Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

Dne 12.3.2013 19:16, Ray Strode napsal(a): Hi, This is an interesting idea, but I don't think plymouth makes it any easier to display CJK & Indic glyphs. (Please someone more technical tell me if I'm wrong here, I vaguely remember this being an issue when we wanted to add a messagse to fedup)

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On 03/13/2013 06:25 AM, Jasper St. Pierre wrote: On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 12:26 AM, Ralf Corsepius - (Nobody explicitly stated this, but) Displaying information geared towards power users by default is intimidating / confusing to less-knowledgeable users." I'd call this to be

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 12:26 AM, Ralf Corsepius wrote: > On 03/13/2013 01:32 AM, Máirín Duffy wrote: > >> On 03/12/2013 07:24 PM, Stephen John Smoogen wrote: >> >>> I am saying this because I agree. To me the proposal (not the original >>> but some point in the the 500 ms boot time "ideal" ) seem

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On 12 March 2013 18:32, Máirín Duffy wrote: > On 03/12/2013 07:24 PM, Stephen John Smoogen wrote: >> I am saying this because I agree. To me the proposal (not the original >> but some point in the the 500 ms boot time "ideal" ) seemed very much >> a welded shut view. And as someone who has to work

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On 03/13/2013 01:32 AM, Máirín Duffy wrote: On 03/12/2013 07:24 PM, Stephen John Smoogen wrote: I am saying this because I agree. To me the proposal (not the original but some point in the the 500 ms boot time "ideal" ) seemed very much a welded shut view. And as someone who has to worked on wel

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On Mar 12, 2013, at 12:19 PM, john.flor...@dart.biz wrote: > > I personally could not care less about the defaults Fedora uses. I've been > overriding them for years. I'm just glad I was able to learn these things > before everything became hidden. Because, naturally, you don't explore, find,

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On Mar 12, 2013, at 12:31 PM, Brian Wheeler wrote: > Fedora isn't windows. Its not OSX. It should never be those things and I'm > grateful for it. > > The boot menu doesn't hurt anything. It has benefits. > > What are the benefits of removing the boot menu? > * Saving upwards of 5 seconds

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On Mar 12, 2013, at 12:23 PM, Reindl Harald wrote: > > and you learn by FACING things I'll leave it up to you to mention this to the very next blind person you encounter. >> Even if I were to see a coherent list of kernels in a list by their date, >> it's unlikely I as a new user would h

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On Tue, 2013-03-12 at 23:23 +0100, Reindl Harald wrote: > > Am 12.03.2013 23:13, schrieb Simo Sorce: > > On Tue, 2013-03-12 at 22:37 +0100, Reindl Harald wrote: > >> > >> Am 12.03.2013 22:34, schrieb Simo Sorce: > >>> I reboot VMs a lot for development, 2 seconds do make a difference > >> > >> Bru

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On 2013-03-12 14:33 (GMT+0100) Lennart Poettering composed: Fast boot times ... increase reliability, and How? applicability. What? -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #21

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

My machine suspends to disk when I close the lid while it is unplugged. So ... Quite often. I would love to see the GRUB menu disabled by default, but I am also content with doing it myself post-install. On Mon 11 March 2013 21:51:01 Steve Clark wrote: > On 03/11/2013 05:04 PM, Lennart Poettering

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

Hi, On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 6:15 PM, Matej Cepl wrote: > And which doesn’t nonsensically short timeout, so that I manage to get > booted sometimes only on third or fourth attempt (yes, I am easily > distracted to do something else while the system boots up; you have > a problem with that?) I have

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On 03/12/2013 08:02 PM, Gianluca Sforna wrote: > However, pretty much every operating system out there has a special > key or combo to activate a boot menu, which is otherwise not > accessible. I don't think Linux users are less capable to find out > what they need to press at boot, when things nee

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On 03/12/2013 07:24 PM, Stephen John Smoogen wrote: > I am saying this because I agree. To me the proposal (not the original > but some point in the the 500 ms boot time "ideal" ) seemed very much > a welded shut view. And as someone who has to worked on welded shut > computers for asthetic reasons

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On 03/12/2013 02:36 PM, Reindl Harald wrote: > sorry, i have no other words for this discussion as braindead Check please! Hall monitors? ~m -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 12:10 AM, Nicolas Mailhot wrote: > The proposal discussed here is not to "keep the hood on the car". > The proposal is to remove any indication there is a hood, and show the > user a seamless surface with no hint it can be opened (or how). However, pretty much every operat

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

l.com/2013/03/12/improving-the-fedora-boot-experience/ > > Máirín, > > The proposal discussed here is not to "keep the hood on the car". > The proposal is to remove any indication there is a hood, and show the > user a seamless surface with no hint it can be opened (or h

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On 03/12/2013 06:10 PM, Nicolas Mailhot wrote: > The proposal discussed here is not to "keep the hood on the car". > The proposal is to remove any indication there is a hood, and show the > user a seamless surface with no hint it can be opened (or how). Reminds me of the time I had to pay like $90

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

Le Mar 12 mars 2013 21:53, Máirín Duffy a écrit : > I tried breaking this thread down into its components and summarizing > the discussion and points brought up thus far. I hope it helps: > > http://blog.linuxgrrl.com/2013/03/12/improving-the-fedora-boot-experience/ Máirín,

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On Tue, 2013-03-12 at 13:17 +0100, Hans de Goede wrote: > Keep in mind that the not show the menu by default plan depends on > the bootspec changes, and that will include a gui tool which will > allow users to select things like show the menu (and then it won't have > a timeout so be easier to get

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

Le Mar 12 mars 2013 19:04, Peter Jones a écrit : > Obviously we need to do a good job of making sure we tolerate failures, > and there are multiple ways to do this - if you reboot N times within M > seconds or somesuch might be a worthwhile heuristic. By definition an heuristic is unreliable. Th

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 05:34:43PM -0400, Simo Sorce wrote: > I reboot VMs a lot for development, 2 seconds do make a difference, it's > a little thing but 99% of the time I do not care about what is shown, > just that the machine is back up as fast as possible. This is also pretty important for g

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On 2013-03-12, 11:45 GMT, Miloslav Trmač wrote: > users _have to_ interact with is solid? Like having a prompt for the > hard disk passphrase that tells the user in text what is necessary, > and actually looks like a text input field? (Have you seen how > confused a newbie is when turning on a Li

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience -> no plymouth!

+1 On Mar 12, 2013 7:37 AM, "Dan Mashal" wrote: > On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 6:06 AM, Reindl Harald > wrote: > > > > > > Am 12.03.2013 13:52, schrieb Nicolas Mailhot: > >> > >> Le Mar 12 mars 2013 13:30, Fabian Deutsch a écrit : > Von: Máirín Duffy > On 03/11/2013 05:13 PM, seth vidal wro

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

Am 12.03.2013 23:13, schrieb Simo Sorce: > On Tue, 2013-03-12 at 22:37 +0100, Reindl Harald wrote: >> >> Am 12.03.2013 22:34, schrieb Simo Sorce: >>> I reboot VMs a lot for development, 2 seconds do make a difference >> >> Bruhahaha >> >> 100 reboots = 200 seconds = 3.3 Minutes more for 100 reboo

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

Am 12.03.2013 22:34, schrieb Simo Sorce: > I reboot VMs a lot for development, 2 seconds do make a difference Bruhahaha 100 reboots = 200 seconds = 3.3 Minutes more for 100 reboots well, i boot probably more VMs you have ever seen BUT if two seconds are really counting you are doing something t

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On Tue, 2013-03-12 at 22:37 +0100, Reindl Harald wrote: > > Am 12.03.2013 22:34, schrieb Simo Sorce: > > I reboot VMs a lot for development, 2 seconds do make a difference > > Bruhahaha > > 100 reboots = 200 seconds = 3.3 Minutes more for 100 reboots > well, i boot probably more VMs you have eve

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On Tue, 2013-03-12 at 09:56 -0400, Steve Clark wrote: > On 03/12/2013 09:33 AM, Lennart Poettering wrote: > > > On Tue, 12.03.13 09:13, Steve Clark (scl...@netwolves.com) wrote: > > > > > How many times do you boot your system each day? 10? Okay thats a > > > whole 20 additional seconds. > > This

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On 03/12/2013 05:15 PM, Jasper St. Pierre wrote: > Sure, and I'm sure the rental company wouldn't want you to pop the hood. Not having a rental car break down on the side of the highway in an unfamiliar city is certainly a luxury. ~m -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://a

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On 12/03/13 11:31 AM, Chris Adams wrote: Here's the other large difference between the typical Linux install and Windows/Mac OS: Linux has choices that can be made at boot. When the other OSes update their equivalent to the kernel, they don't leave multiple kernels installed that can be chosen a

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

Sure, and I'm sure the rental company wouldn't want you to pop the hood. ... wait, what were we saying about bootloaders again? On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 5:12 PM, Máirín Duffy wrote: > On 03/12/2013 05:01 PM, Matthew Miller wrote: > > That, plus whether the lever to open the hood is hidden or app

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On 03/12/2013 05:01 PM, Matthew Miller wrote: > That, plus whether the lever to open the hood is hidden or apparent. I always know where it is on my car, and I never know where it is in a rental. ~m -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/list

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 02:38:32PM -0400, Ryan Lerch wrote: > I know it is a simplification, but to me, the two sides of this > argument are: > * remove the hood of the car, and keep it off in case something goes > wrong, or to entice new drivers to look in there and guess what is > going on. > * k

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

I tried breaking this thread down into its components and summarizing the discussion and points brought up thus far. I hope it helps: http://blog.linuxgrrl.com/2013/03/12/improving-the-fedora-boot-experience/ ~m -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

And how does the proposal here remove functionality or lower maintainability? On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 3:59 PM, Brian Wheeler wrote: > On 03/12/2013 02:35 PM, Tomasz Torcz wrote: > >> On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 02:31:36PM -0400, Brian Wheeler wrote: >> >>> Fedora isn't windows. Its not OSX. It sh

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On 03/12/2013 02:35 PM, Tomasz Torcz wrote: On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 02:31:36PM -0400, Brian Wheeler wrote: Fedora isn't windows. Its not OSX. It should never be those things and I'm grateful for it. We shouldn't ignore developments done in other camps. NIH is bad. Of course it is. What

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 03:21:54PM -0400, Steve Clark wrote: > On 03/12/2013 02:23 PM, Reindl Harald wrote: > >but the better option for us all would be if people with > >this attitude switch to these operating systems instead > >damage slowly what we know as UNIX-LIKE system I *completely* *detes

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On 03/12/2013 02:23 PM, Reindl Harald wrote: Am 12.03.2013 19:03, schrieb Chris Murphy: i learned it many years ago by facing the boot-menu Well you wouldn't learn it today because of how grub2-mkconfig and grubby interact. ah and because things got worser you would make it more worse Yo

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On Tue, 12 Mar 2013 13:51:10 -0400 Peter Jones wrote: ...snip... > So, the problems with that when we implemented it on grub1 were > numerous, but basically they're all of one variety: > > 1) we have to clear the buffer at some point because BIOSes often > leave junk in them > 2) it's unclear t

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 07:36:56PM +0100, Reindl Harald wrote: > hpw do you imagine the system to smell booting the new > one has failed? if it fails it will hopefully not remount > the rootfs RW (if it would be possible at this time) > and write something to disk so that the next reboot knows > "

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On Tue, 12 Mar 2013 19:38:39 +0100 Reindl Harald wrote: > Am 12.03.2013 19:35, schrieb Tomasz Torcz: > > On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 02:31:36PM -0400, Brian Wheeler wrote: > >> Fedora isn't windows. Its not OSX. It should never be those > >> things and I'm grateful for it. > > > > We shouldn't ign

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

Am 12.03.2013 19:35, schrieb Tomasz Torcz: > On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 02:31:36PM -0400, Brian Wheeler wrote: >> Fedora isn't windows. Its not OSX. It should never be those things >> and I'm grateful for it. > > We shouldn't ignore developments done in other camps. NIH is bad nobody says ignore

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

Am 12.03.2013 19:31, schrieb Peter Jones: > On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 07:17:26PM +0100, Reindl Harald wrote: >> >> >> Am 12.03.2013 18:51, schrieb Peter Jones: >>> So I'd really rather have it so that /under normal circumstances/, if the >>> user wants the non-default kernel or parameters, they tel

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

Am 12.03.2013 19:03, schrieb Chris Murphy: >> i learned it many years ago by facing the boot-menu > > > Well you wouldn't learn it today because of how grub2-mkconfig and grubby > interact. ah and because things got worser you would make it more worse > Your first kernel update depends on g

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

Am 12.03.2013 18:51, schrieb Peter Jones: > So I'd really rather have it so that /under normal circumstances/, if the > user wants the non-default kernel or parameters, they tell us so before > rebooting /under normal circumstances/ you do not often need this and if booting fails comepletly afte

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

> Von: Ray Strode > >> This is an interesting idea, but I don't think plymouth makes it any > >> easier to display CJK & Indic glyphs. (Please someone more technical > >> tell me if I'm wrong here, I vaguely remember this being an issue when > >> we wanted to add a messagse to fedup) > > > > I hope

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On 03/12/2013 02:24 PM, Brian Wheeler wrote: On 03/12/2013 02:03 PM, Chris Murphy wrote: On Mar 12, 2013, at 10:35 AM, Reindl Harald wrote: Am 12.03.2013 17:32, schrieb Chris Murphy: On Mar 12, 2013, at 6:02 AM, Jiří Eischmann wrote: New kernels bring a lot of regressions and we don't

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 02:31:36PM -0400, Brian Wheeler wrote: > Fedora isn't windows. Its not OSX. It should never be those things > and I'm grateful for it. We shouldn't ignore developments done in other camps. NIH is bad. > What are the benefits of removing the boot menu? > * Saving upward

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

Fedora isn't windows. Its not OSX. It should never be those things and I'm grateful for it. The boot menu doesn't hurt anything. It has benefits. What are the benefits of removing the boot menu? * Saving upwards of 5 seconds per day! My god, think of the productivity boost! * Its prettier

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

Once upon a time, Alec Leamas said: > I *do* appreciate the attempts to get a clean, graphically consistent > boot experience. And to be frank, I wonder if not WIn 8 (and perhaps > Mac) has got it right. It's just that a Fedora box isn't a Win8 or a > Mac, and the boot UI cant change that. We

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 07:17:26PM +0100, Reindl Harald wrote: > > > Am 12.03.2013 18:51, schrieb Peter Jones: > > So I'd really rather have it so that /under normal circumstances/, if the > > user wants the non-default kernel or parameters, they tell us so before > > rebooting > > /under normal

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On 03/12/2013 02:03 PM, Chris Murphy wrote: On Mar 12, 2013, at 10:35 AM, Reindl Harald wrote: Am 12.03.2013 17:32, schrieb Chris Murphy: On Mar 12, 2013, at 6:02 AM, Jiří Eischmann wrote: New kernels bring a lot of regressions and we don't have enough test coverage to avoid them. The gen

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On Mar 12, 2013, at 12:01 PM, Alec Leamas wrote: > > I *do* appreciate the attempts to get a clean, graphically consistent boot > experience. And to be frank, I wonder if not WIn 8 (and perhaps Mac) has got > it right. It's just that a Fedora box isn't a Win8 or a Mac, and the boot UI > cant

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

> From: Chris Murphy > > On Mar 12, 2013, at 8:45 AM, john.flor...@dart.biz wrote: > > > From: Chris Murphy > > > Kernel update breaks system. User ignorant of hold-down key approach > > > is stuck. Menu at least advertises possibility of alternative. > > > > This logic doesn't work. The user

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

Hi, >> This is an interesting idea, but I don't think plymouth makes it any >> easier to display CJK & Indic glyphs. (Please someone more technical >> tell me if I'm wrong here, I vaguely remember this being an issue when >> we wanted to add a messagse to fedup) > > I hoped that it would be easier

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On Mar 12, 2013, at 10:35 AM, Reindl Harald wrote: > > > Am 12.03.2013 17:32, schrieb Chris Murphy: >> On Mar 12, 2013, at 6:02 AM, Jiří Eischmann wrote: >> >>> New kernels bring a lot of >>> regressions and we don't have enough test coverage to avoid them. The >>> general solution to those

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 05:19:52PM +0100, Nicolas Mailhot wrote: > > Le Mar 12 mars 2013 16:10, Peter Jones a écrit : > > On Mon, Mar 11, 2013 at 12:58:05PM -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > > > The idea would be to have a positive indication from systemd that > > we've gotten to some pre-defined p

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On Tue, 2013-03-12 at 17:19 +0100, Nicolas Mailhot wrote: > Did anyone check the X guys were ok with a setup where they had no longer > any room for error? They heavily depend on users being able to boot on the > previous kernel when there is a driver problem. Yeah, I'm good. - ajax -- devel

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On 2013-03-12 18:30, Chris Murphy wrote: On Mar 12, 2013, at 8:45 AM, john.flor...@dart.biz wrote: > From: Chris Murphy > > > Kernel update breaks system. User ignorant of hold-down key approach > > is stuck. Menu at least advert

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 09:51:14AM -0600, Pete Travis wrote: > For the use cases where it doesn't work, what about dropping a bootloader > config spoke into anaconda, or revealing the appropriate features in > kickstart options? Perhaps probing to test for dual boot to determine if a > brief timeo

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 09:28:28AM -0600, Kevin Fenzi wrote: > On Tue, 12 Mar 2013 11:10:27 -0400 > Peter Jones wrote: > > > Honestly, I'd like to do this anyway - the grub2 gfxterm code seems to > > cause nothing but bugs in later graphics setup. That said, I'd rather > > go back to not having

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On 12 March 2013 09:00, Máirín Duffy wrote: > On 03/12/2013 08:30 AM, Fabian Deutsch wrote: >> What about pulling the message stuff into plymouth and using dracut to >> trigger a reboot which shows the grub menu? Something along the lines: >> "Press ESC to see deatils or 'b' to enter the bootloade

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On Mar 12, 2013, at 8:45 AM, john.flor...@dart.biz wrote: > > From: Chris Murphy > > > Kernel update breaks system. User ignorant of hold-down key approach > > > is stuck. Menu at least advertises possibility of alternative. > > > > This logic doesn't work. The user ignorant of holding down ev

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

Am 12.03.2013 17:32, schrieb Chris Murphy: > On Mar 12, 2013, at 6:02 AM, Jiří Eischmann wrote: > >> New kernels bring a lot of >> regressions and we don't have enough test coverage to avoid them. The >> general solution to those problems is to go back to the last working >> kernel version. Bu

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

If this happens right now, what do users do? They probably take some other computer and Google and find that you have to choose the previous kernel, or edit the kernel cmdline. In the new world, they Google and find that you have to hold Control and choose the previous kernel, or edit the kernel cm

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On Mar 12, 2013, at 6:02 AM, Jiří Eischmann wrote: > New kernels bring a lot of > regressions and we don't have enough test coverage to avoid them. The > general solution to those problems is to go back to the last working > kernel version. But by making it less obvious we make these frequent >

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

Le Mar 12 mars 2013 16:10, Peter Jones a écrit : > On Mon, Mar 11, 2013 at 12:58:05PM -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > The idea would be to have a positive indication from systemd that > we've gotten to some pre-defined point on the previous boot (say, > starting your login manager), and not to sh

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

Le Mar 12 mars 2013 16:09, Gerd Hoffmann a écrit : > Hi, > >>> Keep in mind that the not show the menu by default plan depends on >>> the bootspec changes, and that will include a gui tool which will >>> allow users to select things like show the menu (and then it won't have >>> a timeout so be

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On Mar 12, 2013 9:12 AM, "Peter Jones" wrote: > > On UEFI systems, which is most new desktops: > > 1) we don't need any grub UI whatsoever > 2) we don't need the 5 second timeout > 3) we don't need to indicate to the firmware that we need USB probed > unless it's the device we're booting from. >

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On Mon, Mar 11, 2013 at 05:51:06PM -0400, Máirín Duffy wrote: > On 03/11/2013 05:01 PM, Lennart Poettering wrote: > > By hooking this up to keys people would natrually try, such as shift, > > space, enter, escape, or whatever windows does for their boot menu stuff. > > FWIW Windows uses F8 Window

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On Tue, 12 Mar 2013 11:10:27 -0400 Peter Jones wrote: > Honestly, I'd like to do this anyway - the grub2 gfxterm code seems to > cause nothing but bugs in later graphics setup. That said, I'd rather > go back to not having it at all, but with a different plan than last > time. > > The idea woul

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On Mon, Mar 11, 2013 at 01:43:28PM -0400, Ryan Lerch wrote: > IIRC, in f17, the GRUB screen was not visible. (you could still > press f11 to bring it up if you needed it to). Does anyone know why > this behaviour changed? I think you're thinking of F15. It was a patch we were carrying to grub1,

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

> Von: Máirín Duffy > On 03/12/2013 08:30 AM, Fabian Deutsch wrote: > > What about pulling the message stuff into plymouth and using dracut to > > trigger a reboot which shows the grub menu? Something along the lines: > > "Press ESC to see deatils or 'b' to enter the bootloader" > > This is an in

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On Mon, Mar 11, 2013 at 12:58:05PM -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > Hi, > > I would love to see F19 make a good first impression. The first time you see > something Fedora-related on the screen currently is the graphical grub > screen, followed by the filling-in-Fedora of Plymouth, followed by th

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

Hi, >> Keep in mind that the not show the menu by default plan depends on >> the bootspec changes, and that will include a gui tool which will >> allow users to select things like show the menu (and then it won't have >> a timeout so be easier to get to), or even to directly select the >> kernel

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On 03/12/2013 08:30 AM, Fabian Deutsch wrote: > What about pulling the message stuff into plymouth and using dracut to > trigger a reboot which shows the grub menu? Something along the lines: > "Press ESC to see deatils or 'b' to enter the bootloader" This is an interesting idea, but I don't think

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience -> no plymouth!

Am 12.03.2013 15:37, schrieb Dan Mashal: > On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 6:06 AM, Reindl Harald wrote: >> >> >> Am 12.03.2013 13:52, schrieb Nicolas Mailhot: >>> >>> Le Mar 12 mars 2013 13:30, Fabian Deutsch a écrit : > Von: Máirín Duffy > On 03/11/2013 05:13 PM, seth vidal wrote: >> Is on

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience -> no plymouth!

On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 7:45 AM, Reindl Harald wrote: > > > Am 12.03.2013 15:37, schrieb Dan Mashal: >> On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 6:06 AM, Reindl Harald >> wrote: >>> >>> >>> Am 12.03.2013 13:52, schrieb Nicolas Mailhot: Le Mar 12 mars 2013 13:30, Fabian Deutsch a écrit : >> Von: Mái

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

Hi, first of all, I respect your work very much and am actually very grateful for avahi, pulseaudio and systemd as I was for ifplugd back in the old days when Gentoo was cool. > Fast boot times matter to dual-boot users, they matter to everybdoy who > doesn't run his system 24/7, That is indeed

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

> From: Chris Murphy > > Kernel update breaks system. User ignorant of hold-down key approach > > is stuck. Menu at least advertises possibility of alternative. > > This logic doesn't work. The user ignorant of holding down even > random keys, let alone what will become a common knowledge key, i

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience -> no plymouth!

On 2013-03-13 00:06, Reindl Harald wrote: Am 12.03.2013 13:52, schrieb Nicolas Mailhot: Le Mar 12 mars 2013 13:30, Fabian Deutsch a écrit : Von: Máirín Duffy On 03/11/2013 05:13 PM, seth vidal wrote: Is one line of text really that significant of a problem to present? I'm pretty sure it is

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

Repeating that "fast boot times matter" is just as bogus as saying they don't. The 2 or 3 seconds that's being talked about here has no meaningful impact on anything other than embedded users and they're probably not using grub anyway. Fedora 18 screwed my laptop pretty thoroughly since the A

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience -> no plymouth!

On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 6:06 AM, Reindl Harald wrote: > > > Am 12.03.2013 13:52, schrieb Nicolas Mailhot: >> >> Le Mar 12 mars 2013 13:30, Fabian Deutsch a écrit : Von: Máirín Duffy On 03/11/2013 05:13 PM, seth vidal wrote: > Is one line of text really that significant of a problem t

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 09:56:57AM -0400, Steve Clark wrote: > On 03/12/2013 09:33 AM, Lennart Poettering wrote: > >On Tue, 12.03.13 09:13, Steve Clark (scl...@netwolves.com) wrote: > >You know: *you* might not need fast boot. *Your* systems you might not > >reboot only every other week. *Your* ser

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 08:01:54AM -0400, Nico Kadel-Garcia wrote: > And the main lesson her is "don't clutter the user interface with > useless graphical eye candy". It makes the boot process require > unnecessary system resources. The new Fedora installation setup is > currently a *nightmare*. It

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience -> no plymouth!

Am 12.03.2013 13:52, schrieb Nicolas Mailhot: > > Le Mar 12 mars 2013 13:30, Fabian Deutsch a écrit : >>> Von: Máirín Duffy >>> On 03/11/2013 05:13 PM, seth vidal wrote: Is one line of text really that significant of a problem to present? >>> >>> I'm pretty sure it is because of where we ar

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

Am 12.03.2013 12:04, schrieb drago01: >>> Sorry but that's nonsense. Pretty much all other operating systems do >>> not display the boot loader by default and you see this as a reason >>> for showing it? >>> What kind of weird logic is that? Or do you really think we can have >>> "we do show a sc

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

Am 12.03.2013 09:55, schrieb drago01: > On Mon, Mar 11, 2013 at 10:22 PM, seth vidal > wrote: >> On Mon, 11 Mar 2013 16:18:33 -0500 >> Michael Cronenworth wrote: >> >>> On 03/11/2013 04:13 PM, seth vidal wrote: I want to encourage kids, teenagers, etc to explore the OS. We need them

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

Am 11.03.2013 18:49, schrieb Lennart Poettering: >> - Turn off the graphical grub screen >> >> Even if we are not able to suppress the boot menu entirely, or having >> a clean boot menu like this: >> https://raw.github.com/gnome-design-team/gnome-mockups/master/system-lock-login-boot/bootmenu.png

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On 03/12/2013 09:33 AM, Lennart Poettering wrote: On Tue, 12.03.13 09:13, Steve Clark (scl...@netwolves.com) wrote: How many times do you boot your system each day? 10? Okay thats a whole 20 additional seconds. This is way up on my list of most non-sensical arguments about building OSes, right

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On Tue, 12.03.13 09:13, Steve Clark (scl...@netwolves.com) wrote: > How many times do you boot your system each day? 10? Okay thats a > whole 20 additional seconds. This is way up on my list of most non-sensical arguments about building OSes, right next to "Linux is about choice". This bullshit

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

Le Mar 12 mars 2013 14:16, drago01 a écrit : > On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 2:13 PM, Steve Clark wrote: >> I'd say booting is a more common task then messing with bootloader >> options so lets optimize for the former rather then the later. >> >> How many times do you boot your system each day? 10? Ok

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

> Von: Nicolas Mailhot > Gesendet: 12.03.13 13:52 Uhr > Le Mar 12 mars 2013 13:30, Fabian Deutsch a écrit : > >> Von: Máirín Duffy > >> On 03/11/2013 05:13 PM, seth vidal wrote: > >> > Is one line of text really that significant of a problem to present? > >> > >> I'm pretty sure it is because of w

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 2:13 PM, Steve Clark wrote: > On 03/12/2013 07:04 AM, drago01 wrote: > > On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 11:37 AM, Reindl Harald > wrote: > > Am 12.03.2013 09:55, schrieb drago01: > > On Mon, Mar 11, 2013 at 10:22 PM, seth vidal > wrote: > > On Mon, 11 Mar 2013 16:18:33 -0500 > M

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On 03/12/2013 07:04 AM, drago01 wrote: On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 11:37 AM, Reindl Harald wrote: Am 12.03.2013 09:55, schrieb drago01: On Mon, Mar 11, 2013 at 10:22 PM, seth vidal wrote: On Mon, 11 Mar 2013 16:18:33 -0500 Michael Cronenworth wrote: On 03/11/2013 04:13 PM, seth vidal wrote:

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

On Tue, 12 Mar 2013 13:52:30 +0100 "Nicolas Mailhot" wrote: > > Le Mar 12 mars 2013 13:30, Fabian Deutsch a écrit : > > What about pulling the message stuff into plymouth and using > > dracut to trigger a reboot which shows the grub menu? Something > > along the lines: "Press ESC to see deatils

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

Le Mar 12 mars 2013 13:30, Fabian Deutsch a écrit : >> Von: Máirín Duffy >> On 03/11/2013 05:13 PM, seth vidal wrote: >> > Is one line of text really that significant of a problem to present? >> >> I'm pretty sure it is because of where we are in the process at that >> point. For example, translat

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

Le Mar 12 mars 2013 13:17, Hans de Goede a écrit : > Hi, > > On 03/12/2013 01:02 PM, Jiří Eischmann wrote: >> Allan Day píše v Út 12. 03. 2013 v 11:15 +: >>> Hi all, >>> >>> On the question of how kernel versions should be accessed, I am very >>> much in favour of the position that Chris Murph

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

Le Mar 12 mars 2013 09:55, drago01 a écrit : > On Mon, Mar 11, 2013 at 10:22 PM, seth vidal > wrote: >> On Mon, 11 Mar 2013 16:18:33 -0500 >> Michael Cronenworth wrote: >> >>> On 03/11/2013 04:13 PM, seth vidal wrote: >>> > I want to encourage kids, teenagers, etc to explore the OS. We need >>>

Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience

> Von: Máirín Duffy > On 03/11/2013 05:13 PM, seth vidal wrote: > > Is one line of text really that significant of a problem to present? > > I'm pretty sure it is because of where we are in the process at that > point. For example, translations - can we render Indic or CJK glyphs to > the screen a

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