[native-lang] Re: [project leads] Re: [native-lang] Change in Lead
Hello everyone, I just wanted to clarify things (again). I am going to leave the project / we, the founders of the Document Foundation, are going to leave the project at some given time and have every intention to keep things clear and clean. But I/we are not going to be thrown out by people who just feel they can get away with zero formality, and zero explanation, and by ignoring our very own guidelines. Is that clear to everyone? I'm not insane, I just want, just like the people from Oracle, a bit of respect. Thanks, Charles. Le Tue, 19 Oct 2010 12:41:03 +0700, Javier Sola jav...@khmeros.info a écrit : Speaking as a simple language team leader and community member, the situation seems to be getting complicated. This is not a game for us. We - in Cambodia - have convinced the government to change to OOo, and we cannot run any risks of not having a good product tomorrow. We still do not know what will happen with LO, and we do not know what will happen with OOo. Our only choice is to go with both. We are happy to send our translations to both OOo a LO. We are not MOVING to LO, we are ALSO supporting a second initiative, and plan to stay as part of both communities. To me it is a bit confusing -specially now at the beginning - that the person who has asked me to join the LO project is also the lead of the OOo NLC. While a good part of the communities will be the same, it seems logical to me that the leaders should be different from each other, as they will (naturally) be putting their energy only into one of the projects. I will be happy to work with Charles in LO, because we both want it to succeed, and I will be happy working with Louis in OOo, because we both want it to succeed. All the accusation and name calling that are coming out are hurting both projects, as they tend to reflect negatively more on the perceptions that others have of the writer than of the target. The sooner it stops and the projects work independently, the easier that it will be to collaborate in the future. Cheers, Javier Charles-H. Schulz wrote: Louis, Le Thu, 14 Oct 2010 15:32:28 -0400, Louis Suárez-Potts louis.suarez-po...@oracle.com a écrit : All, I have asked that Charles Schulz recuse himself from his role as lead of the NLC category because of the confusion his new role outside of OpenOffice.org would produce in the minds of contributors and users. I have not received an answer, so I must presume one, that he would act with good grace and recognize the impossibility of his dual roles. I am afraid you are presuming the wrong way. I am sorry not to have given you an answer earlier publicly, but I am not going away. Your takeover of my position is simply not right, does not match any of our guidelines and implies a lot of nebulous things: confusion with my new role? Please define why my new role would confuse the OpenOffice.org community. I think my new role is quite clear; the fact that I will eventually leave, on my own accord and terms should also be clear. Louis, I am not employed by Oracle: you cannot fire me nor anyone like you're trying to do. This is extravagant and outlines a deep misunderstanding of community management. As lead I will continue to do what I normally do as the co-lead of the NLC—the admin, policy, outreach—plus the engagement of new members interested in setting up projects in their native language. Only, I'll do this now as Lead of the category. (There is no real apparatus for formal vote here….) There might not be any, but I'd be interested to know what other think about both the legitimity of your move, let alone of its legality. And there is a fair amount that does need to be done, as OOo is gaining enormous momentum around the world and as you, the NLC projects, are elemental to that! Sorry Louis, no pun intended, but... who are you talking about? This is becoming pathetic. Charles-H. Schulz. best, Louis - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@native-lang.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@native-lang.openoffice.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: project_leads-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: project_leads-h...@openoffice.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: project_leads-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: project_leads-h...@openoffice.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@native-lang.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@native-lang.openoffice.org
[native-lang] Re: [project leads] Re: [native-lang] Change in Lead
Charles-H. Schulz schreef: Hello everyone, I just wanted to clarify things (again). I am going to leave the project / we, the founders of the Document Foundation, are going to leave the project at some given time and have every intention to keep things clear and clean. But I/we are not going to be thrown out by people who just feel they can get away with zero formality, and zero explanation, and by ignoring our very own guidelines. Didn't Louis already explain that that is not what's happening? Is that clear to everyone? I'm not insane, I just want, just like the people from Oracle, a bit of respect. The way I see it, you're actually getting that, while not exactly trying hard to earn it. Please try to be rational and keep following that intention to keep things clear and clean. -- Vriendelijke groet, Simon Brouwer -*- nl.openoffice.org -*- http://www.opentaal.org -*- - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@native-lang.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@native-lang.openoffice.org
[native-lang] Reducing translation load (was Re: [native-lang] Change in Lead)
On Mon, 2010-10-18 at 12:09 +0200, Andre Schnabel wrote: Hi, Original-Nachricht Von: Mike Dupont jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com An: dev@native-lang.openoffice.org Also, I would like to say that it has been very hard to find translator for ooo, because it is so huge. I would like to suggest that we merge strings with abiword that has been translated already into albanian. Well - if you can ask all the translators of AbiWord to sign the SCA (if policy did not change, then it is still required for OOo localization). I'm afraid you will also sadly find that the overlap will yield at best about 15-20% 100% translated. You would still want to review those. A better approach, which we at Translate.org.za have done in the past is to build a debug build using podebug. This marks all the strings and you can then work out which components are needed for translating Write and focus on those. I haven't done this in a while so I'm not 100% sure that those files are, but it is relatively easy to do. -- Dwayne Bailey Associate Research Director+27 12 460 1095 (w) Translate.org.za ANLoc+27 83 443 7114 (c) Recent blog posts: * Localizing Mac OS X strings files using open source PO editors http://www.translate.org.za/blogs/dwayne/en/content/localizing-mac-os-x-strings-files-using-open-source-po-editors * What's new in Virtaal 0.6.1 * Localisation: How we guess the target translation language in Virtaal Firefox web browser in Afrikaans - http://af.www.mozilla.com/af/ African Network for Localisation (ANLoc) - http://africanlocalisation.net/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@native-lang.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@native-lang.openoffice.org
Re: [native-lang] Change in Lead
On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 12:09 PM, Andre Schnabel andre.schna...@gmx.net wrote: Hi, Original-Nachricht Von: Mike Dupont jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com An: dev@native-lang.openoffice.org Also, I would like to say that it has been very hard to find translator for ooo, because it is so huge. I would like to suggest that we merge strings with abiword that has been translated already into albanian. Well - if you can ask all the translators of AbiWord to sign the SCA (if policy did not change, then it is still required for OOo localization). The one main translator, besnik bleta, I am sure he could be conviced to do that. thanks, mike regards, André -- GMX DSL Doppel-Flat ab 19,99 euro;/mtl.! Jetzt auch mit gratis Notebook-Flat! http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/dsl - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@native-lang.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@native-lang.openoffice.org -- James Michael DuPont Member of Free Libre Open Source Software Kosova and Albania flossk.org flossal.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@native-lang.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@native-lang.openoffice.org
Re: [native-lang] Re: [project leads] Re: [native-lang] Change in Lead
Le Tue, 19 Oct 2010 09:45:30 +0200, Simon Brouwer simon.o...@xs4all.nl a écrit : Charles-H. Schulz schreef: Hello everyone, I just wanted to clarify things (again). I am going to leave the project / we, the founders of the Document Foundation, are going to leave the project at some given time and have every intention to keep things clear and clean. But I/we are not going to be thrown out by people who just feel they can get away with zero formality, and zero explanation, and by ignoring our very own guidelines. Didn't Louis already explain that that is not what's happening? After we complained heavily, yes. And I don't find his explanation to be satisfactory. For other people (the now former treasurers) things are quite clear and they were asked to resign. Is that clear to everyone? I'm not insane, I just want, just like the people from Oracle, a bit of respect. The way I see it, you're actually getting that, while not exactly trying hard to earn it. Please try to be rational and keep following that intention to keep things clear and clean. Please define how I'm not being rational. In the meantime, and given the fact that we're going nowhere and that the tone is going up, I would like to request that the entire Community Council, given the quite large number of people including every member of the CC who's not working for Oracle who's moving/migrating/staying here but contributing to LibO and moving away/leaving OOo, should resign and that general elections should be conducted (Hint: I won't run this time, for people who still have their doubts). It would show at least some sensitivity to the fact that the OOo project has failed in at least some regard. Best, Charles. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@native-lang.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@native-lang.openoffice.org
Re: [native-lang] Change in Lead
Hello Louis, Le Mon, 18 Oct 2010 09:50:57 -0400, Louis Suárez-Potts louis.suarez-po...@oracle.com a écrit : Hi Charles, et al., On 2010-10-18, at 05:37 , Charles-H. Schulz wrote: Louis, Le Thu, 14 Oct 2010 15:32:28 -0400, Louis Suárez-Potts louis.suarez-po...@oracle.com a écrit : All, I have asked that Charles Schulz recuse himself from his role as lead of the NLC category because of the confusion his new role outside of OpenOffice.org would produce in the minds of contributors and users. I have not received an answer, so I must presume one, that he would act with good grace and recognize the impossibility of his dual roles. I am afraid you are presuming the wrong way. I'm sorry to read that. I am sorry not to have given you an answer earlier publicly, but I am not going away. ? I didn't ask you to. I asked you to recuse yourself from lead—that is to suspend, temporarily, the duties and title associated with your office—because of the evident conflict of interest your concurrent role as NLC lead and TDF founder presents. I did not, and have not, removed your privileges as lead. Check if you are uncertain. But I do feel, even more, that your current dual roles seriously compromises the legitimacy by which you can effect your OOo role. While I do not necessarily agree on the conflict of interest, I do also believe that my role will need to be clarified: understand by this, I will eventually leave my role as lead of the NLC. Your takeover of my position is simply not right, does Hm. not match any of our guidelines and implies a lot of nebulous things: confusion with my new role? Please define why my new role would confuse the OpenOffice.org community. I think my new role is quite clear; the fact that I will eventually leave, on my own accord and terms should also be clear. I think I've clarified the source of confusion, the effects, too, enough. Your post to the d...@nlc list asking (urging?) members to make further contributions to TDF and LO clearly violated the implicit tenets of our project, and demonstrated a clear conflict of interest. In this case, there are quite several other cases of conflicts of interests not releated to LibreOffice. It's as if a big competitor visited our project, got on our lists, and told everyone to go to MuddleSoft instead of OOo. Wouldn't think it right, would you? It wouldn't, because it would be a competitor. Right now I would not call each other that. Louis, I am not employed by Oracle: you cannot fire me nor anyone like you're trying to do. This is extravagant and outlines a deep misunderstanding of community management. I have not fired you, nor anyone, nor do I have that right, thankfully. The CC can, of course, remove people. But what I did, and did only, was to assume your duties presuming a positive answer to my question. As you've answered in the negative, and you are still lead, this does complicate things a little, and it is something of course, that would and will be, I have no doubt, brought up in the CC meeting next. I have no doubts on this. Charles, no one here in OOo is acting arbitrarily or without accountability. We are interested in demonstrating to the community that what we do is in their behalf, and that as a community, we act in a way that is neither precipitous or irrational, but which has the OOo project community's interests at heart—and that community includes those interested in using OOo in all environments. Put another way: Trust is crucial here. And trust, we have been taught by Foss, is the keystone upon which community is built. Trust is built up by predictable behaviour, by verifiable doings: by intentions manifest in actions whose is evident and not the arbitrary writing of a child who might declare himself one day to be superman just because he wants to. If trust is crucial, and indeed it is, then The Document Foundation is the visible sign the community has lost confidence in the will and ability of Oracle to help us propulse this project in the next decade. There are exceptions, of course. As lead I will continue to do what I normally do as the co-lead of the NLC—the admin, policy, outreach—plus the engagement of new members interested in setting up projects in their native language. Only, I'll do this now as Lead of the category. (There is no real apparatus for formal vote here….) There might not be any, but I'd be interested to know what other think about both the legitimity of your move, let alone of its legality. Of what move? To assume your duties during a time when you've clearly demonstrated that you are perfectly intent on misusing the privileges and authority of your office? That is not something I have demonstrated, I'm sorry. I'm not using neither my privileges nor the authority of my office to do something wrong. I can say: I'm moving
Re: [native-lang] Change in Lead
Louis, Le Thu, 14 Oct 2010 15:32:28 -0400, Louis Suárez-Potts louis.suarez-po...@oracle.com a écrit : All, I have asked that Charles Schulz recuse himself from his role as lead of the NLC category because of the confusion his new role outside of OpenOffice.org would produce in the minds of contributors and users. I have not received an answer, so I must presume one, that he would act with good grace and recognize the impossibility of his dual roles. I am afraid you are presuming the wrong way. I am sorry not to have given you an answer earlier publicly, but I am not going away. Your takeover of my position is simply not right, does not match any of our guidelines and implies a lot of nebulous things: confusion with my new role? Please define why my new role would confuse the OpenOffice.org community. I think my new role is quite clear; the fact that I will eventually leave, on my own accord and terms should also be clear. Louis, I am not employed by Oracle: you cannot fire me nor anyone like you're trying to do. This is extravagant and outlines a deep misunderstanding of community management. As lead I will continue to do what I normally do as the co-lead of the NLC—the admin, policy, outreach—plus the engagement of new members interested in setting up projects in their native language. Only, I'll do this now as Lead of the category. (There is no real apparatus for formal vote here….) There might not be any, but I'd be interested to know what other think about both the legitimity of your move, let alone of its legality. And there is a fair amount that does need to be done, as OOo is gaining enormous momentum around the world and as you, the NLC projects, are elemental to that! Sorry Louis, no pun intended, but... who are you talking about? This is becoming pathetic. Charles-H. Schulz. best, Louis - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@native-lang.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@native-lang.openoffice.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@native-lang.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@native-lang.openoffice.org
Re: [native-lang] Change in Lead
If I may say something about this, of course I am just a nobody here, but there does not seem to be any problem with people taking part in a main project and its forks or branches. In fact, OOo will benefit from its forks because it represents a good chance for further development. I dont want to be kicked off the project for supporting a branch either, that is a dangerous idea, where will it end? Also, I would like to say that it has been very hard to find translator for ooo, because it is so huge. I would like to suggest that we merge strings with abiword that has been translated already into albanian. Really, It would be nice to have a cut down version of open office that does not have so many strings to translate or reuses strings from other projects. It is very hard to find people for this huge task. thanks, mike On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 11:37 AM, Charles-H. Schulz charles-h.sch...@laposte.net wrote: Louis, Le Thu, 14 Oct 2010 15:32:28 -0400, Louis Suárez-Potts louis.suarez-po...@oracle.com a écrit : All, I have asked that Charles Schulz recuse himself from his role as lead of the NLC category because of the confusion his new role outside of OpenOffice.org would produce in the minds of contributors and users. I have not received an answer, so I must presume one, that he would act with good grace and recognize the impossibility of his dual roles. I am afraid you are presuming the wrong way. I am sorry not to have given you an answer earlier publicly, but I am not going away. Your takeover of my position is simply not right, does not match any of our guidelines and implies a lot of nebulous things: confusion with my new role? Please define why my new role would confuse the OpenOffice.org community. I think my new role is quite clear; the fact that I will eventually leave, on my own accord and terms should also be clear. Louis, I am not employed by Oracle: you cannot fire me nor anyone like you're trying to do. This is extravagant and outlines a deep misunderstanding of community management. As lead I will continue to do what I normally do as the co-lead of the NLC—the admin, policy, outreach—plus the engagement of new members interested in setting up projects in their native language. Only, I'll do this now as Lead of the category. (There is no real apparatus for formal vote here….) There might not be any, but I'd be interested to know what other think about both the legitimity of your move, let alone of its legality. And there is a fair amount that does need to be done, as OOo is gaining enormous momentum around the world and as you, the NLC projects, are elemental to that! Sorry Louis, no pun intended, but... who are you talking about? This is becoming pathetic. Charles-H. Schulz. best, Louis - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@native-lang.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@native-lang.openoffice.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@native-lang.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@native-lang.openoffice.org -- James Michael DuPont Member of Free Libre Open Source Software Kosova and Albania flossk.org flossal.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@native-lang.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@native-lang.openoffice.org
Re: [native-lang] Change in Lead
Hi, Original-Nachricht Von: Mike Dupont jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com An: dev@native-lang.openoffice.org Also, I would like to say that it has been very hard to find translator for ooo, because it is so huge. I would like to suggest that we merge strings with abiword that has been translated already into albanian. Well - if you can ask all the translators of AbiWord to sign the SCA (if policy did not change, then it is still required for OOo localization). regards, André -- GMX DSL Doppel-Flat ab 19,99 euro;/mtl.! Jetzt auch mit gratis Notebook-Flat! http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/dsl - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@native-lang.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@native-lang.openoffice.org
[native-lang] Re: [project leads] Re: [native-lang] Change in Lead
On 10/18/2010 11:37 AM, Charles-H. Schulz wrote: Please define why my new role would confuse the OpenOffice.org community. maybe http://www.openoffice.org/servlets/ReadMsg?list=releasesmsgNo=16165 helps understanding, Martin - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@native-lang.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@native-lang.openoffice.org
Re: [native-lang] Re: [project leads] Re: [native-lang] Change in Lead
Hello Martin, Le Mon, 18 Oct 2010 14:16:55 +0200, Martin Hollmichel martin.hollmic...@oracle.com a écrit : On 10/18/2010 11:37 AM, Charles-H. Schulz wrote: Please define why my new role would confuse the OpenOffice.org community. maybe http://www.openoffice.org/servlets/ReadMsg?list=releasesmsgNo=16165 helps understanding, Actually not that much. What is implied here could be implied just as well for Oracle Open Office. But as Bruce just wrote: Washing us off with the notion of conflict of interest is an interesting way to brush away deep issues pertaining to the OOo project and community. Martin: the community is leaving. It's time to wake up and face these facts (oh I know, there are exceptions, but there are always exceptions). Best, Charles. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@native-lang.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@native-lang.openoffice.org
[native-lang] Re: [project leads] Re: [native-lang] Re: [project leads] Re: [native-lang] Change in Lead
On 18.10.2010, at 15:56, Charles-H. Schulz wrote: Martin: the community is leaving. No no. Charles and co left (or leaving, slowly so the damage to the OOo and the project is bigger...). That's correct. Nothing else. Community didn't left. Community of OpenOffice.org is still here. -- Pavel Janík - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@native-lang.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@native-lang.openoffice.org
Re: [native-lang] Re: [project leads] Re: [native-lang] Re: [project leads] Re: [native-lang] Change in Lead
Le Mon, 18 Oct 2010 16:10:44 +0200, Pavel Janík pa...@janik.cz a écrit : On 18.10.2010, at 15:56, Charles-H. Schulz wrote: Martin: the community is leaving. No no. Charles and co left (or leaving, slowly so the damage to the OOo and the project is bigger...). That's correct. Nothing else. Community didn't left. Community of OpenOffice.org is still here. No No No. The community (most of the NLC, not you Pavel, most of the QA community, probably most of the Marketing volunteers, the independent developers and non Oracle developers (not you Pavel) are moving to the Document Foundation. But I accept the term Charles and co, it's somewhat reducing though :-) best, Charles. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@native-lang.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@native-lang.openoffice.org
[native-lang] Re: [project leads] Re: [native-lang] Re: [project leads] Re: [native-lang] Re: [project leads] Re: [native-lang] Change in Lead
On 10/18/2010 06:50 PM, Christian Lippka wrote: Hi Charles, Am 18.10.2010 17:28, schrieb Charles-H. Schulz: Le Mon, 18 Oct 2010 16:10:44 +0200, Pavel Janíkpa...@janik.cz a écrit : On 18.10.2010, at 15:56, Charles-H. Schulz wrote: Martin: the community is leaving. No no. Charles and co left (or leaving, slowly so the damage to the OOo and the project is bigger...). That's correct. Nothing else. Community didn't left. Community of OpenOffice.org is still here. No No No. The community (most of the NLC, not you Pavel, most of the QA community, probably most of the Marketing volunteers, the independent developers and non Oracle developers (not you Pavel) are moving to the Document Foundation. But I accept the term Charles and co, it's somewhat reducing though :-) Sorry, but this gets confusing. You are saying you are leaving, but you say you also stay. You say you are most of the community (except Oracle and Pavel obviously) but at the same time you leave 'the community' no choice because where should they go if they do not want to leave with you? Since if they just stay here they are at the same position that you are leaving to. Maybe I'm not educated enough in graph theories but I'm not sure where you are, where you want to stay and how you can leave without moving. Is it that you leave but stay at the same place and expect Oracle and Pavel to drift away? Maybe there are drugs that can help me solve this mystery no, it's not worth the effort, just put him into ignore mode since he is only trying to provoke us, to be able to tell the story that we are the bad guys throwing him out the council. Instead of following these fruitless threads we should concentrate on the work we have to do, to address the issues and concerns our community has, the work and feedback we get is indeed invaluable and we would be insane if we would not continue to work on this. But I also have respect of those who decided to go their own way and open alternatives. And most of community people are in the comfortable situation to continue to contribute to both projects for a long time before they might be in the need to decide for one of the branches and let the facts decide. But I expect from the leader of the LO efforts not to play kindergarten but to really lead their fork, otherwise they might end in confinement on a lonely island. Anyway let me formulate a question, where should the part of the pre foundation fork community go that do not like to identify with the foundation? I'm not talking about Oracle people here we will do just fine, I'm talking about Pavel and others. Is it fair from your side to rob them the name 'OpenOffice.org community' ? Why are you not wearing your colors, walk and march under the libre flag, show it proud (as you do on press releases and events). +1 Regards, Christian Martin - To unsubscribe, e-mail: project_leads-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: project_leads-h...@openoffice.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@native-lang.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@native-lang.openoffice.org
Re: [native-lang] Change in Lead
resent because SeaMonkey chose didn't find out the reason by now) the (unsubscribed) OOo mail address as sender (please don't moderate my other mail to the list): Hi Louis, all sorry if I misunderstand your action here, but (if timestamps are true) you posted this message exactly at the time when you have been part of the discussion in the Community Council about possible conflicts of interest for CC members being active in The Document Foundation too. The result of the discussion was to have a chat between Cor Nouws and Martin Hollmichel on Monday and a deadline you insisted on for those CC members to resign until Tuesday. So why can't you wait until Tuesday? Charles has not been able to join the CC meeting. You know if he is well or can reach Internet these days? All, I have asked that Charles Schulz recuse himself from his role as lead of the NLC category because of the confusion his new role outside of OpenOffice.org would produce in the minds of contributors and users. I have not received an answer, so I must presume one, that he would act with good grace and recognize the impossibility of his dual roles. How long did you wait for the answer? As you know from the past weeks, he and all the TDF people don't see any confusion that couldn't be solved by discussing the reasons to create the foundation. All of them feel heavily involved in the OpenOffice.org community as they have been during quite a couple of years. They have started to create a basic infrastructure only for the case that there might not be a chance to discuss the important topic about creating an independent foundation inside the OpenOffice.org community - because this would mean that Oracle would have to share their singular position at the top of the community with others. Unfortunately your action seems to prove them right. You have been heavily involved in creating the Guidelines for Participating in OpenOffice.org http://www.openoffice.org/dev_docs/guidelines.html that include a phrase about removal of project leads: Occasionally, disputes over leadership arise in a project. In these cases, the project members and lead should first seek to amicably resolve the dispute among themselves, via the primary mail list. If discussions among project members (including the lead) do not resolve the situation, the Community Council may be asked to intervene. Any project member, including a Project Lead, is entitled to request that the Community Council adjudicate the dispute. The project member should send a post explaining the desire to age...@council.openoffice.org mailto:age...@council.openoffice.org. The Council will act as soon as is feasible. Project Leads may also be removed by a vote of project members (see below http://www.openoffice.org/dev_docs/guidelines.html#nextpgraph) or, in extraordinary circumstances, by the direct intervention of the Community Council. An extraordinary circumstance would include the dereliction of a lead's duties and responsibilities, as named above, as well as a prolonged absence, defined as lasting more than 3 months without prior notice and without introducing a stand-in. In cases where the Community Council intervenes to remove a Project Lead, it will also arrange for the election of a new Lead, should that be necessary. As Co-Lead of the NLC you are not in the position to decide on such a step alone. Even as Chair of the Community Council it's not your own decision, but needs a consensus among the CC. You are the Oracle employed Community Development Manager - so you want to act in this position (I can't find any website on OOo describing your duties and rights in this position)? You seem to act on your own or (as the vast majority of requests to split The Document Foundation from the OpenOffice.org community comes from Oracle employed community members) on behalf of Oracle. Please prove me wrong by following the established rules you (together with others) created exactly for such unclear situations! I don't want to repeat all the points mentioned by others, just one: You differ the position as Category Lead (Charles as Lead and yourself as Co-Lead) from the Native-Lang Project Leads (Jean-Baptiste Fauré who asked if you want all of them to choose between LibO and OOo) by the representative status of the category leads, setting the policy for the overall category. Charles didn't show any action to change the policy of the Native Language Confederation - so why do you need to remove him at this point of time? On the other hand: Every Native-Lang Project Lead is in a representative position either. So I don't see the real difference between them and the category leads. They are allowed to decide how they want to work. Why can't they decide by whom they want to be led or governed? Best regards Bernhard - To unsubscribe, e-mail:
Re: [native-lang] Change in Lead
Hi André, Op 15-10-2010 19:01, André Schnabel schreef: Hi Louis, Am 15.10.2010 18:05, schrieb Louis Suárez-Potts: I guess then we disagree. For I see OpenOffice.org as quite distinct and different from Oracle, just as it was different from Sun, and just as it differs from any one company. OOo is a community of differences and likes. I think, we agree, that people within Sun / Oracle have been working hard within the last 10 years did contribute massively to OpenOffice.org. At the same time they were working on StarOffice, what now became Oracle Open Office. People inside Sun often have manager role in the company and are project lead at OpenOffice.org - that's quite normal. We lived with this for several years and never discussed about comflict of interests, although all those people worked for a commercial entity that had own goals - and a free software project at the same time. So now, that Charles (and many others) felt, that it would be worth to bring the community into the next decade and work on the idea of an independent foundation .. we remove them from their roles because they have a conflict of interest? Wouldn't it be logical to argue that Oracle staff also has a conflict of interest? I don't think so. Many members of the community have their own commercial goals in contributing to OpenOffice.org. That does not mean there is a conflict of interest. And note that the Oracle employed members still contribute to OpenOffice.org directly, and their interest is that other community members keep doing so as well. In contrast, the TDF have an interest in community members moving over to TDF and start contributing to LibreOffice instead. If I may quote from the TDF announcement: From now on, the OpenOffice.org community will be known as The Document Foundation. ... the former OpenOffice.org community ... I find it quite peculiar that persons behind that statement are so keen to keep a representative position in a community that they effectively proclaimed doesn't exist anymore. -- Vriendelijke groet, Simon Brouwer. | http://nl.openoffice.org | http://www.opentaal.org | - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@native-lang.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@native-lang.openoffice.org
Re: [native-lang] Change in Lead
Hi Jean-Baptiste, On 2010-10-15, at 24:34 , Jean-Baptiste Faure wrote: Le 15/10/2010 03:12, Louis Suarez-Potts a écrit : On 2010-10-14, at 18:11 , Lior Kaplan wrote: On Thu, Oct 14, 2010 at 9:32 PM, Louis Suárez-Potts louis.suarez-po...@oracle.com wrote: All, I have asked that Charles Schulz recuse himself from his role as lead of the NLC category because of the confusion his new role outside of OpenOffice.org would produce in the minds of contributors and users. I have not received an answer, so I must presume one, that he would act with good grace and recognize the impossibility of his dual roles. I think you're wrong on this, as many of us volunteer on more than one projects, and some might have conflicts, but that is the way community works. I do both Debian and Ubuntu work - and I just try to combine what's possible. Charles' use of this list to send a one time mail about LibreOffice was fine from my point of view, as any other mail about collaboration with open source projects. Oracle should be smarter on these issues and not making this an us vs. them situation... Kaplan This is not an Oracle issue. Hi Louis, Of course it is an Oracle issue : there is no conflict of interest between OpenOffice.org Community and the Document Foundation, both work for the development of the best free and open-source productivity suite. I guess then we disagree. For I see OpenOffice.org as quite distinct and different from Oracle, just as it was different from Sun, and just as it differs from any one company. OOo is a community of differences and likes. On the other side we are many to think there is a conflict of interest for Oracle between OpenOffice.org Community and Oracle. Hm. I am not persuaded of that at all, especially as there has been no specification—just rhetoric—on this point. The only good way to solve this conflict is to participate to the project through the Document Foundation as a regular member without no more prerogatives than other members. Again, I disagree. But I do think that we both stand to lose by engaging in fights of this nature. Or do you think our competitor's recent video and ODF / file efforts are purely coincidence? Put another way… divide/conquer. Ring a bell? JBF best louis -- Jean-Baptiste Faure French N-L project Lead http://fr.openoffice.org Seuls des formats ouverts peuvent assurer la pérennité de vos documents. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@native-lang.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@native-lang.openoffice.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@native-lang.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@native-lang.openoffice.org
Re: [native-lang] Change in Lead
Hi Louis, Am 15.10.2010 18:05, schrieb Louis Suárez-Potts: I guess then we disagree. For I see OpenOffice.org as quite distinct and different from Oracle, just as it was different from Sun, and just as it differs from any one company. OOo is a community of differences and likes. I think, we agree, that people within Sun / Oracle have been working hard within the last 10 years did contribute massively to OpenOffice.org. At the same time they were working on StarOffice, what now became Oracle Open Office. People inside Sun often have manager role in the company and are project lead at OpenOffice.org - that's quite normal. We lived with this for several years and never discussed about comflict of interests, although all those people worked for a commercial entity that had own goals - and a free software project at the same time. So now, that Charles (and many others) felt, that it would be worth to bring the community into the next decade and work on the idea of an independent foundation .. we remove them from their roles because they have a conflict of interest? Wouldn't it be logical to argue that Oracle staff also has a conflict of interest? To me this sounds rather nonsense - we all can work on one project. But it is hard to work together, when one party of the game starts to remove people from their roles or excludes them from discussion. Why do mails by some council members need to be moderated to disc...@council? I did not see a request for this, the council did not agree to remove some members and they also did not step back. So how are these actions justified? regards, André - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@native-lang.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@native-lang.openoffice.org
Re: [native-lang] Change in Lead
Hi all, and André, On 2010-10-15, at 13:01 , André Schnabel wrote: Hi Louis, Am 15.10.2010 18:05, schrieb Louis Suárez-Potts: I guess then we disagree. For I see OpenOffice.org as quite distinct and different from Oracle, just as it was different from Sun, and just as it differs from any one company. OOo is a community of differences and likes. I think, we agree, that people within Sun / Oracle have been working hard within the last 10 years did contribute massively to OpenOffice.org. At the same time they were working on StarOffice, what now became Oracle Open Office. People inside Sun often have manager role in the company and are project lead at OpenOffice.org - that's quite normal. We lived with this for several years and never discussed about comflict of interests, although all those people worked for a commercial entity that had own goals - and a free software project at the same time. And, of course, we take great pride in ensuring that the work done for Oracle Open Office (and its predecessor, StarOffice) is not confused with that done for OpenOffice.org. All users and contributors should feel confident that when they work on OpenOffice.org they are in fact working on OpenOffice.org. So now, that Charles (and many others) felt, that it would be worth to bring the community into the next decade and work on the idea of an independent foundation .. we remove them from their roles because they have a conflict of interest? Nope. I privately suggested to Charles to remove himself with grace because of his representational/representative role in the OpenOffice.org Project and Community and because of his even more prominent role in the Document Foundation. Has a lot less to do with any motives you ascribe or intentions he might have than simply facts of role and effect Charles' role could have (and has in some cases, already had) on contributors and users. My interest should be clear here. I want to preserve the integrity of OpenOffice.org for all users and contributors, and to remove the possibility of confusion. I want for contributors and users to the project and code and of the application and its works to understand and without question that they are working on or using OpenOffice.org. This is pretty important and continues a rather long—since its inception, really—effort on my part. And even yours. André, don't you recall the long and involved discussions and arguments we had about putting ads and sponsor icons on the site? Well, how is this real much different from that? In both cases, the issue was advertising a different product. One was, to be sure, commercial—I mean the ads. But that's a relatively minor point. The real point is that OpenOffice.org is about OpenOffice.org and not a different project or product. And we do not want to confuse, just as you did not want to then, and I do not want to now, contributors and users. If you feel I am warping the past to satisfy my present needs, I'd like to state that's not my goal. I really am interested in and concerned about the points I've raised and made, and have been since I started with this project, 13 October 2000. Wouldn't it be logical to argue that Oracle staff also has a conflict of interest? No. The work done on OpenOffice.org by Oracle engineers or by me or others who are not engineers is focused on OpenOffice.org. Our CC governance and project guidelines determine our project actions and limits, and these ensure that our actions are transparent and accountable. If we were advocating and representing a competing product or project, one that seemingly seeks in effect to undermine the project we were supposed to be simultaneously promoting, then that would be a different story. But we are not. To me this sounds rather nonsense - we all can work on one project. I actually used to think so—even prior to two weeks ago. :-/ And it was thus rather a shock to wake up one morning to discover that those I'd been working with and come to respect for their integrity and honesty should overnight, without warning, declare a split. I've lived nearly all my life with cooperatives and similar open systems, in the governing bodies and as a member, first in Berkeley, then here, with OpenOffice.org. There are usually protocols to follow for this sort of thing and these are designed to allow the parties to reach understanding and even, sometimes, agreement. But it is hard to work together, when one party of the game starts to remove people from their roles or excludes them from discussion. Have we done that? I removed Charles b/c of his role, but have not prevented him from using this list for OpenOffice.org discussions, and so have not in any way prevented him or excluded him from so engaging in discussions; indeed, I have specifically asked him for just that. Nor did I do that with Florian. Rather, in both cases, I asked for grace and for the
Re: [native-lang] Change in Lead
Hi Louis, У чет, 14. 10 2010. у 15:32 -0400, Louis Suárez-Potts пише: because of the confusion his new role outside of OpenOffice.org would produce in the minds of contributors and users Do you have an example of such behavior? Are we not jumping to conclusions to soon? impossibility of his dual roles I am not convinced in this. Can you please elaborate? ... I will continue to do what I normally do as the co-lead of the NLC Thank you for your supporting role. It is important to provide a good environment for all native-language projects and I applaud to your efforts. Best regards, Goran Rakic - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@native-lang.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@native-lang.openoffice.org
Re: [native-lang] Change in Lead
On 2010-10-14, at 15:50 , Goran Rakic wrote: Hi Louis, У чет, 14. 10 2010. у 15:32 -0400, Louis Suárez-Potts пише: because of the confusion his new role outside of OpenOffice.org would produce in the minds of contributors and users Do you have an example of such behavior? Are we not jumping to conclusions to soon? As Charles is a founding member of the Document Foundation, I think that's pretty much an example of his new role and equally of the conflict of interest. So, I do not know what you mean by, jumping to conclusions. Rather, it is the facts. impossibility of his dual roles I am not convinced in this. Can you please elaborate? Well, look to: http://native-lang.openoffice.org/servlets/ReadMsg?list=devmsgNo=9294, for instance. That is a misuse of our (OOo's) resources and lists. The OpenOffice.org project is about OpenOffice.org, it is not set up to advertise other projects. I am not, by any means, limiting my friend Charles from working with the OpenOffice.org. I am clarifying things in the leadership area, so that there is not confusion about which project is being represented here and by whom. ... I will continue to do what I normally do as the co-lead of the NLC Thank you for your supporting role. It is important to provide a good environment for all native-language projects and I applaud to your efforts. Thanks. Best regards, Goran Rakic best Louis - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@native-lang.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@native-lang.openoffice.org
Re: [native-lang] Change in Lead
У чет, 14. 10 2010. у 16:03 -0400, Louis Suárez-Potts пише: I think that's pretty much an example of his new role and equally of the conflict of interest I do not think community members should be valued on what they are doing inside other projects. Based on your reply I believe we agree on this. That is a misuse of our (OOo's) resources and lists. The OpenOffice.org project is about OpenOffice.org, it is not set up to advertise other projects. Ok, I see that this can be such example. But I have seen in the past people posting to the mailing list about extensions localization and even some go-oo topics. The mail was well stated and was not using demising OOo in promoting any other efforts. Instead of warning Charles not to do this again and appreciate his contributions to the OpenOffice.org project you are proclaiming your personal decision as final. As far as I know we do not have any process on electing project leads (or do we have?), so I do not have any formal objections. Thanks for sharing, Goran - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@native-lang.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@native-lang.openoffice.org
Re: [native-lang] Change in Lead
Hi Louis, Louis Suárez-Potts wrote (14-10-10 21:32) All, I have asked that Charles Schulz recuse himself from his role as lead of the NLC category because of the confusion his new role outside of OpenOffice.org would produce in the minds of contributors and users. I have not received an answer, so I must presume one, I saw a mail from him yesterday (or before) that he would have no mail access during the next days. Was not specified, but IIRC looked as if it were till this weekend. Cor -- - giving openoffice.org its foundation :: The Document Foundation - - ideas/remarks for the community council? See http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Community_Council - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@native-lang.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@native-lang.openoffice.org
Re: [native-lang] Change in Lead
On Thu, Oct 14, 2010 at 9:32 PM, Louis Suárez-Potts louis.suarez-po...@oracle.com wrote: All, I have asked that Charles Schulz recuse himself from his role as lead of the NLC category because of the confusion his new role outside of OpenOffice.org would produce in the minds of contributors and users. I have not received an answer, so I must presume one, that he would act with good grace and recognize the impossibility of his dual roles. I think you're wrong on this, as many of us volunteer on more than one projects, and some might have conflicts, but that is the way community works. I do both Debian and Ubuntu work - and I just try to combine what's possible. Charles' use of this list to send a one time mail about LibreOffice was fine from my point of view, as any other mail about collaboration with open source projects. Oracle should be smarter on these issues and not making this an us vs. them situation... Kaplan
Re: [native-lang] Change in Lead
Le 14/10/2010 21:32, Louis Suárez-Potts a écrit : All, I have asked that Charles Schulz recuse himself from his role as lead of the NLC category because of the confusion his new role outside of OpenOffice.org would produce in the minds of contributors and users. Ok, so I understand that you want every NLC lead to choose between LibreOffice and OpenOffice.org. I do not think it is the right time to raise this issue. JBF -- Jean-Baptiste Faure French N-L project Lead http://fr.openoffice.org Seuls des formats ouverts peuvent assurer la pérennité de vos documents. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@native-lang.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@native-lang.openoffice.org
Re: [native-lang] Change in Lead
On 2010-10-14, at 18:43 , Jean-Baptiste Faure wrote: Le 14/10/2010 21:32, Louis Suárez-Potts a écrit : All, I have asked that Charles Schulz recuse himself from his role as lead of the NLC category because of the confusion his new role outside of OpenOffice.org would produce in the minds of contributors and users. Ok, so I understand that you want every NLC lead to choose between LibreOffice and OpenOffice.org. I do not think it is the right time to raise this issue. No. I didn't say that or imply that, either. The NLC has two leads—Charles and I. These are category leads, not project leads. Neither of us is a lead of an NLC project. The category lead is a representative office. It differs from other project leads in setting policy for the overall category. I have done this now for about 9 years. One of the policies is that each project is more or less unique. And I have no interest in dictating what you do in yours, as long as you do not violate our guidelines. I do not want for people to feel pressured. I want rather for all users and contributors to feel comfortable that what they are doing when in OOo is for OpenOffice.org and not for some other organization. best Louis\ JBF -- Jean-Baptiste Faure French N-L project Lead http://fr.openoffice.org Seuls des formats ouverts peuvent assurer la pérennité de vos documents. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@native-lang.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@native-lang.openoffice.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@native-lang.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@native-lang.openoffice.org
Re: [native-lang] Change in Lead
On 2010-10-14, at 18:11 , Lior Kaplan wrote: On Thu, Oct 14, 2010 at 9:32 PM, Louis Suárez-Potts louis.suarez-po...@oracle.com wrote: All, I have asked that Charles Schulz recuse himself from his role as lead of the NLC category because of the confusion his new role outside of OpenOffice.org would produce in the minds of contributors and users. I have not received an answer, so I must presume one, that he would act with good grace and recognize the impossibility of his dual roles. I think you're wrong on this, as many of us volunteer on more than one projects, and some might have conflicts, but that is the way community works. I do both Debian and Ubuntu work - and I just try to combine what's possible. Charles' use of this list to send a one time mail about LibreOffice was fine from my point of view, as any other mail about collaboration with open source projects. Oracle should be smarter on these issues and not making this an us vs. them situation... Kaplan This is not an Oracle issue. Rather, it's a longstanding OpenOffice.org policy not to permit the use of our resources for the advocacy of other projects or interests. In the past, we have acted as I did now. The issue at stake is not an us vs. them thing. It's rather, as I mentioned, an effort to ensure that users and contributors are clear as to what they are working on and for. Given the prominence of Charles in the matter, my action here is to be expected, as he is a founding member, I believe, of LibreOffice and the Document Foundation. -louis - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@native-lang.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@native-lang.openoffice.org
[native-lang] Re: [project leads] Re: [native-lang] Change in Lead
On 2010-10-14, at 21:40 , Joey Stanford wrote: This is not an Oracle issue. Rather, it's a longstanding OpenOffice.org policy not to permit the use of our resources for the advocacy of other projects or interests. The issue at stake is not an us vs. them thing. By your own admission, it is. Regardless of whether Charles should or should not have posted, you've just told everyone that even though the code base between OpenOffice and LibreOffice is the same, and many of the people are currently the same, Oracle doesn't want to collaborate but rather dictate. This just adds to the justification of the fork that just happened. I have said that? I'm curious to know when. But I'll save some time. My point is rather that there is both actual and probably confusion and that's a bad thing, for OpenOffice.org. Again, this is not an Oracle thing; it is a longstanding policy of OpenOffice.org's. We also happily accept those working on and affiliated with other projects to work on OpenOffice.org; but we also expect them then, if they become representatives of the project, to do so without the shadow of a conflict of interest. In this case, I believe there is a conflict of interest. Logically, there must be: else, there would not have been a split in the first place. -louis - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@native-lang.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@native-lang.openoffice.org
Re: [native-lang] Change in Lead
Le 15/10/2010 03:12, Louis Suarez-Potts a écrit : On 2010-10-14, at 18:11 , Lior Kaplan wrote: On Thu, Oct 14, 2010 at 9:32 PM, Louis Suárez-Potts louis.suarez-po...@oracle.com wrote: All, I have asked that Charles Schulz recuse himself from his role as lead of the NLC category because of the confusion his new role outside of OpenOffice.org would produce in the minds of contributors and users. I have not received an answer, so I must presume one, that he would act with good grace and recognize the impossibility of his dual roles. I think you're wrong on this, as many of us volunteer on more than one projects, and some might have conflicts, but that is the way community works. I do both Debian and Ubuntu work - and I just try to combine what's possible. Charles' use of this list to send a one time mail about LibreOffice was fine from my point of view, as any other mail about collaboration with open source projects. Oracle should be smarter on these issues and not making this an us vs. them situation... Kaplan This is not an Oracle issue. Hi Louis, Of course it is an Oracle issue : there is no conflict of interest between OpenOffice.org Community and the Document Foundation, both work for the development of the best free and open-source productivity suite. On the other side we are many to think there is a conflict of interest for Oracle between OpenOffice.org Community and Oracle. The only good way to solve this conflict is to participate to the project through the Document Foundation as a regular member without no more prerogatives than other members. JBF -- Jean-Baptiste Faure French N-L project Lead http://fr.openoffice.org Seuls des formats ouverts peuvent assurer la pérennité de vos documents. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@native-lang.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@native-lang.openoffice.org
