mailing lists, JIRA and GitHub. All > of > > > these are available to the public, whereas the slack channel requires > an > > > @apache mail address, i.e. you have to be a committer. This minimizes > the > > > target audience rather significantly. I would much rather prefer > > something > > > that is also available to contributors. > > > > > > I do agree this should be decided by the whole community. I'll forward > this > > to dev@ and user@ ML. > > > > Thank you~ > > > > Xintong Song
Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace
Hi Xintong, I'm not sure if slack is the right tool for the job. IMO it works great as an adhoc tool for discussion between developers, but it's not searchable and it's not persistent. Between devs, it works fine, as long as the result of the ad hoc discussions is backported to JIRA/mailing list/design doc. For users, that simply would be extremely difficult to achieve. In the result, I would be afraid we are answering the same questions over, and over and over again, without even a way to provide a link to the previous thread, because nobody can search for it . I'm +1 for having an open and shared slack space/channel for the contributors, but I think I would be -1 for such channels for the users. For users, I would prefer to focus more on, for example, stackoverflow. With upvoting, clever sorting of the answers (not the oldest/newest at top) it's easily searchable - those features make it fit our use case much better IMO. Best, Piotrek pt., 6 maj 2022 o 11:08 Xintong Song napisał(a): > Thank you~ > > Xintong Song > > > > -- Forwarded message - > From: Xintong Song > Date: Fri, May 6, 2022 at 5:07 PM > Subject: Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace > To: private > Cc: Chesnay Schepler > > > Hi Chesnay, > > Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't find this is *repeatedly* discussed on the > ML. The only discussions I find are [1] & [2], which are 4 years ago. On > the other hand, I do find many users are asking questions about whether > Slack should be supported [2][3][4]. Besides, I also find a recent > discussion thread from ComDev [5], where alternative communication channels > are being discussed. It seems to me ASF is quite open to having such > additional channels and they have been worked well for many projects > already. > > I see two reasons for brining this discussion again: > 1. There are indeed many things that have change during the past 4 years. > We have more contributors, including committers and PMC members, and even > more users from various organizations and timezones. That also means more > discussions and Q&As are happening. > 2. The proposal here is different from the previous discussion. Instead of > maintaining a channel for Flink in the ASF workspace, here we are proposing > to create a dedicated Apache Flink slack workspace. And instead of *moving* > the discussion to Slack, we are proposing to add a Slack Workspace as an > addition to the ML. > > Below is your opinions that I found from your previous -1 [1]. IIUR, these > are all about the using ASF Slack Workspace. If I overlooked anything, > please let me know. > > > 1. According to INFRA-14292 < > > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-14292> the ASF Slack isn't > > run by the ASF. This alone puts this service into rather questionable > > territory as it /looks/ like an official ASF service. If anyone can > provide > > information to the contrary, please do so. > > 2. We already discuss things on the mailing lists, JIRA and GitHub. All of > > these are available to the public, whereas the slack channel requires an > > @apache mail address, i.e. you have to be a committer. This minimizes the > > target audience rather significantly. I would much rather prefer > something > > that is also available to contributors. > > > I do agree this should be decided by the whole community. I'll forward this > to dev@ and user@ ML. > > Thank you~ > > Xintong Song > > > [1] https://lists.apache.org/thread/gxwv49ssq82g06dbhy339x6rdxtlcv3d > [2] https://lists.apache.org/thread/kcym1sozkrtwxw1fjbnwk1nqrrlzolcc > [3] https://lists.apache.org/thread/7rmd3ov6sv3wwhflp97n4czz25hvmqm6 > [4] https://lists.apache.org/thread/n5y1kzv50bkkbl3ys494dglyxl45bmts > [5] https://lists.apache.org/thread/fzwd3lj0x53hkq3od5ot0y719dn3kj1j > > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:05 PM Chesnay Schepler > wrote: > > > This has been repeatedly discussed on the ML over the years and was > > rejected every time. > > > > I don't see that anything has changed that would invalidate the > previously > > raised arguments against it, so I'm still -1 on it. > > > > This is also not something the PMC should decide anyway, but the project > > as a whole. > > > > On 06/05/2022 06:48, Jark Wu wrote: > > > > Thank Xintong, for starting this exciting topic. > > > > I think Slack would be an essential addition to the mailing list. > > I have talked with some Flink users, and they are surprised > > Flink doesn't have Slack yet, and they would love to use Slack. > > We can also see a trend that new open-source communities > > are us
