Re: Propose to discontinue supporting Apache MXNet on Windows 7

2018-09-05 Thread kellen sunderland
I've seen enough anecdotes to switch to -1.  Visual Studio 2017 claims
support for Windows 7:
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/visualstudio/productinfo/vs2017-system-requirements-vs
so I'm not sure if compiler support is really an issue.

On Tue, Sep 4, 2018 at 8:09 PM Joshua Z. Zhang  wrote:

> I have contacted some friends in industry, they claim that some controller
> PCs are still on win7 and have no plan to upgrade in near future, so I
> would strongly go -1.
>
> In terms of build system on Windows 7, MS does give warnings in VS 2015,
> but with compatibility mode, we can still install it without issue. So I
> guess it’s marketing strategy not technical problem on MS side.
>
> Zhi
>
> > On Sep 4, 2018, at 9:02 AM, sebastianb 
> wrote:
> >
> > One more data point: Mathematica still supports Windows 7 (with Platform
> Update), and we use MXNet as a backend for our neural net framework. So I
> would also vote against deprecating Windows 7 support.
> >
> >> On Sep 2, 2018, at 7:40 PM, Marco de Abreu <
> marco.g.ab...@googlemail.com.INVALID> wrote:
> >>
> >> Thanks for the data and these quite important points. I agree and hereby
> >> change my vote to -1.
> >>
> >> Barber, Christopher  schrieb am So., 2.
> Sep.
> >> 2018, 18:56:
> >>
> >>> FWIW, my company is only beginning to transition to Windows 10 now,
> and my
> >>> past experience would lead me to believe that many enterprises stick
> with
> >>> old versions of Windows long past when you think they would.
> >>>
> >>> Seems to me that if you are unwilling to deprecate python 2.7, then
> >>> continuing to support Windows 7 is a no-brainer. You are more likely
> to get
> >>> users to switch to python 3 than you are to get them to install a new
> >>> operating system.
> >>>
> >>> And do you really want to drop support for platforms that your
> competitors
> >>> still support? Given MXNet's market share, I wouldn't dream of
> dropping a
> >>> platform until after the more popular frameworks have already done so.
> >>>
> >>> I also believe that it is possible to install more recent versions of
> >>> Visual Studio on Windows 7.
> >>>
> >>> On 9/2/18, 1:57 AM, "kellen sunderland" 
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>   Google analytics are sadly probably the best numbers we're going to
> >>> get.
> >>>   Of course these numbers are likely to over-represent windows usage,
> as
> >>> I'm
> >>>   sure many people are looking up documentation on a windows machine
> >>> while
> >>>   ssh'd into a cloud instance or IoT device.
> >>>
> >>>   What's the trend over time for these numbers Mu?  Is Windows 7 usage
> >>>   relatively stable over the last year?
> >>>
> >>>   On Sun, Sep 2, 2018 at 1:58 AM Mu Li  wrote:
> >>>
>  According to google analytics, ~12% users who visited mxnet's
> >>> website are
>  using Windows 7. It's a significant number. Even though we cannot
> >>> conclude
>  that all of these users will run MXNet on Windows 7, I suggest we
> >>> still
>  support win7.
> 
>  BTW, anyone who can access mxnet's google analytics report can
> >>> verify this
>  number by following this instruction:
> 
> 
> >>>
> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/1340778/detecting-windows-7-with-google-analytics
> 
> 
> 
>  On Sat, Sep 1, 2018 at 1:55 PM Steffen Rochel <
> >>> steffenroc...@gmail.com>
>  wrote:
> 
> > I support a data driven decision. Any suggestions how we can obtain
>  insight
> > about OS usage of the MXNet user community?
> > Can we get such information from pip install statistics or should
> >>> we
> > perform a user poll on the discussion forum?
> > On the other hand the lack of data should not prevent us from
> >>> moving
> > forward and dropping support for outdated OS.
> > In any case we would have to announce dropping a platform support
> >>> at
>  least
> > a release in advance.
> > Steffen
> >
> > On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 12:21 PM Sheng Zha 
> >>> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Kellen,
> >>
> >> Thanks for the explanation. Unfortunately, I don't have the
> >>> usage data,
> > so
> >> I refrained from voting. If any of the voters have such data I'd
> >>> love
>  to
> >> see it too.
> >>
> >> -sz
> >>
> >> On 2018/08/30 14:58:09, kellen sunderland <
> >>> kellen.sunderl...@gmail.com
> >
> >> wrote:
> >>> I haven't spoken to anyone about the decision (as I'm
> >>> currently on an
> >>> island in the med) but to me the quick +1s are likely a result
> >>> of
>  this
> >>> being a fairly straightforward decision.  The factors that
> >>> went into
>  my
> >>> thinking were (1) prioritizing growing platforms rather than
>  shrinking
> >>> platforms (i.e. thinking long term rather than shirt term) and
> >>> (2)
> >> earning
> >>> our customers' trust.  Claiming support for a platform when we
> >>> can't
> >>> realistically deliver it would lose us trust.  I'd prefer to

Re: Propose to discontinue supporting Apache MXNet on Windows 7

2018-09-04 Thread Joshua Z. Zhang
I have contacted some friends in industry, they claim that some controller PCs 
are still on win7 and have no plan to upgrade in near future, so I would 
strongly go -1. 

In terms of build system on Windows 7, MS does give warnings in VS 2015, but 
with compatibility mode, we can still install it without issue. So I guess it’s 
marketing strategy not technical problem on MS side.

Zhi

> On Sep 4, 2018, at 9:02 AM, sebastianb  wrote:
> 
> One more data point: Mathematica still supports Windows 7 (with Platform 
> Update), and we use MXNet as a backend for our neural net framework. So I 
> would also vote against deprecating Windows 7 support.
> 
>> On Sep 2, 2018, at 7:40 PM, Marco de Abreu 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Thanks for the data and these quite important points. I agree and hereby
>> change my vote to -1.
>> 
>> Barber, Christopher  schrieb am So., 2. Sep.
>> 2018, 18:56:
>> 
>>> FWIW, my company is only beginning to transition to Windows 10 now, and my
>>> past experience would lead me to believe that many enterprises stick with
>>> old versions of Windows long past when you think they would.
>>> 
>>> Seems to me that if you are unwilling to deprecate python 2.7, then
>>> continuing to support Windows 7 is a no-brainer. You are more likely to get
>>> users to switch to python 3 than you are to get them to install a new
>>> operating system.
>>> 
>>> And do you really want to drop support for platforms that your competitors
>>> still support? Given MXNet's market share, I wouldn't dream of dropping a
>>> platform until after the more popular frameworks have already done so.
>>> 
>>> I also believe that it is possible to install more recent versions of
>>> Visual Studio on Windows 7.
>>> 
>>> On 9/2/18, 1:57 AM, "kellen sunderland" 
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>   Google analytics are sadly probably the best numbers we're going to
>>> get.
>>>   Of course these numbers are likely to over-represent windows usage, as
>>> I'm
>>>   sure many people are looking up documentation on a windows machine
>>> while
>>>   ssh'd into a cloud instance or IoT device.
>>> 
>>>   What's the trend over time for these numbers Mu?  Is Windows 7 usage
>>>   relatively stable over the last year?
>>> 
>>>   On Sun, Sep 2, 2018 at 1:58 AM Mu Li  wrote:
>>> 
 According to google analytics, ~12% users who visited mxnet's
>>> website are
 using Windows 7. It's a significant number. Even though we cannot
>>> conclude
 that all of these users will run MXNet on Windows 7, I suggest we
>>> still
 support win7.
 
 BTW, anyone who can access mxnet's google analytics report can
>>> verify this
 number by following this instruction:
 
 
>>> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/1340778/detecting-windows-7-with-google-analytics
 
 
 
 On Sat, Sep 1, 2018 at 1:55 PM Steffen Rochel <
>>> steffenroc...@gmail.com>
 wrote:
 
> I support a data driven decision. Any suggestions how we can obtain
 insight
> about OS usage of the MXNet user community?
> Can we get such information from pip install statistics or should
>>> we
> perform a user poll on the discussion forum?
> On the other hand the lack of data should not prevent us from
>>> moving
> forward and dropping support for outdated OS.
> In any case we would have to announce dropping a platform support
>>> at
 least
> a release in advance.
> Steffen
> 
> On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 12:21 PM Sheng Zha 
>>> wrote:
> 
>> Hi Kellen,
>> 
>> Thanks for the explanation. Unfortunately, I don't have the
>>> usage data,
> so
>> I refrained from voting. If any of the voters have such data I'd
>>> love
 to
>> see it too.
>> 
>> -sz
>> 
>> On 2018/08/30 14:58:09, kellen sunderland <
>>> kellen.sunderl...@gmail.com
> 
>> wrote:
>>> I haven't spoken to anyone about the decision (as I'm
>>> currently on an
>>> island in the med) but to me the quick +1s are likely a result
>>> of
 this
>>> being a fairly straightforward decision.  The factors that
>>> went into
 my
>>> thinking were (1) prioritizing growing platforms rather than
 shrinking
>>> platforms (i.e. thinking long term rather than shirt term) and
>>> (2)
>> earning
>>> our customers' trust.  Claiming support for a platform when we
>>> can't
>>> realistically deliver it would lose us trust.  I'd prefer to
>>> over
> deliver
>>> and under promise when it come to windows 7 for this reason.
>>> 
>>> Now on the flip side one thing I would see as valuable is to
>>> try and
> get
>>> windows builds working with clang.  This could be beneficial
>>> in the
> sense
>>> that it would be easy to maintain for mxnet devs and allow us
>>> to use
>> modern
>>> cpp on older windows machines without using vs 2013(which I
>>> consider
 a
>>> non-starter with our codebase).
>>> 
>>> You have peaked my curiousity though 

Re: Propose to discontinue supporting Apache MXNet on Windows 7

2018-09-04 Thread sebastianb
One more data point: Mathematica still supports Windows 7 (with Platform 
Update), and we use MXNet as a backend for our neural net framework. So I would 
also vote against deprecating Windows 7 support.

> On Sep 2, 2018, at 7:40 PM, Marco de Abreu 
>  wrote:
> 
> Thanks for the data and these quite important points. I agree and hereby
> change my vote to -1.
> 
> Barber, Christopher  schrieb am So., 2. Sep.
> 2018, 18:56:
> 
>> FWIW, my company is only beginning to transition to Windows 10 now, and my
>> past experience would lead me to believe that many enterprises stick with
>> old versions of Windows long past when you think they would.
>> 
>> Seems to me that if you are unwilling to deprecate python 2.7, then
>> continuing to support Windows 7 is a no-brainer. You are more likely to get
>> users to switch to python 3 than you are to get them to install a new
>> operating system.
>> 
>> And do you really want to drop support for platforms that your competitors
>> still support? Given MXNet's market share, I wouldn't dream of dropping a
>> platform until after the more popular frameworks have already done so.
>> 
>> I also believe that it is possible to install more recent versions of
>> Visual Studio on Windows 7.
>> 
>> On 9/2/18, 1:57 AM, "kellen sunderland" 
>> wrote:
>> 
>>Google analytics are sadly probably the best numbers we're going to
>> get.
>>Of course these numbers are likely to over-represent windows usage, as
>> I'm
>>sure many people are looking up documentation on a windows machine
>> while
>>ssh'd into a cloud instance or IoT device.
>> 
>>What's the trend over time for these numbers Mu?  Is Windows 7 usage
>>relatively stable over the last year?
>> 
>>On Sun, Sep 2, 2018 at 1:58 AM Mu Li  wrote:
>> 
>>> According to google analytics, ~12% users who visited mxnet's
>> website are
>>> using Windows 7. It's a significant number. Even though we cannot
>> conclude
>>> that all of these users will run MXNet on Windows 7, I suggest we
>> still
>>> support win7.
>>> 
>>> BTW, anyone who can access mxnet's google analytics report can
>> verify this
>>> number by following this instruction:
>>> 
>>> 
>> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/1340778/detecting-windows-7-with-google-analytics
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Sat, Sep 1, 2018 at 1:55 PM Steffen Rochel <
>> steffenroc...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> 
 I support a data driven decision. Any suggestions how we can obtain
>>> insight
 about OS usage of the MXNet user community?
 Can we get such information from pip install statistics or should
>> we
 perform a user poll on the discussion forum?
 On the other hand the lack of data should not prevent us from
>> moving
 forward and dropping support for outdated OS.
 In any case we would have to announce dropping a platform support
>> at
>>> least
 a release in advance.
 Steffen
 
 On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 12:21 PM Sheng Zha 
>> wrote:
 
> Hi Kellen,
> 
> Thanks for the explanation. Unfortunately, I don't have the
>> usage data,
 so
> I refrained from voting. If any of the voters have such data I'd
>> love
>>> to
> see it too.
> 
> -sz
> 
> On 2018/08/30 14:58:09, kellen sunderland <
>> kellen.sunderl...@gmail.com
 
> wrote:
>> I haven't spoken to anyone about the decision (as I'm
>> currently on an
>> island in the med) but to me the quick +1s are likely a result
>> of
>>> this
>> being a fairly straightforward decision.  The factors that
>> went into
>>> my
>> thinking were (1) prioritizing growing platforms rather than
>>> shrinking
>> platforms (i.e. thinking long term rather than shirt term) and
>> (2)
> earning
>> our customers' trust.  Claiming support for a platform when we
>> can't
>> realistically deliver it would lose us trust.  I'd prefer to
>> over
 deliver
>> and under promise when it come to windows 7 for this reason.
>> 
>> Now on the flip side one thing I would see as valuable is to
>> try and
 get
>> windows builds working with clang.  This could be beneficial
>> in the
 sense
>> that it would be easy to maintain for mxnet devs and allow us
>> to use
> modern
>> cpp on older windows machines without using vs 2013(which I
>> consider
>>> a
>> non-starter with our codebase).
>> 
>> You have peaked my curiousity though Sheng.  How many win7
>> users does
> MXNet
>> have relative to macos/Linux?
>> 
>> On Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 8:51 AM Sheng Zha 
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi Yuan,
>>> 
>>> No problem. This is an issue that's worth having a clear
>>> definition,
 so
>>> there's nothing wrong about your proposal, and thanks for
>> bringing
> this up.
>>> 
>>> I'm more concerned about the seemingly unanimous votes on
>> dropping
> support
>>> on a platform without seeing the supporting evidence that
>> it's the
> right
>>> thing. It 

Re: Propose to discontinue supporting Apache MXNet on Windows 7

2018-09-03 Thread shiwen hu
The known problem with Win7 now is
https://github.com/apache/incubator-mxnet/issues/9271.
Because I've upgraded Win10, so I can't reproduce this problem, and I can't
solve it.
I am not sure whether the problem has been solved now.
I am sorry about this

shiwen hu  于2018年9月3日周一 下午7:43写道:

> At present, all precompiled packages are win10-compiled.
> There are no large-scale reports that can no run win7.
> Therefore, there is no problem for all precompiled package users to stop
> or continue supporting.
>
> Timur Shenkao  于2018年9月3日周一 下午5:14写道:
>
>> Users live like you described: install mxnet, then import fails, switch to
>> TF or Pytorch and forget mxnet forever.
>>
>> Only very stubborn users spend time in loop: compiling / building wheel /
>> conda package on external machine, copy to destination machine, fail with
>> some dependency error, etc. Until patience is lost or something workable
>> is
>> created.
>>
>> On Monday, September 3, 2018, Lin Yuan  wrote:
>>
>> > Thanks for all the constructive discussions. I have a few thoughts on
>> this
>> > topic:
>> >
>> > When we say we support a particular platform X, I suppose it means the
>> > following processes in production:
>> >
>> > 1) Active developer support, the minimum of which is a clear
>> instruction to
>> > build from source on X.
>> > 2) Thorough test in each release/patch on X.
>> > 3) Continuous integration on X
>> >
>> > It seems today we are missing all of them for Windows 7 (correct me if
>> I am
>> > wrong). I have found issues opened over 9 months ago #9271
>> >  which fails
>> simply
>> > by importing mxnet and exiting on Windows 7. Thus, I am wondering how
>> many
>> > users are actually running MXNet on Windows 7 for meaningful work. How
>> did
>> > live by with such an obvious blocker.
>> >
>> > If we do have a large active user base to support, we then should
>> dedicate
>> > resource to implement the above three items in order to claim that we
>> > support Windows 7. After all, maybe we should change the thread topic to
>> > "Should we start supporting Windows 7 again?" :)
>> >
>> > I really appreciate your valuable comments. Have a great labor day
>> weekend!
>> >
>> > Lin
>> >
>> >
>> > On Sun, Sep 2, 2018 at 12:37 PM Timur Shenkao 
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > > >> I also believe that it is possible to install more recent >>
>> versions
>> > of
>> > > Visual Studio on Windows 7.
>> > >
>> > > It's about security reasons and AD permissions and bought licenses for
>> > VS,
>> > > not about general technical impossibility of installation of
>> up-to-date
>> > > versions.
>> > >
>> > > On Sunday, September 2, 2018, Marco de Abreu
>> > >  wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > Thanks for the data and these quite important points. I agree and
>> > hereby
>> > > > change my vote to -1.
>> > > >
>> > > > Barber, Christopher  schrieb am
>> So., 2.
>> > > > Sep.
>> > > > 2018, 18:56:
>> > > >
>> > > > > FWIW, my company is only beginning to transition to Windows 10
>> now,
>> > and
>> > > > my
>> > > > > past experience would lead me to believe that many enterprises
>> stick
>> > > with
>> > > > > old versions of Windows long past when you think they would.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Seems to me that if you are unwilling to deprecate python 2.7,
>> then
>> > > > > continuing to support Windows 7 is a no-brainer. You are more
>> likely
>> > to
>> > > > get
>> > > > > users to switch to python 3 than you are to get them to install a
>> new
>> > > > > operating system.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > And do you really want to drop support for platforms that your
>> > > > competitors
>> > > > > still support? Given MXNet's market share, I wouldn't dream of
>> > > dropping a
>> > > > > platform until after the more popular frameworks have already done
>> > so.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > I also believe that it is possible to install more recent
>> versions of
>> > > > > Visual Studio on Windows 7.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > On 9/2/18, 1:57 AM, "kellen sunderland" <
>> > kellen.sunderl...@gmail.com>
>> > > > > wrote:
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Google analytics are sadly probably the best numbers we're
>> going
>> > to
>> > > > > get.
>> > > > > Of course these numbers are likely to over-represent windows
>> > usage,
>> > > > as
>> > > > > I'm
>> > > > > sure many people are looking up documentation on a windows
>> > machine
>> > > > > while
>> > > > > ssh'd into a cloud instance or IoT device.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > What's the trend over time for these numbers Mu?  Is Windows 7
>> > > usage
>> > > > > relatively stable over the last year?
>> > > > >
>> > > > > On Sun, Sep 2, 2018 at 1:58 AM Mu Li 
>> wrote:
>> > > > >
>> > > > > > According to google analytics, ~12% users who visited
>> mxnet's
>> > > > > website are
>> > > > > > using Windows 7. It's a significant number. Even though we
>> > cannot
>> > > > > conclude
>> > > > > > that all of these users will run MXNet on Windows 7, I
>> suggest
>> > we

Re: Propose to discontinue supporting Apache MXNet on Windows 7

2018-09-03 Thread shiwen hu
At present, all precompiled packages are win10-compiled.
There are no large-scale reports that can no run win7.
Therefore, there is no problem for all precompiled package users to stop or
continue supporting.

Timur Shenkao  于2018年9月3日周一 下午5:14写道:

> Users live like you described: install mxnet, then import fails, switch to
> TF or Pytorch and forget mxnet forever.
>
> Only very stubborn users spend time in loop: compiling / building wheel /
> conda package on external machine, copy to destination machine, fail with
> some dependency error, etc. Until patience is lost or something workable is
> created.
>
> On Monday, September 3, 2018, Lin Yuan  wrote:
>
> > Thanks for all the constructive discussions. I have a few thoughts on
> this
> > topic:
> >
> > When we say we support a particular platform X, I suppose it means the
> > following processes in production:
> >
> > 1) Active developer support, the minimum of which is a clear instruction
> to
> > build from source on X.
> > 2) Thorough test in each release/patch on X.
> > 3) Continuous integration on X
> >
> > It seems today we are missing all of them for Windows 7 (correct me if I
> am
> > wrong). I have found issues opened over 9 months ago #9271
> >  which fails
> simply
> > by importing mxnet and exiting on Windows 7. Thus, I am wondering how
> many
> > users are actually running MXNet on Windows 7 for meaningful work. How
> did
> > live by with such an obvious blocker.
> >
> > If we do have a large active user base to support, we then should
> dedicate
> > resource to implement the above three items in order to claim that we
> > support Windows 7. After all, maybe we should change the thread topic to
> > "Should we start supporting Windows 7 again?" :)
> >
> > I really appreciate your valuable comments. Have a great labor day
> weekend!
> >
> > Lin
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Sep 2, 2018 at 12:37 PM Timur Shenkao  wrote:
> >
> > > >> I also believe that it is possible to install more recent >>
> versions
> > of
> > > Visual Studio on Windows 7.
> > >
> > > It's about security reasons and AD permissions and bought licenses for
> > VS,
> > > not about general technical impossibility of installation of up-to-date
> > > versions.
> > >
> > > On Sunday, September 2, 2018, Marco de Abreu
> > >  wrote:
> > >
> > > > Thanks for the data and these quite important points. I agree and
> > hereby
> > > > change my vote to -1.
> > > >
> > > > Barber, Christopher  schrieb am So.,
> 2.
> > > > Sep.
> > > > 2018, 18:56:
> > > >
> > > > > FWIW, my company is only beginning to transition to Windows 10 now,
> > and
> > > > my
> > > > > past experience would lead me to believe that many enterprises
> stick
> > > with
> > > > > old versions of Windows long past when you think they would.
> > > > >
> > > > > Seems to me that if you are unwilling to deprecate python 2.7, then
> > > > > continuing to support Windows 7 is a no-brainer. You are more
> likely
> > to
> > > > get
> > > > > users to switch to python 3 than you are to get them to install a
> new
> > > > > operating system.
> > > > >
> > > > > And do you really want to drop support for platforms that your
> > > > competitors
> > > > > still support? Given MXNet's market share, I wouldn't dream of
> > > dropping a
> > > > > platform until after the more popular frameworks have already done
> > so.
> > > > >
> > > > > I also believe that it is possible to install more recent versions
> of
> > > > > Visual Studio on Windows 7.
> > > > >
> > > > > On 9/2/18, 1:57 AM, "kellen sunderland" <
> > kellen.sunderl...@gmail.com>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Google analytics are sadly probably the best numbers we're
> going
> > to
> > > > > get.
> > > > > Of course these numbers are likely to over-represent windows
> > usage,
> > > > as
> > > > > I'm
> > > > > sure many people are looking up documentation on a windows
> > machine
> > > > > while
> > > > > ssh'd into a cloud instance or IoT device.
> > > > >
> > > > > What's the trend over time for these numbers Mu?  Is Windows 7
> > > usage
> > > > > relatively stable over the last year?
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sun, Sep 2, 2018 at 1:58 AM Mu Li 
> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > According to google analytics, ~12% users who visited mxnet's
> > > > > website are
> > > > > > using Windows 7. It's a significant number. Even though we
> > cannot
> > > > > conclude
> > > > > > that all of these users will run MXNet on Windows 7, I
> suggest
> > we
> > > > > still
> > > > > > support win7.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > BTW, anyone who can access mxnet's google analytics report
> can
> > > > > verify this
> > > > > > number by following this instruction:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > https://stackoverflow.com/questions/1340778/detecting-
> > > > windows-7-with-google-analytics
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Sat, Sep 1, 2018 at 1:55 PM 

Re: Propose to discontinue supporting Apache MXNet on Windows 7

2018-09-03 Thread Timur Shenkao
Users live like you described: install mxnet, then import fails, switch to
TF or Pytorch and forget mxnet forever.

Only very stubborn users spend time in loop: compiling / building wheel /
conda package on external machine, copy to destination machine, fail with
some dependency error, etc. Until patience is lost or something workable is
created.

On Monday, September 3, 2018, Lin Yuan  wrote:

> Thanks for all the constructive discussions. I have a few thoughts on this
> topic:
>
> When we say we support a particular platform X, I suppose it means the
> following processes in production:
>
> 1) Active developer support, the minimum of which is a clear instruction to
> build from source on X.
> 2) Thorough test in each release/patch on X.
> 3) Continuous integration on X
>
> It seems today we are missing all of them for Windows 7 (correct me if I am
> wrong). I have found issues opened over 9 months ago #9271
>  which fails simply
> by importing mxnet and exiting on Windows 7. Thus, I am wondering how many
> users are actually running MXNet on Windows 7 for meaningful work. How did
> live by with such an obvious blocker.
>
> If we do have a large active user base to support, we then should dedicate
> resource to implement the above three items in order to claim that we
> support Windows 7. After all, maybe we should change the thread topic to
> "Should we start supporting Windows 7 again?" :)
>
> I really appreciate your valuable comments. Have a great labor day weekend!
>
> Lin
>
>
> On Sun, Sep 2, 2018 at 12:37 PM Timur Shenkao  wrote:
>
> > >> I also believe that it is possible to install more recent >> versions
> of
> > Visual Studio on Windows 7.
> >
> > It's about security reasons and AD permissions and bought licenses for
> VS,
> > not about general technical impossibility of installation of up-to-date
> > versions.
> >
> > On Sunday, September 2, 2018, Marco de Abreu
> >  wrote:
> >
> > > Thanks for the data and these quite important points. I agree and
> hereby
> > > change my vote to -1.
> > >
> > > Barber, Christopher  schrieb am So., 2.
> > > Sep.
> > > 2018, 18:56:
> > >
> > > > FWIW, my company is only beginning to transition to Windows 10 now,
> and
> > > my
> > > > past experience would lead me to believe that many enterprises stick
> > with
> > > > old versions of Windows long past when you think they would.
> > > >
> > > > Seems to me that if you are unwilling to deprecate python 2.7, then
> > > > continuing to support Windows 7 is a no-brainer. You are more likely
> to
> > > get
> > > > users to switch to python 3 than you are to get them to install a new
> > > > operating system.
> > > >
> > > > And do you really want to drop support for platforms that your
> > > competitors
> > > > still support? Given MXNet's market share, I wouldn't dream of
> > dropping a
> > > > platform until after the more popular frameworks have already done
> so.
> > > >
> > > > I also believe that it is possible to install more recent versions of
> > > > Visual Studio on Windows 7.
> > > >
> > > > On 9/2/18, 1:57 AM, "kellen sunderland" <
> kellen.sunderl...@gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Google analytics are sadly probably the best numbers we're going
> to
> > > > get.
> > > > Of course these numbers are likely to over-represent windows
> usage,
> > > as
> > > > I'm
> > > > sure many people are looking up documentation on a windows
> machine
> > > > while
> > > > ssh'd into a cloud instance or IoT device.
> > > >
> > > > What's the trend over time for these numbers Mu?  Is Windows 7
> > usage
> > > > relatively stable over the last year?
> > > >
> > > > On Sun, Sep 2, 2018 at 1:58 AM Mu Li  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > According to google analytics, ~12% users who visited mxnet's
> > > > website are
> > > > > using Windows 7. It's a significant number. Even though we
> cannot
> > > > conclude
> > > > > that all of these users will run MXNet on Windows 7, I suggest
> we
> > > > still
> > > > > support win7.
> > > > >
> > > > > BTW, anyone who can access mxnet's google analytics report can
> > > > verify this
> > > > > number by following this instruction:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > https://stackoverflow.com/questions/1340778/detecting-
> > > windows-7-with-google-analytics
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sat, Sep 1, 2018 at 1:55 PM Steffen Rochel <
> > > > steffenroc...@gmail.com>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > I support a data driven decision. Any suggestions how we can
> > > obtain
> > > > > insight
> > > > > > about OS usage of the MXNet user community?
> > > > > > Can we get such information from pip install statistics or
> > should
> > > > we
> > > > > > perform a user poll on the discussion forum?
> > > > > > On the other hand the lack of data should not prevent us from
> > > > moving
> > > > > > forward and 

Re: Propose to discontinue supporting Apache MXNet on Windows 7

2018-09-03 Thread Lin Yuan
Thanks for all the constructive discussions. I have a few thoughts on this
topic:

When we say we support a particular platform X, I suppose it means the
following processes in production:

1) Active developer support, the minimum of which is a clear instruction to
build from source on X.
2) Thorough test in each release/patch on X.
3) Continuous integration on X

It seems today we are missing all of them for Windows 7 (correct me if I am
wrong). I have found issues opened over 9 months ago #9271
 which fails simply
by importing mxnet and exiting on Windows 7. Thus, I am wondering how many
users are actually running MXNet on Windows 7 for meaningful work. How did
live by with such an obvious blocker.

If we do have a large active user base to support, we then should dedicate
resource to implement the above three items in order to claim that we
support Windows 7. After all, maybe we should change the thread topic to
"Should we start supporting Windows 7 again?" :)

I really appreciate your valuable comments. Have a great labor day weekend!

Lin


On Sun, Sep 2, 2018 at 12:37 PM Timur Shenkao  wrote:

> >> I also believe that it is possible to install more recent >> versions of
> Visual Studio on Windows 7.
>
> It's about security reasons and AD permissions and bought licenses for VS,
> not about general technical impossibility of installation of up-to-date
> versions.
>
> On Sunday, September 2, 2018, Marco de Abreu
>  wrote:
>
> > Thanks for the data and these quite important points. I agree and hereby
> > change my vote to -1.
> >
> > Barber, Christopher  schrieb am So., 2.
> > Sep.
> > 2018, 18:56:
> >
> > > FWIW, my company is only beginning to transition to Windows 10 now, and
> > my
> > > past experience would lead me to believe that many enterprises stick
> with
> > > old versions of Windows long past when you think they would.
> > >
> > > Seems to me that if you are unwilling to deprecate python 2.7, then
> > > continuing to support Windows 7 is a no-brainer. You are more likely to
> > get
> > > users to switch to python 3 than you are to get them to install a new
> > > operating system.
> > >
> > > And do you really want to drop support for platforms that your
> > competitors
> > > still support? Given MXNet's market share, I wouldn't dream of
> dropping a
> > > platform until after the more popular frameworks have already done so.
> > >
> > > I also believe that it is possible to install more recent versions of
> > > Visual Studio on Windows 7.
> > >
> > > On 9/2/18, 1:57 AM, "kellen sunderland" 
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > Google analytics are sadly probably the best numbers we're going to
> > > get.
> > > Of course these numbers are likely to over-represent windows usage,
> > as
> > > I'm
> > > sure many people are looking up documentation on a windows machine
> > > while
> > > ssh'd into a cloud instance or IoT device.
> > >
> > > What's the trend over time for these numbers Mu?  Is Windows 7
> usage
> > > relatively stable over the last year?
> > >
> > > On Sun, Sep 2, 2018 at 1:58 AM Mu Li  wrote:
> > >
> > > > According to google analytics, ~12% users who visited mxnet's
> > > website are
> > > > using Windows 7. It's a significant number. Even though we cannot
> > > conclude
> > > > that all of these users will run MXNet on Windows 7, I suggest we
> > > still
> > > > support win7.
> > > >
> > > > BTW, anyone who can access mxnet's google analytics report can
> > > verify this
> > > > number by following this instruction:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > https://stackoverflow.com/questions/1340778/detecting-
> > windows-7-with-google-analytics
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Sat, Sep 1, 2018 at 1:55 PM Steffen Rochel <
> > > steffenroc...@gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I support a data driven decision. Any suggestions how we can
> > obtain
> > > > insight
> > > > > about OS usage of the MXNet user community?
> > > > > Can we get such information from pip install statistics or
> should
> > > we
> > > > > perform a user poll on the discussion forum?
> > > > > On the other hand the lack of data should not prevent us from
> > > moving
> > > > > forward and dropping support for outdated OS.
> > > > > In any case we would have to announce dropping a platform
> support
> > > at
> > > > least
> > > > > a release in advance.
> > > > > Steffen
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 12:21 PM Sheng Zha <
> zhash...@apache.org>
> > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hi Kellen,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks for the explanation. Unfortunately, I don't have the
> > > usage data,
> > > > > so
> > > > > > I refrained from voting. If any of the voters have such data
> > I'd
> > > love
> > > > to
> > > > > > see it too.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -sz
> > > > > >
> > > > 

Re: Propose to discontinue supporting Apache MXNet on Windows 7

2018-09-02 Thread Timur Shenkao
>> I also believe that it is possible to install more recent >> versions of
Visual Studio on Windows 7.

It's about security reasons and AD permissions and bought licenses for VS,
not about general technical impossibility of installation of up-to-date
versions.

On Sunday, September 2, 2018, Marco de Abreu
 wrote:

> Thanks for the data and these quite important points. I agree and hereby
> change my vote to -1.
>
> Barber, Christopher  schrieb am So., 2.
> Sep.
> 2018, 18:56:
>
> > FWIW, my company is only beginning to transition to Windows 10 now, and
> my
> > past experience would lead me to believe that many enterprises stick with
> > old versions of Windows long past when you think they would.
> >
> > Seems to me that if you are unwilling to deprecate python 2.7, then
> > continuing to support Windows 7 is a no-brainer. You are more likely to
> get
> > users to switch to python 3 than you are to get them to install a new
> > operating system.
> >
> > And do you really want to drop support for platforms that your
> competitors
> > still support? Given MXNet's market share, I wouldn't dream of dropping a
> > platform until after the more popular frameworks have already done so.
> >
> > I also believe that it is possible to install more recent versions of
> > Visual Studio on Windows 7.
> >
> > On 9/2/18, 1:57 AM, "kellen sunderland" 
> > wrote:
> >
> > Google analytics are sadly probably the best numbers we're going to
> > get.
> > Of course these numbers are likely to over-represent windows usage,
> as
> > I'm
> > sure many people are looking up documentation on a windows machine
> > while
> > ssh'd into a cloud instance or IoT device.
> >
> > What's the trend over time for these numbers Mu?  Is Windows 7 usage
> > relatively stable over the last year?
> >
> > On Sun, Sep 2, 2018 at 1:58 AM Mu Li  wrote:
> >
> > > According to google analytics, ~12% users who visited mxnet's
> > website are
> > > using Windows 7. It's a significant number. Even though we cannot
> > conclude
> > > that all of these users will run MXNet on Windows 7, I suggest we
> > still
> > > support win7.
> > >
> > > BTW, anyone who can access mxnet's google analytics report can
> > verify this
> > > number by following this instruction:
> > >
> > >
> > https://stackoverflow.com/questions/1340778/detecting-
> windows-7-with-google-analytics
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sat, Sep 1, 2018 at 1:55 PM Steffen Rochel <
> > steffenroc...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > I support a data driven decision. Any suggestions how we can
> obtain
> > > insight
> > > > about OS usage of the MXNet user community?
> > > > Can we get such information from pip install statistics or should
> > we
> > > > perform a user poll on the discussion forum?
> > > > On the other hand the lack of data should not prevent us from
> > moving
> > > > forward and dropping support for outdated OS.
> > > > In any case we would have to announce dropping a platform support
> > at
> > > least
> > > > a release in advance.
> > > > Steffen
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 12:21 PM Sheng Zha 
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi Kellen,
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks for the explanation. Unfortunately, I don't have the
> > usage data,
> > > > so
> > > > > I refrained from voting. If any of the voters have such data
> I'd
> > love
> > > to
> > > > > see it too.
> > > > >
> > > > > -sz
> > > > >
> > > > > On 2018/08/30 14:58:09, kellen sunderland <
> > kellen.sunderl...@gmail.com
> > > >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > I haven't spoken to anyone about the decision (as I'm
> > currently on an
> > > > > > island in the med) but to me the quick +1s are likely a
> result
> > of
> > > this
> > > > > > being a fairly straightforward decision.  The factors that
> > went into
> > > my
> > > > > > thinking were (1) prioritizing growing platforms rather than
> > > shrinking
> > > > > > platforms (i.e. thinking long term rather than shirt term)
> and
> > (2)
> > > > > earning
> > > > > > our customers' trust.  Claiming support for a platform when
> we
> > can't
> > > > > > realistically deliver it would lose us trust.  I'd prefer to
> > over
> > > > deliver
> > > > > > and under promise when it come to windows 7 for this reason.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Now on the flip side one thing I would see as valuable is to
> > try and
> > > > get
> > > > > > windows builds working with clang.  This could be beneficial
> > in the
> > > > sense
> > > > > > that it would be easy to maintain for mxnet devs and allow us
> > to use
> > > > > modern
> > > > > > cpp on older windows machines without using vs 2013(which I
> > consider
> > > a
> > > > > > non-starter with our codebase).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You have 

Re: Propose to discontinue supporting Apache MXNet on Windows 7

2018-09-02 Thread Marco de Abreu
Thanks for the data and these quite important points. I agree and hereby
change my vote to -1.

Barber, Christopher  schrieb am So., 2. Sep.
2018, 18:56:

> FWIW, my company is only beginning to transition to Windows 10 now, and my
> past experience would lead me to believe that many enterprises stick with
> old versions of Windows long past when you think they would.
>
> Seems to me that if you are unwilling to deprecate python 2.7, then
> continuing to support Windows 7 is a no-brainer. You are more likely to get
> users to switch to python 3 than you are to get them to install a new
> operating system.
>
> And do you really want to drop support for platforms that your competitors
> still support? Given MXNet's market share, I wouldn't dream of dropping a
> platform until after the more popular frameworks have already done so.
>
> I also believe that it is possible to install more recent versions of
> Visual Studio on Windows 7.
>
> On 9/2/18, 1:57 AM, "kellen sunderland" 
> wrote:
>
> Google analytics are sadly probably the best numbers we're going to
> get.
> Of course these numbers are likely to over-represent windows usage, as
> I'm
> sure many people are looking up documentation on a windows machine
> while
> ssh'd into a cloud instance or IoT device.
>
> What's the trend over time for these numbers Mu?  Is Windows 7 usage
> relatively stable over the last year?
>
> On Sun, Sep 2, 2018 at 1:58 AM Mu Li  wrote:
>
> > According to google analytics, ~12% users who visited mxnet's
> website are
> > using Windows 7. It's a significant number. Even though we cannot
> conclude
> > that all of these users will run MXNet on Windows 7, I suggest we
> still
> > support win7.
> >
> > BTW, anyone who can access mxnet's google analytics report can
> verify this
> > number by following this instruction:
> >
> >
> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/1340778/detecting-windows-7-with-google-analytics
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Sep 1, 2018 at 1:55 PM Steffen Rochel <
> steffenroc...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > I support a data driven decision. Any suggestions how we can obtain
> > insight
> > > about OS usage of the MXNet user community?
> > > Can we get such information from pip install statistics or should
> we
> > > perform a user poll on the discussion forum?
> > > On the other hand the lack of data should not prevent us from
> moving
> > > forward and dropping support for outdated OS.
> > > In any case we would have to announce dropping a platform support
> at
> > least
> > > a release in advance.
> > > Steffen
> > >
> > > On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 12:21 PM Sheng Zha 
> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi Kellen,
> > > >
> > > > Thanks for the explanation. Unfortunately, I don't have the
> usage data,
> > > so
> > > > I refrained from voting. If any of the voters have such data I'd
> love
> > to
> > > > see it too.
> > > >
> > > > -sz
> > > >
> > > > On 2018/08/30 14:58:09, kellen sunderland <
> kellen.sunderl...@gmail.com
> > >
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > I haven't spoken to anyone about the decision (as I'm
> currently on an
> > > > > island in the med) but to me the quick +1s are likely a result
> of
> > this
> > > > > being a fairly straightforward decision.  The factors that
> went into
> > my
> > > > > thinking were (1) prioritizing growing platforms rather than
> > shrinking
> > > > > platforms (i.e. thinking long term rather than shirt term) and
> (2)
> > > > earning
> > > > > our customers' trust.  Claiming support for a platform when we
> can't
> > > > > realistically deliver it would lose us trust.  I'd prefer to
> over
> > > deliver
> > > > > and under promise when it come to windows 7 for this reason.
> > > > >
> > > > > Now on the flip side one thing I would see as valuable is to
> try and
> > > get
> > > > > windows builds working with clang.  This could be beneficial
> in the
> > > sense
> > > > > that it would be easy to maintain for mxnet devs and allow us
> to use
> > > > modern
> > > > > cpp on older windows machines without using vs 2013(which I
> consider
> > a
> > > > > non-starter with our codebase).
> > > > >
> > > > > You have peaked my curiousity though Sheng.  How many win7
> users does
> > > > MXNet
> > > > > have relative to macos/Linux?
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 8:51 AM Sheng Zha 
> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hi Yuan,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > No problem. This is an issue that's worth having a clear
> > definition,
> > > so
> > > > > > there's nothing wrong about your proposal, and thanks for
> bringing
> > > > this up.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'm more concerned about the seemingly unanimous votes on
> dropping
> > > > support
>

Re: Propose to discontinue supporting Apache MXNet on Windows 7

2018-09-02 Thread Barber, Christopher
FWIW, my company is only beginning to transition to Windows 10 now, and my past 
experience would lead me to believe that many enterprises stick with old 
versions of Windows long past when you think they would.

Seems to me that if you are unwilling to deprecate python 2.7, then continuing 
to support Windows 7 is a no-brainer. You are more likely to get users to 
switch to python 3 than you are to get them to install a new operating system.

And do you really want to drop support for platforms that your competitors 
still support? Given MXNet's market share, I wouldn't dream of dropping a 
platform until after the more popular frameworks have already done so.

I also believe that it is possible to install more recent versions of Visual 
Studio on Windows 7. 

On 9/2/18, 1:57 AM, "kellen sunderland"  wrote:

Google analytics are sadly probably the best numbers we're going to get.
Of course these numbers are likely to over-represent windows usage, as I'm
sure many people are looking up documentation on a windows machine while
ssh'd into a cloud instance or IoT device.

What's the trend over time for these numbers Mu?  Is Windows 7 usage
relatively stable over the last year?

On Sun, Sep 2, 2018 at 1:58 AM Mu Li  wrote:

> According to google analytics, ~12% users who visited mxnet's website are
> using Windows 7. It's a significant number. Even though we cannot conclude
> that all of these users will run MXNet on Windows 7, I suggest we still
> support win7.
>
> BTW, anyone who can access mxnet's google analytics report can verify this
> number by following this instruction:
>
> 
https://stackoverflow.com/questions/1340778/detecting-windows-7-with-google-analytics
>
>
>
> On Sat, Sep 1, 2018 at 1:55 PM Steffen Rochel 
> wrote:
>
> > I support a data driven decision. Any suggestions how we can obtain
> insight
> > about OS usage of the MXNet user community?
> > Can we get such information from pip install statistics or should we
> > perform a user poll on the discussion forum?
> > On the other hand the lack of data should not prevent us from moving
> > forward and dropping support for outdated OS.
> > In any case we would have to announce dropping a platform support at
> least
> > a release in advance.
> > Steffen
> >
> > On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 12:21 PM Sheng Zha  wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Kellen,
> > >
> > > Thanks for the explanation. Unfortunately, I don't have the usage 
data,
> > so
> > > I refrained from voting. If any of the voters have such data I'd love
> to
> > > see it too.
> > >
> > > -sz
> > >
> > > On 2018/08/30 14:58:09, kellen sunderland  >
> > > wrote:
> > > > I haven't spoken to anyone about the decision (as I'm currently on 
an
> > > > island in the med) but to me the quick +1s are likely a result of
> this
> > > > being a fairly straightforward decision.  The factors that went into
> my
> > > > thinking were (1) prioritizing growing platforms rather than
> shrinking
> > > > platforms (i.e. thinking long term rather than shirt term) and (2)
> > > earning
> > > > our customers' trust.  Claiming support for a platform when we can't
> > > > realistically deliver it would lose us trust.  I'd prefer to over
> > deliver
> > > > and under promise when it come to windows 7 for this reason.
> > > >
> > > > Now on the flip side one thing I would see as valuable is to try and
> > get
> > > > windows builds working with clang.  This could be beneficial in the
> > sense
> > > > that it would be easy to maintain for mxnet devs and allow us to use
> > > modern
> > > > cpp on older windows machines without using vs 2013(which I consider
> a
> > > > non-starter with our codebase).
> > > >
> > > > You have peaked my curiousity though Sheng.  How many win7 users 
does
> > > MXNet
> > > > have relative to macos/Linux?
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 8:51 AM Sheng Zha  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi Yuan,
> > > > >
> > > > > No problem. This is an issue that's worth having a clear
> definition,
> > so
> > > > > there's nothing wrong about your proposal, and thanks for bringing
> > > this up.
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm more concerned about the seemingly unanimous votes on dropping
> > > support
> > > > > on a platform without seeing the supporting evidence that it's the
> > > right
> > > > > thing. It is as if everyone who participated in the vote are
> already
> > > on the
> > > > > same page, and somehow I'm the only one that's not. But the only
> > > argument I
> > > > > hear so far is that it's technically not straightforward to
> continue
> > > the
> > > > > support, which, coming from Amazon folks, 

Re: Propose to discontinue supporting Apache MXNet on Windows 7

2018-09-02 Thread Jim Jagielski
IMO, either major or minor is fine, not just patch ;)

> On Aug 30, 2018, at 2:34 AM, Lv, Tao A  wrote:
> 
> If we really want to discontinue the support on Win7, maybe it should happen 
> in a major release like 2.0.0.
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: dev-return-4003-tao.a.lv=intel@mxnet.incubator.apache.org 
> [mailto:dev-return-4003-tao.a.lv=intel@mxnet.incubator.apache.org] 
> Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2018 2:21 PM
> To: dev@mxnet.incubator.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Propose to discontinue supporting Apache MXNet on Windows 7
> 
> Hi Hagay,
> 
> To minimize the impact to existing customers, I suggest we support MXNe 1.3 
> installation on Windows but defer all the bug fix to Windows 10 version and 
> ask users to migrate. Then we officially discontinue the support on Windows
> 7 in the 1.4 release.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Lin
> 
> On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 1:29 PM Hagay Lupesko  wrote:
> 
>> +1 (non-binding)
>> Thanks for raising this Lin!
>> Are you suggesting to do it as part of MXNet 1.3?
>> 
>> On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 9:14 AM Srivastava, Rohit Kumar < 
>> srivastava@buckeyemail.osu.edu> wrote:
>> 
>>> +1
>>> 
>>> On 8/29/18, 8:39 AM, "sandeep krishnamurthy" <
>> sandeep.krishn...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>+1 Thanks for bringing this up.
>>> 
>>>On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 6:38 AM Marco de Abreu
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> +1
>>>> 
>>>> On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 1:08 PM kellen sunderland <
>>>> kellen.sunderl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> +1 (non-binding)
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Wed, Aug 29, 2018, 1:18 AM Anirudh Acharya < 
>>> anirudhk...@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> +1 for discontinuing.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 4:11 PM Naveen Swamy <
>> mnnav...@gmail.com
>>>> 
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> +1 to stop supporting Win7
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 3:54 PM Lin Yuan <
>> apefor...@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Dear Community,
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Currently, our MXNet installation guide for Windows 
>>> does
>> not
>>> work
>>>> for
>>>>>>>> Windows 7. e.g. Microsoft Visual Studio 2015 is not 
>>> supported on
>>>>>> Windows
>>>>>>> 7
>>>>>>>> <
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>> https://visualstudio.microsoft.com/vs/support/vs2015/received-error-sp
>> ecified-program-requires-newer-version-windows/
>>>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>> In addition, MSFT ended “Mainstream” support for 
>>> Windows 7 in 2015
>>>> (
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>> https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/13853/windows-lifecycle-fact-
>> sheet
>>>>>>>> ).
>>>>>>>> Therefore, it is not possible for developers to build 
>>> MXNet and
>>>>> verify
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> fix on Windows 7 platform. Given that there have been
>> several
>>>> issues
>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>> MXNet error on Windows 7 (issue#9271
>>>>>>>> 
>>> <https://github.com/apache/incubator-mxnet/issues/9271>,
>>> issue
>>>> #8921
>>>>>>>> 
>>> <https://github.com/apache/incubator-mxnet/issues/8921>,
>>> issue
>>>>> #11163
>>>>>>>> 
>>> <https://github.com/apache/incubator-mxnet/issues/11163>),
>>> it will
>>>>>> even
>>>>>>>> add
>>>>>>>> more burden on developers in the future if we were to 
>>> continue
>>>>>> supporting
>>>>>>>> Windows 7.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I therefore would like to propose that we discontinue 
>>> the support
>>>> of
>>>>>>> MXNet
>>>>>>>> on Windows 7 in the next release.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Specifically, this means the following required actions:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 1) state the discontinuation of Windows 7 support in 
>>> the release
>>>> note
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 2) update the MXNet webpage if Windows version is
>> mentioned.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 3) update the open Github issues related to Windows 7
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Please share your thoughts about this proposal and/or 
>>> suggest if
>>>>> there
>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>> any other missing action item from the above.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Best Regards,
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Lin
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>--
>>>Sandeep Krishnamurthy
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> 



Re: Propose to discontinue supporting Apache MXNet on Windows 7

2018-09-02 Thread Timur Shenkao
Hello guys,

In banks, fintech and other financial companies, governmental
organizations, people still "use" windows 7 as they have no choice of os.
Unfortunately they often don't have opportunity to  install C/C++ compiler,
visual studio as well.
They cannot build mxnet, install specific C/ C++ libraries.
So, their only rescue is to "conda install mxnet" if conda package contains
all C/C++ dependencies or use Wheel files from this repository:
https://www.lfd.uci.edu/~gohlke/pythonlibs/

Yes, eventually their work / code is moved into dev / qa / prod Linux
clusters but they have to "play" on their local machines first.

In case of MXNet is "installable" but not "importable": conda installation
of this package
https://anaconda.org/anaconda/mxnet/1.2.1/download/win-64/mxnet-1.2.1-h8cc8929_0.tar.bz2
is successful but import fails.



Yours sincerely, Timur


Re: Propose to discontinue supporting Apache MXNet on Windows 7

2018-09-01 Thread kellen sunderland
Google analytics are sadly probably the best numbers we're going to get.
Of course these numbers are likely to over-represent windows usage, as I'm
sure many people are looking up documentation on a windows machine while
ssh'd into a cloud instance or IoT device.

What's the trend over time for these numbers Mu?  Is Windows 7 usage
relatively stable over the last year?

On Sun, Sep 2, 2018 at 1:58 AM Mu Li  wrote:

> According to google analytics, ~12% users who visited mxnet's website are
> using Windows 7. It's a significant number. Even though we cannot conclude
> that all of these users will run MXNet on Windows 7, I suggest we still
> support win7.
>
> BTW, anyone who can access mxnet's google analytics report can verify this
> number by following this instruction:
>
> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/1340778/detecting-windows-7-with-google-analytics
>
>
>
> On Sat, Sep 1, 2018 at 1:55 PM Steffen Rochel 
> wrote:
>
> > I support a data driven decision. Any suggestions how we can obtain
> insight
> > about OS usage of the MXNet user community?
> > Can we get such information from pip install statistics or should we
> > perform a user poll on the discussion forum?
> > On the other hand the lack of data should not prevent us from moving
> > forward and dropping support for outdated OS.
> > In any case we would have to announce dropping a platform support at
> least
> > a release in advance.
> > Steffen
> >
> > On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 12:21 PM Sheng Zha  wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Kellen,
> > >
> > > Thanks for the explanation. Unfortunately, I don't have the usage data,
> > so
> > > I refrained from voting. If any of the voters have such data I'd love
> to
> > > see it too.
> > >
> > > -sz
> > >
> > > On 2018/08/30 14:58:09, kellen sunderland  >
> > > wrote:
> > > > I haven't spoken to anyone about the decision (as I'm currently on an
> > > > island in the med) but to me the quick +1s are likely a result of
> this
> > > > being a fairly straightforward decision.  The factors that went into
> my
> > > > thinking were (1) prioritizing growing platforms rather than
> shrinking
> > > > platforms (i.e. thinking long term rather than shirt term) and (2)
> > > earning
> > > > our customers' trust.  Claiming support for a platform when we can't
> > > > realistically deliver it would lose us trust.  I'd prefer to over
> > deliver
> > > > and under promise when it come to windows 7 for this reason.
> > > >
> > > > Now on the flip side one thing I would see as valuable is to try and
> > get
> > > > windows builds working with clang.  This could be beneficial in the
> > sense
> > > > that it would be easy to maintain for mxnet devs and allow us to use
> > > modern
> > > > cpp on older windows machines without using vs 2013(which I consider
> a
> > > > non-starter with our codebase).
> > > >
> > > > You have peaked my curiousity though Sheng.  How many win7 users does
> > > MXNet
> > > > have relative to macos/Linux?
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 8:51 AM Sheng Zha  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi Yuan,
> > > > >
> > > > > No problem. This is an issue that's worth having a clear
> definition,
> > so
> > > > > there's nothing wrong about your proposal, and thanks for bringing
> > > this up.
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm more concerned about the seemingly unanimous votes on dropping
> > > support
> > > > > on a platform without seeing the supporting evidence that it's the
> > > right
> > > > > thing. It is as if everyone who participated in the vote are
> already
> > > on the
> > > > > same page, and somehow I'm the only one that's not. But the only
> > > argument I
> > > > > hear so far is that it's technically not straightforward to
> continue
> > > the
> > > > > support, which, coming from Amazon folks, certainly doesn't sound
> > > > > customer-obsessed.
> > > > >
> > > > > -sz
> > > > >
> > > > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 11:37 PM Lin Yuan 
> > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hi Sheng,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks for raising this concern. The problem now is that we
> cannot
> > > even
> > > > > > build MXNet on Windows 7 because the build process requires MS VS
> > > 2015 w/
> > > > > > update 3 which is incompatible on Windows 7. This leaves many
> > > Windows 7
> > > > > > related open issues on github without any timely response. In my
> > > opinion,
> > > > > > having no response to users' request is probably even worse than
> > > letting
> > > > > > them know the limitation of OS support.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > To minimize the impact to current Windows 7 users, we can provide
> > > PyPi
> > > > > > package for Windows 7 in this release but defer the bug fix and
> > > feature
> > > > > > enhancement to later Windows OS version. Based on users'
> feedbacks,
> > > we
> > > > > can
> > > > > > then officially discontinue the Windows 7 support in the next
> MXNet
> > > > > > release.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I will appreciate your comments.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Lin
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 

Re: Propose to discontinue supporting Apache MXNet on Windows 7

2018-09-01 Thread Mu Li
According to google analytics, ~12% users who visited mxnet's website are
using Windows 7. It's a significant number. Even though we cannot conclude
that all of these users will run MXNet on Windows 7, I suggest we still
support win7.

BTW, anyone who can access mxnet's google analytics report can verify this
number by following this instruction:
https://stackoverflow.com/questions/1340778/detecting-windows-7-with-google-analytics



On Sat, Sep 1, 2018 at 1:55 PM Steffen Rochel 
wrote:

> I support a data driven decision. Any suggestions how we can obtain insight
> about OS usage of the MXNet user community?
> Can we get such information from pip install statistics or should we
> perform a user poll on the discussion forum?
> On the other hand the lack of data should not prevent us from moving
> forward and dropping support for outdated OS.
> In any case we would have to announce dropping a platform support at least
> a release in advance.
> Steffen
>
> On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 12:21 PM Sheng Zha  wrote:
>
> > Hi Kellen,
> >
> > Thanks for the explanation. Unfortunately, I don't have the usage data,
> so
> > I refrained from voting. If any of the voters have such data I'd love to
> > see it too.
> >
> > -sz
> >
> > On 2018/08/30 14:58:09, kellen sunderland 
> > wrote:
> > > I haven't spoken to anyone about the decision (as I'm currently on an
> > > island in the med) but to me the quick +1s are likely a result of this
> > > being a fairly straightforward decision.  The factors that went into my
> > > thinking were (1) prioritizing growing platforms rather than shrinking
> > > platforms (i.e. thinking long term rather than shirt term) and (2)
> > earning
> > > our customers' trust.  Claiming support for a platform when we can't
> > > realistically deliver it would lose us trust.  I'd prefer to over
> deliver
> > > and under promise when it come to windows 7 for this reason.
> > >
> > > Now on the flip side one thing I would see as valuable is to try and
> get
> > > windows builds working with clang.  This could be beneficial in the
> sense
> > > that it would be easy to maintain for mxnet devs and allow us to use
> > modern
> > > cpp on older windows machines without using vs 2013(which I consider a
> > > non-starter with our codebase).
> > >
> > > You have peaked my curiousity though Sheng.  How many win7 users does
> > MXNet
> > > have relative to macos/Linux?
> > >
> > > On Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 8:51 AM Sheng Zha  wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi Yuan,
> > > >
> > > > No problem. This is an issue that's worth having a clear definition,
> so
> > > > there's nothing wrong about your proposal, and thanks for bringing
> > this up.
> > > >
> > > > I'm more concerned about the seemingly unanimous votes on dropping
> > support
> > > > on a platform without seeing the supporting evidence that it's the
> > right
> > > > thing. It is as if everyone who participated in the vote are already
> > on the
> > > > same page, and somehow I'm the only one that's not. But the only
> > argument I
> > > > hear so far is that it's technically not straightforward to continue
> > the
> > > > support, which, coming from Amazon folks, certainly doesn't sound
> > > > customer-obsessed.
> > > >
> > > > -sz
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 11:37 PM Lin Yuan 
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi Sheng,
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks for raising this concern. The problem now is that we cannot
> > even
> > > > > build MXNet on Windows 7 because the build process requires MS VS
> > 2015 w/
> > > > > update 3 which is incompatible on Windows 7. This leaves many
> > Windows 7
> > > > > related open issues on github without any timely response. In my
> > opinion,
> > > > > having no response to users' request is probably even worse than
> > letting
> > > > > them know the limitation of OS support.
> > > > >
> > > > > To minimize the impact to current Windows 7 users, we can provide
> > PyPi
> > > > > package for Windows 7 in this release but defer the bug fix and
> > feature
> > > > > enhancement to later Windows OS version. Based on users' feedbacks,
> > we
> > > > can
> > > > > then officially discontinue the Windows 7 support in the next MXNet
> > > > > release.
> > > > >
> > > > > I will appreciate your comments.
> > > > >
> > > > > Lin
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 1:37 PM Sheng Zha 
> > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Are any of the votes based on any measure of user impact, if we
> > indeed
> > > > > > decide not to fix the current problems?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -sz
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 1:29 PM Hagay Lupesko  >
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > +1 (non-binding)
> > > > > > > Thanks for raising this Lin!
> > > > > > > Are you suggesting to do it as part of MXNet 1.3?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 9:14 AM Srivastava, Rohit Kumar <
> > > > > > > srivastava@buckeyemail.osu.edu> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > +1
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On 

Re: Propose to discontinue supporting Apache MXNet on Windows 7

2018-09-01 Thread Steffen Rochel
I support a data driven decision. Any suggestions how we can obtain insight
about OS usage of the MXNet user community?
Can we get such information from pip install statistics or should we
perform a user poll on the discussion forum?
On the other hand the lack of data should not prevent us from moving
forward and dropping support for outdated OS.
In any case we would have to announce dropping a platform support at least
a release in advance.
Steffen

On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 12:21 PM Sheng Zha  wrote:

> Hi Kellen,
>
> Thanks for the explanation. Unfortunately, I don't have the usage data, so
> I refrained from voting. If any of the voters have such data I'd love to
> see it too.
>
> -sz
>
> On 2018/08/30 14:58:09, kellen sunderland 
> wrote:
> > I haven't spoken to anyone about the decision (as I'm currently on an
> > island in the med) but to me the quick +1s are likely a result of this
> > being a fairly straightforward decision.  The factors that went into my
> > thinking were (1) prioritizing growing platforms rather than shrinking
> > platforms (i.e. thinking long term rather than shirt term) and (2)
> earning
> > our customers' trust.  Claiming support for a platform when we can't
> > realistically deliver it would lose us trust.  I'd prefer to over deliver
> > and under promise when it come to windows 7 for this reason.
> >
> > Now on the flip side one thing I would see as valuable is to try and get
> > windows builds working with clang.  This could be beneficial in the sense
> > that it would be easy to maintain for mxnet devs and allow us to use
> modern
> > cpp on older windows machines without using vs 2013(which I consider a
> > non-starter with our codebase).
> >
> > You have peaked my curiousity though Sheng.  How many win7 users does
> MXNet
> > have relative to macos/Linux?
> >
> > On Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 8:51 AM Sheng Zha  wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Yuan,
> > >
> > > No problem. This is an issue that's worth having a clear definition, so
> > > there's nothing wrong about your proposal, and thanks for bringing
> this up.
> > >
> > > I'm more concerned about the seemingly unanimous votes on dropping
> support
> > > on a platform without seeing the supporting evidence that it's the
> right
> > > thing. It is as if everyone who participated in the vote are already
> on the
> > > same page, and somehow I'm the only one that's not. But the only
> argument I
> > > hear so far is that it's technically not straightforward to continue
> the
> > > support, which, coming from Amazon folks, certainly doesn't sound
> > > customer-obsessed.
> > >
> > > -sz
> > >
> > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 11:37 PM Lin Yuan  wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi Sheng,
> > > >
> > > > Thanks for raising this concern. The problem now is that we cannot
> even
> > > > build MXNet on Windows 7 because the build process requires MS VS
> 2015 w/
> > > > update 3 which is incompatible on Windows 7. This leaves many
> Windows 7
> > > > related open issues on github without any timely response. In my
> opinion,
> > > > having no response to users' request is probably even worse than
> letting
> > > > them know the limitation of OS support.
> > > >
> > > > To minimize the impact to current Windows 7 users, we can provide
> PyPi
> > > > package for Windows 7 in this release but defer the bug fix and
> feature
> > > > enhancement to later Windows OS version. Based on users' feedbacks,
> we
> > > can
> > > > then officially discontinue the Windows 7 support in the next MXNet
> > > > release.
> > > >
> > > > I will appreciate your comments.
> > > >
> > > > Lin
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 1:37 PM Sheng Zha 
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Are any of the votes based on any measure of user impact, if we
> indeed
> > > > > decide not to fix the current problems?
> > > > >
> > > > > -sz
> > > > >
> > > > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 1:29 PM Hagay Lupesko 
> > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > +1 (non-binding)
> > > > > > Thanks for raising this Lin!
> > > > > > Are you suggesting to do it as part of MXNet 1.3?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 9:14 AM Srivastava, Rohit Kumar <
> > > > > > srivastava@buckeyemail.osu.edu> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > +1
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On 8/29/18, 8:39 AM, "sandeep krishnamurthy" <
> > > > > > sandeep.krishn...@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > +1 Thanks for bringing this up.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 6:38 AM Marco de Abreu
> > > > > > >  wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > +1
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 1:08 PM kellen sunderland <
> > > > > > > > kellen.sunderl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > +1 (non-binding)
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018, 1:18 AM Anirudh Acharya <
> > > > > > > anirudhk...@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > +1 for discontinuing.
> > > > 

Re: Propose to discontinue supporting Apache MXNet on Windows 7

2018-08-30 Thread Sheng Zha
Hi Kellen,

Thanks for the explanation. Unfortunately, I don't have the usage data, so I 
refrained from voting. If any of the voters have such data I'd love to see it 
too.

-sz

On 2018/08/30 14:58:09, kellen sunderland  wrote: 
> I haven't spoken to anyone about the decision (as I'm currently on an
> island in the med) but to me the quick +1s are likely a result of this
> being a fairly straightforward decision.  The factors that went into my
> thinking were (1) prioritizing growing platforms rather than shrinking
> platforms (i.e. thinking long term rather than shirt term) and (2)  earning
> our customers' trust.  Claiming support for a platform when we can't
> realistically deliver it would lose us trust.  I'd prefer to over deliver
> and under promise when it come to windows 7 for this reason.
> 
> Now on the flip side one thing I would see as valuable is to try and get
> windows builds working with clang.  This could be beneficial in the sense
> that it would be easy to maintain for mxnet devs and allow us to use modern
> cpp on older windows machines without using vs 2013(which I consider a
> non-starter with our codebase).
> 
> You have peaked my curiousity though Sheng.  How many win7 users does MXNet
> have relative to macos/Linux?
> 
> On Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 8:51 AM Sheng Zha  wrote:
> 
> > Hi Yuan,
> >
> > No problem. This is an issue that's worth having a clear definition, so
> > there's nothing wrong about your proposal, and thanks for bringing this up.
> >
> > I'm more concerned about the seemingly unanimous votes on dropping support
> > on a platform without seeing the supporting evidence that it's the right
> > thing. It is as if everyone who participated in the vote are already on the
> > same page, and somehow I'm the only one that's not. But the only argument I
> > hear so far is that it's technically not straightforward to continue the
> > support, which, coming from Amazon folks, certainly doesn't sound
> > customer-obsessed.
> >
> > -sz
> >
> > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 11:37 PM Lin Yuan  wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Sheng,
> > >
> > > Thanks for raising this concern. The problem now is that we cannot even
> > > build MXNet on Windows 7 because the build process requires MS VS 2015 w/
> > > update 3 which is incompatible on Windows 7. This leaves many Windows 7
> > > related open issues on github without any timely response. In my opinion,
> > > having no response to users' request is probably even worse than letting
> > > them know the limitation of OS support.
> > >
> > > To minimize the impact to current Windows 7 users, we can provide PyPi
> > > package for Windows 7 in this release but defer the bug fix and feature
> > > enhancement to later Windows OS version. Based on users' feedbacks, we
> > can
> > > then officially discontinue the Windows 7 support in the next MXNet
> > > release.
> > >
> > > I will appreciate your comments.
> > >
> > > Lin
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 1:37 PM Sheng Zha  wrote:
> > >
> > > > Are any of the votes based on any measure of user impact, if we indeed
> > > > decide not to fix the current problems?
> > > >
> > > > -sz
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 1:29 PM Hagay Lupesko 
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > +1 (non-binding)
> > > > > Thanks for raising this Lin!
> > > > > Are you suggesting to do it as part of MXNet 1.3?
> > > > >
> > > > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 9:14 AM Srivastava, Rohit Kumar <
> > > > > srivastava@buckeyemail.osu.edu> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > +1
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 8/29/18, 8:39 AM, "sandeep krishnamurthy" <
> > > > > sandeep.krishn...@gmail.com>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > +1 Thanks for bringing this up.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 6:38 AM Marco de Abreu
> > > > > >  wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > +1
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 1:08 PM kellen sunderland <
> > > > > > > kellen.sunderl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > +1 (non-binding)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018, 1:18 AM Anirudh Acharya <
> > > > > > anirudhk...@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > +1 for discontinuing.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 4:11 PM Naveen Swamy <
> > > > > mnnav...@gmail.com
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > +1 to stop supporting Win7
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 3:54 PM Lin Yuan <
> > > > > apefor...@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Dear Community,
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Currently, our MXNet installation guide for Windows
> > > does
> > > > > not
> > > > > > work
> > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > > Windows 7. e.g. Microsoft Visual Studio 2015 is not
> > > > > > 

Re: Propose to discontinue supporting Apache MXNet on Windows 7

2018-08-30 Thread kellen sunderland
I haven't spoken to anyone about the decision (as I'm currently on an
island in the med) but to me the quick +1s are likely a result of this
being a fairly straightforward decision.  The factors that went into my
thinking were (1) prioritizing growing platforms rather than shrinking
platforms (i.e. thinking long term rather than shirt term) and (2)  earning
our customers' trust.  Claiming support for a platform when we can't
realistically deliver it would lose us trust.  I'd prefer to over deliver
and under promise when it come to windows 7 for this reason.

Now on the flip side one thing I would see as valuable is to try and get
windows builds working with clang.  This could be beneficial in the sense
that it would be easy to maintain for mxnet devs and allow us to use modern
cpp on older windows machines without using vs 2013(which I consider a
non-starter with our codebase).

You have peaked my curiousity though Sheng.  How many win7 users does MXNet
have relative to macos/Linux?

On Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 8:51 AM Sheng Zha  wrote:

> Hi Yuan,
>
> No problem. This is an issue that's worth having a clear definition, so
> there's nothing wrong about your proposal, and thanks for bringing this up.
>
> I'm more concerned about the seemingly unanimous votes on dropping support
> on a platform without seeing the supporting evidence that it's the right
> thing. It is as if everyone who participated in the vote are already on the
> same page, and somehow I'm the only one that's not. But the only argument I
> hear so far is that it's technically not straightforward to continue the
> support, which, coming from Amazon folks, certainly doesn't sound
> customer-obsessed.
>
> -sz
>
> On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 11:37 PM Lin Yuan  wrote:
>
> > Hi Sheng,
> >
> > Thanks for raising this concern. The problem now is that we cannot even
> > build MXNet on Windows 7 because the build process requires MS VS 2015 w/
> > update 3 which is incompatible on Windows 7. This leaves many Windows 7
> > related open issues on github without any timely response. In my opinion,
> > having no response to users' request is probably even worse than letting
> > them know the limitation of OS support.
> >
> > To minimize the impact to current Windows 7 users, we can provide PyPi
> > package for Windows 7 in this release but defer the bug fix and feature
> > enhancement to later Windows OS version. Based on users' feedbacks, we
> can
> > then officially discontinue the Windows 7 support in the next MXNet
> > release.
> >
> > I will appreciate your comments.
> >
> > Lin
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 1:37 PM Sheng Zha  wrote:
> >
> > > Are any of the votes based on any measure of user impact, if we indeed
> > > decide not to fix the current problems?
> > >
> > > -sz
> > >
> > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 1:29 PM Hagay Lupesko 
> wrote:
> > >
> > > > +1 (non-binding)
> > > > Thanks for raising this Lin!
> > > > Are you suggesting to do it as part of MXNet 1.3?
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 9:14 AM Srivastava, Rohit Kumar <
> > > > srivastava@buckeyemail.osu.edu> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > +1
> > > > >
> > > > > On 8/29/18, 8:39 AM, "sandeep krishnamurthy" <
> > > > sandeep.krishn...@gmail.com>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > +1 Thanks for bringing this up.
> > > > >
> > > > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 6:38 AM Marco de Abreu
> > > > >  wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > +1
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 1:08 PM kellen sunderland <
> > > > > > kellen.sunderl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > +1 (non-binding)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018, 1:18 AM Anirudh Acharya <
> > > > > anirudhk...@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > +1 for discontinuing.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 4:11 PM Naveen Swamy <
> > > > mnnav...@gmail.com
> > > > > >
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > +1 to stop supporting Win7
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 3:54 PM Lin Yuan <
> > > > apefor...@gmail.com>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Dear Community,
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Currently, our MXNet installation guide for Windows
> > does
> > > > not
> > > > > work
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > Windows 7. e.g. Microsoft Visual Studio 2015 is not
> > > > > supported on
> > > > > > > > Windows
> > > > > > > > > 7
> > > > > > > > > > <
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://visualstudio.microsoft.com/vs/support/vs2015/received-error-specified-program-requires-newer-version-windows/
> > > > > > > > > > >.
> > > > > > > > > > In addition, MSFT ended “Mainstream” support for
> > Windows
> > > 7
> > > > > in 2015
> 

Re: Propose to discontinue supporting Apache MXNet on Windows 7

2018-08-30 Thread Sheng Zha
Hi Yuan,

No problem. This is an issue that's worth having a clear definition, so
there's nothing wrong about your proposal, and thanks for bringing this up.

I'm more concerned about the seemingly unanimous votes on dropping support
on a platform without seeing the supporting evidence that it's the right
thing. It is as if everyone who participated in the vote are already on the
same page, and somehow I'm the only one that's not. But the only argument I
hear so far is that it's technically not straightforward to continue the
support, which, coming from Amazon folks, certainly doesn't sound
customer-obsessed.

-sz

On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 11:37 PM Lin Yuan  wrote:

> Hi Sheng,
>
> Thanks for raising this concern. The problem now is that we cannot even
> build MXNet on Windows 7 because the build process requires MS VS 2015 w/
> update 3 which is incompatible on Windows 7. This leaves many Windows 7
> related open issues on github without any timely response. In my opinion,
> having no response to users' request is probably even worse than letting
> them know the limitation of OS support.
>
> To minimize the impact to current Windows 7 users, we can provide PyPi
> package for Windows 7 in this release but defer the bug fix and feature
> enhancement to later Windows OS version. Based on users' feedbacks, we can
> then officially discontinue the Windows 7 support in the next MXNet
> release.
>
> I will appreciate your comments.
>
> Lin
>
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 1:37 PM Sheng Zha  wrote:
>
> > Are any of the votes based on any measure of user impact, if we indeed
> > decide not to fix the current problems?
> >
> > -sz
> >
> > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 1:29 PM Hagay Lupesko  wrote:
> >
> > > +1 (non-binding)
> > > Thanks for raising this Lin!
> > > Are you suggesting to do it as part of MXNet 1.3?
> > >
> > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 9:14 AM Srivastava, Rohit Kumar <
> > > srivastava@buckeyemail.osu.edu> wrote:
> > >
> > > > +1
> > > >
> > > > On 8/29/18, 8:39 AM, "sandeep krishnamurthy" <
> > > sandeep.krishn...@gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > +1 Thanks for bringing this up.
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 6:38 AM Marco de Abreu
> > > >  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > +1
> > > > >
> > > > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 1:08 PM kellen sunderland <
> > > > > kellen.sunderl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > +1 (non-binding)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018, 1:18 AM Anirudh Acharya <
> > > > anirudhk...@gmail.com>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > +1 for discontinuing.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 4:11 PM Naveen Swamy <
> > > mnnav...@gmail.com
> > > > >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > +1 to stop supporting Win7
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 3:54 PM Lin Yuan <
> > > apefor...@gmail.com>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Dear Community,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Currently, our MXNet installation guide for Windows
> does
> > > not
> > > > work
> > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > Windows 7. e.g. Microsoft Visual Studio 2015 is not
> > > > supported on
> > > > > > > Windows
> > > > > > > > 7
> > > > > > > > > <
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://visualstudio.microsoft.com/vs/support/vs2015/received-error-specified-program-requires-newer-version-windows/
> > > > > > > > > >.
> > > > > > > > > In addition, MSFT ended “Mainstream” support for
> Windows
> > 7
> > > > in 2015
> > > > > (
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/13853/windows-lifecycle-fact-sheet
> > > > > > > > > ).
> > > > > > > > > Therefore, it is not possible for developers to build
> > MXNet
> > > > and
> > > > > > verify
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > fix on Windows 7 platform. Given that there have been
> > > several
> > > > > issues
> > > > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > > MXNet error on Windows 7 (issue#9271
> > > > > > > > >  >,
> > > > issue
> > > > > #8921
> > > > > > > > >  >,
> > > > issue
> > > > > > #11163
> > > > > > > > > <
> https://github.com/apache/incubator-mxnet/issues/11163
> > >),
> > > > it will
> > > > > > > even
> > > > > > > > > add
> > > > > > > > > more burden on developers in the future if we were to
> > > > continue
> > > > > > > supporting
> > > > > > > > > Windows 7.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I therefore would like to propose that we discontinue
> the
> > > > support
> > > >   

Re: Propose to discontinue supporting Apache MXNet on Windows 7

2018-08-30 Thread Lin Yuan
Hi Sheng,

Thanks for raising this concern. The problem now is that we cannot even
build MXNet on Windows 7 because the build process requires MS VS 2015 w/
update 3 which is incompatible on Windows 7. This leaves many Windows 7
related open issues on github without any timely response. In my opinion,
having no response to users' request is probably even worse than letting
them know the limitation of OS support.

To minimize the impact to current Windows 7 users, we can provide PyPi
package for Windows 7 in this release but defer the bug fix and feature
enhancement to later Windows OS version. Based on users' feedbacks, we can
then officially discontinue the Windows 7 support in the next MXNet
release.

I will appreciate your comments.

Lin



On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 1:37 PM Sheng Zha  wrote:

> Are any of the votes based on any measure of user impact, if we indeed
> decide not to fix the current problems?
>
> -sz
>
> On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 1:29 PM Hagay Lupesko  wrote:
>
> > +1 (non-binding)
> > Thanks for raising this Lin!
> > Are you suggesting to do it as part of MXNet 1.3?
> >
> > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 9:14 AM Srivastava, Rohit Kumar <
> > srivastava@buckeyemail.osu.edu> wrote:
> >
> > > +1
> > >
> > > On 8/29/18, 8:39 AM, "sandeep krishnamurthy" <
> > sandeep.krishn...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > +1 Thanks for bringing this up.
> > >
> > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 6:38 AM Marco de Abreu
> > >  wrote:
> > >
> > > > +1
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 1:08 PM kellen sunderland <
> > > > kellen.sunderl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > +1 (non-binding)
> > > > >
> > > > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018, 1:18 AM Anirudh Acharya <
> > > anirudhk...@gmail.com>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > +1 for discontinuing.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 4:11 PM Naveen Swamy <
> > mnnav...@gmail.com
> > > >
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > +1 to stop supporting Win7
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 3:54 PM Lin Yuan <
> > apefor...@gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Dear Community,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Currently, our MXNet installation guide for Windows does
> > not
> > > work
> > > > for
> > > > > > > > Windows 7. e.g. Microsoft Visual Studio 2015 is not
> > > supported on
> > > > > > Windows
> > > > > > > 7
> > > > > > > > <
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://visualstudio.microsoft.com/vs/support/vs2015/received-error-specified-program-requires-newer-version-windows/
> > > > > > > > >.
> > > > > > > > In addition, MSFT ended “Mainstream” support for Windows
> 7
> > > in 2015
> > > > (
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/13853/windows-lifecycle-fact-sheet
> > > > > > > > ).
> > > > > > > > Therefore, it is not possible for developers to build
> MXNet
> > > and
> > > > > verify
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > fix on Windows 7 platform. Given that there have been
> > several
> > > > issues
> > > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > MXNet error on Windows 7 (issue#9271
> > > > > > > > ,
> > > issue
> > > > #8921
> > > > > > > > ,
> > > issue
> > > > > #11163
> > > > > > > >  >),
> > > it will
> > > > > > even
> > > > > > > > add
> > > > > > > > more burden on developers in the future if we were to
> > > continue
> > > > > > supporting
> > > > > > > > Windows 7.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I therefore would like to propose that we discontinue the
> > > support
> > > > of
> > > > > > > MXNet
> > > > > > > > on Windows 7 in the next release.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Specifically, this means the following required actions:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > 1) state the discontinuation of Windows 7 support in the
> > > release
> > > > note
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > 2) update the MXNet webpage if Windows version is
> > mentioned.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > 3) update the open Github issues related to Windows 7
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Please share your thoughts about this proposal and/or
> > > suggest if
> > > > > there
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > any other missing action item from the above.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Best Regards,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Lin
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > 

RE: Propose to discontinue supporting Apache MXNet on Windows 7

2018-08-30 Thread Lv, Tao A
If we really want to discontinue the support on Win7, maybe it should happen in 
a major release like 2.0.0.


-Original Message-
From: dev-return-4003-tao.a.lv=intel@mxnet.incubator.apache.org 
[mailto:dev-return-4003-tao.a.lv=intel@mxnet.incubator.apache.org] 
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2018 2:21 PM
To: dev@mxnet.incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: Propose to discontinue supporting Apache MXNet on Windows 7

Hi Hagay,

To minimize the impact to existing customers, I suggest we support MXNe 1.3 
installation on Windows but defer all the bug fix to Windows 10 version and ask 
users to migrate. Then we officially discontinue the support on Windows
7 in the 1.4 release.

Thanks,

Lin

On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 1:29 PM Hagay Lupesko  wrote:

> +1 (non-binding)
> Thanks for raising this Lin!
> Are you suggesting to do it as part of MXNet 1.3?
>
> On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 9:14 AM Srivastava, Rohit Kumar < 
> srivastava@buckeyemail.osu.edu> wrote:
>
> > +1
> >
> > On 8/29/18, 8:39 AM, "sandeep krishnamurthy" <
> sandeep.krishn...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > +1 Thanks for bringing this up.
> >
> > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 6:38 AM Marco de Abreu
> >  wrote:
> >
> > > +1
> > >
> > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 1:08 PM kellen sunderland <
> > > kellen.sunderl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > +1 (non-binding)
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018, 1:18 AM Anirudh Acharya < 
> > anirudhk...@gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > +1 for discontinuing.
> > > > >
> > > > > On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 4:11 PM Naveen Swamy <
> mnnav...@gmail.com
> > >
> > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > +1 to stop supporting Win7
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 3:54 PM Lin Yuan <
> apefor...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Dear Community,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Currently, our MXNet installation guide for Windows 
> > does
> not
> > work
> > > for
> > > > > > > Windows 7. e.g. Microsoft Visual Studio 2015 is not 
> > supported on
> > > > > Windows
> > > > > > 7
> > > > > > > <
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://visualstudio.microsoft.com/vs/support/vs2015/received-error-sp
> ecified-program-requires-newer-version-windows/
> > > > > > > >.
> > > > > > > In addition, MSFT ended “Mainstream” support for 
> > Windows 7 in 2015
> > > (
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/13853/windows-lifecycle-fact-
> sheet
> > > > > > > ).
> > > > > > > Therefore, it is not possible for developers to build 
> > MXNet and
> > > > verify
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > fix on Windows 7 platform. Given that there have been
> several
> > > issues
> > > > > > about
> > > > > > > MXNet error on Windows 7 (issue#9271
> > > > > > > 
> > <https://github.com/apache/incubator-mxnet/issues/9271>,
> > issue
> > > #8921
> > > > > > > 
> > <https://github.com/apache/incubator-mxnet/issues/8921>,
> > issue
> > > > #11163
> > > > > > > 
> > <https://github.com/apache/incubator-mxnet/issues/11163>),
> > it will
> > > > > even
> > > > > > > add
> > > > > > > more burden on developers in the future if we were to 
> > continue
> > > > > supporting
> > > > > > > Windows 7.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I therefore would like to propose that we discontinue 
> > the support
> > > of
> > > > > > MXNet
> > > > > > > on Windows 7 in the next release.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Specifically, this means the following required actions:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 1) state the discontinuation of Windows 7 support in 
> > the release
> > > note
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 2) update the MXNet webpage if Windows version is
> mentioned.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 3) update the open Github issues related to Windows 7
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Please share your thoughts about this proposal and/or 
> > suggest if
> > > > there
> > > > > is
> > > > > > > any other missing action item from the above.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Best Regards,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Lin
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Sandeep Krishnamurthy
> >
> >
> >
>


Re: Propose to discontinue supporting Apache MXNet on Windows 7

2018-08-30 Thread Lin Yuan
Hi Hagay,

To minimize the impact to existing customers, I suggest we support MXNe 1.3
installation on Windows but defer all the bug fix to Windows 10 version and
ask users to migrate. Then we officially discontinue the support on Windows
7 in the 1.4 release.

Thanks,

Lin

On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 1:29 PM Hagay Lupesko  wrote:

> +1 (non-binding)
> Thanks for raising this Lin!
> Are you suggesting to do it as part of MXNet 1.3?
>
> On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 9:14 AM Srivastava, Rohit Kumar <
> srivastava@buckeyemail.osu.edu> wrote:
>
> > +1
> >
> > On 8/29/18, 8:39 AM, "sandeep krishnamurthy" <
> sandeep.krishn...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > +1 Thanks for bringing this up.
> >
> > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 6:38 AM Marco de Abreu
> >  wrote:
> >
> > > +1
> > >
> > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 1:08 PM kellen sunderland <
> > > kellen.sunderl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > +1 (non-binding)
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018, 1:18 AM Anirudh Acharya <
> > anirudhk...@gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > +1 for discontinuing.
> > > > >
> > > > > On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 4:11 PM Naveen Swamy <
> mnnav...@gmail.com
> > >
> > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > +1 to stop supporting Win7
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 3:54 PM Lin Yuan <
> apefor...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Dear Community,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Currently, our MXNet installation guide for Windows does
> not
> > work
> > > for
> > > > > > > Windows 7. e.g. Microsoft Visual Studio 2015 is not
> > supported on
> > > > > Windows
> > > > > > 7
> > > > > > > <
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://visualstudio.microsoft.com/vs/support/vs2015/received-error-specified-program-requires-newer-version-windows/
> > > > > > > >.
> > > > > > > In addition, MSFT ended “Mainstream” support for Windows 7
> > in 2015
> > > (
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/13853/windows-lifecycle-fact-sheet
> > > > > > > ).
> > > > > > > Therefore, it is not possible for developers to build MXNet
> > and
> > > > verify
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > fix on Windows 7 platform. Given that there have been
> several
> > > issues
> > > > > > about
> > > > > > > MXNet error on Windows 7 (issue#9271
> > > > > > > ,
> > issue
> > > #8921
> > > > > > > ,
> > issue
> > > > #11163
> > > > > > > ),
> > it will
> > > > > even
> > > > > > > add
> > > > > > > more burden on developers in the future if we were to
> > continue
> > > > > supporting
> > > > > > > Windows 7.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I therefore would like to propose that we discontinue the
> > support
> > > of
> > > > > > MXNet
> > > > > > > on Windows 7 in the next release.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Specifically, this means the following required actions:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 1) state the discontinuation of Windows 7 support in the
> > release
> > > note
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 2) update the MXNet webpage if Windows version is
> mentioned.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 3) update the open Github issues related to Windows 7
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Please share your thoughts about this proposal and/or
> > suggest if
> > > > there
> > > > > is
> > > > > > > any other missing action item from the above.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Best Regards,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Lin
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Sandeep Krishnamurthy
> >
> >
> >
>


Re: Propose to discontinue supporting Apache MXNet on Windows 7

2018-08-29 Thread Sheng Zha
Are any of the votes based on any measure of user impact, if we indeed
decide not to fix the current problems?

-sz

On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 1:29 PM Hagay Lupesko  wrote:

> +1 (non-binding)
> Thanks for raising this Lin!
> Are you suggesting to do it as part of MXNet 1.3?
>
> On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 9:14 AM Srivastava, Rohit Kumar <
> srivastava@buckeyemail.osu.edu> wrote:
>
> > +1
> >
> > On 8/29/18, 8:39 AM, "sandeep krishnamurthy" <
> sandeep.krishn...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > +1 Thanks for bringing this up.
> >
> > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 6:38 AM Marco de Abreu
> >  wrote:
> >
> > > +1
> > >
> > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 1:08 PM kellen sunderland <
> > > kellen.sunderl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > +1 (non-binding)
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018, 1:18 AM Anirudh Acharya <
> > anirudhk...@gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > +1 for discontinuing.
> > > > >
> > > > > On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 4:11 PM Naveen Swamy <
> mnnav...@gmail.com
> > >
> > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > +1 to stop supporting Win7
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 3:54 PM Lin Yuan <
> apefor...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Dear Community,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Currently, our MXNet installation guide for Windows does
> not
> > work
> > > for
> > > > > > > Windows 7. e.g. Microsoft Visual Studio 2015 is not
> > supported on
> > > > > Windows
> > > > > > 7
> > > > > > > <
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://visualstudio.microsoft.com/vs/support/vs2015/received-error-specified-program-requires-newer-version-windows/
> > > > > > > >.
> > > > > > > In addition, MSFT ended “Mainstream” support for Windows 7
> > in 2015
> > > (
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/13853/windows-lifecycle-fact-sheet
> > > > > > > ).
> > > > > > > Therefore, it is not possible for developers to build MXNet
> > and
> > > > verify
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > fix on Windows 7 platform. Given that there have been
> several
> > > issues
> > > > > > about
> > > > > > > MXNet error on Windows 7 (issue#9271
> > > > > > > ,
> > issue
> > > #8921
> > > > > > > ,
> > issue
> > > > #11163
> > > > > > > ),
> > it will
> > > > > even
> > > > > > > add
> > > > > > > more burden on developers in the future if we were to
> > continue
> > > > > supporting
> > > > > > > Windows 7.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I therefore would like to propose that we discontinue the
> > support
> > > of
> > > > > > MXNet
> > > > > > > on Windows 7 in the next release.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Specifically, this means the following required actions:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 1) state the discontinuation of Windows 7 support in the
> > release
> > > note
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 2) update the MXNet webpage if Windows version is
> mentioned.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 3) update the open Github issues related to Windows 7
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Please share your thoughts about this proposal and/or
> > suggest if
> > > > there
> > > > > is
> > > > > > > any other missing action item from the above.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Best Regards,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Lin
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Sandeep Krishnamurthy
> >
> >
> >
>


Re: Propose to discontinue supporting Apache MXNet on Windows 7

2018-08-29 Thread Hagay Lupesko
+1 (non-binding)
Thanks for raising this Lin!
Are you suggesting to do it as part of MXNet 1.3?

On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 9:14 AM Srivastava, Rohit Kumar <
srivastava@buckeyemail.osu.edu> wrote:

> +1
>
> On 8/29/18, 8:39 AM, "sandeep krishnamurthy" 
> wrote:
>
> +1 Thanks for bringing this up.
>
> On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 6:38 AM Marco de Abreu
>  wrote:
>
> > +1
> >
> > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 1:08 PM kellen sunderland <
> > kellen.sunderl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > +1 (non-binding)
> > >
> > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018, 1:18 AM Anirudh Acharya <
> anirudhk...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > +1 for discontinuing.
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 4:11 PM Naveen Swamy  >
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > +1 to stop supporting Win7
> > > > >
> > > > > On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 3:54 PM Lin Yuan 
> > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Dear Community,
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Currently, our MXNet installation guide for Windows does not
> work
> > for
> > > > > > Windows 7. e.g. Microsoft Visual Studio 2015 is not
> supported on
> > > > Windows
> > > > > 7
> > > > > > <
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://visualstudio.microsoft.com/vs/support/vs2015/received-error-specified-program-requires-newer-version-windows/
> > > > > > >.
> > > > > > In addition, MSFT ended “Mainstream” support for Windows 7
> in 2015
> > (
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/13853/windows-lifecycle-fact-sheet
> > > > > > ).
> > > > > > Therefore, it is not possible for developers to build MXNet
> and
> > > verify
> > > > > the
> > > > > > fix on Windows 7 platform. Given that there have been several
> > issues
> > > > > about
> > > > > > MXNet error on Windows 7 (issue#9271
> > > > > > ,
> issue
> > #8921
> > > > > > ,
> issue
> > > #11163
> > > > > > ),
> it will
> > > > even
> > > > > > add
> > > > > > more burden on developers in the future if we were to
> continue
> > > > supporting
> > > > > > Windows 7.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I therefore would like to propose that we discontinue the
> support
> > of
> > > > > MXNet
> > > > > > on Windows 7 in the next release.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Specifically, this means the following required actions:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 1) state the discontinuation of Windows 7 support in the
> release
> > note
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 2) update the MXNet webpage if Windows version is mentioned.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 3) update the open Github issues related to Windows 7
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Please share your thoughts about this proposal and/or
> suggest if
> > > there
> > > > is
> > > > > > any other missing action item from the above.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Best Regards,
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Lin
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
>
> --
> Sandeep Krishnamurthy
>
>
>


Re: Propose to discontinue supporting Apache MXNet on Windows 7

2018-08-29 Thread Srivastava, Rohit Kumar
+1

On 8/29/18, 8:39 AM, "sandeep krishnamurthy"  
wrote:

+1 Thanks for bringing this up.

On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 6:38 AM Marco de Abreu
 wrote:

> +1
>
> On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 1:08 PM kellen sunderland <
> kellen.sunderl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > +1 (non-binding)
> >
> > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018, 1:18 AM Anirudh Acharya 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > +1 for discontinuing.
> > >
> > > On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 4:11 PM Naveen Swamy 
> wrote:
> > >
> > > > +1 to stop supporting Win7
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 3:54 PM Lin Yuan 
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Dear Community,
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Currently, our MXNet installation guide for Windows does not work
> for
> > > > > Windows 7. e.g. Microsoft Visual Studio 2015 is not supported on
> > > Windows
> > > > 7
> > > > > <
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> 
https://visualstudio.microsoft.com/vs/support/vs2015/received-error-specified-program-requires-newer-version-windows/
> > > > > >.
> > > > > In addition, MSFT ended “Mainstream” support for Windows 7 in 2015
> (
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> 
https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/13853/windows-lifecycle-fact-sheet
> > > > > ).
> > > > > Therefore, it is not possible for developers to build MXNet and
> > verify
> > > > the
> > > > > fix on Windows 7 platform. Given that there have been several
> issues
> > > > about
> > > > > MXNet error on Windows 7 (issue#9271
> > > > > , issue
> #8921
> > > > > , issue
> > #11163
> > > > > ), it will
> > > even
> > > > > add
> > > > > more burden on developers in the future if we were to continue
> > > supporting
> > > > > Windows 7.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I therefore would like to propose that we discontinue the support
> of
> > > > MXNet
> > > > > on Windows 7 in the next release.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Specifically, this means the following required actions:
> > > > >
> > > > > 1) state the discontinuation of Windows 7 support in the release
> note
> > > > >
> > > > > 2) update the MXNet webpage if Windows version is mentioned.
> > > > >
> > > > > 3) update the open Github issues related to Windows 7
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Please share your thoughts about this proposal and/or suggest if
> > there
> > > is
> > > > > any other missing action item from the above.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Best Regards,
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Lin
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>


-- 
Sandeep Krishnamurthy




Re: Propose to discontinue supporting Apache MXNet on Windows 7

2018-08-29 Thread sandeep krishnamurthy
+1 Thanks for bringing this up.

On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 6:38 AM Marco de Abreu
 wrote:

> +1
>
> On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 1:08 PM kellen sunderland <
> kellen.sunderl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > +1 (non-binding)
> >
> > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018, 1:18 AM Anirudh Acharya 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > +1 for discontinuing.
> > >
> > > On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 4:11 PM Naveen Swamy 
> wrote:
> > >
> > > > +1 to stop supporting Win7
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 3:54 PM Lin Yuan 
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Dear Community,
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Currently, our MXNet installation guide for Windows does not work
> for
> > > > > Windows 7. e.g. Microsoft Visual Studio 2015 is not supported on
> > > Windows
> > > > 7
> > > > > <
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://visualstudio.microsoft.com/vs/support/vs2015/received-error-specified-program-requires-newer-version-windows/
> > > > > >.
> > > > > In addition, MSFT ended “Mainstream” support for Windows 7 in 2015
> (
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/13853/windows-lifecycle-fact-sheet
> > > > > ).
> > > > > Therefore, it is not possible for developers to build MXNet and
> > verify
> > > > the
> > > > > fix on Windows 7 platform. Given that there have been several
> issues
> > > > about
> > > > > MXNet error on Windows 7 (issue#9271
> > > > > , issue
> #8921
> > > > > , issue
> > #11163
> > > > > ), it will
> > > even
> > > > > add
> > > > > more burden on developers in the future if we were to continue
> > > supporting
> > > > > Windows 7.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I therefore would like to propose that we discontinue the support
> of
> > > > MXNet
> > > > > on Windows 7 in the next release.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Specifically, this means the following required actions:
> > > > >
> > > > > 1) state the discontinuation of Windows 7 support in the release
> note
> > > > >
> > > > > 2) update the MXNet webpage if Windows version is mentioned.
> > > > >
> > > > > 3) update the open Github issues related to Windows 7
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Please share your thoughts about this proposal and/or suggest if
> > there
> > > is
> > > > > any other missing action item from the above.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Best Regards,
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Lin
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>


-- 
Sandeep Krishnamurthy


Re: Propose to discontinue supporting Apache MXNet on Windows 7

2018-08-29 Thread Marco de Abreu
+1

On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 1:08 PM kellen sunderland <
kellen.sunderl...@gmail.com> wrote:

> +1 (non-binding)
>
> On Wed, Aug 29, 2018, 1:18 AM Anirudh Acharya 
> wrote:
>
> > +1 for discontinuing.
> >
> > On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 4:11 PM Naveen Swamy  wrote:
> >
> > > +1 to stop supporting Win7
> > >
> > > On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 3:54 PM Lin Yuan  wrote:
> > >
> > > > Dear Community,
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Currently, our MXNet installation guide for Windows does not work for
> > > > Windows 7. e.g. Microsoft Visual Studio 2015 is not supported on
> > Windows
> > > 7
> > > > <
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://visualstudio.microsoft.com/vs/support/vs2015/received-error-specified-program-requires-newer-version-windows/
> > > > >.
> > > > In addition, MSFT ended “Mainstream” support for Windows 7 in 2015 (
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/13853/windows-lifecycle-fact-sheet
> > > > ).
> > > > Therefore, it is not possible for developers to build MXNet and
> verify
> > > the
> > > > fix on Windows 7 platform. Given that there have been several issues
> > > about
> > > > MXNet error on Windows 7 (issue#9271
> > > > , issue #8921
> > > > , issue
> #11163
> > > > ), it will
> > even
> > > > add
> > > > more burden on developers in the future if we were to continue
> > supporting
> > > > Windows 7.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I therefore would like to propose that we discontinue the support of
> > > MXNet
> > > > on Windows 7 in the next release.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Specifically, this means the following required actions:
> > > >
> > > > 1) state the discontinuation of Windows 7 support in the release note
> > > >
> > > > 2) update the MXNet webpage if Windows version is mentioned.
> > > >
> > > > 3) update the open Github issues related to Windows 7
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Please share your thoughts about this proposal and/or suggest if
> there
> > is
> > > > any other missing action item from the above.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Best Regards,
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Lin
> > > >
> > >
> >
>


Re: Propose to discontinue supporting Apache MXNet on Windows 7

2018-08-29 Thread kellen sunderland
+1 (non-binding)

On Wed, Aug 29, 2018, 1:18 AM Anirudh Acharya  wrote:

> +1 for discontinuing.
>
> On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 4:11 PM Naveen Swamy  wrote:
>
> > +1 to stop supporting Win7
> >
> > On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 3:54 PM Lin Yuan  wrote:
> >
> > > Dear Community,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Currently, our MXNet installation guide for Windows does not work for
> > > Windows 7. e.g. Microsoft Visual Studio 2015 is not supported on
> Windows
> > 7
> > > <
> > >
> >
> https://visualstudio.microsoft.com/vs/support/vs2015/received-error-specified-program-requires-newer-version-windows/
> > > >.
> > > In addition, MSFT ended “Mainstream” support for Windows 7 in 2015 (
> > >
> >
> https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/13853/windows-lifecycle-fact-sheet
> > > ).
> > > Therefore, it is not possible for developers to build MXNet and verify
> > the
> > > fix on Windows 7 platform. Given that there have been several issues
> > about
> > > MXNet error on Windows 7 (issue#9271
> > > , issue #8921
> > > , issue #11163
> > > ), it will
> even
> > > add
> > > more burden on developers in the future if we were to continue
> supporting
> > > Windows 7.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I therefore would like to propose that we discontinue the support of
> > MXNet
> > > on Windows 7 in the next release.
> > >
> > >
> > > Specifically, this means the following required actions:
> > >
> > > 1) state the discontinuation of Windows 7 support in the release note
> > >
> > > 2) update the MXNet webpage if Windows version is mentioned.
> > >
> > > 3) update the open Github issues related to Windows 7
> > >
> > >
> > > Please share your thoughts about this proposal and/or suggest if there
> is
> > > any other missing action item from the above.
> > >
> > >
> > > Best Regards,
> > >
> > >
> > > Lin
> > >
> >
>


Re: Propose to discontinue supporting Apache MXNet on Windows 7

2018-08-28 Thread Anirudh Acharya
+1 for discontinuing.

On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 4:11 PM Naveen Swamy  wrote:

> +1 to stop supporting Win7
>
> On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 3:54 PM Lin Yuan  wrote:
>
> > Dear Community,
> >
> >
> >
> > Currently, our MXNet installation guide for Windows does not work for
> > Windows 7. e.g. Microsoft Visual Studio 2015 is not supported on Windows
> 7
> > <
> >
> https://visualstudio.microsoft.com/vs/support/vs2015/received-error-specified-program-requires-newer-version-windows/
> > >.
> > In addition, MSFT ended “Mainstream” support for Windows 7 in 2015 (
> >
> https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/13853/windows-lifecycle-fact-sheet
> > ).
> > Therefore, it is not possible for developers to build MXNet and verify
> the
> > fix on Windows 7 platform. Given that there have been several issues
> about
> > MXNet error on Windows 7 (issue#9271
> > , issue #8921
> > , issue #11163
> > ), it will even
> > add
> > more burden on developers in the future if we were to continue supporting
> > Windows 7.
> >
> >
> >
> > I therefore would like to propose that we discontinue the support of
> MXNet
> > on Windows 7 in the next release.
> >
> >
> > Specifically, this means the following required actions:
> >
> > 1) state the discontinuation of Windows 7 support in the release note
> >
> > 2) update the MXNet webpage if Windows version is mentioned.
> >
> > 3) update the open Github issues related to Windows 7
> >
> >
> > Please share your thoughts about this proposal and/or suggest if there is
> > any other missing action item from the above.
> >
> >
> > Best Regards,
> >
> >
> > Lin
> >
>


Re: Propose to discontinue supporting Apache MXNet on Windows 7

2018-08-28 Thread Naveen Swamy
+1 to stop supporting Win7

On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 3:54 PM Lin Yuan  wrote:

> Dear Community,
>
>
>
> Currently, our MXNet installation guide for Windows does not work for
> Windows 7. e.g. Microsoft Visual Studio 2015 is not supported on Windows 7
> <
> https://visualstudio.microsoft.com/vs/support/vs2015/received-error-specified-program-requires-newer-version-windows/
> >.
> In addition, MSFT ended “Mainstream” support for Windows 7 in 2015 (
> https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/13853/windows-lifecycle-fact-sheet
> ).
> Therefore, it is not possible for developers to build MXNet and verify the
> fix on Windows 7 platform. Given that there have been several issues about
> MXNet error on Windows 7 (issue#9271
> , issue #8921
> , issue #11163
> ), it will even
> add
> more burden on developers in the future if we were to continue supporting
> Windows 7.
>
>
>
> I therefore would like to propose that we discontinue the support of MXNet
> on Windows 7 in the next release.
>
>
> Specifically, this means the following required actions:
>
> 1) state the discontinuation of Windows 7 support in the release note
>
> 2) update the MXNet webpage if Windows version is mentioned.
>
> 3) update the open Github issues related to Windows 7
>
>
> Please share your thoughts about this proposal and/or suggest if there is
> any other missing action item from the above.
>
>
> Best Regards,
>
>
> Lin
>