and then feature that in
Fedora Magazine and schedule a number of test days?
To be clear, I'm not suggesting this as a blocking tactic. The assumption
would be that we'd go ahead with flipping the defaults (as you say above)
for F34 unless the results come back in a way that gives us pause.
ver, one size definitely does not fit all, and our strategy is designed
*precisely* to address that.
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wiki/CoreOS/PRD#Target_Market_.2F_Audience
*
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Server/Product_Requirements_Document#Product_Objectives
help?
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ey (as
well as Red Hat's lawyers) have a different conclusion.
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Fedora Code
those who proposed
> the changes feel obligated to defend them and others become outraged.
Yeah, I don't like that pattern either: that's actually why I'm suggesting
this. Rather than say no to other people, say yes to your own thing.
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ugh the Change process to
propose it, and find an enthusiastic user-base. And I don't mean this in a
snarky way: it seems reasonable enough to me that there's a sustainable
level of interest. If there is, great! If there isn't, well, we also learn
something.
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/ which is quite
interesting and quite long. If you have just time to read one section, the
two paragraphs at the end under "Do Not Rely On This Document As Legal
Advice" seem like the _most_ interesting to me.
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_
like you don't have to use nano. :)
> If you think there room for a grumpy old neckbeard spin I'm sure I can
> find some time to contribute.
I mean... you might want to workshop that name a little bit. :)
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On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 10:47:14PM -0400, Matthew Miller wrote:
> The Council talked about this at our meeting in Minneapolis in 2018. We
> didn't ask FESCo to update the technical policy to reflect the strategic
> plan... but probably we should.
https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/2418
On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 10:32:34AM -0700, John M. Harris Jr wrote:
> > Fine :) https://github.com/gwsw/less/issues/72
> See Markus Larsson's comment on this above...
Yeah, but as Michael points out, that doesn't really apply: it takes up
literally zero additional screen space.
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nneapolis in 2018. We
didn't ask FESCo to update the technical policy to reflect the strategic
plan... but probably we should.
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f y'all who feel strongly about some of these defaults.
I encourage you to make a spin that caters to that experience.
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ng people
professionally and personally and b) um, me.
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Fine :) https://github.com/gwsw/less/issues/72
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anyhow, it doesn't behave
> like openSUSE, it doesn't have the weird mix - for all three tests I
> used (visudo, git, systemctl edit) I got nano.
It is an Ubuntu derivative, with a back-up version which pulls directly from
Debian.
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ituations is generally the behavior I'd want, although I guess the idea is
probably to prompt if a save is wanted but not for a filename. Ah well.)
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To un
ext\: %x.:?pB%pB\%..%t (h for help or q to quit)'
But let's not get ahead of ourselves. :)
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cture.
Well, specifically, we should compare the existing default partitioning
scheme.
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's really recoverability I'm most concerned with. I expect
that if one of these nodes has a metadata corruption that results in an
unbootable system, that's really no big deal in the big scheme of things.
It's a bigger deal to home users. :)
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xample.
Hmmm. Time to switch $PAGER to `most`? :)
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On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 11:15:24AM -0400, Michael Watters wrote:
> Why not zfs?
We cannot include ZFS in Fedora for legal reasons. Additionally, ZFS is not
really intended for the laptop use case.
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s between that
situation and the typical laptop-user case for Fedora desktop systems.
Anything we should consider?
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error rates in the
future. [...]
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> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/BtrfsByDefault
Wow! Is it 2010 already? Time flies! :)
In seriousness: thanks for all of the effort put into this change proposal,
and the impressive list of change owners. I'm following the discussion here
with much interest!
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ommon tool people
run into it with. "crontab -e" is another example off the top of my head.
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ter says
"worthy of contempt"). It's easy for these things to be misread or taken out
of context and better to, yeah, stick to being nice. The negative language
doesn't really add anything even as a joke.
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_
st
you make a spin or remix that has all of defaults _you_ want. Make it appeal
to the specific developer audience you have in mind with the things that
make sense to you, and see who else is interested in collaborating on it.
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On Fri, Jun 12, 2020 at 02:10:44PM +0200, Emmanuel Seyman wrote:
> I would propose that we keep discussions not related to the development
> of Fedora off the devel@ mailing-list.
Yeah. This is off-topic.
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ack and consider, and I appreciate you doing so!
Thanks for your passion, and let's continue to figure out how to solve these
often frustrating challenges together.
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tream community.
The problem with that is that it's too easily confused with the actual
upstream project's source control. In most (or all?) cases here, we're
talking about a layer in between, right?
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and testing in Red Hat DevOps,
> contributing to projects like OSBS and Factory 2.0. Before Red Hat I
> was developing train control systems (implementing ETCS).
That's very cool!
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devel mai
or respective dist-git
> repositories? The idea is that you would work in the source-git repo
> and then let packit handle synchronization with a respective dist-git
> repo. Our aim is to provide the contribution experience you have in
... yeah, I'd be very interested in trying this.
red! Glad to have you here!
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fedora 32 gnome on a Lenovo Thinkpad X1 carbon 6th gen
It's going to be added where the hardware is friendly. I think unfortunately
that generation is out of luck.
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ult, they were invisible.
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at branching
> time.
Thanks Miroslav! Much appreciated!
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Fedora C
t's okay to do just that. We have other offerings for other
use-cases (like the media server you mentioned).
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and grab it from:
* https://getfedora.org/
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and grab it from:
* https://getfedora.org/
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; regression, so I consider getting a security update out quickly to be much
> more important.
See also earlier discussion here: https://pagure.io/releng/issue/5886
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asure! But I
can see a case for wanting lack of configuration to be a failure rather than
working but non-obviously not in the way you expected.
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ace for that.
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Not the Pope
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hift to e notation!)
I agree that when we make decisions in Fedora, we need to consider direct
users of the OS we make first. But we are also making a system we _want_ to
be useful as an upstream, and taking downstream needs into account is the
only way we can succeed at that.
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to the Fedora Project and community.
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ELN macro calls in my rawhide specs,
> that evaluate to nothing for Fedora. *declarative* syntax is a lot less
> scary maintenance-wise than free-form spec programming.
This seems like a great suggestion in general and the direction we should be
going anyway.
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mong many in the list.
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On Fri, Apr 03, 2020 at 09:42:12AM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> He is the FPL, he is not the Pope.
I think we can all agree that this is for the best. :)
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orically
> > under-invested).
> And has that process been synchronized with this "git forge decision"
> process?
Not specifically, no.
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ings like CoreOS, I want it to be
natural to do it *here* as part of Fedora.
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Fedora
ing the web, design, and marketing teams and
building those up so we don't have to be directly dependent on Red Hat in
those areas (where, let's face it, Red Hat has historically under-invested).
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But, who would these other sponsors be?
Red Hat's annual investment in Fedora is in the many millions of dollars.
Someone else with that kind of money to invest probably has other plans.
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roject. It's okay for us to be the integrator of
tooling rather than the owner and creator of it all.
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m
structure, not in what we want to do as a project.
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jects are not held to this standard, not to
"gotcha" Michael or anyone else for their contributions elsewhere.
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> so at least that part certainly *should* have been, if we assume it's
> reasonable to expect those making this decision to be paying attention
> to this list.
I did forward that on to Leigh and Jim.
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If Fedora starts using GitLab EE for its dist-git, for example,
> and GitLab dies tomorrow, then we have a very big problem.
Bigger scale, but isn't it basically the same problem?
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de
or what it's worth, Red Hat has committed to an official three year cadence,
so you don't need to assume: it's 2022.
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did communicate as the very top line of our gathered requirements that
open source is essential to our community and central to our feedback. I'm
not trying to be soft on that. Let's just not do purity-test level
assessments and instead focus on our goals.
--
re -- I've talked with them before about other things -- and I think
we'll be able to navigate anything that comes up.
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e a
longer process would have helped, ultimately, I have a lot of trust for
the people who work on CPE. Let's help them figure out how to best help
all of us.
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lly very perplexing deep-knowledge territory. So, we
decided to create a separated docs site.
Now, it very well may be that the anaconda docs shouldn't be part of quick
docs, but if it's meant to be user-facing, somewhere on the docs site would
be a good.
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iginal code-of-conduct suspension notice you received. A
public post is not necessary.
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Fedor
e day before.
Hi Troy. Can you let me know if the modular-versions proposal is on an
upcoming agenda?
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d be fine also.
These should all be fine. In the case of 2, it's just now another alternate
non-default stream. It would only override if explicitly asked for.
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efix also makes it immediately obvious that a stream is EPEL and not
product or supported.
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This all sounds great. I'd also love for there to be a standard way of
tagging specific git commit log messages as meant for user consumption, and
use that to prepopulate the bodhi release notes field (with an eventual eye
towards making this the single source of Fedora package change information).
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hello, Chromium!), we
probably want to find some room for it in Fedora somehow. But we absolutely
need to be sure about licenses.
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4:00 is the end of the day (= equivalent to
> 00:00 of the following day).
>
> Whereas with 12h clocks, I think midnight is 12:00 PM, and noon is 12:00
> AM? Which is still confusing me after having known about it for decades.
It's the opposite, which furthers your point. :)
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is
explicitly enabled.
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is functionally possible.
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way the perl and some
> other modules do.
No, this is not the case. If the module isn't enabled its packages will just
be ignored. It's only if you enable the module that you get the RPMs from
that module.
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.)
What do you think?
*
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/EPEL/GuidelinesAndPolicies#Packaging_Guidelines_and_Policies_for_EPEL
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ng quay.io now that that's open
source.
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in the form of a user story?
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at there
> were some "non-technical blockers" **two years ago**. So I assumed
> that, at this point, this was completely dead. If not, we're already
> late, very late.
Hopefully some changes in WSL2 can let us move forward.
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t; Fedora users are quite as vocal, but the engineering in Fedora is
> solid. Sure there are problems occasionally, but the rate of change
> and the usability of Fedora as a daily driver and for some server
> workloads is pretty impressive.
Thanks -- I appreciate the input!
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ackaged changes.
> And the work we propose doesn't really fit in this framework. I'm
> going to start a separate thread on it.
I'm in favor of Changes being wider rather than inventing a parallel process
for non-packaging changes.
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See the thread on the Council Discuss mailing list:
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/council-discuss@lists.fedoraproje
ct.org/message/JD65B2SP3WWEWUCZ5HWVQGXJNPJ6HTLC/
(To avoid fragmentation, please reply to that thread rather than here.
Thanks!)
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n they do
> involve rpm fixing rpm will be easier than rewriting it from scratch).
I can get behind this approach.
To make it work we need to look at the things where 1) upstreams are not
happy and 2) we can provide value for both dev and ops.
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-- and I've lived in the shade of RH since the RHL4.0
> days. Why do we have to guess at this? I know oVirt isn't a Fedora
> project, it's a RH one, but this should be one upstream that's the
Yeah, this is a good suggestion and I'm not sure why it's not already the
case!
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On Tue, Jan 07, 2020 at 06:48:05PM +0100, Nicolas Mailhot via devel wrote:
> IBM could waste 10 times the money in marketing with less results, “Big
> Blue spending loads of cash” is not a coverage-worthy story.
Although to be clear if anyone from IBM is reading: _we'll take it_. :)
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o be successful as a community, we can't count on Red
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not
> > something cheap or easy to replicate.
> If anyone has a handy generous multi-millionaire up their sleeve,
> please call Matt. :)
True! Phone lines are standing by!
I do think that we can do some things to make a difference short of that.
But it _is_ an uphill, underfunde
on for their use cases.
I agree that's a challenge. Any ideas for how to address it and change these
perceptions?
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things like how to do branding.
Yes, I think this democratization is key. Having an easy, straightforward
(and well-documented!) interface is more important than having a flashy one.
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expect in this case these would use modularity to make
variant streams.
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ps://github.com/osbuild/osbuild
> https://github.com/osbuild/osbuild-composer
That sounds like at least a component of what I'm interested in!
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e policy to be a little more
humane _is_ the best course. I got a complaint about a notice sent on
Christmas -- I know not everyone celebrates that (and for some of us, hey,
time off to do Fedora stuff!), but I think it wouldn't hurt to have some
wording requesting people enforcing the policy to r
On Mon, Jan 06, 2020 at 04:22:57PM -0500, Breno Brand Fernandes wrote:
> I expect to consistently contribute to the Fedora community.
> It is very nice to get to know such a community with so many brilliant
> people.
Hi Breno! Welcome to Fedora!
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https://www.xkcd.com/2249/
(Also, on a more personal note: I've been SUPER swamped with email. If you
sent me something over the holiday break and I didn't answer, it's not you,
it's me. If I dropped something important, please send again. I'm declaring
email bankrupcy and starting the year fresh.)
open-source projects writen in Rust and they are also
> available in Copr.
> Also I maintain few other packages, which also available in Copr. For
> instance, it's a libinput-gestures and MultiMC.
Hi! Welcome to Fedora!
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ia idrac (or whatever brand
equivalent), not literally a burned physical DVD?
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Fed
fresh blood into the project and eventually stagnate like Debian has.
Yes, absolutely. And of course, ultimately that's what we _want_
modularity to do, both for users and contributors. (See again the list
of goals.)
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iring decisions do not have anything to
do with the desktop environment that the person in question uses or
works on.
(It's true that I switched from Xfce to GNOME after I got this job, but
it was of my own free will, I swear.)
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izens"? No, of course not
— they are part of the one single class of Fedora contributors.
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.
So, yeah, this definitely counts for something!
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ge for
each module.
And I also think we're missing a lot of the automation that came as
requirements out of the "Prototype Phase".
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Objectives/Fedora_Modularization,_Prototype_Phase
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happening put in
exactly the kind of effort I'm talking about here.
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ora 33 after the first Python 3.9 alpha (expected in ~2
> weeks).
>
Very cool! Thanks!
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Fedo
ers to attend to, so I literally do
not know when I have time for a call. That doesn't mean I don't want to
talk, it's just... kind of crazy.
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