Re: proposed change to FESCo voting rules
On Fri, 2023-07-21 at 08:59 -0400, Ben Cotton wrote: > > To be fully transparent, the reason I said that at all was to mitigate > potential "FESCo voting rules are changing in the next big step > towards IBM's destruction of all things community" FUD. It's been a > silly enough time to be online the last few months already. Whew, well, at least we managed to slip one through there, eh, fellow minions? Now, I'd just better be careful not to send this to any public lists... -- Adam Williamson (he/him/his) Evil IBM Empire An Underground Volcano, Somewhere ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: proposed change to FESCo voting rules
On Fri, Jul 21, 2023 at 2:03 AM Kevin Kofler via devel wrote: > > Ben Cotton wrote: > > This will be helpful to people who aren't regularly involved in FESCo > > votes. If that's you: the proposal presented here is largely > > clarification. There's not much in the way of substance change. > > Actually, it changes existing practice in that it changes the meaning of the > "0" vote. Thanks for pointing that out. You're right, that part does represent a change in substance, but in a relatively rare case, which is why I said "not much". (I have a sense that the current rule wasn't consistently applied during my time as FPgM, but I don't want to do the archaeology to find out.) To be fully transparent, the reason I said that at all was to mitigate potential "FESCo voting rules are changing in the next big step towards IBM's destruction of all things community" FUD. It's been a silly enough time to be online the last few months already. -- Ben Cotton (he/him) TZ=America/Indiana/Indianapolis https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Bcotton ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: proposed change to FESCo voting rules
On Fri, Jul 21, 2023 at 08:02:53AM +0200, Kevin Kofler via devel wrote: > Ben Cotton wrote: > > This will be helpful to people who aren't regularly involved in FESCo > > votes. If that's you: the proposal presented here is largely > > clarification. There's not much in the way of substance change. > > Actually, it changes existing practice in that it changes the meaning of the > "0" vote. Previously, "0" was basically treated the same as "-1" in that a > majority required more than half of FESCo to vote "+1", no matter how many > people voted "0". Yes, that actually was the main motiviation for those changes. It was heavily discussed _before_ this proposal was filed, so that discussion actually isn't visible in the ticket. I probably should have included this background when sending the mail yesterday, but it was late and I was tired ;) The background is that voting "0" is effectively equivalent to voting "-1", because a proposal passes if it gets the absolute majority of possible votes, i.e. 5 out of 9. But FESCo members often would like to just not vote on a particular topic, because they don't have enough insight or have mixed feelings, and would be happy to let other people who have clear opinions make the decision. In the new rules it is possible to meaningfully abstain from a vote (*). There is also a second change in the proposal: votes made in the ticket would "transfer" to the meeting. Right now we have the problem that we may have multiple +1 votes in the ticket, but if the topic is discussed in the meeting, only votes cast in the meeting count. If everybody was always present, this wouldn't be a problem. But quite often we don't have full attendance, and then we get a different subset of voters in the meeting. The worst variant of this is when there's an absolute majority in favour, but not enough participate in the meeting, and the proposal would be rejected (**). (*) Example: people vote +1,+1,+1,+1,-1,0,0,0,0. In the old rules: rejected. In the new rules: accepted. (**) Example: people vote in the ticket: +1,+1,+1,+1,+1,+1,+1,-1, and then in the meeting with less attendees: +1,+1,+1,+1,-1. In the old rules: rejected. In the new rules: accepted. Zbyszek ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: proposed change to FESCo voting rules
Ben Cotton wrote: > This will be helpful to people who aren't regularly involved in FESCo > votes. If that's you: the proposal presented here is largely > clarification. There's not much in the way of substance change. Actually, it changes existing practice in that it changes the meaning of the "0" vote. Previously, "0" was basically treated the same as "-1" in that a majority required more than half of FESCo to vote "+1", no matter how many people voted "0". Kevin Kofler ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: proposed change to FESCo voting rules
On Thu, Jul 20, 2023 at 3:46 PM Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek wrote: > > Stephen Gallagher proposed a change to FESCo voting rules [1]. This will be helpful to people who aren't regularly involved in FESCo votes. If that's you: the proposal presented here is largely clarification. There's not much in the way of substance change. I did notice that the "fast track" voting mechanism fell out. I think that's worth preserving. Also, the proposal says "eligible voters" a lot. Let's replace it with "FESCo members" to make it more clear that it's not a wide-open vote. If you really want, you can say "eligible FESCo members", but there's not been any case that I'm aware of where a FESCo member was ineligible to vote on something, so adding that word inserts unnecessary complexity. > Change ticket is assumed to be a a formal proposal upon creation. Duplicate "a" > An official vote in a ticket must be one of +1, -1 as defined herein: I suggest striking "as defined herein" for simplicity. Also you may want to include 0 in the sentence since it's in the list that follows. > At the end of one week, if a ticket has at least 3 votes of +1 and no > votes of -1, it is approved and may proceed with implementation. If > there is at least one -1 vote, the ticket must be added to the > upcoming meeting agenda and subject to the Meeting Votes rules. I'd make that "…and is subject…" > A proposal must achieve a majority (at least 51%) of +1 votes from > eligible voters. Votes must be one of +1, 0 or -1 as defined herein: s/as defined herein/g :-) > +1 I am in favor of the proposal as currently written. > > 0 I am electing to remove myself from the list of eligible > voters. This reduces the denominator of the fraction required to > achieve the 51% majority. In effect, I am agreeing to vote with > the remaining majority, whatever they decide. > > -1 I am opposed to the proposal as currently written. This largely duplicates the definitions for in-ticket votes. It might be better to just refer to that and add the special meaning of 0. Something like: A proposal must achieve a majority (at least 51%) of +1 votes from eligible voters. Votes must be one of +1, 0 or -1 as described in Ticket votes. In a meeting vote, a vote of 0 reduces the denominator of the fraction required to achieve the 51% majority. In effect, it says "I am agreeing to vote with the remaining majority, whatever they decide." -- Ben Cotton (he/him) TZ=America/Indiana/Indianapolis https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Bcotton ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
proposed change to FESCo voting rules
Hi, Stephen Gallagher proposed a change to FESCo voting rules [1]. The latest draft: --&<- Ticket Votes (Preferred) Once a formal proposal is made in a ticket, voting will proceed. A Change ticket is assumed to be a a formal proposal upon creation. An official vote in a ticket must be one of +1, -1 as defined herein: +1 — I am in favor of the proposal as currently written. 0 — I am electing to remove myself from the list of eligible voters. This has no effect unless the ticket votes are used for a meeting vote. -1 — I am opposed to the proposal as currently written. This topic must be discussed live in a meeting. At the end of one week, if a ticket has at least 3 votes of +1 and no votes of -1, it is approved and may proceed with implementation. If there is at least one -1 vote, the ticket must be added to the upcoming meeting agenda and subject to the Meeting Votes rules. If there are insufficient +1 votes at the end of one week, one additional week will be granted. At the end of this period, if there is at least one +1 vote and no votes of -1, the proposal is approved. If there is at least one -1 vote, the ticket must be added to the upcoming meeting agenda and subject to the Meeting Votes rules. If there are no votes at all, the proposal is considered rejected and the status quo will be maintained. The submitter may at this time make a new proposal which will restart this process. Meeting votes At the meeting, a reasonable amount of time must be given for discussion. Once a proposal is made in the chat, the vote will be tallied as follows: A proposal must achieve a majority (at least 51%) of +1 votes from eligible voters. Votes must be one of +1, 0 or -1 as defined herein: +1 I am in favor of the proposal as currently written. 0 I am electing to remove myself from the list of eligible voters. This reduces the denominator of the fraction required to achieve the 51% majority. In effect, I am agreeing to vote with the remaining majority, whatever they decide. -1 I am opposed to the proposal as currently written. Any eligible voter that cannot attend the meeting is assumed to retain any vote that they have made in the ticket prior to the meeting. Note that this does not apply to new proposals made in the meeting, with the exception of simple clarification edits. If a vote in the meeting achieves a 51% majority in favor of a proposal (accounting for any explicit 0 votes), that proposal is accepted. If a vote in the meeting achieves a 51% majority against a proposal (accounting for any explicit 0 votes), that proposal is rejected. If a proposal in a meeting fails to achieve a majority either for or against, the FESCo members present must either: Present a new proposal, restarting the meeting voting process. Return the proposal to the ticket, restarting the ticket voting process above. All votes made in the meeting will be transferred to the ticket (Note: negative votes recorded in this way do trigger discussion at the next meeting as normal). Once FESCo agrees to return the proposal to the ticket, all discussion in the current meeting on the topic is ended until that ticket vote has concluded with either a decision or is transferred to another meeting. -->&- Please comment here or in the ticket. [1] https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/3038 Zbyszek, on half of FESCo ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
