Re: What I miss a bit at the project

2013-03-20 Thread Louis Suárez-Potts
Hm. Why use #openoffice.org when, say, #openoffice or the like, would do?
louis

On 20 March 2013 09:28, Raphael Bircher r.birc...@gmx.ch wrote:
 Hi all

 At the old OpenOffice project we have had different IRC Channels. Same were
 more active then others, but we have had a load more activity then now. The
 fact, that not a load Apache Projects use IRC does not mean that we are not
 allowed to use IRC. We are not allowed to make dessisions at the IRC,
 because Apache has clear rouls for dessicion making.

 IRC has many avantage over a ML. You can discouss problemes life. You have
 often much faster a answare. And at same problems. work togeter is more
 afective and make more.

 I realy would like a more active IRC Channel. I propose #dev.openoffice.org
 at freenode as our main channel. I encourage you to jump in too.

 Greetings Raphael

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Re: What I miss a bit at the project

2013-03-20 Thread Joost Andrae

Hi Rafael,

as you know we had several channels on freenode.net

#openoffice.org (user channel)
#dev.openoffice.org (developer channel)
#qa.openoffice.org (qa channel)

+1 to use IRC and not to use tools like Google+ or Facebook or the like...


I realy would like a more active IRC Channel. I propose
#dev.openoffice.org at freenode as our main channel. I encourage you to
jump in too.


Kind regards, Joost


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Re: What I miss a bit at the project

2013-03-20 Thread Rob Weir
On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 9:28 AM, Raphael Bircher r.birc...@gmx.ch wrote:
 Hi all

 At the old OpenOffice project we have had different IRC Channels. Same were
 more active then others, but we have had a load more activity then now. The
 fact, that not a load Apache Projects use IRC does not mean that we are not
 allowed to use IRC. We are not allowed to make dessisions at the IRC,
 because Apache has clear rouls for dessicion making.

 IRC has many avantage over a ML. You can discouss problemes life. You have
 often much faster a answare. And at same problems. work togeter is more
 afective and make more.

 I realy would like a more active IRC Channel. I propose #dev.openoffice.org
 at freenode as our main channel. I encourage you to jump in too.


It would be wonderful if someone could update this wiki page:

http://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/IRC_Communication

And also maybe put a link to it on the website someplace,  maybe even
a link from the navigator on http://openoffice.apache.org, next to
mailing lists.

-Rob


 Greetings Raphael

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Re: What I miss a bit at the project

2013-03-20 Thread Phillip Rhodes
IRC is great and all, and I'm all for having as many channels as
people feel a need for.  Just keep in mind that the ASF approach to
projects is to ensure that decision making is done
in public and very openly.   I think the implication of that is that
most discussion that leads directly to a decision, and definitely any
actual decision making, should happen on the mailing list(s).

That's the way I've always understood it anyway.  Somebody please
correct me if I'm wrong.


Phil

On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 8:28 AM, Raphael Bircher r.birc...@gmx.ch wrote:
 Hi all

 At the old OpenOffice project we have had different IRC Channels. Same were
 more active then others, but we have had a load more activity then now. The
 fact, that not a load Apache Projects use IRC does not mean that we are not
 allowed to use IRC. We are not allowed to make dessisions at the IRC,
 because Apache has clear rouls for dessicion making.

 IRC has many avantage over a ML. You can discouss problemes life. You have
 often much faster a answare. And at same problems. work togeter is more
 afective and make more.

 I realy would like a more active IRC Channel. I propose #dev.openoffice.org
 at freenode as our main channel. I encourage you to jump in too.

 Greetings Raphael

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 For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org


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Re: What I miss a bit at the project

2013-03-20 Thread Rob Weir
On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 11:19 AM, Phillip Rhodes
motley.crue@gmail.com wrote:
 IRC is great and all, and I'm all for having as many channels as
 people feel a need for.  Just keep in mind that the ASF approach to
 projects is to ensure that decision making is done
 in public and very openly.   I think the implication of that is that
 most discussion that leads directly to a decision, and definitely any
 actual decision making, should happen on the mailing list(s).

 That's the way I've always understood it anyway.  Somebody please
 correct me if I'm wrong.


That's the general idea.  But not everything needs discussion.  JFDI
has a place as well.  For example, if the build broke and the
developers meet in IRC to figure out how to fix it, I'd expect them to
just JFDI.  No need to report back to the dev list or discuss further
or to ask permission.  The commit logs will record what was done.

But in general, decisions are not urgent.  They don't need to be made
at short notice.  So the mailing list is more respectful of
participation of project members in many time zones, including many
native languages, and individuals who might need to check a dictionary
occasionally to understand what is said.  The mailing list is
inclusive.  Real-time meetings, in person, via phone, Google Hangouts,
IRC, etc., are tied to a specific time, and so they are less
inclusive.  But they still have a role to play, I think.

-Rob


 Phil

 On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 8:28 AM, Raphael Bircher r.birc...@gmx.ch wrote:
 Hi all

 At the old OpenOffice project we have had different IRC Channels. Same were
 more active then others, but we have had a load more activity then now. The
 fact, that not a load Apache Projects use IRC does not mean that we are not
 allowed to use IRC. We are not allowed to make dessisions at the IRC,
 because Apache has clear rouls for dessicion making.

 IRC has many avantage over a ML. You can discouss problemes life. You have
 often much faster a answare. And at same problems. work togeter is more
 afective and make more.

 I realy would like a more active IRC Channel. I propose #dev.openoffice.org
 at freenode as our main channel. I encourage you to jump in too.

 Greetings Raphael

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 For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org


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Re: What I miss a bit at the project

2013-03-20 Thread Phillip Rhodes
Well said, Rob.  I should have been more explicit in explaining that
when I say decision making I mean big decisions for some value of big.
It's a little bit subjective and will always be a judgment call, but I
think your
example is perfect.  How to fix the broken build can absolutely be
done on IRC.
Deciding to rewrite Calc in Ada, OTOH would not be something you would want
to do on IRC.

Personally I'm looking forward to a move active IRC presence for AOO
people, as I'm a big IRC fan.  I just want to make sure we stay
aligned with the Apache Way.


Phil

On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 10:41 AM, Rob Weir robw...@apache.org wrote:
 On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 11:19 AM, Phillip Rhodes
 motley.crue@gmail.com wrote:
 IRC is great and all, and I'm all for having as many channels as
 people feel a need for.  Just keep in mind that the ASF approach to
 projects is to ensure that decision making is done
 in public and very openly.   I think the implication of that is that
 most discussion that leads directly to a decision, and definitely any
 actual decision making, should happen on the mailing list(s).

 That's the way I've always understood it anyway.  Somebody please
 correct me if I'm wrong.


 That's the general idea.  But not everything needs discussion.  JFDI
 has a place as well.  For example, if the build broke and the
 developers meet in IRC to figure out how to fix it, I'd expect them to
 just JFDI.  No need to report back to the dev list or discuss further
 or to ask permission.  The commit logs will record what was done.

 But in general, decisions are not urgent.  They don't need to be made
 at short notice.  So the mailing list is more respectful of
 participation of project members in many time zones, including many
 native languages, and individuals who might need to check a dictionary
 occasionally to understand what is said.  The mailing list is
 inclusive.  Real-time meetings, in person, via phone, Google Hangouts,
 IRC, etc., are tied to a specific time, and so they are less
 inclusive.  But they still have a role to play, I think.

 -Rob


 Phil

 On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 8:28 AM, Raphael Bircher r.birc...@gmx.ch wrote:
 Hi all

 At the old OpenOffice project we have had different IRC Channels. Same were
 more active then others, but we have had a load more activity then now. The
 fact, that not a load Apache Projects use IRC does not mean that we are not
 allowed to use IRC. We are not allowed to make dessisions at the IRC,
 because Apache has clear rouls for dessicion making.

 IRC has many avantage over a ML. You can discouss problemes life. You have
 often much faster a answare. And at same problems. work togeter is more
 afective and make more.

 I realy would like a more active IRC Channel. I propose #dev.openoffice.org
 at freenode as our main channel. I encourage you to jump in too.

 Greetings Raphael

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 For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org


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RE: What I miss a bit at the project

2013-03-20 Thread Dennis E. Hamilton
+1

There's also the problem of synchronicity.  Living in gmt-0800 (now gmt-0700 
until the end of October), it is very difficult to find an useful window.  And 
if I am not present, I am not aware and have no available record.  The Apach 
lists and procedures recognize the need for asynchronous activity and allowing 
for the different times and availabilities of participants.

I personally do not use IRC much, and even in conference calls I avoid instant 
design as much as possible.  That's my personal dynamic for managing multiple 
activities.  I gather that there are folks who find IRC very useful.  My 
closest to that is some regular, time-blocked Google+ Hangout meetings.  They 
have the advantage of audio (plus video), even though one can use chat in a 
sidebar.

I am not objecting to IRC.  But it is not a panacea.

 - Dennis

-Original Message-
From: Phillip Rhodes [mailto:motley.crue@gmail.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2013 08:19
To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
Subject: Re: What I miss a bit at the project

IRC is great and all, and I'm all for having as many channels as
people feel a need for.  Just keep in mind that the ASF approach to
projects is to ensure that decision making is done
in public and very openly.   I think the implication of that is that
most discussion that leads directly to a decision, and definitely any
actual decision making, should happen on the mailing list(s).

That's the way I've always understood it anyway.  Somebody please
correct me if I'm wrong.


Phil

On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 8:28 AM, Raphael Bircher r.birc...@gmx.ch wrote:
 Hi all

 At the old OpenOffice project we have had different IRC Channels. Same were
 more active then others, but we have had a load more activity then now. The
 fact, that not a load Apache Projects use IRC does not mean that we are not
 allowed to use IRC. We are not allowed to make dessisions at the IRC,
 because Apache has clear rouls for dessicion making.

 IRC has many avantage over a ML. You can discouss problemes life. You have
 often much faster a answare. And at same problems. work togeter is more
 afective and make more.

 I realy would like a more active IRC Channel. I propose #dev.openoffice.org
 at freenode as our main channel. I encourage you to jump in too.

 Greetings Raphael

 -
 To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org
 For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org


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Re: What I miss a bit at the project

2013-03-20 Thread Phillip Rhodes
The lack of available record thing can be addressed - to some extent
- by logging the channel traffic and posting the log somewhere where
it will be publicly available.  Offhand, I'd say this is something we
should do, if we aren't already, to the extent that we use IRC.


Phil

On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 11:11 AM, Dennis E. Hamilton
dennis.hamil...@acm.org wrote:
 +1

 There's also the problem of synchronicity.  Living in gmt-0800 (now gmt-0700 
 until the end of October), it is very difficult to find an useful window.  
 And if I am not present, I am not aware and have no available record.  The 
 Apach lists and procedures recognize the need for asynchronous activity and 
 allowing for the different times and availabilities of participants.

 I personally do not use IRC much, and even in conference calls I avoid 
 instant design as much as possible.  That's my personal dynamic for 
 managing multiple activities.  I gather that there are folks who find IRC 
 very useful.  My closest to that is some regular, time-blocked Google+ 
 Hangout meetings.  They have the advantage of audio (plus video), even though 
 one can use chat in a sidebar.

 I am not objecting to IRC.  But it is not a panacea.

  - Dennis

 -Original Message-
 From: Phillip Rhodes [mailto:motley.crue@gmail.com]
 Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2013 08:19
 To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
 Subject: Re: What I miss a bit at the project

 IRC is great and all, and I'm all for having as many channels as
 people feel a need for.  Just keep in mind that the ASF approach to
 projects is to ensure that decision making is done
 in public and very openly.   I think the implication of that is that
 most discussion that leads directly to a decision, and definitely any
 actual decision making, should happen on the mailing list(s).

 That's the way I've always understood it anyway.  Somebody please
 correct me if I'm wrong.


 Phil

 On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 8:28 AM, Raphael Bircher r.birc...@gmx.ch wrote:
 Hi all

 At the old OpenOffice project we have had different IRC Channels. Same were
 more active then others, but we have had a load more activity then now. The
 fact, that not a load Apache Projects use IRC does not mean that we are not
 allowed to use IRC. We are not allowed to make dessisions at the IRC,
 because Apache has clear rouls for dessicion making.

 IRC has many avantage over a ML. You can discouss problemes life. You have
 often much faster a answare. And at same problems. work togeter is more
 afective and make more.

 I realy would like a more active IRC Channel. I propose #dev.openoffice.org
 at freenode as our main channel. I encourage you to jump in too.

 Greetings Raphael

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Re: What I miss a bit at the project

2013-03-20 Thread Raphael Bircher

Hi Phil

Am 20.03.13 16:19, schrieb Phillip Rhodes:

IRC is great and all, and I'm all for having as many channels as
people feel a need for.  Just keep in mind that the ASF approach to
projects is to ensure that decision making is done
in public and very openly.   I think the implication of that is that
most discussion that leads directly to a decision, and definitely any
actual decision making, should happen on the mailing list(s).
I don't talk about using the IRC as a tool to have meetings to make 
decisions. I talk about daily discussion like questions from newbies and 
questions about the work. E.g: I don't understand what user XY means 
with comment Z in issue X, can samone help me? Or I don't know why 
this is in the Code, has sameone a answare?


This has nothing to do with decision making neiter with a discoussion 
about decision making. For that i want to use IRC channels. But this 
works only if people participate.


That's the way I've always understood it anyway.  Somebody please
correct me if I'm wrong.


Phil

On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 8:28 AM, Raphael Bircher r.birc...@gmx.ch wrote:

Hi all

At the old OpenOffice project we have had different IRC Channels. Same were
more active then others, but we have had a load more activity then now. The
fact, that not a load Apache Projects use IRC does not mean that we are not
allowed to use IRC. We are not allowed to make dessisions at the IRC,
because Apache has clear rouls for dessicion making.

IRC has many avantage over a ML. You can discouss problemes life. You have
often much faster a answare. And at same problems. work togeter is more
afective and make more.

I realy would like a more active IRC Channel. I propose #dev.openoffice.org
at freenode as our main channel. I encourage you to jump in too.

Greetings Raphael



Greetings Raphael


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